[nuforcebob]

Friends,

There seems to be a bit of confusion (and maybe a bit of ire) regarding the issues surrounding the upgrade path from Ref-18 to Ref-20.  In order to clarify the issue, a little review of history is in order.

First, any time a manufacturer posts musings on a public forum about development of a potential new product, it's best to take such comments with a small grain of salt.  As we all know, things tend to change a bit along the way whenever you plan something, and that's true whether you are an individual or a company.  Often times the product is never actually developed, or if it is, the final version is frequently different to some degree from that which was originally envisioned.  One often finds the costs are prohibitive and they drop the project, or they get "lucky" and find a way to make the product even better than intended.

Well, that's pretty much what happened with the Ref-20.  We had originally envisioned it as being a "tricked out" Ref-18 that would incorporate all of the refinements that we could squeeze into the chassis.  Since no "high cost" changes were anticipated, we felt that we could absorb the additional cost incurred to provide upgrades to existing Ref-18 owners "free of charge."

However, all along calls for a higher-power design kept coming in from end users and dealers, such that eventually it became obvious that the Ref-20 would be the ideal platform to incorporate this request.  Hindsight being 20/20, we probably should have planned that the Ref-20 would be a higher-power design from the beginning.  Early on though, we just didn't think there would be sufficient demand to justify the higher price that increased power would necessarily incur.  It looks like we were wrong though as since word has leaked out from CES 2012, we've had many more inquiries than we had anticipated.

The upshot is that increasing power from 175WRMS@ 8-Ohms of the Ref-18 to 360WRMS@ 8-Ohms of the Ref-20 incurs a significant cost increase on our end.  Therefore, it is unfortunate that we will not be able to offer the upgrade to existing Ref-18 owners free of charge.

We sincerely apologize for any confusion or frustration this may have caused.  Nevertheless, we felt that a truly meaningful increase of power at a modest cost would represent more value to the majority of customers than a simpler "refinement" of the design at no charge to a handful.

Just so you know, we are sincerely sorry for any inconvenience or misunderstanding this has caused.  In order to "put our money where our mouth is," we do therefore intend to provide the upgrade at a discount to existing Ref-18 owners when it becomes available.  If interested and you wish to inquire regarding the timeline and cost details, just send and e-mail to:

salesteam@nuforce.com

Staff will get back to you ASAP and try to answer any questions that you may have.  Thanks for your understanding, have a great day and…

Take care,
-Bob

[worldcat]

Maybe Nuforce should wait until V4 comes out to release the ref20.  I am sure your only about 18 months out from releasing it.

[worldcat]

So your saying the ref 20 will have 360 in 8 ohms?  What will it be into 4?  I did not think it would have that much. Will 20 be in same chasssie.

[hifial]

OK nuforcebob, lets discuss some history.

 Several times nuforce was asked by several members when a Ref 20 will be released and Nuforce said there would be no Ref 20 that the Ref 18 was as good as it got and they did not see any possible breakthroughs for years to come.
 When the same members asked about any upgrades to the Ref 18 they pretty much got the same answer.
 This was all happening over a period of months, the later half of 2011.
 I even asked my dealer before I bought my Ref 18, because, as I said to him, "if Nuforce is releasing a Ref 20 or an upgrade to the Ref18 in several months, I would wait till then and get the most recent tech". I had him call Nuforce and confirm that there was nothing in the works.
 If I had my Ref 18 for a couple of years I would understand and I realize the Ref 18 has been out awhile but not for the owners that asked and were told " no, if at all, it would be years, it would cost way too much and not be a big enough of an improvement to justify the price".

 I really think Nuforce needs to step up and not just give a discount to all Ref 18 owners from the past but also give extra consideration to owners who bought in the last six months of 2011.

   

[mt]

I am not a Ref 18 owner and do not know the price of the upgrade, but I think this past message is a little silly.  Of course I am a little empathetic with the frustration you may feel due to all the requests, but you got to use a good product while the better one was not available and will be getting a discount that are not offered to new buyers of the better one after it becomes available.  How many companies do that?

[hifial]

mt, I think you miss my point. I and others just a few months prior to the announcement at CES of the REF 20 were specifically told that NO such product  was forth coming. So based on that, I bought the Ref 18 instead of waiting a matter of a few months and purchasing a NEW Ref 20, and not an upgraded Ref 18. I was more then happy to live with a great sounding amp that I was using at the time for a few months more.

I understand that the Ref 20 costs more but I and others should have had the choice of when and how we would spend our money.

If Nuforce had told us that they "might" be coming out with the Ref 20 or an upgrade to the Ref 18 and then I decided not to wait I would not be posting.

It may surprise you that there are more then a few companies that you can upgrade or trade up. Just a few. Bryston, Theta Digital, PS Audio, Synergistic Research, MIT, Running Springs Audio, Halcro, Wadia etc. And I bought my Ref 18 knowing that I could upgrade it but, 1, not just in a few months, 2, I would have bought a Ref 20 instead of the 18 so as to not find out down the road that my original Ref 18 could get the latest upgrade but the original Ref would be able to. 

 

[rustydoglim]

I will be the best person to put a rest to all these questions. There were some challenges developing the power supply and increasing the amp board power without sacrificing sound quality. So that might be the source of conflicting messages (yes, it sounded good, oops, found problems, ok it really sounded good, etc...) of whether there is going to be a Ref 20, so what should it be.  I should have been more careful with my communication and it is all my fault.

First of all, Ref 18 and Ref 20 are going to co-exist for a long time to come. The price difference is the result of higher power for the amp board as well as power supply. Many people do not need Ref 20 and would prefer not to pay for the extra cost.

If you have purchased Ref 18, we will be glad to offer an upgrade to Ref 20 for the difference in price, when Ref 20 is available.  Ref 20 is not going to replace Ref 18, that's probably the source of the confusion.  If you are in the US, we will gladly pay for the shipping cost both ways. For international customers, you would have to discuss with the distributor (and I am sure they will be accommodating).

With regards to V4, we have not even started the project it. It is very challenging to improve the sound quality (Ref 18 is extremely good!) while trying to re-engineer the design. We might fix something but break another thing. So this effort is going to take more than 2 years.

Jason

[worldcat]

It is good to hear that it will be longer than 2 years before v4.  I dont think anyone should upgrade if v4 comes out within a year.  What will the sound difference be between ref 10 and ref 18??