[TheChairGuy]

1. Tonearm
2. Turntable
3. Cartridge

In that order, I'm pretty sure 

Since I've been playing with all manners of turntables, drive systems, suspended and non, tonearms and the like I am coming up with the same equation that Roy Gandy of Rega and others have.....without a first class tonearm you are sunk.  You can get by with a decent deck that holds speed pretty well and some reasonably sufficient cartridge, but your money is best spent concentrating/allocating in the tonearm.

This is quite a revelation to me as I hadn't known or considered this before...but I think you can get by skimping on deck (as long as it's well isolated somehow) and cartridge...but buy as much tonearm (whether attached or a la carte) as you can afford.

My future thoughts and experiments on better vinyl performance will be based upon the notion that tonearm performance is the biggest factor among the three noted.

More to come....

John

[Wayner]

The tonearm is definitely in the forefront when it comes to vinyl playback. I really don't think they call it "tonearm" for nothin'. I might put the cartridge next, only because a great tonearm on a great table with a shitty cartridge, makes the vinyl experience perhaps.....unpleasant. Most tables I have encountered have addressed speed accuracy and rumble fairly well, while some fall down on motor shielding, and others fall down with motor noise and plain old rumble. However, I believe (unless you have severe rumble or wow and flutter) these troublesome gremlins mostly disappear during playback. I'm sure we'll all agree that it's totally awesome to have a big black "nothing" in between tracks. That is my goal, anyway.

The one question I have for you John, is your pecking order based on performace only? Or I wonder if there isn't a little cost damper in the equation?

[nrenter]

My vote would be for...

1. Turntable
2. Tonearm
3. Cartridge

However, YMMV.

[Dan_ed]

I've got a little different take.

1. table
2. tonearm
3. phono stage
4. cartridge

The tonearm must have a stable base that also handles vibrations correctly to perform at its peak. (I'll leave out speed stability for this discussion.) One the table and tonearm are in place, a good phono stage that is matched for the cartridge is a must. With the first three in place you can be reasonably certain that you are hearing all that the cartridge can do. Even with relatively inexpensive cartridge.

[TheChairGuy]

The tonearm is definitely in the forefront when it comes to vinyl playback. I really don't think they call it "tonearm" for nothin'. I might put the cartridge next, only because a great tonearm on a great table with a shitty cartridge, makes the vinyl experience perhaps.....unpleasant. Most tables I have encountered have addressed speed accuracy and rumble fairly well, while some fall down on motor shielding, and others fall down with motor noise and plain old rumble. However, I believe (unless you have severe rumble or wow and flutter) these troublesome gremlins mostly disappear during playback. I'm sure we'll all agree that it's totally awesome to have a big black "nothing" in between tracks. That is my goal, anyway.

The one question I have for you John, is your pecking order based on performace only? Or I wonder if there isn't a little cost damper in the equation?

The pecking order is for performance only......I'm not sure how to allocate $$$ as there is so many ways to save on each (buying used, demo's, discounted new, etc).  The pecking order is a share of mind allocation, perhaps that's more correct 

I agree - a decent table has already addressed speed issues (and most the vibration issue at least somewhat).....the differences then seem mostly to be tonearm-related.

I think Rega has it right....their tables are nuthin' terribly special, but they mate it to a few very capable arms with solid mounting for cartridges to them. Add outboard speed control and it improves that much more measurably.

I am wondering how far my bastard Technics 1200 can go with a really super arm on it  knowing full well the vibrational issue on direct drive decks can never fully be solved due to it's very design itself.

John

[shokunin]

For me the cartridge is the last in terms of maximizing performance.  You'd be surprised how well a Denon DL 103R in plastic or even better nuded sounds on top notch table, arm, phono stage.  Since cartridges are wear and tear items, I'd rather spend money on a better table, arm and phonostage than the cartridge. 

Cartridges need to be chosen to match the rest of vinyl system, cartridges also seems to have a much poorer resale on audiogon and can be picked up cheaper second hand.

[Wayner]

Crips, John,

What did you start again! We're all over the place with pecking order. Maybe the agreement is on tonearm. Maybe it's the old chain (weakest link) senerio, don't know. When it's all right, the machine will let you know. How's that for a whimpy way out!

Wayner aa

[BobM]

I would have to say:

- cartridge
- phono stage
- tonearm
- table

After all, the cartridge and phono stage convey the musical signal and one is very dependent on the qualities of the other. Of course, it all makes a difference, right down to the turntable motor and cleanliness of the power for all of it.

Enjoy,
Bob

[lazydays]

I guess I gotta be different!
1. phono stage
2. cartridge
3. table
4. arm
5. cables
6. isolation devices
7. clamps and other tweeks
gary

[Listens2tubes]

Cartridge
Tonearm
Phonostage
Turn

NO!

Tonearm
Turntable
Cartridge
Phonostage  NO

[PeteG]

1. Tonearm
2. table
3. phono stage
4. cart

To me you need a good balance that works good together, the whole is better than the sum of its parts.

[toocool4]

Well for me they are all equally as important because a chain is only as strong as the weakest link.

But if I had to put them in order then for me it goes like this

1)   Turntable
2)   Tone Arm / Cartridge
4)   Phono Stage

If your turntable is not rock solid then the tone arm / cartridge can’t do their jobs properly and if the cartridge is not retrieving the details from the groove there is nothing the phono stage can do to make things better since it can not create what is not there.

Chris

[Dan_ed]

Yes, but for the sake of argument, if the phono stage is not good enough, or miss-matched to the cartridge, to pass all of the information properly you'll never know how well the cartridge is doing or can do. This can even be taken to include the table and tonearm as well. If the phono stage is weak you won't hear what the table/arm/cart are able or not able to do. So the phono stage could be moved to the top of the list.

This is always a fun topic. I think Listens2tubes has the right answer in the end. 

[toocool4]

I think we all have to agree that everything has to be good else we don’t get the full info out of the groove.

[TheChairGuy]

I passed on adding the phono stage to the mix...I wanted to confine it to the analog front end alone.

I think you can get away with a decent phono stage...and inordinate amount of attention is paid to it.  Personally, I like the excellent phono stages in some full function preamps, integrateds or even receivers.  It's more direct that way...less rca's and less hurdles for measly cartridge voltages to leap thru and over.

I really do think the tonearm is most important piece of the three others...followed by a reasonably good deck that keeps speed (I'm not sure I can hear with conviction, 0.25% or so deviation) and is isolated from external 'energy' and a cartridge that tracks well and sounds good enough to you 

Really, I think Rega and Roy Gandy (and others) have the right equation all along for affordable vinyl playback. Focus on the tonearm and get the rest reasonably right and you'll hear good playback.

John

[woodsyi]

I don't know what to think.  I think tonearm and cart has to be linked because of mass/compliance thing.  I mean some carts just can't be used with some arms.  At the moment I am thinking the mass of the platter and the bearing is the most important thing.    

[BobM]

I used to think a merely "good" phono stage was sufficient. I got good sound, at least as good as my CD. Then I tried out a really good phono stage (Hagerman Trumpet) and bought it immediately. The difference in the rig was startling. It really digs out a whole new level of information and projects an incredible soundstage.

Now, could it do this if my arm, table and cartridge weren't up to it? Of course not, but it gave me a different appreciation for what the phono stage adds to the chain. That's why I have it top of my list, along with the cartridge.

Enjoy,
Bob

[GBB]

I used to think a merely "good" phono stage was sufficient. I got good sound, at least as good as my CD. Then I tried out a really good phono stage (Hagerman Trumpet) and bought it immediately.

Bob,
Your answers leads to my somewhat cynical response that the most important thing in one's analog front end is what you've spent the most money on recently    .

Somewhat more seriously, I view the entire cartridge, tonearm, SUT, and phono stage as a system.  Asking which one is more important is like asking me which part of my leg is more important, the knee, the thigh, or the calf.  It's not really good without any of them.  In my case I am a big fan of low output moving coil cartridges and one can only get the best sound out of them by finding a good SUT and playing around with the loading for best sound.  Until you've done that, you don't know how good your cartridge can sound.  Too many people plug in a cartridge without any tweaking and conclude they don't like the way it sounds.  You can spend a lot of money looking for the lucky combination that works well together or you can tweak things and then many many things work well together.

Regarding the importance of the turntable vs. the cartridge/tonearm/SUT/phono stage combination (abbreviated CTSP from now on), I'd put them on almost equal footing with perhaps a slight edge to the CTSP combo over the turntable.

---Gary

[TheChairGuy]

I don't mean to minimize the impact of a phono stage....but I think a competent, dual-mono solid state (quieter, more solid sounding bottom end - that can be soggy with tubes) phone pre is a very good start.  It needs to boost signals cleanly and equalize correctly....you can pay a lot for cosmetic do-dads with little to show for better sonics as a result.

I like the $50 ART DJ Pre if you have to have outboard...two of them used as dual mono are better still.  $100 is $$ well spent on this tandem.

Preferred is a more direct path from TT to pre......the Superphon Dual Mono had a very fine phono section....as do others made in the past 30 years. A very few phono pre's even have full gain/volume controls to use as a standalone right into your amp(s) (the EAR 834p, the newest PS Audio unit, the incredibly pricey Manley Steelhead come to mind)

But, among the three components that make up just the analog front end....I think focus on the tonearm is the most warranted.  The deck and cartridge need to be competent (everyone's idea of that is different, of course)...keep speed, isolate the motor and outside from finding way to the delicate needle and the cartridge needs to track well, and sound (subjectively) good.

The more you can improve any facet of performance will be helpful.....but the most effort would be in finding and using a very high quality tonearm. 

[Dan_ed]

I think you started with a general statement about vinyl playback and now you're trying to narrow it down to some vary specific components so that only your list can qualify.

Well, ok. It's your thread, so to speak.

Now if you had started this thread by saying something like "for a limited budget" or "good vinyl playback on the cheap" then I could go along.

But your only scratching the surface of what vinyl can really sound like with the components you've mentioned, so I think your recommendation that money is best spent on the arm and cheaping out on other parts of the chain is not the best suggestion.

I can absolutely guarantee that a Schroeder tonearm on any Rega table will never even come close to what that arm could do on a real "world class" table.  And, using a $100 phono stage is good?!?  Well, again, it's your thread.