[JonnyFive]

After having the Exotica 3 for about 2 months I'm ready to post listening impressions.   

Setup: Marantz AV8801 and Parasound A21, Blue Jeans XLRs and cables.  Room is hard wood floors over a crawl space with rug, plaster walls, 65” TV right in between the speakers, and speakers too close to the wall.  Seated a hair over 8’ away. 

I owned the Soundscape 8s for about 1 year, and I did the Mundorf cap upgrades.  I have owned the Exotica 3s for about 2 months  (and will own them for a long time), and I did Sonicap upgrades.

The Soundscape 8 (SS8s) are incredible speakers.  Off axis response is amazing, bass was better than I could have asked for, RAAL is detailed without being harsh, the midrange is accurate (the open back is also a nice feature).  They are very open and airy with the midrange in the semi-open configuration (which is what I preferred).  With a bigger room and a proper setup, I’m certain the SS8s would disappear entirely: they are almost holographic.  The only way I can describe it is that they don’t sound like speakers at all, they just flawlessly reproduce sound with no commentary of their own.

Sitting 8’ away from them in a hard room with my modest solid-state electronics and poor recordings, they were a little too lively (stiff?) for my preference.  They showed the errors in virtually all of my recordings.  If only I was into this Diana Krall I hear so much about instead of George Lynch’s outrageous guitar solos.  I just wanted speakers I could relax to with humble electronics, sometimes poor recordings, and a glass of Balvenie Doublewood.  I thought a soft midrange and a traditional dome tweeter might do the trick.  Enter the Exotica 3 (E3s).

The E3s are also incredible speakers, and I will not say they are better or worse than the SS8s. They are more or less suited to particular tastes and tasks.  The E3s are detailed, but it’s a subtler detail.  The E3s romance you into the details, whereas the SS8s presented the details more matter-of-factly and upfront.  The midrange is, in my opinion, the centerpiece of the E3s.  What a feast: vocals sound better than I’ve ever heard.  The midrange reproduction is so realistic I just fall into the recording, next thing I know it’s 5:00 PM and I forgot to go to work.

They are neutral, and just like the SS8s they do not offer any commentary on the material.  They do not perform the disappearing act like the SS8s, but I actually enjoy this since my room isn’t treated.  With more toe-in I’m removing more of the effects of the room and increasing the ratio of direct to reflected sound.  My left SS8 sounded sharper than the right, since the left had a wall and window near it and the right opened into the dining room. 

There is something about the SEAS T35 tweeter and W8 midwoofer combination that is simply magical.  The integration of those two drivers is absolutely seamless, certainly the best I’ve ever heard (although of course I haven’t heard everything).  Is it the alnico?  Perhaps, but Dennis certainly deserves a pat on the back.

The one place that without doubt I have to give the advantage to the E3s over the SS8s is in the bass department: the Rythmik F8 powered woofer section is fantastic.  It opens up more options for power amp choices (and tubes), and the ability to adjust the bass to taste/room loading is a welcome feature.  I have so much energy sub-30 Hz that the option to set the rumble filter to “high” really tightened up the low end (18 dB/octave rolloff starting at 28 Hz).  I am now officially spoiled by powered woofers: fast and deep without ever calling attention to itself.  How did I ever live without a powered bass section?  It literally laughs at everything I throw at it.  Pacific Rim/Tron Legacy sound as good in 2.0 as they do in 5.1 with the SVS SB13 in the mix. 

The Exotica 3s have raised some thoughts on my end. First, I was trying to find a way to make the SS8s sound more analog, but I don’t have the same desire with the E3s.  While I’m sure the E3s sound great with a tube amp or tube pre-amp, I think I’d be happy with a Class A solid state amp and SS pre-amp.  Second, is there something to having a single driver reproduce most of the vocal range? Maybe.  I just can’t get over how enticing the midrange reproduction is.  Lastly, in the future I may open up the E3s disconnect the internal connection from the binding post to the plate amp.  Use dual sub outputs from the preamp into the plate amps, and run the mid-tweeter section through a nice Class A amp.  Then I can tweak on the bass section without affecting the signal sent to the upper portion.

In Summary:

I have a small, hard room and relatively modest electronics.  The E3s are the right choice for me for their overall presentation, but both are incredible speakers.  I believe I haven’t even scratched the surface of the performance either of these speakers have to offer. 

Every speaker is a compromise, but wherever those compromises were made with the E3s, I certainly don’t mind.  There’s nothing else I could ask for in the bass department.  The midrange is as good as I’ve ever heard, and the T35 tweeter is smooth and perfectly integrated with the W8.

I’m done searching.  A big thanks to Jim and crew for these amazing speakers.

Lean towards the Soundscape 8 if you like:

Detail retrieval, a lively performance, disappearing speakers, wide off-axis response, the option to open up the midrange or leave it closed, $4k extra dollars in your pocket, a speaker you could be happy with for life.

Lean towards the Exotica 3 if you like:

A seductive presentation, an indescribably good midrange, a powered woofer section with bass-tweaking options, a more sensitive speaker, $4k fewer dollars in your pocket, a speaker you could be happy with for life. 

-Jon

[Tomy2Tone]

Great write up Jon!

I definitely get the sense of your room, preferences and why you chose the E3. Well done!

[DMurphy]

Hmmmm    Sounds like we need the top half of the SS8 grafted onto the bottom half of the E3. 

[Big Red Machine]

Now go put $30,000 of electronics and cabling behind them and see what you get Jonny! Off the charts performance. woo hoo

(The Marantz and Parasound are not doing you any favors at the present. I would bet on the bright side between the two. As is often said, you don't know what you don't know because you have not tried it yet! Maybe someday you will.  Jim always costs me money because I have to keep upping my game in all the other components to keep up - damn him.)

[Big Red Machine]

Hmmmm    Sounds like we need the top half of the SS8 grafted onto the bottom half of the E3.

I am not the first I suppose, but I did whisper that into Jim's ear in Chicago, about that possible pairing.

[JonnyFive]

Hmmmm    Sounds like we need the top half of the SS8 grafted onto the bottom half of the E3.

A great question.  I wonder what that would do to the price?  I was really happy with the bass of the SS8s, but I'm even happier now, if that's even possible.

I've thought about grafting the bottom half of the E3 onto EVERYTHING.

[Tomy2Tone]

I am not the first I suppose, but I did whisper that into Jim's ear in Chicago, about that possible pairing.

This was Jim's response when asked about this in another thread...maybe he's thought more on it since

I have given this some thought.  The problem is, the Accuton mid in the SS8's needs to be crossed higher.  I am not sure if the powered woofer section would work that well crossed that high.  The drivers were not designed to play that high and the servo circuitry would have to be re-designed to allow the amp to play that high.  With the current set-up, it is a no-go.

-Jim

[JonnyFive]

This was Jim's response when asked about this in another thread...maybe he's thought more on it since

I have given this some thought.  The problem is, the Accuton mid in the SS8's needs to be crossed higher.  I am not sure if the powered woofer section would work that well crossed that high.  The drivers were not designed to play that high and the servo circuitry would have to be re-designed to allow the amp to play that high.  With the current set-up, it is a no-go.

-Jim

Right, I recall this statement now.  The Accuton has to be crossed relatively high (300 Hz?  500 Hz?) and the dual F8 plays up to 250 Hz.

If I had the SS8s to do over again, which honestly I might do, I'd swap out the Accuton mid driver to a soft mid driver. 

Dennis: If one did a 4" Audio Tech mid (for example, I'm just spitballing here) on the SS8 1) Could it play low enough to make the dual F8 bass section happy and 2) Could the mid still have an adjustable open back?

[JonnyFive]

Now go put $30,000 of electronics and cabling behind them and see what you get Jonny! Off the charts performance. woo hoo

(The Marantz and Parasound are not doing you any favors at the present. I would bet on the bright side between the two. As is often said, you don't know what you don't know because you have not tried it yet! Maybe someday you will.  Jim always costs me money because I have to keep upping my game in all the other components to keep up - damn him.)

I'm trying to do this whole "quit my job and live a recluse life in the mountains (with my Salk speakers)" thing, and I'm afraid 30k in electronics would set me back from that goal! But you're certainly right. 

[Rocket]

Hi Johnny,

Thank you for your comments regarding the E3's and SS8's.  Have you thought about upgrading your electronics?  I'm using Spread Spectrum Technologies Ampzilla 2000 second edition amps and Red Wine Audio Isabella preamplifier.  Absolutely superb sound with my Salk Sound HT3's.  Unfortunately I can't afford an upgrade so the HT3's will have to do for me.

Btw Spread Spectrum Technologies have come out with a new designed Son of Ampzilla amplifier and Theobe II preamplifier for combo price of $6000.  Supposed to be very close in performance to the Ampzilla 2000 and Ambrosia preamplifier.  My Ampzilla sounds the best of SS and tube imo.  You could also probably negotiate the price with Underwood hifi.

Regards Rod

[Tomy2Tone]

If I had the SS8s to do over again, which honestly I might do, I'd swap out the Accuton mid driver to a soft mid driver. 

Dennis: If one did a 4" Audio Tech mid (for example, I'm just spitballing here) on the SS8 1) Could it play low enough to make the dual F8 bass section happy and 2) Could the mid still have an adjustable open back?

I've wondered about this as well...at least the audio tech mid possibility.

[SCompRacer]

High marks on your write up Jon! I went back to the Salk room a couple times at Axpona to listen to the E3's. Then I picked up an ARC Reference 3 pre amp and I'm very happy with my SS8's now. Congrats on your upgrade, and I wish you great listening!

[jsalk]

Jon, thanks for posting your thoughts on the differences between these speaker designs.  I am asked about the differences all the time and it is a difficult question to answer.

With most speakers I have heard (ours and others), I can generally find something I would like to improve upon.  With the SS8's, I can't really identify anything I would change. And that is rare for me. They simply do everything well and faithfully reproduce whatever is fed to them...good or bad.

The E3's, on the other hand, grab me emotionally in a way that is hard to explain. The more time you listen to them, the more you realize this (and it is not necessarily something you will pick up on in a short listening session at an audio show).

I spent quite a bit of time discussing this with both Seas engineers and Olav Arntzen, the president of Seas (in separate sessions).  They all offered the same explanation: it was the Alnico magnets (which work differently than ferrous magnets) that were responsible for this driver attribute.  This made sense to me since most of the classic drivers preferred by vintage audio buffs tend to have Alnico magnets. Whether the magnets are or are not responsible for what I experience with these speakers, the fact remains that there is an emotional connection to the music which I find very appealing.

As for mating the E3's woofer section with the SS8's midrange and tweeter sections, as stated above, this will not work.  The E3's woofer section will simply not play high enough to mate with the Accuton mid in the SS8's. Of course, Accuton does manufacture a number of alternative drivers that could easily play low enough.  And that may be something worth exploring.  But I am guessing I would like to use a different woofer in that potential design as well.

The paper cones in the current E3 woofer section mate very well with the Seas Exotic W8.  But the timbre match may not work as well with an Accuton ceramic driver.  I would think that a 12" aluminum woofer would be a better match.

So, chances are if we explore something like this in the future, it would not only have a different Accuton midrange/midbass driver, but a different woofer as well.  At least that is my current thinking on the subject.

Again, thanks Jon for laying out your thoughts.  I think they will be helpful to anyone trying to make a decision between these two designs.

- Jim 

[Saturn94]

Nice write up, Jon. 

[Tomy2Tone]

The E3's, on the other hand, grab me emotionally in a way that is hard to explain. The more time you listen to them, the more you realize this (and it is not necessarily something you will pick up on in a short listening session at an audio show).

I find this interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've seen here on AC there are 4 sets of E3's that have been shipped out and out of that 4 only BRM has heard the E3's at a show and then placed an order. Whereas the other 3 never heard them until they arrived at their home, which obviously gives them plenty of time to digest what they're hearing. Just an observation.

If the E3 will indeed be at the Newport Show then I look forward to at least catching a glimpse of what they can do.

*Can't remember if Jon heard them before ordering...*

[fsimms]

Setup: Marantz AV8801 and Parasound A21, Blue Jeans XLRs and cables.  Room is hard wood floors over a crawl space with rug, plaster walls, 65” TV right in between the speakers, and speakers too close to the wall.  Seated a hair over 8’ away. 
 ...

The Soundscape 8 (SS8s) are incredible speakers.  Off axis response is amazing, bass was better than I could have asked for, RAAL is detailed without being harsh, the midrange is accurate (the open back is also a nice feature).  They are very open and airy with the midrange in the semi-open configuration (which is what I preferred).  With a bigger room and a proper setup, I’m certain the SS8s would disappear entirely: they are almost holographic.  The only way I can describe it is that they don’t sound like speakers at all, they just flawlessly reproduce sound with no commentary of their own.

Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a good summary of the differences.   Like you, I have my SoundScapes too close to the wall.  I use Dirac room control with my new Emotive XMC-1 and that allows my SoundScapes to disappear entirely as you guessed. 

The Exotica 3s have raised some thoughts on my end. First, I was trying to find a way to make the SS8s sound more analog,

.....

-Jon

That is my experience too. Tubes, Dirac and vinyl seem to get me the analog sound I am looking for.  Dirac seems to make even solid state sound pretty amazing, even without tubes.

[DEP14]

Hmmmm    Sounds like we need the top half of the SS8 grafted onto the bottom half of the E3.

THIS....

Though I know it can't be done.

My budget for the near future is resigned to my NHT 3.3's.  I will say this, while they don't play much lower than the SS8's, they do pack a little more wallop (maybe not quite a tight, but I like's me some thump as I likes me my rock n roll).

If I could take the top end of the SS8's (as it is, as it was darn near perfect), and have a bit more low end thump man, now that would be perfect.

I felt the same way when listening to the Legacy Signature SE's at Axpona.  Cabinet size they are similar to the SS8's.  But they pack 2 10's on the bottom end.  Now, I won't say they were quite as tight as the SS8's, but for me, I actually prefered their lower end.  BUT, I really preferred the upper end of the SS8's and the open baffle for sure.

I found myself wondering if either a PowerSS8 (powered woofer(s)) or a SS10 shallow (something like the SS10, but in a more shallow cabinet) with maybe just a couple of active 10's would be possible. 

Granted, I have no budget for that now, but man that would have me saving pennies again...

I've also thought about saving for some SS7's and running a couple JL audio e112's along side them.  That is a really nice sounding compact sub.

As to J5's original comments - I had that same marantz on the front end of my SS8's when I started, and at times I did think it would be a bit bright.  BRM (correctly) kept pointing me to the pre-amp.  Once I went with the Classe SSP 800 - they smoothed right out.

I find I tend to like accurate snappy speakers, but the downside is that when I listen loud, they get bright unless I really mate them with the correct electronics.

[benguin]

If you like more 'thump', and have the room there is always the Salk/Rythmik sub which could be added in, if you've got the space! Not to mention it's yet another beautiful piece of sonic and craftsmanship beauty. 

Incredibly pleased with our SS8 based system for both HT and stereo modes.  We've been very tempted to get a set of Exoticas to update our family room system in the not too distant future.

[JonnyFive]

Good responses everyone.  To address a few points.

Yes, I need new electronics.  However, I have a small house in a historic district and so I have to do movies/stereo in one rig.  Preamp with HT bypass, sure that's an option.  Without boosting the bass at lower volumes, however, everything sounds anemic.  Listening in direct mode vs engaging Dynamic EQ (which boosts bass), I have yet to have a guest or myself prefer Direct over DEQ.  Yes, Audyssey is largely evil, and I do not let it correct the towers.  But listening at less than reference level (which I always do) you could make a valid argument that augmented bass is more "correct" than a flat measuring system since your ear is not a linear measurement device like a z-weighted microphone.  I guess you could say I'm happy being "incorrect" in this regard, because it just sounds better to my ears.

The weakest components in my system are 1) my house (height room mode at 120 Hz that I refuse to drill into ceiling plaster to treat) and 2) myself.  Once those two are fixed, I'll sink more money into electronics.

There's a lot of emphasis on the bass section of the E3 here.  I should re-iterate I was immensely happy with the bass of the SS8s.   

I ordered the E3s sight unheard, and I'm very happy I did.  Couldn't ask for more. 

I will add one thing that I forgot to add to my initial writeup.  There are times when I miss the extension of the RAAL.  Synthesizers in music, for example, the RAAL so accurately captured that harmonic structure.  And in movies with lasers (just an example): those harmonics are just perfect.  I absolutely would *not* swap out the T35 for the RAAL in the E3s to gain this extension.  The combination W8/T35 is utterly perfect as is, and I see why Jim had no desire to change.  These are just different speakers, and there's no right answer here as to one being superior to the other.

I do miss the open back midrange of the SS8s sometimes too.  The SS8 really sounded larger than itself in the semi-open configuration.  That's not to say the E3s sound at all closed or boxy, they do not at all.  The SS8 with the semi-open back was just exceptional in that regard.

[sfox7076]

I had HT-2TLs, so I had a little different perspective coming in.  That said, I never miss extension with the Exoticas.  Maybe it is my system, but the midrange and the treble are always perfect.  Bass seems harder to get completely dialed in to my 100% liking, but that was always the case.  I am 95% there. At low volumes, all speakers are hard to deal with really.  Oddly, the best change for me in dialing in my bass came from getting a new set of speaker cables.  I had been using pure copper Belden based cables.  Then I tried homemade copper with silver/teflon coating.  The high end was always there, but the bass was not dialed in right.  It seemed anemic.  Then I got Dana Cables.  It was sort of like the bass I thought I was always missing had been found.  I don't know what it is about these cables, but they solved my anemic bass issues.  I was really shocked as I used to be a cables do not matter kind of person.  I was wrong.  I use Ziro Audio interconnects.  I highly recommend the Dana Cables. They are very thick, but work really well for me.  I am running a tube preamp...