[azryan]

Rory, drop the religion debate and quit saying what Epiphany should do. It’s not up to you.

This is not an Epiphany forum anyway and Danny said he didn’t design those subs so enough man.

Danny’s gone out of his way to explain a LOT of things to you here and ‘elsewhere’.

You’re clearly not going to buy this subwoofer and never had any intention of buying it so what do you care other than to cause trouble by harping on some company’s self promotion lingo?

They can back up the lingo with REAL performance. Their customers aren’t looking for detailed specs and you’re not looking to be a customer so you’re doing no one any good.

I sadly feel that's your intention though.

You also ignore added technical information you practically demand people give you.

Since being christian is so important to you -think about how Jesus would post. I doubt he’d act like you’ve been acting.

[Rory B.]

Ok I'll let the matter drop, but only after I say this:

When we go to buy a product like speakers or subwoofers, we want to know if they will be a good product. A "good" speaker or subwoofer  should have good performance as well as good looks. One way to find out things about the performance of a product is through measurements. Subwoofers are very different from speakers in this regard, because while one can listen to two speakers that measure identically but sound totally different, there is a more definite set of criteria that make a "good" subwoofer, since the subtleties are not as audible. These are things like low frequency extension, transient decay, and maximum sound pressure level. We do have measurement equipment that is capable of measuring these things in very large or very small quantities. The claim that we can't measure what a couple of 18" drivers in a small sealed box can do is either a gross exaggeration or just plain wrong. Yet this is exactly the claim that Epiphany is making in their web site. Too low? We can measure to 10 Hz. Too powerful? Well, we can measure the output of a jet engine, can't we? That's over 120dB and will blow your ears out if they're exposed to it. And if Epiphany's product can do that, then they don't just need measrements on their web site, they need a warning label. Too accurate and clear? An important characteristic of these traits is their dependence on the transient response of the reproduction equipment, and usually the transducer (subwoofer) is the limiting factor. And of course, we are able to measure transient decay. Another thing affecting accuracy is the THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) of the subwoofer. And we can measure that. So, I'm left wondering why Epiphany feels that they are so superior that they can get away without providing measurements of their product like just about every other maker in the industry. Maybe they feel that after you hear their line array speakers, you'll just assume that with a name like Epiphany, it's got to be good. Is the finish on the Epiphany E-Cube really that good that I could justify the $6500 price? Or maybe I'll just have to go hear some of their speakers.

(BTW- I never started a religious debate. I was using an example. Starting a debate on religion on this board was exactly the thing I wanted to avoid, as I have already stated.)

[azryan]

It's astounding to see you keep harping over and over about a couple of lines of self promotion/advertizing-type speak.

Despite you having never seen them (or you wouldn't call them small hehe), never heard them, you don't have any intention to buy them, nor are they GR Research speakers.

It's extra daft when you insult Epiphany which is a brand NEW company yet demand all sorts of measurements.

They're of no use to you as you are not going to buy them. And it's dim to think that the type of people who have a lot of money for very costly gear and who go to stores to hear speakers and subs like Epiphany actually care about or understand the measurements you demand.

Enough man.

If you want to harp on about measurments try a company/forum I know you're very familiar with. A company that doesn't ever show measurments.
This is not GR 'cuz Danny does lots of measurements for all his kits -yet some people even fault him for showing measurements of design work he's asked to do.

Something for you personally to consider 'rory'.

[Rory B.]

Whatever. I'm done arguing on here about the importance of Epiphany's lack of published measurements on their website. Maybe I'll email the guy directly. Perhaps I should have from the get-go rather than appearing to slander products online.

As far as my evaluation of the size of the subwoofer, I meant that the internal air space given to each of the 18" drivers is small compared to the size of the optimum sealed or ported box volume that each driver would require. (On the scale of the Wilson XS?)

The truth of the matter is, I am currently not in the market for a 6,500 subwoofer or 20,000 speakers or whatever. I'm 19. I bag groceries at a local supermarket when I am home from college for the summer, and I made just under $2000 this summer. What will that buy you in the high-end world? The reason I brought the measurement issue up was because I just thought that measurements of an audio product were just one of those things that potential buyers expect to see before they will give the product serious consideration.

I read the TAS article last night and it was very complimentary. I think that Epiphany will go far, if they get those kind of accolades from professional reviewers. (I don't know if reviewers for online web sites are professionals or amateurs and while a good review from a competent amateur reviewer would help me think better of a product, a review of the same product from a professional reviewer will really turn my head.) I remember the reviewer talking about the 12-12's ability to recreate a special experience that the reviewer only had once before with some Quad ESL-57's, and a recording of Mac the Knife from the Three Penny Opera. And the fact that you could hear a similar effect from the 6-6 is a good thing for more budget-conscious audiophiles. In fact, I hope that Epiphany DOES go far. I just wish we could have some measurements on their web site.

BTW, the 12-12 extends down to 35Hz on its own, and the 6-6 down to 40. The Neo3 tweeter's upper limit is 20,000 Hz, and the Neo3 PDR's upper limit is 28,000Hz. So, it just depends on what tweeter Epiphany uses. According to Danny, the sub is flat to 20Hz with plenty of output at 10 Hz. There's measurements.

[Danny Richie]

Whatever. I'm done arguing on here about the importance of Epiphany's lack of published measurements on their website.

Show me any company that has published measurements of their sub-woofers.

All of their line sources have been measured as well. I know, because I measured and tested every one of them.

Line source measurements are not as easy to take as a point source.

With a point source one can take semi-anechoic measurements by gating the time window and get a very accurate representation of the response with zero room interaction.

Not so easy with a line source. Measurements made do involve floor reflections, ceiling reflections for some, etc. Numerous measurements have to be made to get the whole picture and to tweak the design.

An accurate anechoic response is not practical at this time as it would involve a huge anechoic chamber.

At some point I am sure they will publish some measured responses, but at this time, and for the market that these are sold to, it is not as relevant as you might think.

People that drop that kind of money on speakers like that hear them first (typically).

As far as my evaluation of the size of the subwoofer, I meant that the internal air space given to each of the 18" drivers is small compared to the size of the optimum sealed or ported box volume that each driver would require. (On the scale of the Wilson XS?)

It is small, but each is in an optimal air space.

How much is the Wilson sub? The Revel sub? People that are shopping in those markets might consider the Epiphany sub a bargain.

I am glad you got to read the review.

Thanks.

[jonwb]

Ryan... lighten up man.  I agree with your general premise that Rory's questions are better off being addressed w/ Epiphany.  Heck, maybe just tone down the hostility...

Danny's a big boy, he can handle Rory's never-ending questions on this sub.  Better yet, he can just ignore him... and so could you...

Rory... if you have questions or opinioins about what Epiphany's web site says about their products, them by all means, tell THEM!  Tellin' us ain't going to help a damn thing.  If some marketing goof thinks that's the best way to describe their products then good luck to them.  Only time will tell if it works or not.  Clearly the majority of their (potential) customer base is not a bunch of spec. heads that many here are.

Good day...