[Rocket]

hello,

later this year i would like to purchase a new turntable i have a stack of records which i haven't played for years.  my last turntable was an acoustic research eb101 which is about on par with the rega 3 turntable.

i've read a fair amount about turntables and would like to go to a mid priced one.  i was looking at the nottingham range and would probably have to go for their entry level which is the interspace.  unfortunately the au dollar is weak and this table retails for $1950 au without an arm, this would of course be at the upper end that my finances could go to.

alternatively there is the rega 25 which sells for $1700 including the rb600 tonearm and i have also considered the music hall mm7 which i think i could have shipped to australia for about $1700 au which would also include the goldring eroica cartridge.

has anyone heard these 3 turntables and do you think there is much of a difference between them?  i've checked out the teres range of turntables but they are out of my range costing $2444 au plus 15% import duties plus postage and insurance.

thank you for your advice.

regards

rod

[Psychicanimal]

I think Doug S. gave you good advice.  

Nobody can make the choice for you and you must do your own auditioning...

I just had someone who has a WADIA transport/DODSON DAC listen to my system this week.  My analog rig w/ the 1200 on steroids impressed him very much.  But, what do I know?  

[Rocket]

hello,

thanks for your comments.  the trouble is that as far as i'm aware music hall do not have any dealers here in australia and nottingham turntables have a dealer which is in sydney.  i live in perth which is 2500 miles from sydney and an audition isn't feasible.

i've been reading a review of the music hall mm7 and it seems like it is a great turntable for the price.  having the tonearm and cartridge supplied is of course a bonus.

anyway i thought i'd ask the question i'm really looking for a step up from the rega 3 and acoustic research turntables i've had in the past.  may'be i'll just have to live dangerously like i have when i did a "leap of faith" and bought  the perpetual technologies p3a dac and aksa 100 amp.

regards

rod

[doug s.]

well, i have no direct experience w/the nottingham, but from what others have said about it, compared to the rega's & music halls, that would be the one to get.  the $64k question, tho, is would it be as good as a hotted-up technics 1200?  

re: any deck that comes w/an arm awreddy - like the rb600 - i'd recommend taking a pass.  (unless yure getting a super deal on a much better used deck, that's awreddy set up).  origin-live sez the o-l modded rb250 is better than any of the other stock rega arms.  and, even better than their own modded rb600 & rb900's.  this, they say, is due to the fact that the rb250 arm, supported from both sides, unlike the 300/600/900 series, responds so much better to their structural mods, that it's still better, even w/lesser bearing quality.  dunno if it's true, but i *do* know my o-l modded rb250 works great on my oracle.  if ya wanna get a more spendy arm, o-l's offerings like the silver, & the silver signature, should be on yer list, not the rb600 or rb900...

good luck,

doug s.

[akshobhyavajra]

well, i have no direct experience w/the nottingham, but from what others have said about it, compared to the rega's & music halls, that would be the one to get.  the $64k question, tho, is would it be as good as a hotted-up technics 1200?  


doug s.

Own both - and yep - well - almost as good as a 1200  

[Psychicanimal]

Own both - and yep - well - almost as good as a 1200  

So, you finally got a 1200.  Welcome to the clan!

Are you using the KABUSA tonearm fluid damper, or was this comparison without it?

I think the Nottingham is the best of the bunch, but still the 1200 will beat it in speed and rotational stability.  One needs to know what to listen for in a TT.  This takes time and a keen ear.  More on that later...

[akshobhyavajra]

I think the Nottingham is the best of the bunch, but still the 1200 will beat it in speed and rotational stability.  One needs to know what to listen for in a TT.  This takes time and a keen ear.  More on that later...

Actually I was kidding.  The Nottingham Interspace with the new 2" (20 lb) platter and the Interspace tonearm (carbon fiber wand) is superior in every aspect to the 1200 - and naturally ought to be (since it's cost is four times higher).  Transient silence is incredible, soundstage is massive and instrument layering is much more dimensional.  

To answer your question - I do not use the KAB dampening device - my 1200 is set up as follows - Shure V15VxMR cart, Sumiko HS 12 Headshell
with OFC Litz Wire Leads and KAB record clamp and 16 oz mat.

Unless one compares both tables in ones own system it's hard to understand how much of an overall difference exists.  One caveat - the tables did use different carts.  The Nottingham employs a DV20 XH, which may or may not be significant in the evaluation.  Both are good carts, though, and the Shure is an excellent tracker which actually has a prefered stylus (LC).  Both tables of course were hooked up to the same phono stage -  Monolithic PS-1 with HC-1b Dual Mono Power Supply.

Motor design philosophy

As to your comment regarding speed and rotational stability I am not sure what you mean.  Clearly the 1200 is designed for fast cueing in a DJ environment.  Hence the powerful, self-correcting motor design with On/Off buttons.

Tom Fletcher, the designer of the Nottingham tables, employs an entirely different philosophy - with emphasis NOT on DJ or broadcast use, but rather for home playback.  The Nottingham uses a low power motor which has to be spun.  The philosophy behind manual operation is that if the motor has to start the table, there would be too much power in the motor when it reached speed. This means resonance; i.e., both the record and tonearm would vibrate (like writing a letter when the table is moving).  The purpose of this type of motor is to gently keep the platter at speed – nothing more.  

Rather than using electronic power to move mass, this deck use mass to maintain momentum – contributing to its overall minimalist design.

Platter

You mentioned rotational stablility - I would suggest that the massive 20 lb high-mass platter is nothing short of a work of art and in synergy with it's minimalist motor provides extreme accuracy and stable rotation.  The table is able to retrieve information which was veiled in the 1200.  This is especially true for classical music, which is more complex and less obvious with Jazz and single instruments.

For more info on my impression of the table here is a link to a little review I did awhile back:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/179442.html

In short both tables have their place in audio, but to compare tables designed with different purposes in mind is not going to yield a conclusive or fair comparison.  In my home audio system the Nottingham offers more of what I look for.  Add to this the capability of an additional arm (or just being able to employ arms like a Graham, VPI, SME or Morch) make it more versitile and desirable for me.

I am still using the 1200, of course (I like the table, because it's a no-brainer plug 'n play) and will do so in the forseeable future.

Best Regards,

~Michael~

[Psychicanimal]

So, let me get this right...

You are comparing basically a *stock* 1200 to the Nottingham:

1) stock interconnects & tonearm wires

2) no tonearm fluid damper

3) no extra isolation measures used

4) Sumiko headshell & headshell wires (which I have).

Is this correct?

And your comparison is made with different mechanical transducers (cartridges):

1) Shure V15 V (MM)
2) DV20 XH (MC)

And the Monolithic phono stage & dual mono power supply (Which I also have).  Any particular power cord used with the power supply?

I'm asking all this prior to getting into the "more on that later..." I promised.

[akshobhyavajra]

So, let me get this right...

You are comparing basically a *stock* 1200 to the Nottingham:

1) stock interconnects & tonearm wires

2) no tonearm fluid damper

3) no extra isolation measures used

4) Sumiko headshell & headshell wires (which I have).

Is this correct?

And your comparison is made with different mechanical transducers (cartridges):

1) Shure V15 V (MM)
2) DV20 XH (MC)

And the Monolithic phono stage & dual mono power supply (Which I also have).  Any particular power cord used with the power supply?

I'm asking all this prior to getting into the "more on that later..." I promised.

Dear Psychicanimal

I compared stock with stock, if you wish.  Isolation was as follows:  both tables were sitting on 1" MDF board.  This was supported by ceramic cones sitting on A.R.T. Q-Dampers graphite compound.  THIS was sitting on a 2" concrete block which was sitting on 1/4" of cork.  This was sitting on another 2" concrete block and another 1/4" of cork.  This was sitting one a 100 lb base on concrete floor (with carpet, of course).  Powercords employed are RWA - FWIW.  And... I also use a vacuum cleaning machine and anti-static gun... as well as several Vans Evers line conditioners - to anticipate the additional question...

Allow me to add that in my 30 plus years as an audio enthusiast I have not had any desire for tinkering or upgrading or DIY, etc ad nauseam.  Hence I basically own stock equipment - powercords and tubes aside.

Thus, messing around with a $70 tonearm seems fruitless - again speaking strictly for myself .  Anyone who likes to unscrew stuff, solder cables, etc... by all means do so.  My point is I would not buy anything more for a table like the 1200, including the KAB fluid damper or something like Cardas or Kimber wires (which are worth more than the whole table).  I'd rather just go out and buy myself something souped up, if you wish to use the terminology - like a SME 10, a Hyperspace or an Aries extended - I am debating between these three - actually (since the Interspace is basically an entry level table, much like the Monolithic is a nice little entry level phono - I recently auditioned the Vinyl One, which is a significant improvement).

Now, by the tone of your reply I already know where this is going - and I have no intention to engage in nitpicking diatribe with what table is better or who has the bigger member.  If it aids the emotional well-being of those experiencing negative feedback of their neurotransmitters because of my personal findings I'll gladly concede that a tricked out 1200 is far superior to any and all tables - including, but certainly not limited to, the Nottingham line of tables - all variables set aside.  How is that?  Saves a lot of agony and testosterone can now be employed elsewhere - like the Super Bowl    

Discussions of A is better than B usually end up in hostility and ill feeling when they follow the before mentioned course, that is, some sort of emotional attachment or allegiance to brand

BTW - I already added the caveat regarding the transducers.  Obviously I am not going to buy an extra Shure or DV 20 to prove some sort of point.  Further, I had the DV and the arm professionally set up by Larry of Hollywood Sound and thus am not about to fiddle with the setup.

One more thought - based on the challanging way you posed your questions I am assuming that you do own both tables as well and have in fact conducted as side by side comparison in your system with the same cart, no?  Just curious, since this condition presumably was imposed on me by you - if I can still read between the lines   .

My sincere apologies if my honest impressions of the equipment or my presence on this board ruffled any feathers.  My intend was to to make a positive contribution based on my experience as owner of both tables - nothing more, nothing less.

It is clear that we have a diametrically opposed Modus Operandi, i.e. Weltanschauung and methodology, and thus it is best to say "De Gustibus Non Est Disputantum"

Regards,

~Michael~

[Psychicanimal]

Dear Psychicanimal

I compared stock with stock, if you wish.  Isolation was as follows:  both tables were sitting on 1" MDF board.  This was supported by ceramic cones sitting on A.R.T. Q-Dampers graphite compound.  THIS was sitting on a 2" concrete block which was sitting on 1/4" of cork.  This was sitting on another 2" concrete block and another 1/4" of cork.  This was sitting one a 100 lb base on concrete floor (with carpet, of course).  Powercords employed are RWA - FWIW.  And... I also use a vacuum cleaning machine and anti-static gun... as well as several Vans Evers line conditioners - to anticipate the additional question...

Allow me to add that in my 30 plus years as an audio enthusiast I have not had any desire for tinkering or upgrading or DIY, etc ad nauseam.  Hence I basically own stock equipment - powercords and tubes aside.

Thus, messing around with a $70 tonearm seems fruitless - again speaking strictly for myself .  Anyone who likes to unscrew stuff, solder cables, etc... by all means do so.  My point is I would not buy anything more for a table like the 1200, including the KAB fluid damper or something like Cardas or Kimber wires (which are worth more than the whole table).  I'd rather just go out and buy myself something souped up, if you wish to use the terminology - like a SME 10, a Hyperspace or an Aries extended - I am debating between these three - actually (since the Interspace is basically an entry level table, much like the Monolithic is a nice little entry level phono - I recently auditioned the Vinyl One, which is a significant improvement).

Now, by the tone of your reply I already know where this is going - and I have no intention to engage in nitpicking diatribe with what table is better or who has the bigger member.  If it aids the emotional well-being of those experiencing negative feedback of their neurotransmitters because of my personal findings I'll gladly concede that a tricked out 1200 is far superior to any and all tables - including, but certainly not limited to, the Nottingham line of tables - all variables set aside.  How is that?  Saves a lot of agony and testosterone can now be employed elsewhere - like the Super Bowl    

Discussions of A is better than B usually end up in hostility and ill feeling when they follow the before mentioned course, that is, some sort of emotional attachment or allegiance to brand

BTW - I already added the caveat regarding the transducers.  Obviously I am not going to buy an extra Shure or DV 20 to prove some sort of point.  Further, I had the DV and the arm professionally set up by Larry of Hollywood Sound and thus am not about to fiddle with the setup.  

My sincere apologies if my honest impressions of the equipment or my presence on this board ruffled any feathers.  My intend was to to make a positive contribution based on my experience as owner of both tables - nothing more, nothing less.

It is clear that we have a diametrically opposed Modus Operandi, i.e. Weltanschauung and methodology, and thus it is best to say "De Gustibus Non Est Disputantum"

Regards,

~Michael~

Micahel:

Your percieved Tone of my posting is not what you think it is .  This is what I meant by "More on that later":

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1042512324&openflup&11&4#11

I am going to answer your questions here in one post, for the benefit of all.

The above post in Audiogon explains my rationale in a non confrontational matter, as you can see.  Good.

I do not see high end in terms of equipment cost.  People who do that end up one day having *serious* reality checks, like the $100 AIWA changer the Chicago Audio Society calls the WADIA killers.  I say this: "I am high end."  That's what my signature below means.  Read this posting and then look at the poster's system:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1043102423&openflup&14&4#14

My 1200 based analog rig sounds really really good, I can assure you.

I have owned Technics 1700, Yamaha P-20, and have heard SOTA vaccuums, Linn Basik & Sondek, Rega 2/3, Music Hall, Project Perspective, Technics SP-10, Thorens (?), Micro Seiki...

Having worked in audio stores and being broke, I learned to tweak and tune my gear out of the nature of the job, financial necessity and a nomadic lifestyle.  I wasted a 1200 tonearm trying to change the wires.  Would I try again?  Yes.  I have good hearing memory and manual skills so nobody has to "professionally" set up my TT.  It would be easy for me to compare the two decks.  As for the fluid damper, it is not a tweak, but a significant improvement.  It would not be fair to compare the Nottingham's carbon fiber tonearm with the 1200's $70 tonearm without the fluid damper.  It's very easy to set up.  Even my little sister could do it.  Here's a very good review of the *device*:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/frr.pl?raccs&1&ctg&0&50&

I am VERY impressed by your isolation scheme, but it does little for the 1200's main weakness: lateral isolation.  I have a plan to address this, using non resonant Caribbean Moca wood.

Why am I going through all this trouble?  For the same reason you have a 1200.  Simplicity & convenience, but getting the highest possible performance.  If the SP-10's were still made that's what I'd have.

I hope I have answered all your questions.  If I missed something is not to purposedly dodge it.  Please remind me and it will be addressed.

I appreciate your "comparison" of the two tables.  Although not entirely valid, it is the very first attempt I see posted at being objective instead of opinionated.  Keep up the good work,

Francisco

[akshobhyavajra]

Having worked in audio stores and being broke, I learned to tweak and tune my gear out of the nature of the job, financial necessity and a nomadic lifestyle.  I wasted a 1200 tonearm trying to change the wires.  Would I try again?  Yes.  I have good hearing memory and manual skills so nobody has to "professionally" set up my TT.  It would be easy for me to compare the two decks.  As for the fluid damper, it is not a tweak, but a significant improvement.  It would not be fair to compare the Nottingham's carbon fiber tonearm with the 1200's $70 tonearm without the fluid damper.  It's very easy to set up.  

Why am I going through all this trouble?  For the same reason you have a 1200.  Simplicity & convenience, but getting the highest possible performance.  If the SP-10's were still made that's what I'd have.

I hope I have answered all your questions.  If I missed something is not to purposedly dodge it.  Please remind me and it will be addressed.

I appreciate your "comparison" of the two tables.  Although not entirely valid, it is the very first attempt I see posted at being objective instead of opinionated.

Francisco,

I applaud your interest in the mechanics of the 1200 and wanting to solve some of the engineering problems associated with the stock design.  Since it is my daily job to "tinker" (if you will) I prefer to go along with the existing proven engineering designs by men like Harry Weisfeld, Tom Fletcher, Lloyd Walker et al. - makes life a bit easier.

I also feel that despite "budget values" quality of workmanship and materials, research and development, and a limited market drive up prices - hence "high end audio" - meaning items exhibiting engineering excellence, quality of craftmanship, years of development and experience, are often cost prohibitive - but just as often worth their price nonetheless.  In addition it gets to the point when money just does not matter all that much (can't take it with you anyway).  

If I want an exceptionally smooth riding automobile I'll choose a Mercedes or BMW (dare I say Rolls Royce or Bentley ) over a Honda; if I want a fine road bicycle I'll choose something like a Waterford or Colnago frame with a Campy groupset over a Huffy; if I want a quality firearm I'll choose a Colt or Smith over a Taurus and in like manner I'll choose a manufacturer of audio components based on reputation for quality, design and flawless performance and often an appearace which ought to be pleasing to the eye.

One reaches a point in life where he or she prefers to pay for certain services rather than doing the work.  It's not a matter of competence or ability.  This then allows for more time of active listening and other enjoyable ventures.

Unanswered aspects of the before mentioned post don't really matter in the grand scheme of things.  Good luck with fine-tuning the 1200.

Best Regards,

~Michael~


PS I do hold a different view with regard to the order of the nomenclature importance.  Though a quality phono stage is of great importance the quality of the transducer and the arm which is used is equally important.  Actually I would take it a step further and say the transducer is the most critical aspect. Plinth, platter and motor ought not to be neglected, either.  I would prefer to use my current setup and invest in a better cart first (Helikon comes to mind) and subsequently upgrade the Monolithic to a Vinyl One or perhaps a Herron VTPH-1MC.  In the end we all wish to accomplish the same thing though - that is to enjoy the music dearest to us.  Omnes viae Romam ducunt

[Rocket]

hello michael,

i'll keep away from the discussions of the merits between the technics 1200 and nottingham.

my question when you bought the nottingham interspace how much was the retail price?  i noticed you quoted $750 us which seems to be a pretty good price.  i have contacted the dealer in sydney and his rrp is $1950 au plus shipping and handling to perth.

i wonder if it might be better to look at dealers in the us if they can provide me with a 240 v 50 hz version.

anyway thanks for the input.

ps btw i bought a nad phonostage and it is shockingly bad compared to an old ar cambridge integrated amp with phono stage.

[akshobhyavajra]

hello michael,

my question when you bought the nottingham interspace how much was the retail price?  i noticed you quoted $750 us which seems to be a pretty good price.  i have contacted the dealer in sydney and his rrp is $1950 au plus shipping and handling to perth.

i wonder if it might be better to look at dealers in the us if they can provide me with a 240 v 50 hz version.

anyway thanks for the input.

ps btw i bought a nad phonostage and it is shockingly bad compared to an old ar cambridge integrated amp with phono stage.

G'day Rod,

First, sorry to hear about the NAD - never listened to it but I take your word for it.  Actually, the NAD is nothing more than a B Tech BT-926 MM with the NAD name on it and thus costs a bit more   .  

The price of $750 was actually hard coded when I wrote the review into the AA database - so I was unable to correct it.  The retail price for the table is $1200 US and the Interspace arm is $750 US retail - I believe.  The retail package deal is about $ 1,800.00 US.  Now, I suspect that many US dealers will offer a more cost-effective deal - regardless of what arm you may choose (unless you want to use your current arm).

I was able to get a better price, since I purchased the table, arm and cart together.  It appears the more you buy, the better the deal gets   As far as dealers go I can point you to Larry Weinstein of Hollywood Sound in Florida.  He has a good reputation on audiogon.com and is a competetive and fair dealer for Nottingham, VPI and others.  His number is (877) 921-1408 and you can e-mail him at larry@hwdsound.com

Drop him a note - perhaps the two of you can work out something that is mutually beneficial.

Regards,

~Michael~

[Rocket]

hello,

well it seems that if you figure in 58 cents to the us dollar, shipping and handling, plus tax and import duty then $1950 au isn't too bad.

anyway thank you for the information i will contact hollywood sound and see where i go.  i did notice that music hall will have a new top flight table out soon and may also look at that.

thanks for the advice.

regards

rod

[akshobhyavajra]

hello,

i did notice that music hall will have a new top flight table out soon and may also look at that.

thanks for the advice.

regards

rod

Nottingham just released their new Horizon - a more popular price point.  here is a pic:



When you contact Larry ask him about it as well as the new Music Hall - he deals with both...

Godspeed - and let me know what you end up with -  I'll be curious  

~Michael~

[Beezer]

Michael Fremer gave the Nottingham Horizon a nice review in this month's Stereophile.  It also seems to be designed with a Rega 250 in mind, which is basically what I planned on using with the Innerspace.  According to Mikey's review the Horizon table retails for $800 and is packaged with the Rega 250 for $1k.  I need to check out my dealers trade up policies.  Maybe I'll start with the Horizon and then move up to the Innerspace.

Decisions, decisions...

Beez

[Rocket]

hello,

i didn't know that nottingham had released a new turntable.  i'll check out the pricing $1000 us seems not too bad if it includes the rb250.  i think the rega 25 retails for about $1200 in the us, i wonder how they would compare?

the rega 25 retails for $1700 au which includes the rb600 and the interspace is $1950 plus an arm (the interspace arm is $1450au).

anyway thanks for the heads up i'll check out the new horizon table.

regards

rod

btw do you have the website address for nottingham turntables?  thanks

[Beezer]

I snagged an used Nottingham Innerspace off Audiogon!!  It should ship today, so in theory, I should have it a week from now.  

Oh fickle UPS gods, please deliver my baby safely...

Beez

[akshobhyavajra]

I snagged an used Nottingham Innerspace off Audiogon!!  It should ship today, so in theory, I should have it a week from now.  

Oh fickle UPS gods, please deliver my baby safely...

Beez

Congrads, Beez!  I'm happy for you.  Are you planning to install your current arm or did the table include one?

~Michael~

[JoshK]

Beez,

Tell the seller to pack it WAY overly so.  If he demands more money to do so, pay it.  I recently shipped my MMF-5 to a circle dude and UPS managed to bust the cover and a stylus in the transit.  Now I have to go through all the hassles of getting them to pay.  I swear even though you insure your packages and pack them securely they rarely ever fess up and pay you.  Its a big scam I think.