[Alexdad54]

I have also asked the following questions over on the beginners circle but now that I have officially joined the Salk Owners Circle (albeit still in-waiting for the beauties to arrive) I was  hoping to get some advice from this circle as well.  I had a very nice chat with Jim Salk yesterday and the result was that even without having a chance at an audition I'm purchasing the pair of ST's that Jim had on hand (uncoloured as yet as the customer changed their mind after initial construction was begun). Now that I've come to this point I'd like to ask for opinions re the right amp and wiring for the ST's. I already have a passive Audio Alchemy DLC for a pre (bought from another AC member) and would appreciate any advice on the right amplifier, preferably tube or, if ss, tube-like. Jim recommended the Jolida 202b or 302b integrated. I've looked at the various rebuilds of Dynaco ST-70's and a used TAD-60 and am also considering the SS TAD 125.
For wiring I was thinking of AntiCables or Blue Jean speaker wires and IC's but have also heard that the Grovers are very good.
Appreciate any and all thoughts.
cheers,
Dave (apologies for the typos, now corrected!)

[K Shep]

First of all, Welcome to the Club!

I own a Parasound A21 amp and partner it with a Conrad Johnson tube preamp and I could not be happier. The SS amp and tube preamp concept works for me in my system in my room.  IMO a preamp is the more critical component in a system rather than an amp.  So I have put more of my investment in my preamp.  You have given a couple of examples of which I am familiar with but I am not clear on the price points of the examples.  Please give a budget that you are willing to work around.  Many of the Salk guys utilize Van Alstine gear around here and AVA has a Circle you may also check out for advise.  A quick list of amps that I would recommend looking at that you could find used:

Parasound
Van Alstine
Conrad Johnson
Cary
VTL

Kirk

[irishsammy]

Yes, welcome!  The wait is excruciating but the payoff with ST's is indescribable.

As far as an amp, I currently have an older Parasound HCA-750a that puts out 125wpc into 4 ohms driving my ST's with dome tweets.  It's a fantastic amp in all situations (HT and music) and for the price I paid for it ($200 on Agon) it's an absolute steal.  My pre is the infamous new Emotiva USP-1 and I have nothing but good things to say about all 3 pieces of my system. 

With all the high dollar gear people feed their Salks with, I'm kinda glad I found a diamond in the rough with the 750a.    

[K Shep]

I was going to stay away from the cabling question, but I gave it some thought and you are not opposed to used gear, perhaps you wont be opposed to used cables.  As irishsammy suggested check out Audiogon if you haven't already.  You can find great deals on good cable (speaker and IC).  IMO if you are going to spend money on a good amp and a good preamp you should do the same with the innerconnects.  Speaker cable's are a different story, for me.  I use AudioQuest GBC speaker cable for my ST's that I purchased from Audiogon for $45 - 15' pair.

Kirk

[Alexdad54]

Thanks for the welcome, much appreciated!
I also appreciate the suggestions. I should have been a bit more clear, I hope to get an amp for under $900 new or used, hopefully one that is either tube or has a "tube-like" sound. The Tube Audio Design TAD-60 looks like a beaut and is on A'gon for $650. I could get a new TAD-125 "Hibachi" for $999 delivered and it supposedly it has a very tube-like sound. I'll be talking to someone tomorrow who has experience with both amps. I am not tied to them though so all the ideas you've already given to me a re very welcome. I bought the preamp (the Audio Alchemy DLC) when I was originally thinking of Maggies, in hindsight an error as I should have got the speakers first) but all reviews say that it is a very neutral high-quality preamp and worth keeping hence my interest in the tube aspects of the amp.
Re the cables, I will check A'gon and here a bit more thoroughly but so far it seems that choosing the right cable is even more difficult than choosing the speakers! 
So far the front runners seem to be Cardas Reference, Audioquest and Grover (in no order) but all ideas gratefully received!

[drphoto]

As far as cables, I don't think you can beat the Reality Cables from Gregg Strailey for the price. I'm not a Salk owner, but I'm pretty sure we tried these on Marbles HT3's a few years ago and they compared favorably to products costing much more. In my own limited test the only thing that trumped them were the top of the line Sonorans which cost maybe 10 to 15x more. Of course opinions on cables are like, well....you what...everyone's got one!

BTW: I was very very impressed w/ the Salk HT3. I'm sure the ST is a wonderful speaker too.

[Big Red Machine]

I have also asked the following questions over on the beginners circle but now that I have officially joined the Salk Owners Circle (albeit still in-waiting for the beauties to arrive) I was  hoping to get some advice from this circle as well.  I had a very nice chat with Jim Salk yesterday and the result was that even without having a chance at an audition I'm purchasing the pair of ST's that Jim had on hand (uncoloured as yet as the customer changed their mind after initial construction was begun). Now that I've come to this point I'd like to ask for opinions re the right amp and wiring for the ST's. I already have a passive Audio Alchemy DLC for a pre (bought from another AC member) and would appreciate any advice on the right amplifier, preferably tube or, if ss, tube-like. Jim recommended the Jolida 202b or 302b integrated. I've looked at the various rebuilds of Dynaco ST-70's and a used TAD-60 and am also considering the SS TAD 125.
For wiring I was thinking of AntiCables or Blue Jean speaker wires and IC's but have also heard that the Grovers are very good.
Appreciate any and all thoughts.
cheers,
Dave (apologies for the typos, now corrected!)

Here's my opinion:

You could use the Dynaco ST70 listed on Audiogon for around $600 with the Van Alstine reference and really enjoy it if you read user accolades.  I've had the Hibachis and they are wimpy.  Tubed, but not inspiring.

I've tried so many cables on the market I should be put away.  Use a good quality wire and don't spend a lot here right now.  Used cables are fine.  Avoid silver or silver plated copper wires for now.  Copper is "neutral" in my book and you need to establish a sound first.  BJC are fine, Signal Cable, heck, even used Audioquest or something with brand recognition that you can sell easy when you want to move up.  I'm making my own cables now and really enjoy the build and the sound is fantastic using gold plated copper wire.

I have a Wyred ST250 for sale but it is not tubey.  An old Hafler is pretty dang smooth and a good buy in the 9000 series or XL series.

I'm not staying with them long term, but I can make you a set of magnet wire 13 gauge speaker cables just about any length you need.

[DMurphy]

I love playing the role of damp sponge, so here goes.  I think the really challenging question would be to come up with an amp that doesn't work well with the ST's.  I haven't found one yet.  If you're absolutely sold on tubes, then I would recommend Frank's take on the ST70, which I heard at my get-together in July driving the ST's.   I'm not sure the sound was "tubey," what it was very clean with lots of reserve.   Wire, interconnects?  I go to the Shack. 

[revrob]

I used Blue Jean Cables for my speakers the represent Great value. Audiogon is definitely the place to look for some good deals but I won't count out eBay as a source as I have found some diamonds.

Good luck.

[Alexdad54]

Thanks for all the input, very useful and also makes fun reading! 
Big Red Machine, would you mind expanding a little on the technical term "wimpy" that you used for the TAD 125 Hibachi? It's actually the first time I've seen any comment to that effect about these monoblocks and it makes me very curious.
DMurphy (I don't know you well enough to call you "Damp"...  ), it's not that I'm stuck on the tube idea at all, it's just that during my recent auditions I found that whenever a SS amp was used (Classe, MF, etc.) I found the sound hard and fatiguing on my older ears, when switched to tube amps, the sound was much more engaging. I  have also been looking at Frankl's hybrids, there's are two  FET Valve 350 EX and EXR's on Audiogon in my price range but I have no idea what kind of sound they offer.
Re cables, I'm looking at used BJC's, Reality Cables and Grover Huffman's, which sound intriguing but the latter use some silver mixed in.....

[Paul K.]

I have a recommendation that will be priced a bit higher than your upper limit, but I think this amp would have a great chance to provide you the "tubey" sound you want with the control that is typical of a good SS amp.  It's the Quad 909 which puts out 140 wpc into 8 ohms and 250 wpc into 4 ohms. It has been highly regarded by several reviewers with its primary forte being its tube-like midrange.  You can buy a brand new one with a 3-year warranty for $990 (list is $1500) from "Underwoodwally" at Underwood Hi Fi via Audiogon.  I've been using one for a couple of years, after having a couple of Meridian 557 amps, and I'm extremely happy with its sound driving my homebrew ML-TLs using Usher midwoofers and a BG planar tweeter that have a cabinet design very similar to that I designed for the HT2 TLs as well as identical F3s.

Thanks for all the input, very useful and also makes fun reading! 
Big Red Machine, would you mind expanding a little on the technical term "wimpy" that you used for the TAD 125 Hibachi? It's actually the first time I've seen any comment to that effect about these monoblocks and it makes me very curious.
DMurphy (I don't know you well enough to call you "Damp"...  ), it's not that I'm stuck on the tube idea at all, it's just that during my recent auditions I found that whenever a SS amp was used (Classe, MF, etc.) I found the sound hard and fatiguing on my older ears, when switched to tube amps, the sound was much more engaging. I  have also been looking at Frankl's hybrids, there's are two  FET Valve 350 EX and EXR's on Audiogon in my price range but I have no idea what kind of sound they offer.
Re cables, I'm looking at used BJC's, Reality Cables and Grover Huffman's, which sound intriguing but the latter use some silver mixed in.....

[R Swerdlow]

Alexdad54

Dennis and Jim have always said that the SongTowers are easily driven by any amp delivering an honest 50 wpc.  I heard that same Van Alstine rebuild (the Ultimate 70 http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/amplifier/ultimate70.htm) that Dennis describes.  It was very nice.  AVA claims it does 33 wpc, so that lowers the number from 50 watts for the ST.  See the web link for details and cost.

I now have heard STs successfully driven by a variety of ss amps and now one tube amp.  None of them had any problems.  I myself use an older B&K EX4420 amp (200 wpc @ 8 ohms) to drive my STs.  They are solid state amps often described as having a "tube-like sound", although I am not sure what is meant by that.  Amps like these often sell on Audiogon for well within your budget.

[Big Red Machine]

The TADs:  no b@ll$

I would move on from them.  Paul's a great guy, but I returned the amps pdq.

I just sold my DAC 4800A locally and it was a monster amp.  But it was blown away, in this system config, by 1980's Hafler amps.  The mid bass came up, the top smoothed over nicely (95 db efficient Archos), and the midrange is just dripping with textures.  At one time in my life I owned 5 Haflers and used them in a HT/Stereo setup.

I can let you borrow one if you'd like to try it.  I actually have 3 with 2 in mono and the other on the HT surrounds.

I learned from the folks here that a tube pre and SS amp is a pretty reliable and pleasing combo.  It's hard to beat that mix.  But if your ears like the tube amps, then go for it.  Absolute highest confidence you would like Frank's amps, but they are not tubey in sound.  He doesn't make the tubes work very hard so they last a long time and also do not add distortion to the output as much as you might suspect.  More realistic and true I think owners would say.

[mca]

The Unison Research Unico is a great sounding hybrid integrated if you ever want to ditch the DLC and go that route. Along those lines, the new Peachtree Audio Nova is a killer piece also.

[Alexdad54]

There are 2 FET Valve 350's on A'gon right now, an EX and an EXR, both  at a pretty god price. Is there any major difference between the two? No Ultimate 70's in sight yet....

Re the Unison Unico, that's too far above my budget limit I'm afraid......r the QUAD 909, it  has its suporters and detractors, I'm also a bit leery re going pure SS based on my recent experiences......

[Paul K.]

I really don't see how anyone could complain about the Quad 909, at least not based on my experience.  I am not a supporter of tube-based equipment to be perfectly honest, but I know that they appeal to many.  I wouldn't describe the sound of the 909 truly tubey, though, more like smooth and easy to listen to, but it doesn't lack dynamics or extension at either end, nor is it bothered by the typical impedance swings that speakers present.  Oh, I drive my 909 with a Linn Wakonda SS preamp.

I do need to correct an error: Underwood Hi Fi has one 909 currently listed for $1090, not $990 as I stated (that $990 price is for a 99CDP-2 player I recommended to someone else a couple of weeks ago).

There are 2 FET Valve 350's on A'gon right now, an EX and an EXR, both  at a pretty god price. Is there any major difference between the two? No Ultimate 70's in sight yet....

Re the Unison Unico, that's too far above my budget limit I'm afraid......r the QUAD 909, it  has its suporters and detractors, I'm also a bit leery re going pure SS based on my recent experiences......

[mca]

Re the Unison Unico, that's too far above my budget limit I'm afraid

While there are none for sale on Audiogon now, they can be found selling used for under 1k.

[avahifi]

Since you asked, to answer the 350EX vs 350EXR question.  The "R" stands for multistage regulated power supply, separate active regulated power supplies for each tube heater and each tube plate. The "EX" stands for Exicon power mos-fets, replacing the original Hitachi devices.

The "Double" circuits use Exicon double die devices each of which are two power mos-fets in one case with twice the current and power handling capability as the standard devices. These add $22 each to the cost of a new amp, $44 each for upgrades.

The EXR is done with a completely new power supply board and significant audio circuit changes.  It is a usefully better amplifier in all respects.

The difference in upgrade costs from a 350EXR to an Ultra 350 is $699, from a 350EX is $799, from a much older 350hc is $1099.  Upgrades include a new AVA three year parts and labor warranty. The Ultra involves further audio and power supply operation upgrades and is current production.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[richidoo]

A really sweet power amp near your budget (used) is the Mccormack DNA125. Solid state, but extremely refined. I am a certified tube nut but I would consider owning an amp from DNA series, it's that good. With a nice tube preamp it is hard to beat for all around great performer. This amp will not leave any aspect of Song Tower performance on the table. And there is upgrade path for it too. Like this one

PrimaLuna Dialogue series (not the cheaper Prologue) is worth a look for a nice power amp, but it is relatively new, I haven't seen any used Dialogue power amps. Only integrateds.

If you really want tube power amp at your stated budget, consider selling your preamp and getting an integrated tube amp with preamp built in, some have remote too. I can recommend Cayin A88T or A100T, PrimaLuna Dialogue 2, etc.  Get KT88s instead of EL34 tubes for this speaker. Another thing to consider, is that in a year if you're still got the bug you will outgrow a cheap tube amp, and be looking for something better. The McCormack looks a lot better deal from that perspective.

There are tons of tube amps on Agon, browse, then google for reviews and/or ask here. You'll learn alot. Meanwhile use a receiver or something until you're sure. The song towers will amaze even with midfi amp for a while. The power amp is SO important. Good luck!

[Nels Ferre]

The SongTowers sound fantastic here mated with the Bella Extreme 3205 MkII Signature (60 WPC with KT88 tubes.)

I wouldn't worry too terribly much about amplifier power: the ST's sound incredible with the Manley Labs Stingray integrated- even in triode mode (18 WPC.) As long as your listening room isn't large and you don't try for "too loud" (think live bar band) the Stingray/ST combo is amazing.

Especially with the Songtowers the quality of the watts you have is more important than the number of them.