High sensitivity, open baffle, single ended lovers dream speaker...

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poseidonsvoice

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The bass response is as good as anything I have ever heard. It maybe better than anything I have ever heard. It plays really low, tight, and clean very much like an LS-9 but has an advantage in that it just doesn't load the room. It hits, it hits hard, and then it's over. There is no delayed decay of room pressure.


Welcome to open baffle bass. This is what I heard with Linkwitz' Orions and John K's Nao dipoles. The more dipole bass systems that were in the room, the better. However, with servo control this might solve that problem to an extent. I do expect those systems with more piston area to have a more dynamic low end. When it comes to low frequency tuning, dipoles have that great stop and start quality.

Great review, thanks.

Anand.

Danny Richie

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Your speakers configuration is similar to Seigfried Linkwitz and his Orion open baffles, except that his system is heavily equalized, is your speakers' characteristics similar to that Orion? I have not heard the Orion.

I have heard the Orion, and while there are some things similar about them they are very different speakers in many other ways.

For one thing this speaker also has about 12db higher sensitivity than the Orion. 

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Do you think after you have finalised these speakers they can be considered as a pair of reference speakers for playing music 2 way at home?

Very much so.

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At the end of the day these speakers are not cheap just considering the costs of speakers drivers alone.


Yes, but a fully finished pair ready for play is about half the price of an Orion. The Orion requires a minimum of six channels of amplification. This one requires only two. So you not only need 1/3 as many channels of amplification, but they can be less expensive single digit tube amps or even a small chip amp. Now it really starts to look even more the bargain.

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Also one has to consider comparing these speakers against speakers like OB5 and OB7(both of them much cheaper), they must be clearly sound better for DIYers to consider building them.

They will be a lot more expensive compared to those, but again they do a lot of things that those speakers can't do. I think it is well worth it, and I am not sure that selling these as kits is the best way to move them. I may just offer them fully assembled and make a few kit deals for a limited few that think they need to build them for themselves.

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Welcome to open baffle bass. This is what I heard with Linkwitz' Orions and John K's Nao dipoles. The more dipole bass systems that were in the room, the better. However, with servo control this might solve that problem to an extent.


Yes, unlike those other two, this pair will hit some really high output levels, but that is not even the half of it.

With the Orion, gain is added to keep the low end linear. The low Q Peerless woofers start rolling off pretty quick and require a lot of gain to keep them level with the rest of the speaker. Unfortunately the high Q woofers won't take a lot of power before reaching their X-max. I think in some cases the output levels below 40Hz have been reduced (less gain applied) to keep them from being over driven. On top of that issue the drivers are then limited to their compliance to bring them back to rest.

The SW-12-16FR servo controlled woofers are a very high .748 Qts as they are designed to play in free air. So they handle a lot more power in that application. Then with the added control of the servo system they stop on a dime. Once you have heard what the servo control system can do the rest isn't even close. The SW-12-16FR's are also larger (12" woofers) compared to the Peerless woofers (10" woofers) used in the Orion's. So they can sweep more air too.

My brother was over here this morning and gave these a workout with some Metallica. He was impressed with the speed of the bottom end but felt they needed a little more umf down there. So I told him, no problem. I went over to the servo sub amp and bumped it up a hair giving him the output level in the bottom end that he felt the Metallica tracks really needed.

I was expecting the simple turn of the volume knob to have added a little thickening in the lower vocal region but was surprised at how little it was effected.

I then threw on a different Metallica album and listened to the song "One". Those double bass hits were stunning. That was the tightest, fastest, and cleanest I have ever heard. This is truly impressive and I can't wait to share this one with everyone else in the audio community.

pbrstreetgang

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Hi Danny did you say you were redesigning the sub baffles? Is there a place to mount the servo amps or are they just out of the way somewhere? Also is there a reason why just one sub per side and one plate amp cant be used? That could be better for small rooms and cut the price. Thinking out loud for use with my OB7s I was thinking on either one summed mono servo amp and a OB sub like you have them here or using the same two located at different spots in the room.

Also besides the fact that this is an all OB design I see very little in common with the Orion.

Danny Richie

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Hi Danny did you say you were redesigning the sub baffles?

I drew up the plans for an H frame. This puts a sub structure behind each woofer and allows for the baffle width to be less than the W frame design. I figured this thing was wide enough as it is and there was no sense in making it even wider.

http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/p%20audio%202.pdf
http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/p%20audio%201.pdf

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Is there a place to mount the servo amps or are they just out of the way somewhere?

I am going to have them built into their own little box that will fit neatly in the back of the speaker. I may be able to design it in a way that allows it to fit slightly up under the lower woofer.

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Also is there a reason why just one sub per side and one plate amp cant be used?


In this design, doing that would cut the output of the amp (almost in half) and with a single woofer it wouldn't quite be able to keep up with the high output level of the P Audio driver.

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Thinking out loud for use with my OB7s I was thinking on either one summed mono servo amp and a OB sub like you have them here or using the same two located at different spots in the room.

With the OB-7 your options are really open.

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Also besides the fact that this is an all OB design I see very little in common with the Orion.


Thank you. While I am not gunning for that speaker by any means, it will inevitably be compared to it because of the OB factor.

panomaniac

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Danny, have you tried the pricier CX38 series yet?

That was the first one that came to my attention, but the response is way to rough and the Qts is way to low for it to be used in an open baffle. I'd never get the woofer to play down low enough to reach the servo subs and it wouldn't work.

That may be true of the 12", I don't know.  It's too bad we didn't get a chance to drag you downstairs at RMAF to hear the BM18-CX38 on open baffle.  You'd have been impressed!  I certainly was. Sure, the published FR plot doesn't look real pretty, and the Qts is too low for OB - but it sure sounds good.  And it really will play deep.  Of course, it's not a small driver.....

I did try the 1st order x-over recommended by Common Sense Audio.  And also heard it used in the 13ft boxes they sell.  It kinda, sorta works - surprising for so simple a filter. But a real x-over is much, much better. As Danny states.

Glad to see this type of OB rig with the 12" coax. Thanks for posting! That's were I've been hoping to go myself.  :thumb:

dewar

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[Edit] found my question asked and answered
« Last Edit: 10 Nov 2008, 01:16 pm by dewar »

ttan98

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Danny,

In Australia, there is a sale of the P.Audio, BM-10CXA, a 10in version of what you are using, but the high freq driver is the same as the one used in the 12in version. The 10in version is on sale and the price is quite good. Like the 12in version the high freq(HF) unit uses the titanium diaphragm.

By looking at your freq response and the published manu. response, this HF unit is not such a great performer, in all honesty can you tame the erratic response. My experience tells me titanium disphragm gives a sharp edge to it at the high end. The  bottom line is would you use this HF unit in your system?

Danny Richie

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By looking at your freq response and the published manu. response, this HF unit is not such a great performer, in all honesty can you tame the erratic response.


Huh? This one is within +/-2.5db across its range with just a first order network. That is not bad at all.

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My experience tells me titanium disphragm gives a sharp edge to it at the high end.


My ears tell me that this one does not.

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The  bottom line is would you use this HF unit in your system?


It is in my system and I don't see myself taking it out until I have to, to work with something else.

Unfortunately that 10" version won't play down very low in free air.

sts9fan

Hi Danny,

Will you be offering this as a kit?  I was alreading planning on using a pair of your two driver "W" subs with a open baffle project so this would be perfect.  If not thats cool I will find another option.
kris

Danny Richie

I am kind of leaning a couple of directions with this one. Kit, kit with enclosures, and fully assembled.

AK

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Danny, I also sometimes get confused by following rollercoaster line of your frequency measurements :)
I think it's better to present them zoomed out a bit.
when it is zoomed out I can get a remote sense of overall sound.

Danny Richie

Yea, I know. All the other manufacturers out there show their stuff on a 10db scale to make it look better and it's easy to get used to looking at it that way.

The next time I have a chance, I'll shoot a whole range of new measurements and will do some on a 10db scale for you guys.

Wind Chaser

Most definitely, it sure threw me off.  Like most people I just assumed that the plot was on a typical 10db scale.

sts9fan

kit kit kit

corndog71

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I'd have to buy the parts piece by piece to afford it.  It sure seems like a winner!

texasphile

I listened to these speakers last Saturday, the Ninth of November.  I personally prefer the BG planar magnetic drivers for a tweeter and that is a big bias on my part.  Danny can vouch for that since he has shelved down the high end on several speakers for me.

Some folks asked about LS vs OB; I hadn't really considered a comparison between the LS series and this new speaker so I can't really comment since I haven't listened to an LS for quite some time.  Heck, I still have very fond memories of the Alpha LS from a half-decade or so ago.  I wish that I could have purchased a pair.  (sniff)  :(

There are a few absolute standout features of these Open Box speakers and their reproduction of certain instruments.  Number ONE:  Drums!   :drums:  My word, I have never heard drums ever reproduced that well.  They work eerily well in reproducing drums from the cymbals to the bass drum (or double bass drum).  Oooooooh.  The drums are amazing.  I really like how it does guitars , especially electric guitars.   :guitar:  He played the track "Call Me" by Hans Theessink.  Man, oh man, did that sound great!  If you don't have great power output from your amps, but really want to rock out, these are speakers worth looking into.  Brass also sounds very good.  Those instruments have great dynamics when played using the Open Box speakers.

Now, I listen to rock more than any other genre, and I am very happy with my O-3s.  However, they do not even get close to the bass dynamics to these speakers.  Note, that I also do not like listening to music much above 88dB and I prefer 82dB with 88dB peaks.  The O-3s sound fine with one subwoofer, but would definitely need two to even think about being as tuneful or as musical or have the ease of presentation of low notes as the Open Box speakers provide.  Even then, I doubt that they could get all that close because they would still sound "slow" compared to the Open Baffle speakers.  Unless you are going deaf or want to go deaf, I think that these speakers can give you all the power output that you need.

I hope this helps everyone.

Chris

Magnetar

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I built some speakers they may interest some people in this thread. Not the best for a SET though. IMO the best SET amps only put out 3 watts or so and are best used with fully horn loaded systems.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59335.0

Danny, are you the fellow that is building the big system mentioned in the open baffle forum?

How is that going?

zybar

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I listened to these speakers last Saturday, the Ninth of November.  I personally prefer the BG planar magnetic drivers for a tweeter and that is a big bias on my part.  Danny can vouch for that since he has shelved down the high end on several speakers for me.

Some folks asked about LS vs OB; I hadn't really considered a comparison between the LS series and this new speaker so I can't really comment since I haven't listened to an LS for quite some time.  Heck, I still have very fond memories of the Alpha LS from a half-decade or so ago.  I wish that I could have purchased a pair.  (sniff)  :(

There are a few absolute standout features of these Open Box speakers and their reproduction of certain instruments.  Number ONE:  Drums!   :drums:  My word, I have never heard drums ever reproduced that well.  They work eerily well in reproducing drums from the cymbals to the bass drum (or double bass drum).  Oooooooh.  The drums are amazing.  I really like how it does guitars , especially electric guitars.   :guitar:  He played the track "Call Me" by Hans Theessink.  Man, oh man, did that sound great!  If you don't have great power output from your amps, but really want to rock out, these are speakers worth looking into.  Brass also sounds very good.  Those instruments have great dynamics when played using the Open Box speakers.

Now, I listen to rock more than any other genre, and I am very happy with my O-3s.  However, they do not even get close to the bass dynamics to these speakers.  Note, that I also do not like listening to music much above 88dB and I prefer 82dB with 88dB peaks.  The O-3s sound fine with one subwoofer, but would definitely need two to even think about being as tuneful or as musical or have the ease of presentation of low notes as the Open Box speakers provide.  Even then, I doubt that they could get all that close because they would still sound "slow" compared to the Open Baffle speakers.  Unless you are going deaf or want to go deaf, I think that these speakers can give you all the power output that you need.

I hope this helps everyone.

Chris

What was the rest of the setup?

George

Danny Richie

That is a very interesting speaker Magnetar.

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Danny, are you the fellow that is building the big system mentioned in the open baffle forum? How is that going?

I guess so. I do have an open baffle line source in the works. I am just awaiting the cabinets from Eric. If he can just get finished with the veneering and get them to me, then I will get them completed.

texasphile

I listened to these speakers last Saturday, the Ninth of November.  I personally prefer the BG planar magnetic drivers for a tweeter and that is a big bias on my part.  Danny can vouch for that since he has shelved down the high end on several speakers for me.

Some folks asked about LS vs OB; I hadn't really considered a comparison between the LS series and this new speaker so I can't really comment since I haven't listened to an LS for quite some time.  Heck, I still have very fond memories of the Alpha LS from a half-decade or so ago.  I wish that I could have purchased a pair.  (sniff)  :(

There are a few absolute standout features of these Open Box speakers and their reproduction of certain instruments.  Number ONE:  Drums!   :drums:  My word, I have never heard drums ever reproduced that well.  They work eerily well in reproducing drums from the cymbals to the bass drum (or double bass drum).  Oooooooh.  The drums are amazing.  I really like how it does guitars , especially electric guitars.   :guitar:  He played the track "Call Me" by Hans Theessink.  Man, oh man, did that sound great!  If you don't have great power output from your amps, but really want to rock out, these are speakers worth looking into.  Brass also sounds very good.  Those instruments have great dynamics when played using the Open Box speakers.

Now, I listen to rock more than any other genre, and I am very happy with my O-3s.  However, they do not even get close to the bass dynamics to these speakers.  Note, that I also do not like listening to music much above 88dB and I prefer 82dB with 88dB peaks.  The O-3s sound fine with one subwoofer, but would definitely need two to even think about being as tuneful or as musical or have the ease of presentation of low notes as the Open Box speakers provide.  Even then, I doubt that they could get all that close because they would still sound "slow" compared to the Open Baffle speakers.  Unless you are going deaf or want to go deaf, I think that these speakers can give you all the power output that you need.

I hope this helps everyone.

Chris

What was the rest of the setup?

George

Hello George,

It was at GR-Research, so all-tube and significant amounts of power.  Danny can probably tell you how much wattage was being used to hit those peaks...I feel that it probably was much less than I would gather.  Using my "finger to the wind" SPL meter, I would guess that I was listening to 92 dB with peaks another 7-10 dB greater.

Thanks,

Chris