AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Empirical Audio => Topic started by: davejcb on 3 Jul 2004, 10:15 pm
-
Hi!
Just wondering if anyone has had a chance to compare the dAck! to either a stock P3-A, or what I'm more interested in, an EA modded P3-A.
Thanks!
-
I did, but in all fairness to the Ack! there must have been some system incompatabilities as it did not sound very good compared to the glowing reviews done by some of the guys I trust.
I now own the EA modded P3a.
-
I compared the two, and preferred the Ack! to the EA P-3A in my system.
It wasn't that the P-3A did so much wrong; in fact, it did some things better than the Ack!. For instance, the soundstage was larger with the P-3A, and the sound was more - for lack of a better word - exciting. But the Ack! sounded more natural, and the reduced soundstage didn't seem unnaturally so...it was just smaller.
Obviously there were other differences, but system synergy and personal preference is ultimately what it's all about, so YMMV. That said, at one-third the price, I’d certainly give the Ack! a spin in your system before deciding.
DU
-
Thanks for the opinion! That's a gorgeous system you have in the gallery, if you wouldn't mind my asking what did you audition the Ack! dAck! with? Also, what mods did the P3-A have?
-
Dave,
Have you contacted Chris Own about getting on the demo list for the Ack dAck? It seems that should be your next move if you are interested in it.
Michael
-
I haven't... I just want to buy the damn thing, but I either get beat to it on Audiogon or seller backs out here. I'm too cheap to buy new. :mrgreen:
I just read about this and was wondering if it was worth 3X the price of the Ack!.
-
Dave,
I bought mine in January 2004 and Chris has already updated again, so it may not be bad if you buy it new honestly. Unless the person just bought the aCk in the last couple of months you will need to get it updated anyway. Besides, it doesn't seem like they drop that much on audiogon anyway- maybe $75-$100.
Michael
-
What do the updates consist of?
-
Thanks for the opinion! That's a gorgeous system you have in the gallery, if you wouldn't mind my asking what did you audition the Ack! dAck! with? Also, what mods did the P3-A have?
I don't mind at all, but it was about 2 months ago and my system has undergone several changes in the past few months. To the best of my knowledge (read memory), here are the configurations I tried with the P-3A.
Amp: Eighth Nerve modified Carver Pro ZR1600 (and possibly Symphonic Line RG4 monoblocks; I don't recall if I had them yet)
Preamp: Placette Audio Passive Volume Control
Transport: Sony S7700 with the full Empirical Audio treatment as of 2 months ago
Interconnects: Stealth Audio Cables Indra (Beta version)
Digital Cable: Empirical Audio Bitmeister Lite, Stealth Audio Cables Varidig, Stealth Audio Cables Varidig Sextet (beta), Stereovox HDXV
Speaker Cables: VeraStarr Silver Reference Bi-wire, Star Sound Technologies Sonoran Plateau
Speakers: SP Technology Timepiece 2.0s
All components, including speakers and speaker stands, were placed on Star Sound Technologies' Audio Points. The stands were filled with Star Sound's micro-bearing steel fill. The EA P-3A was up to date with Steve's mods at the time of my audition. You'll need to ask Steve if he's developed additional mods since.
And thanks for the compliment. I think it looks pretty nice, too. :)
DU
-
How did the Ack! fare in the low registers compared to the P3-A?
Have you heard the PT, Michael?
-
How did the Ack! fare in the low registers compared to the P3-A?
I heard little or no difference between the two.
DU
-
Dave,
Have you contacted Chris Own about getting on the demo list for the Ack dAck? It seems that should be your next move if you are interested in it.
Michael
Agree, and Steve at EA can set you up with the Turbomod P-3A. Hearing both in your own system , you can pick the best sounding one (to your ears). Best way to go (cheap or not)....IMO.... :)
-
Bah. It's 6-9 weeks wait for a demo Ack!, plus deposit for the P3-A. I think I'll just pick up the dAck! whenever I can, doesn't sound like the P3-A is worth the extra money, I think I would like the other better in my system anyways.
Thanks guys.
-
What do the updates consist of?
I'm not sure technically what was done, but Chris told me that the updates effect the mid to lower bass giving the aCk a more full sound in these areas and increasing it's slam. I'm going to send mine in for an update in a few weeks and will report back. I did not try the P3A in my system- I had a Bel Canto Dac 1, Scott Nixon Tube Dac +, and the Ack in for comparisons.
Michael
-
That is cool if it fills out the sound of the Ack, because it was a very pleasant sounding dack. One of the smoothest, natural sounding dacks I have heard, but lacked total fullness, at least in my system. If you get the update Mike, I'd love to hear it again in my system.
I love the sound of a great non-over-sampling DAC.
-
If you get the update Mike, I'd love to hear it again in my system.
Yeah, I'll let you know when the update is complete and I'll bring it over for you to hear.
Michael
-
Did you replace the coupling caps, or order it with larger valued caps? I can't remember if the time I heard Tito's DAC in my system if he had the originals or the replaced caps.
-
Yeah, the one I got had replaced the original caps with auricaps and increased the battery size. It supposedly really improved the extremes, though I never shot it out with Tito's.
Michael
-
FYI Dave, Mike, Josh and anyone else who cares, my dAck! has the new version battery and was "upgraded" with Sonicaps by Danny Richie enroute to me.
That may explain why I didn't notice a difference in the lower registers, I don't know. I've never heard it any other way. What I can say without hesitation is that my system is very revealing, and fullness is NOT a problem IMO.
Again, though, YMMV.
DU
-
davejcb wrote:
what mods did the P3-A have?
The P-3A had the full turbomod with superclock2. It is suspicious to me that the larger soundstage provided by the P-3A was thought to be inferior to a smaller soundstage. Usually, this is indicative of improvement. There may be some other stuff in the system that is causing coloration or maybe it's just personal taste. Everyone else that has compare the Ack DAC to the P-3A has preferred the P-3A.
-
It is suspicious to me that the larger soundstage provided by the P-3A was thought to be inferior to a smaller soundstage. Usually, this is indicative of improvement.
That's not what I read. I read that the P3-A soundstage was bigger, but that the dAck! sounded more natural. I think he meant the smaller soundstage on the dAck! wasn't much of an issue.
-
Hi guys,
I prefer a larger soundstage.
regards
rocket
-
It is suspicious to me that the larger soundstage provided by the P-3A was thought to be inferior to a smaller soundstage. Usually, this is indicative of improvement.
That's not what I read. I read that the P3-A soundstage was bigger, but that the dAck! sounded more natural. I think he meant the smaller soundstage on the dAck! wasn't much of an issue.
Correct on all counts, Dave.
DU
-
I wouldn't worry about the soundstage of either of the DACs, they were both fine.
My story with the Ack! dAck! is that it did not sound good in my system and I sent it back to Chris Own. Before I sent it back I let him know I had a guy who wanted it (Playntheblues).
Chris Sent him the same DAC unit I had, after he checked it out.
PlayntheBlues didn't like it either
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=6690&highlight=dack
and sold it to vpolineni, and he put it up for sale within a day.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=6807&highlight=dack
Ack! dAcks seem to come up used pretty regularly. I'm sure you can get a good deal on one.
Mine wasn't the first to be upgraded by Chris for different caps and the new battery supply/charger, but it was near the front of the line.
I don't ever recall seeing an EA modded unit for sale (transport or DAC), so it's not likely you could get a better deal than retail.
-
Interesting. How do the EA P3-As compare to the ModWright units? Anyone compare?
-
Yes, you will find that the Modwright came in second.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=7923&highlight=modwright+empirical
I didn't do the review, I haven't heard the Modwright P3a.
Coincedently though, my Sony DVP S7700 transport was modded by Dan Wright just before I bought it off audiogon. I contacted Dan and he assured me he worked on the unit and I received his original invoice to the guy I bought it from. A month or two after I bought it, I sent it to Empirical for his mods.
I could not A/B the unit and it was gone for 3 weeks so my aural acuity was not as sharp as a direct A/B, but It seemed much nicer after the Empirical mod.
-
Marbles, do you use the P1-A and P3 units as well? Do you find they are still necessary, or an improvement at all, when mated with the EA modded P3-A?
-
Marbles, do you use the P1-A and P3 units as well? Do you find they are still necessary, or an improvement at all, when mated with the EA modded P3-A?
I have never tried a P1-a and I only use the standard wall wart.
The mods were done with the wall wart in mind, and mine is plugged into a PS Audio PP600.
One day I might break down and try the P1-a, but right now I have other things in my system to tweak before I need to worry about my digital front end.
What I WILL say is that the EA modded P3a is a special Dac, and when I heard the demo unit, I knew I had to get one. It certainly was more than I wanted to spend, but at that point I was like a crack whore...I just had to have it :wink:
From what I'm told the better your transport, the better the P3a gets.
If you have a mediocre transport, you might not notice how good it is. If you have a really nice transport, you will be rewarded.
-
The guy who put it up for sale did so because it overheated his amplifier (not sure how it could do that -- don't you use a preamp?). I'm thinking of the Dack Ack also, but I'm not sure if my CD player is a good match.
-
Bob,
I was using an integrated amplifier at the time... while the sound was very nice, my amplifier heated up to the levels that my current class A amp does and that was a class AB amp which normally ran very cool.
-
For you guys considering the Ack!, you should get on the demo list.
You should also consider the Scott Nixon Tubedac or Tubedac plus. I'm pretty sure Scott offers a 30 day money back gauranty, but check that out since it's been a while since I had his.
For about the same as the Ack! (or even a bit less), this Dac sounded better to me.
-
For about the same as the Ack! (or even a bit less), this Dac sounded better to me.
Not to me. That's why it is always important to home demo stuff to make sure it works and matches your listening preferences.
Michael
-
it is always important to home demo stuff to make sure it works and matches your listening preferences.
Michael
Sounds like we CAN agree on this :wink:
-
Received my Ack! dAck! today, very nicely built unit. Will try it out soon and post impressions, I may also get a demo EA P3-A...
-
davejcb,
.....BeeBop's avatar :? [/list:u]
-
Yeah I know I'm a hack, but that cat kicks ass. :D
-
I also have a Zen SE84C (just recently acquired, so still getting its measure too). I have an Ack dAck on its way for audition, won't be able to give it a listen for another three weeks (Damn -- stuck here on the shore of a beautiful lake, far from my rig!)
So, I'll be looking forward to your impressions. I am currently using a Mensa DIO, which has great treble and bass extension. Some have reported that the Ack sacrifices these in favour of better mid range.
I will be curious as to the synergy -- will the Mensa flesh out the weaknesses of the Zen, or will the Ack reinforce the strengths (and weaknesses) of the Zen?
-
I'll be setting it up soon, still renovating... :(
I'll also be swapping out the Auricaps to Sonicaps, which apparently help extend the highs and lows. Will let you know how it turns out.
-
Personally, I would be slow to mess with Chris's design, including caps. Somewhere on this site (I don't have the link handy), Chris expresses his reluctance to change caps based on other people's auditions -- he says the dAck has been voiced in a particular way, including with particular ICs (silver twisted pairs, I believe). What others are hearing may be the result of their own particular system synergies, rather than absolutes -- that is, a change of caps may be good in one person's system, but not in all systems. Anyway, I guess if you are handy with a soldering iron, it doesn't hurt to experiment.
As it turns out, my dAck arrived today, but here at my summer place, not at home where the SE84C and other goodies are.
Had to pick up a cheap digital IC ($CAN30.00) to hook up to the ADCOM cdp, and the Bryton B60 is serving as preamp into an AVA500ex, with Mirage 5si speakers. So, not too shabby a system. The cable and the dAck seem to be breaking in, and that lovely midrange is emerging.
-
Somewhere on this site (I don't have the link handy), Chris expresses his reluctance to change caps based on other people's auditions -- he says the dAck has been voiced in a particular way, including with particular ICs (silver twisted pairs, I believe).
Don't forgot that when Chris updated the dAck from the $395 version to the $525 version he updated the caps to address the criticism some people had of it's extension problems. If you have the older version, it may be smart to change the caps. If you have the newer version, it makes no sense to change them, as Chris chose the best caps for the dAck.
Michael
-
I haven't opened mine yet, what are they, the 3.3uF Auricaps?
-
And why the hell isn't anyone buying that EA P3-A for sale? IF I had the cash lying around I'd give that a try too...
-
Yeah I think he changed the cap value from 2.2 to 3.4 or something like that to increase the bass output.
As for the "voicing" with a particular cap and interconnect.... How do I know what their hearing is like? Where are their frequency deficits in the sound spectrum? Who is to say that their ideal sound is also mine?
Others have found using different caps are appropriate to creating a different "voicing". Why would the manufacturers "voicing" be more correct than the person purchasing and ultimately living with the product?
Just curious,
-
You are right that there is nothing sacred or absolute about the "ear" or voicing of the manufacturer. Theoretically, anyone should be able to tune a piece of gear to their own liking.
Instead, we tend to buy different pieces from different manufacturers until we find one whose "ear" matches our "ear". To some extent, we are always paying for the "ear" of a particular manufacturer, and we risk losing that when we mod.
Chris has tried to emulate the sound of a good MC phono cartridge, to get a very analogue sound. We are paying for his "ear" and experience in achieving that end.
-
As for the "voicing" with a particular cap and interconnect.... How do I know what their hearing is like? Where are their frequency deficits in the sound spectrum? Who is to say that their ideal sound is also mine?
You can say that about any product. If you really believe this, then I assume you go DIY all the way.
Michael
-
You can say that about any product. If you really believe this, then I assume you go DIY all the way.
No, I am not DIY all the way but these questions do keep me from saying things like "... it makes no sense to change them, as Chris chose the best caps for the dAck. "
I have listened to the Ack at home and really loved the way it sounded. I was not in a position to purchase the DAC at the time but if I do get one, I will probably try changing out the caps to see if I like it voiced differently.
-
"... it makes no sense to change them, as Chris chose the best caps for the dAck. "
Chris changed the caps after a bunch of people were swapping out the original caps with sonicaps wanting more extension. He apparently listened to numerous caps before deciding that the larger auricaps were the best sounding with his dac. He has numerous transports/cd players and speakers to test the dac out on. If you like the sound, then why screw with it is my motto. I have way too much music to listen to than dick around with tweaks endlessly. I've been down that road and most of the time the changes were just different not better.
Michael