[srb]

I have to say, although intriguing as this new DAC appears to be, it raises my skeptical eyebrow: ...........

newzooreview,
 
Your very well organized post seems to be in agreement with my comments and observations in my previous posts, so my question to you is this:
 
Aside from the 2 reviews, what exactly is it that you find intriguing about this new DAC?
 
Steve

[db audio labs]

Hi newzooreview,

Your skepticism about our new product and our "different approach" is completely understandable. Let me try to give you some more information for each of the points you outlined to allay your concerns about db Audio Labs and what we are all about.

1. The reviews on these threads are just starting to pop up in December because we just launched this company and it's product at the RMAF show this October. We are very new indeed. Customers and audiophiles auditioning and buying the Tranquility DAC have only been able to acquire one for a few months.


2. I cannot speak for each poster's opinion of the Tranquility. That is their point to answer. I can say though that we developed this Tranquility with the sole purpose of resetting the bar for what you can get sonically for your money anywhere near we are selling it for. As for being equal to anything at the $10K level, I would never even consider saying something like that one myself. I'm hoping that the feedback from others to show the product is completely unique for them performance wise. Hello new Tranquility owners? I know it's the Christmas time of the year but some posters here really want to hear from you.  BTW: Danny of GR Research has also said very good things about the Tranquility's performance here on this forum, so these accolades are not singular by any means.

3. I thought I finally answered everyone's concern "in plain language" about the fact that our dac is NOT a 24/192 dac. Per the previous page -"The "NOS" DAC we use has 16 bit internal native resolution". Everyone, please let me know if you need more. I'll say it anyway you want to hear it six ways to sundown! I did decide to call higher rez music files "non standard" since 99% of all music in the world is being offered to us at this rate. Of course, you are very correct that in the studios it is recorded at higher rates. It's just that 99% of music we can actually buy is currently offered in 16 bit CD format. Perhaps I should have just wrote the term "99%" instead of "non standard". That is what I actually wanted to imply anyway. I am hoping (just like many of us) that the core music industry starts offering all of us high rez. Anything to help us to improve our treasured source recordings would be wonderful!

4. I am not refusing to reveal the dac chip per say, as it is a "NOS dac" chipset. There are only a few different choices that any manufacturer could use (in case you were not aware). We do reserve the right as a company though to decide where we draw the line with letting everyone know our own discoveries to the what and how we achieved what we did. Most importantly, we are hanging our entire reputation on the heroic sonic performance we achieved with our design choices. In our professional opinion, audiophile manufacturers have been "pulling the wool" over many audiophiles for years by "touting the tech" and having audiophiles then believe they achieved something uniquely special just with "tech talk". Aren't some of you guys getting tired of the broken promises being blindsided by some new "high tech discovery" only to want to sell that newfangled product very soon after? You were convinced to buy it just by the "tech talk", yet it wasn't the actual sonic breakthrough you thought it would be. What ever happened to an audiophile company proving their product with head to head listening comparatives against the other choices? Hence, the "best sounding dac is the winner". Did we get lost somewhere with all this tech analysis versus listening comparatives? dB Audio Labs wants to inspire confidence with audiophiles the old fashion way, by earning it through the actual proof of the product's performance. Anything else is just conjecture, speculation and hype.

Eric Hider - dB Audio Labs

[satfrat]

A pretty straight foward post Eric, you have me wishing my system was geared towards a standalone DAC so I could try one out. Everything you say is spot-on and while the few individuals here those posts are Hi-Rez oriented, most digital audiophiles listen to the simple industry standard CD or are downloading lossless CD-quality 16/44.1 which is afterall what your DAC is geared for. From what I've seen, that is your only claim and it's your claim that your DAC does this better than most and w/o the bells & whistles that it can do more than just 16/44.1 which most DAC's on the market have but what most audiophiles will never use anyways,, at least not yet.
 
Thou I'm not likely to ever be in the market for a standalone DAC of any make, I'm also curious to hear from those who are trying out your product and if the consensus opinions are that it's as good as Danny says, I sure hope you can make a go of it in this uncertain time. Good luck Eric. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[richny]

I just purchased the Tranquility Dac and have listened to it for several hours in my system. It is tough during the holidays to find the time for long auditioning sessions so these comments are based on an hour or 2 over several days. 
  Initial impressions are it is very very good in my system and that is with a less than optimal set up. I am using a generic USB cable as that is only what I have currently available (better one on order).  Right now the server is a pc running foobar through kmixer.   I intend to switch to a mac mini sometime after the holidays. 
I have directly compared the Tranquility to a Monarchy Audio NM24 fed ascyncronously via an M2tec hiface USB converter feeding the Monarchy in kernal streaming mode.  I have had the Monarchy for 2 years and it is very good particularly with the ascync USB converter.  Using the tube dac directly connected to my redwine audio signature 30.2, I have been getting a very listenable result that is analogue like with sweet highs, great transparency, and excellent tone. The Tranquility has the same great tone and it is very analog like, despite not having a tube based output. I have concluded it has superior detail and pratt to the Monarchy.  The music seems to flow with a more lively pace with the Tranquility if that makes sense. That's how I hear it anyway. The one area where the Tranquility seems to fall short in comparison is soundstage depth. It is good but not as deep as the Monarchy. I hope to see an improvement in this area with the USB cable upgrade.  We shall see. 
   I only have positive things to say about my experiences with Eric.  He spent a lot of time answering my questions about the dac via email and on the phone.  It was the personal touch and fact that he really knew his product inside and out that convinced me to jump in and give it a listen  The dac was delivered 3 days after I ordered it.
  I like the simplicity of a set up with a USB dac fed by a compact computer source into a good integrated amp.  My sense is that with good quality cables (USB and interconnects), the Tranquility dac will do it for me.  I like what I hear.   The upgrade bug is satisfied for the time being. Time to focus on finding some good music.                 

[newzooreview]

Dear srb,

I'm simply intrigued by the claims at face value. It is certainly possible that someone could design a DAC that sounds terrific for a very reasonable cost. And if it's designed from the ground up as USB only then it would be tailored to my needs (feeding it with a MacBook music server).

My current DAC does not have a good USB receiver, and since I just got my new Salk HT1-TLs I'm looking upstream to be sure that I'm feeding the Salks the best I can.

[newzooreview]

Dear richny,

I can recommend the Virtue Audio USB cable. Even though my DAC doesn't have a great USB receiver, it provided a noticeable improvement over my standard computer USB cable. Much better space between the instruments, bass definition, and overall clarity. I suspect that a high quality cable will help with the sound staging. Probably any number of well-made USB cables will give an improvement. I'll be curious to hear about the Tranquility DAC with the cable upgrade.

http://store.virtueaudio.com/product-p/vrtu-usb-nrv.htm

[newzooreview]

Dear Eric,

Thank you for your detailed response. I do look forward to hearing more from the early-adopters as well.

Regarding high-resolution files, I just calculated that 1.3% of my music files are above Redbook resolution. This tracks with your 99% Redbook figure, but I interpret the data much differently than you do. The more salient statistic is that in the last 8 months, 21% of the music that I've added to my library has been high resolution. That's 177 tracks out of 863.

And I don't think I'm alone--you're marketing a $1500 USB-only DAC, e.g. an audiophile DAC for people running their stereos from a computer-based music server. That's a niche market. In that market, people are buying a much larger proportion of high-resolution files than the overall distribution indicates. And in 2010, most people who will be looking to upgrade the DACs for their music servers will want something that isn't obsolete out of the box.

I would love to hear your DAC, and as skeptical as I have been I wouldn't be surprised if it bettered my current DAC on Redbook files. But when I go to spend my $1500 next year, it would be hard for me to not buy something that will give me better than Redbook sound and not waste the money I have spent on better source material. I don't think anyone would argue that all things being equal, a high resolution version of any song is going to sound better. Folks who have the high resolution version of Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, for example, would not want to settle for the Redbook version.

[Plink]

WE WILL PUSH HARD FOR THE COMPARATIVES!

Yep, you will certainly need to because right now, it only appears to be a NOS DAC in a box (not exactly groundbreaking information).  If your mission statement is to win on sound and that is the only real "information" with which to be judged, then right now you would have to concede that there is very little "information" out there regarding your product.

As you probably know, mainstream media does not provide proper comparatives (Stereophile, Absolute Sounds, Tone Audio, etc...).  Products in the same price range are just simply not compared and if they are, no real conclusions are drawn regarding comparisons.  Similar products are often presented as viable alternatives to each other.

Only a week left in the current year.  Perhaps you will need to extend the $500 off grace period beyond the new year to get more listeners who can provide their experiences or "information".    

DB Audio Labs, good luck to you and congratulations on the launch of your product.  I really hope it is the market adjuster that it is being claimed to be.

PS.  I seek sound that is more real rather than more information in bits...so, I'm definitely in your corner.

[richny]

Thanks newzooreview for the USB cable suggestion.  I had already decided to go for the poleima by Ridge Street Audio which is quite a bit more expensive but I think this dac is worth the best cable I can afford at this time to use with it.  I expect to see a significant improvement with this cable and with some break-in with the dac.  You can tell right out of the box that this dac is special.  It captures the sound of cymbals the best I have heard to date and its tone is spot on.
There is quite a debate ongoing about hi-rez files.  Since I purchased the Tranquility, it is no surprise I am looking to get the best sound possible out of 44.1.  I have been really surprised at how good an NOS dac can sound.  This is not my first.  I have the Monarchy and I bought a Valab and modified it (there is a lot about that on the head fi forums).  I did it just for fun to see what was possible.  It really performed way beyond its price point with a low jitter source.   At its best, it does not even come close to the Tranqulity. The DB Audio group seems to have figured out how to deliver a more refined high end.  While I don't doubt that hi-rez has its incremental sonic improvements,  it is pretty amazing what you can get out of plain old 44.1 with well designed equipment.

[newzooreview]

Thanks, richny. Just to give you an idea of where I'm at, I am currently using a PS Audio DL III with Level 3 mods from Cullen Circuits. That's connected by USB to my MacBook, and I'm convinced that the USB receiver of the PS Audio is the weak link. It's not asynchronous and the jitter is therefore not well controlled.

My first step is to get a HiFace. That is on the way and should solve the USB weak spot by giving me bit-perfect, low jitter output of any sampling rate that I have. The DAC can receive 24/192, so no limitations there.

I am eyeing an updgrade, however, since DAC technology evolves rapidly and my new Salk speakers will benefit from the best possible source. Options are

1. The upcoming Wyred4Sound DAC-1: Wyred4Sound is run by the guy who did the upgrades on my DL III, and he uses a DL III in his system. So, his DAC-1 will be designed to better the DL III. It will use the new Sabre 32-bit DAC and an asynchronous USB interface. It will take 24/192 input from the computer. So, it's a top contender right now since Wyred4Sound knows how to design robust power supplies and good circuits to get the best out of a DAC chip.

2. The new Audio by Van Alstine Vision DAC. This would require that I use the HiFace since the DAC will only have coax (and optical) inputs. However, my Salk speakers were designed using the Van Alstine Insight DAC, and I've heard it first hand and know it is excellent. Frank Van Alstine thinks his new DAC is significantly better, so again that's a trustable reference point to me. Van Alstine also has a strong track record in top notch power supplies and circuits. The only limitation with the Vision DAC is that I would have to open it and change a jumper to play 24/192. It plays everything below 24/192 without moving the jumper, so the trade-off may be ok.

3. This Tranquility DAC. I know that Redbook can sound wonderful and musical and fully satisfying. And the design is otherwise tuned to my use (USB connection). And the preliminary comments that are more sober in tone (such as yours) appear to support that the DAC is quite good and may be something special (I used to have a Red Wine Audio amp and RWA also sells NOS DACs and I respect Vinnie's judgment on good sound). So, I'm keeping it in mind, but I find the ga ga gushy marketing and first-up user reviews a little off putting.

[newzooreview]

Plink, you hit the nail on the head: the timeframe on the $500 discount is too tight. It's only been a couple of weeks that there has been any serious feedback on the Internet about this DAC. If the discount were available through the end of January so that a critical mass of early reports could come in then dB Audio would stand a much better chance of building a critical mass of vocal and supportive early adopters. They are going to need to build that group because they are competing in a very tight field at the $1500 price point.

I do wish them well despite my criticisms, but they need to give some more breathing room to cement their reputation, I think.

[Will2]

...... This would require that I use the HiFace since the DAC will only have coax (and optical) inputs. 

Hi newzoo,

Are you sure you need that HiFace for the Van Alstine DAC if it has optical input?  Couldn't you use the optical that comes directly from the MacBook?  I have heard people say the optical from MacBook is as good, if not better, than the USB interface.

Cheers
Will

[newzooreview]

Dear Will2,

Not to get too far off topic, but the issue for me is jitter control. There is no jitter control over the Toslink output as far as I understand, and there can be very good control of jitter over USB with one of the recent software implementations (the stuff that Wavelength Audio does and the drivers that are used with the HiFace and will be used with the Wyred4Sound DAC-1). Reports from folks who have compared Toslink to synchronous USB to asynchronous (jitter controlled) USB seem to universally prefer the latter. I haven't done that comparison, but that is the direction that I'm hunting for better sound.

If the HiFace USB to Coax doesn't sound better than the optical or built-in USB input on my DAC, then I'll know to look elsewhere for improvement.

To connect back to this post: this is another area where more detailed information on the Tranquility DAC would help. It should be possible to say something concrete about their approach to controlling jitter over the USB connection, including some measurement of the result.

They keep saying that the proof is in the sound, but the problem I have with that is that in order to integrate a component into my system to get the best sound I need to know something about how it operates. For example, if there is some technology in play that produces very low jitter in the USB receiver on the Tranquility then knowing something about that will help be make better choices in using the device. It may inform me, for example, about the possible benefit of an upgraded USB cable or changing settings in my computer. It may also help me understand what the source of a problem may be if I have one. If I understand the technology then I can get the most out of my investment. If I can't get any info then I feel, and I am, constrained in my ability to use it to best effect.

dB Audio needs to understand that telling your potential customers about the technical details of the product and placing the emphasis on the sound quality are not mutually exclusive. You need to talk about both, for valid reasons. At least to attract my business you do.

[newzooreview]

A further question for dB Audio Eric.

Over on Audiogon, dB Audio asserts that USB is a great digital source because the data stream can be dissociated from the clock information (eliminating the typically high jitter from the computer's world clock).

As I posted over on Audiogon:

Can you explain how you go from USB input to IIS (I2S) without introducing timing or clock information?

For background, here's the Wikipedia overview of I2S:

"I2S, also known as Inter-IC Sound, Integrated Interchip Sound, or IIS, is an electrical serial bus interface standard used for connecting digital audio devices together. It is most commonly used to carry PCM information between the CD transport and the DAC in a CD player. The I2S bus separates clock and data signals, resulting in a very low jitter connection. Jitter can cause distortion in a digital-to-analog converter. The bus consists of at least three lines:

1. Bit clock line
2. Word clock line (also called word select line or left right clock)
3. And at least one multiplexed data line"

There is both a bit clock and world clock line in the specification. How do you take a USB digital feed, ignore the associated clock info from the computer (which is poorly controlled and introduces jitter if used) and add in the clock info needed for IIS (I2S) going into the DAC?

You act like USB is great since you can just take the data stream and ignore the high jitter in the poor clock signal from the computer. But not so fast. You still need clock info to be associated with the data for the DAC to make sense of it.

How do YOU solve this problem? How is your solution better or comparable to what others have done?

I'm prepared to hear that you have a great solution, but I would like to understand it. Understanding it might help me should I own your DAC: maybe your solution means that changing or upgrading my USB cable is not a tweak that I need to explore. Maybe it will implicate other choices in system setup. Maybe it will build my trust in the innovations that you claim in the whole design of the DAC.

For cross reference, please check out the white papers that Ayre has published on the topic of asynchronous USB.

[TRADERXFAN]

For the guys hung up on there is only "2 reviews", it seems to be overlooking Danny Richie of Gr research spoke very highly of it after using it in his room at RMAF he bought it himself.  (And commented on it earlier in this thread)

This is what gave me the confidence to order it to give it a try. I would have waited for more feedback to come out on it, but I wanted to take advantage of the intro price. So I bought mine -so the limited time intro price offer did work for them.  But it sounds like they actually want to make some money on the product and need the price to be higher.  I guess they feel that they sold enough units.  But if you are on the fence there is still time.

To those worried about not knowing enough about the internals of the DAC to set up your system optimally. Eric has been willing to share all kinds of optimization recommendations and answer questions about what he thinks works best and why.

It sounds like there is a restocking fee at this price, but probably not at the regular price?  If correct, for those who are interested, but have a lot of concerns, to buy it with a free return policy seems like the best option for you.


(PS -when was there a 50% discount?!? I wish I would have been able to take advantage of that!)

Tony

*edit*
Sorry - didn't see that db audio mentioned Danny's feedback already

[db audio labs]

Hi newzooreview,

Per your inquiry about the Audiogon poster's question, here is a re-print of my answer for him. -

Sure we can explain the I2S area within the dac and USB's inherent timing/jitter advantages.

In a nutshell, USB interconnectivity does NOT carry timing from the computer, it just carries a "start of frame" signal to let the dac know when to start and buffered packets of music data. So, unlike other connection schemes (SPDIF), you do NOT have jitter induced at the transport or through the USB cable (which is a HUGE improvement comparably...when USB is done correctly). Then you are at the receiver portion of the DAC itself where the timing (and potential jitter may happen). A local oscillator approximate to the receiver provides the timing for the dac process. All of the potential timing issues are related to this area alone (when done right). The choice of the oscillator itself, the way that oscillator is configured, optimized, connected and powered will determine how much jitter is then introduced. With EXTREMELY careful optimization it can really good compared to most other digital solutions, especially SPDIF. There has been so much mis-information about SPDIF being "the best connection" as compared to USB that I think it's about time we really sit down and re-analyze how this came to be. It's just not the case. Then again, there's allot of USB dacs done wrong. Could that be why so many think SPDIF was superior?

So, in essence, jitter is never at zero in the entire solution (as you alluded). It is just down to one singular area (which SPDIF can never even hope to emulate comparably). Once this area is extremely optimized the jitter is managed much better than most other digital solutions.

Of course we like to still point out that the actual proof comes from the sound improvement in any connection scheme. Anything other type of analysis other than an actual true improvement in sound quality is just utter speculation, hype and tech-babble! As compared to other digital solutions, the Tranquility DAC captures and conveys the very elusive harmonic cues much closer to an analog solution. There is a naturalness that most digital struggles to convey particularly in the treble region. This is our "proof" as compared to most other digital solutions. The sound improvement itself.

Eric H - Merry Christmas to all

[newzooreview]

Merry Christmas, Eric. Thanks for the explanation.

[truant]

Okay, I've had my Tranquility a week.  I meant to post after the first weekend but so much going on right now.  I'm waiting for a plane at the moment so should have a few moments to get into some first impressions.  I'm still just under the 100 hrs Eric suggests for burn in.  I've been using the mhdt Havana for the past six months or so between my MacBook and amp.  I have a pretty simple set up comprised of an LFD Zero integrated amp and Vandersteen 1C loudspeakers.  Other than the laptop I have a Funk Firm Vector turntable.  Cables include a Locus Design Polestar usb, Pure Note Alluvion PCs and ICs and LFD speaker cable. While I liked the Havana I knew I wanted something better, something closer to the sound of my turntable.  Something that might challenge my vinyl experience.  My initial impression is that the Tranquility gets very close.  It'll take some more time to discern how close.  The first thing that struck me listening to this dac is the air, the sense of the space in the music.  The music is much less congested through this dac than through my Havana.  Also, the tone seems more accurate and real.  Saxophones sound great.  Joe Lovano sounded so fresh and new last night. Acoustic bass...wow.  I feel incredibly lucky to have stumbled on this dac when I did.  I haven't heard many dacs and prior to this have only owned the Havana and one of the Channel Island dacs so my experience is limited...here's my plane.  Gotta go.  More soon.

[newzooreview]

I had a very good phone call with Eric Hider today. It's obvious to me that he (and the dB Audio team) are quite knowledgeable about DACs and computer audio. We had a wide-ranging technical discussion about the control of jitter, the advantages of USB (when correctly implemented), why keeping everything at Redbook bit depth and sampling rates can sound better than upsampling/oversampling, the advantages of NOS dacs, and how to setup a Mac to get the best digital out. Much of what we discussed tracked with what I've picked up reading through forums or figured out for myself. And I also learned a few things.

Eric described the process they used to evaluate the choice of components for the Tranquility DAC (blind A/B testing on a variety of systems), and he noted that they went through several dozen capacitors this way to settle on the Mundorf that they use. None of this tells me how the DAC will sound to me, in my system, but I got the clear impression that they have been taking a careful, informed, and rational approach to apply some insights that they have as engineers to come up with a DAC that is unique in design and sound.

In contradiction to my earlier hesitation to buy a DAC that didn't accept hi-resolution files at their native resolution (e.g. without downsampling in the computer), I've gone ahead and ordered a Tranquility DAC. My change of heart results from two things: 1) I read through Danny Ritchie's posts around Audio Circle, and he seems truly impressed with the Tranquility DAC (beyond the other strong reviews that have come in); and 2) I do not reject the idea that with good engineering, Redbook coming from a computer can sound like good vinyl. Sounding like good vinyl is the reason I have been interested in the hi-resolution files. If point #2 turns out to be the case, then I won't miss the ability to play the high resolution files at native resolution. Yes, I do expect that a DAC that plays high-resolution files at their native resolution could end up sounding even better than vinyl, but if I can get 99% of my music sounding up to vinyl playback quality then I can live with that--it is not something that I've heard out of DACs that I've tried so far.

I'll be comparing the Tranquility DAC to a PS Audio DL III (with Cullen Level III modifications), fed from a MacBook via a HiFace (M2Tech) USB to Coax converter. With the burn-in required (about 10 days on 24 hrs./day), and considering my travel schedule in January, I may not have anything concrete to say for 3-4 weeks, but I'll try to report back.

It may turn out that my initial misgivings were well founded, and it may be that the guys at dB Audio are onto something. After speaking with Eric, I'm much more inclined to think that the latter could be the case, but I'll come back when I have some real listening to report on.

These are fun times for computer-based audio! 

[db audio labs]

Hello all,

Thanks to everyone for their support and constructive feedback!

In good a good gesture of faith to Audio Circle members, we will allow you a special discount of $200 off when our MSRP price of $1495 and offer it to all of you for $1295. This applies to AC members only.

To directly answer the statement made by Plink - "it only appears to be a NOS DAC in a box (not exactly groundbreaking information)". So Plink, here ya go;

- Attention to jitter control and reduction is done at every digital pathway with node interactivity in mind.
- The receiver section is optimized with components and pathway optimization that are unlike any other NOS dac.
- The digital NOS chip has further optimizations around it along with I to V stage optimizations totally unique.
- The entire power supply and regulation both have proprietary optimizations unlike anything in the market.
- The output section is truly discrete, with hand matched and trimmed devices that are run for many hours before finalization of the gain stage. It would not be out of place as a gain stage within a $5,000 pre-amp. Truly transparent and sonically natural from top to bottom. (No cheap op amps here!)
- The output Mundorf Supreme capacitors were selected after hundreds of hours listening and evaluating over 60 capacitors of all types and prices in double blind scenarios on many systems with many ears and types of music.
- The direct plated over copper output jacks are considered one of the most transparent sounding jacks ever made (This is actually rare! Just another one of the MANY components where other "high end audio" companies "cheap you guys out" for their own bottom line profits!).
- We actually built a high tech Sabre chip dac to sonically compare the Tranquility against to demonstrate to ourselves that we were not missing anything sonically with our NOS design, actually sounding superior to the Sabre dac verifying the Tranquility's design and it's overall sonic integrity.

These are some of the things that set the Tranquility apart from any other dac design, NOS or otherwise. It has no cost cutting short cuts, no cheap parts or features that "hold it back" sonically. Equal to or better sound for a fraction of the cost of the "big boy" statement level dacs was our design goal. We wanted to shake up the digital world by offering hard core music lovers something they can actually afford, yet get the heroic performance of the most expensive digital for a fraction of the cost. It's all about careful design decisions, years of R & D, innovative optimizations and top quality parts throughout to get this done correctly.

Again though, we are not about the "tech talk"or "parts talk". We are about proving ourselves through actual sonic advancements offering you guys much of the elusive details that analog conveys that digital has comparably lacked. 

Happy Holidays to all!

Eric H