[JohnR]

Um, I don't think so. If Burson is selling through dealers then the dealers are the contact point. They are the ones who are supposed to be delivering customer service. The dealer should take the unit back and refund the purchase price. The person to be cautious of buying from would be the (unnamed?) dealer.

If it was a factory-direct sale then I would agree with you. But it wasn't.

But we digress, I was simply trying to point out to Bill that he doesn't have to wear the problem if he doesn't want to.

[bhobba]

As bhobba stated, how Burson responds to this problem should be a deciding factor in whether or not to purchase their products, regardless of how good they may be. You know they would immediately replace a 6 Moons reviewer's unit under the same circumstances... I wonder if they have any idea how many "yobbo's" in the market for a DAC are reading bhobba's thread and are seeing how they'll be treated if they receive a defective unit....

Um, I don't think so. If Burson is selling through dealers then the dealers are the contact point. They are the ones who are supposed to be delivering customer service. The dealer should take the unit back and refund the purchase price. The person to be cautious of buying from would be the (unnamed?) dealer. If it was a factory-direct sale then I would agree with you. But it wasn't. But we digress, I was simply trying to point out to Bill that he doesn't have to wear the problem if he doesn't want to.

Well this yobbo is happy.  I just had an email from my dealer and they will be replacing it.  I have to give them an A+ on this.  I think it was quite reasonable to enquire if you have thoroughly checked out everything - which I explained I did.  Now it looks like they are replacing it. 

Will be doing a bit more listening today against the WFS DAC 2 this time.  The WFS has greater detail and bass but has a cold top end, is a bit glary, and has sibilance problems.  The Burson has none of those problems but it does not have the detail or bass.  Previously this swung it in the favour of the WFS over the 160D but I think the DA-160 is better than the 160D with a bit better detail and more neutral and my gut tells me it could be better than the WFS via its USB but using the Offramp the WFS will have the edge- the detail the WFS reveals via the Offramp is amazing, and the other issues are significantly reduced or maybe even eliminated.  Anyway we will see.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Hi Guys

Have the Burson direct connected to my Patek and am using Pure Music. Just finished listening to some Roy Orbison and have now switched to Rebecca Pidgeon Hi Res Retrospectives. When fed with the Offramp it really does flow in a beautiful and natural way and does not have the dryness of the John Kenny Saber.

Have completed a listening session against the WFS DAC2 fed by its USB and the Offramp. Via the USB the WFS DAC2 is soundly beaten. I preferred the WFS to the 160D I had for a short time due to its increased detail but for sure I find the natural flow of the Burson better than the increased detail of the WFS with its glare, coldness and sibilance - no contest to my ears. But feed the WFS with the Offramp - Wow Wow - afraid the Burson is beaten. The detail and bass is staggering - I have not heard anything to touch it. It does not flow like the Burson - in fact its very in your face - but the coldness, glare and sibilance if not gone is reduced considerably. Do you want to relax into your music - then the Burson is the go - but the Trainquility is probably better at it - but does require a pre-amp and is USB only. But do you want something to excite you and whack you in the face - get the WFS and feed it with the Offramp - amazing. Its not dry like the JK Saber either.

Ok I am starting to form a few preliminary views of the DAC's in this price range - the Burson, the WFS, the JK Saber, and Tranquility. Forget about the WFS fed by its USB. If you like a free flowing easy to listen to presentation devoid of any trace of nastiness and would like to save money by direct connecting to your amp then the Burson is the go - it is not the last word in detail though - good - but other DAC's are better. If you like an analogue like sound with good detail close to the best out there (but beatable) and are willing to get a pre amp and only use USB - then the Tranquility is for you. Do you want a very neutral DAC and don't mind a slight trace of dryness (do not try it on dry bright speakers - it will not work well) that has close to the best possible detail and bass - get the John Kenny Saber. But if you want an excitement machine, really in your face with the best bass and detail I have heard the WFS fed by the Offramp will really fit the bill. But I have to say that will cost you $2700.00 and for that price you can get a PDX with built in pre amp that will blow any of those DAC's away. But that $2700 could be reduced considerably to about $1500 by using an Audiopehlo 2 or JK Hiface Mark 3 - but may not scale the heights the Offramp with Turboclocks does.

Thanks
Bill

[JLM]

Thanks so much Bill for all the listening, legwork, and especially the clear summarizing.      

How I wish the professionals could bring themselves to practice more economy of words.   

With the pace technology keeps changing doing these comparisons could keep you busy full time.

[Eadron]

My former DAC was EE MiniMax. I now have been broken in the unit some 130-150 hrs or so and the sound is stabilizing constantly. You have to remember - Burson, being a discrete design, needs to be fully broken in before any serious comments about it's sound..

For the USB connection, I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with it (well I could be wrong naturally )..just check your player's Audio/MIDI set up when connecting via USB..at first me couldn't hear no sound either from the other channel..

For the sound this far; pretty freaking good.. ..using Pure Music as a player, Neutral Cable USB..seems that I like that way better than using JKHiface MkII and Black Cat Veloce BNC..smooth, unfatiguing sound with great detail and substansial definition, heft and impact in bass register.

Cheers,
Jouni

[bhobba]

For the USB connection, I'm pretty sure there's nothing wrong with it (well I could be wrong naturally )..just check your player's Audio/MIDI set up when connecting via USB..at first me couldn't hear no sound either from the other channel..

Hi Jouni

I will be fooked - I will be fooked.  I had checked all sorts of stuff to correct my one channel issue but didn't check the Midi.  Well I checked it and that was the problem.  Thanks for posting that - now fixed and I can compare the USB to the Off-Ramp

Now the thing is why has it occurred in the first place on three separate machines including yours and why did it work for a little while on the first machine I tried it on.  Anyone got any ideas about that?

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

Thanks so much Bill for all the listening, legwork, and especially the clear summarizing.       How I wish the professionals could bring themselves to practice more economy of words.    With the pace technology keeps changing doing these comparisons could keep you busy full time.

Thanks mate.

Please be aware however that the professional reviewers are usually chosen not so much for their knowledge of and experience with Hi Fi gear but for the quality of their writing.  For example have a look at the 6 Moons review of the HA-160D.  If you read the review the impression you get from all the fancy prose is that DAC is scary close to the best out there at any price.  It isn't - perhaps the best with its features in that price range - but it is soundly beaten by higher priced gear.

I hasten to add not all reviewers are like that.  For example John Darko, who I know fairly well, writes exceptionally good prose (much better than I can) but his comments I find ultra reliable and pretty much spot on.  He now reviews for 6 Moons as well.

I feel very fortunate in having the means and time to check this stuff out - and boy is it fun.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

For the sound this far; pretty freaking good.. ..using Pure Music as a player, Neutral Cable USB..seems that I like that way better than using JKHiface MkII and Black Cat Veloce BNC..smooth, unfatiguing sound with great detail and substansial definition, heft and impact in bass register.

I really am getting bad in my old age.  Yesterday the friend I was demoing the Burson DAC to notices something - I had some crappy SDIF cable connected instead of my reference cable - I thought I had been using that but really hadn't.  Holey crap once that went in via the Off-Ramp the Burson is in a different league.  The USB is thin and lacking in detail.  Now its in  a different league to my ears.

Thanks
Bill

[Eadron]

^Hello Bill, may I ask which USB cable were you using?

[bhobba]

^Hello Bill, may I ask which USB cable were you using?

Hi Jouni

Essential Signature from Db Audiolabs.

Thanks
Bill

[JLM]

Bill, I'm sure it helps to not have advertising money talking to you (more verbage, more room for ads & more nice words, more ads).

Bill, I'm looking for a non-battery, non-tubed DAC that is "lighter" and detailed.  Would prefer AES/EBU and will need USB for the future.  Must keep cost down.  The JKSaber looked good until I saw the battery.  Any ideas?

TIA

[eclein]

Schiit- Bifrost DAC.....

[srb]

Schiit- Bifrost DAC.....

It hasn't even shipped yet, so I don't know how you would know that it's sound is "lighter" and detailed in comparison?  Anyway, it will definitely not have an AES/EBU input.
 
Steve

[bhobba]

Bill, I'm sure it helps to not have advertising money talking to you (more verbage, more room for ads & more nice words, more ads). Bill, I'm looking for a non-battery, non-tubed DAC that is "lighter" and detailed.  Would prefer AES/EBU and will need USB for the future.  Must keep cost down.  The JKSaber looked good until I saw the battery.  Any ideas?

Of the DAC's I have none really fits that bill.  The JK Saber sounds like that when directly connected to amps - it is detailed and quite ethereal but is battery and only has USB.

The WFS DAC has the connections etc and is very detailed - but a light sound - no - thin yes.  However when fed with a top source like the Off-Ramp it is anything but ethereal - in fact its quite meaty.  I really don't know any that meets your exact requirements.

Scratching my head about your advertising money comment.  As I said many times and on many forums I do this for a bit of fun and at my own, I might add not trivial, expense.  I do not get review samples etc which I believe helps me keep my objectivity.  But of course I am only human and have biases etc.

Thanks
Bill

[JLM]

Thanks again Bill.  That's pretty much what I gathered of the current offerings.  With new good quality DACs popping up seemingly every day, I don't want to "over invest".  My current system cost about $5000 USD and want to keep the cost inline with that.

Sorry if I confused you, but I was just trying to say that your reviews are better than "professional" reviews (straight forward/concise) because you don't have a worry of attracting advertising money.  I value and respect your findings.

Keeping it light and breezy mate.   

[JLM]

eclein,

Yes the Schiit looks intriguing, but I'm waiting for the reviews and their promised upscale models.  Who knows which might fit the bill for me?

[kyrill]

I really am getting bad in my old age.  Yesterday the friend I was demoing the Burson DAC to notices something - I had some crappy SDIF cable connected instead of my reference cable - I thought I had been using that but really hadn't. Holey crap once that went in via the Off-Ramp the Burson is in a different league.  The USB is thin and lacking in detail.  Now its in  a different league to my ears.

Thanks
Bill

Thx Bill for yr sharing

Would you like to elaborate a bit more on how the ha-160 sound now?

[bhobba]

Thx Bill for yr sharing. Would you like to elaborate a bit more on how the ha-160 sound now?

Hi Kyrill

Funny you mentioned that - I was with a friend today and checked it out on two systems - mine and an acquaintances reference system.

Via its USB the Burson has the warmth I noticed in the 160D.  It was nice but once you connected the off ramp the warmth - gone - in fact it sounded slightly bright.  Detail a lot better - it was thought via the USB it was a bit indistinct and slurry.  Its really is chalk and cheese.  But it came at a price - sibilance also greater.  However it is definitely a SS sound and how much you like it depends on how much you like an obvious SS sound.  Personally it was not my bag nor was it the bag of the others present.

The one that really impressed us was the WFS DAC2 via the Off-Ramp - its so good in fact it right up there with the PDX - but different.  IMHO it is a better choice than the Burson,  The USB of the Burson is better than the USB on the WFS but for some reason, while both are in a different league the WFS seems to benefit a lot more and was preferred by everone by a good margin.  This is very surprising as everyone who heard oit has been very critical of the WFS.  But it now looks like its real problem is the jitter it is fed - the inherent jitter rejection of the Saber is not as good as it is touted IMHO

Thanks
Bill 

[R-A-W]

Bill, do you prefer Burson with or without Offramp?

Funny thing is that the WFS has async usb and the Burson adaptive.
One would expect the jitter level of the WFS to be lower.
So one would expect the improvement of the Offramp/Burson combo to be greater.
Instead the improvement of the Offramp/WFS combo is greater if I understand correctly.

Any thoughts on this?
Could it be a bad spdif implementation at the Burson?

[bhobba]

Bill, do you prefer Burson with or without Offramp? Funny thing is that the WFS has async usb and the Burson adaptive. One would expect the jitter level of the WFS to be lower. So one would expect the improvement of the Offramp/Burson combo to be greater. Instead the improvement of the Offramp/WFS combo is greater if I understand correctly.  Any thoughts on this? Could it be a bad spdif implementation at the Burson?

The Burson is better with the off-ramp without question.  A couple of issues - the Burson is quintessential SS because that is Bursons bag - the sound simply does not grab me.   The USB for some reason seems to add warmth - possibly some euphonic jitter thing.  When it is removed you get the full force of the rather mechanical sounding output stage - but that may get better with time - the WFS certainly did. Async can be better if the clocks are good - if the thinking in the WFS was the jitter rejection of the Saber was so good there was no need to have really low jitter clocks then that may be the reason.  Heaven knows really.  I must admit technical speculation on why this may be happening does not really appeal except it is becoming obvious to me Steve Nugent is correct - Jitter is more important than people realize.

Thanks
Bill