AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Planar Circle => Topic started by: Hiphile on 2 Dec 2016, 01:27 am
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I'm about to give up on my recently bought Maggies .7 this is a tough decision because I just love how these things sound with 75% of my music collection. The issue is not with the low end per se, acoustic bass sound magnificent. My problem is what the British call PRAT factor, drive and dynamics in the lower frequencies are a turn off when I listen to old Rock music Yes, Genesis et al. I'm seriously considering the Eminent Technology LFT-8b but will appreciate some comments from people with previous experience with this speaker. Can consider a subwoofer if and only if they can completely solve the problem with the low frq's. dynamics, which I doubt. This seems to be an inherent shortcoming of the design. I will like the sub to be my last option, don't like the idea of the extra cost involved, an extra power cord, extra cables, is annoying having an extra box in the floor, and tweeking all over again the speaker's placement.
Thanks for your patience and advice
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I haven't heard the Magnepan .7. I have owned the ET LFT8b. I liked the ETs, but in my opinion I don't think they will get you what specifically you mention that you are looking for. The cone drivers don't as much fill out (if that makes sense) the speakers as much as they attempt to allow the speaker to reach lower with a similar voice. I say similar because, although the cone drivers were good, if I had it to do over again with those speakers I would run just the panels alone and hand them off to a pair of open baffle subs. I'll bow out of discussing subs further, as you make mention that you would like to avoid them if possible, and focus on solutions that don't involve adding subs.
I think to get some of what you are after, going bigger (as in more surface area for the drivers) in the maggie family (3.7?) is the right idea. If I can offer my own suggestion, maybe at the expense of the last n-th degree of air on top compared to maggies (or the ETs), kingsound electrostats really surprised me in getting the kind of music you ask about right. For rock music, I would put them representing panel speakers head to head with many very good cone driver speakers I've heard. If I am reading your thoughts well, I am proposing the sort of thing that would be less about adding "jump" and more about adding "body" in the midrange/lower midrange (again, if that makes sense) where the heart of rock guitar lives.
I'll leave the discussion (debate) on dynamics from the speakers you ask about to others. I hope at least a bit of this helps. Best of luck in sorting things out!
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What amp are you using to power the speakers? In fact, tell us more about your entire system.
Keep in mind that your speakers have a frequency response similar to a bookshelf speaker. Without subs, you can't expect to hear decent PRAT. And if drive and dynamics on the lower frequencies are a turn off when listening to rock music, then you must be accustomed to hearing "bad bass."
If you want better sound, you'll need a good sub, at a minimum.
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Is there any way you can go to bigger Maggies? I'm listening to my 3.6R's now and have been a happy owner for many years. The PRAT you may be missing may be in moving up the product line.
Cheers,
Mark
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I had exactly the same problem and moved from Maggies (Modded MMGs) to cone drivers (Meadowlark Audio Shearwater Hot Rod). I still miss some things the Maggies could do, but love the things the Meadowlark's can do, bass and dynamics. As noted above, the 3.7s solve most of the problems with bass and some of the dynamics problems, albeit at a not insignificant price increase.
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Hi Early B, I using an Acoustat TNT-200 recently worked by Roy Esposito and a Vacuum Tube Audio SP9 preamp with a digital front end, my analogue gear is currently out of action. My previous speaker were Merlins TSM which provided way more articulated and tight bass. Now, I hear my music at reasonable levels ( not head bangers here). The room dimensions are 16'.5 x 19' my main issue is, that the "tapping the foot" factor in the music's foundation is not there, the "low end" (I guessing between 40-80hz) rhythm and pace feels sluggish compared with the Merlin. Don't get me wrong they are fabulous, maybe to good in other areas for their own good. Probably I been to harsh toward these $1400.00 speakers
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As Early B mentioned I wonder what amp you are using. I had my 1.7 driven by emo 1l mono blocks and the Maggie's seemed to be missing that bottom end. I have now switched to a Parasound 2.1 and the difference is amazing in every aspect of the music sound stage, pacing, dynamics,foundation, bass can now be felt, granted the 1.7 is a larger speaker. I think as you go up the Maggie line most of the additional speaker mass is for the lower end.
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I'd echo what other's have said : need a 1.7 or 3.7 to extend lower, supplemented by a good sub (for me personally either a REL or HL Audio). .7 is a great value speaker & brings Maggies to those who can't get the taller / larger ones past the wife. Still think they could satisfy w/ a sub, but the 1.7s & 3.7's are really the "sweet spot" in Maggies.
I have a 1.7 w/ REL T9 and play a lot of rock. The sub helps a lot w/ lower bass but also to flesh out mid bass as well. I wouldn't want to use a Maggie w/ out a sub.
The old REL "R" series where noticeably tighter / faster than the "T" series but I didn't have the $ at the time. Looking at it now in an affordable sub I'd get one of JL audios entry level "dominion" series subs. Even an 8" would be ok, but the 10" better.
Hope that helps!
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I run my 1.6's with dual subs and I have 2 friends that have 1.7's and 3.7's and they use dual subs as well. One sub would be fine. But 2 subs really give you more depth and presence. The subs give you that full bottom end and also pressurize the room like a box speaker. If you go with a sub, get something non ported for better integration. Something like an SB-1000 from SVS, Rhythmik or Martin Logan Dynamo 700-1500 subs. These are all reasonably priced subs and will sound better than many of the cheaper sub $1K REL subs that I have heard and they won't break the bank. The higher end REL subs are excellent. The Rythmik subs are excellent and a great buy.
A good amp helps. I went from a Parasound A21 to a Pass Labs X250 and the dynamics and bottom end went from good to great. They also like high current not just high wattage amps. The amps need to be able to deliver the goods when called upon. Some of the new high power digital amps like Peach Tree pair well with Maggies.
I also recommend heavy gauge speaker wire, 10-12 gauge.
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Hi Grey, thanks for stepping in. A few months ago when I bought the speakers I posted a question about which Van Alstein amp will work better with the .7, your recommendations were spot on, you and others also mentioned the need of a sub, I didn't understood at the time the logistic behind the need for extra bass below 40Hz. I refused to agree with some of you guy's statements, I didn't care to shake the house but now I see what you guys were talking about, is not about HT low end reproduction but getting the music foundation right with good quality bass. Now I'm in thisdilemma of either selling the speaker losing money and get something else or risking more money with a sub. Oh well!
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A good sub will serve you well, even if you change speakers in the future.
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Hi Jonathon below is a quote from a review of Mr. Doug Schroeder I usually don't trust this type of glowing statements but if this gentleman is right This speakers are a hybrid of two of the most musical, best bang for the buck speakers I know of. He mention something like the "holy grail" of affordable speakers. As a previous owner of ET I'll like to hear your take on this. Thanks!
"I realized Bruce had done it, made a speaker combining the best characteristics of Maggies and Vandys. This is what I heard:
*Excellent bass, midrange, treble integration
*Smooth highs, non-fatiguing like the Vandy
*Sweeping orchestral presentation in a large sound field like a Maggie
*Unexpectedly focused treble with only a glint of edge
*Strong bass without bloat"
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Like I.Greyhoundfan I also use dual subs with my 1.7s. I hated the thought of using a sub at all, but after getting a Rhythmic I ended up getting a second (two subs sound a LOT BETTER than one)! Adding subs have made the Maggies the perfect sound for me.
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If you like the Magnepan sound and have the room trade up to one of the larger models.
You can only expect a small panel to do so much when it comes to lower frequencies.
Adding a sub or two will get you to where you want to be.
One thing to keep in mind is the larger models are more revealing so if a component isn't up to snuff it will be shown up.
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I currently use a pair of ET-LFT8b's. I don't think you will go wrong with those speakers, but they do need some "adjustment" to sound their best. The tweeters (of later iterations) are too hot and they need attenuation greater than the supplied "lo" tap on the resistor divider.
The woofer has a nasty resonance peak that's not well addressed by the crossover and needs a simple modification to attenuate the peak sufficiently. If you want details on that, I can elaborate.
To me, these speakers check some boxes that Maggies don't, but the reverse is true also. However, averaging all the plusses and minuses, I still think the ET speakers yield better performance overall.
Dave.
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Hi Jonathon below is a quote from a review of Mr. Doug Schroeder I usually don't trust this type of glowing statements but if this gentleman is right This speakers are a hybrid of two of the most musical, best bang for the buck speakers I know of. He mention something like the "holy grail" of affordable speakers. As a previous owner of ET I'll like to hear your take on this. Thanks!
"I realized Bruce had done it, made a speaker combining the best characteristics of Maggies and Vandys. This is what I heard:
*Excellent bass, midrange, treble integration
*Smooth highs, non-fatiguing like the Vandy
*Sweeping orchestral presentation in a large sound field like a Maggie
*Unexpectedly focused treble with only a glint of edge
*Strong bass without bloat"
I actually met Doug at RMAF a few years ago. I met him in passing in the hall shortly after hearing the Kings the first time, and we got to talking about them and some tweaks he was working on with his personal pair before his review went online. I also read his review of the ETs before getting them myself. Please note that I have never heard the Vandy he was referring to in the review.
There were two revisions of tweeters on the LFT8 - an "a" version, and a "b" version. I had the "a" version and field upgraded the "b" tweeters following the instructions Bruce included for the upgrade at my home. I generally agree with Davey's thoughts on them, and mostly with Doug. The "b" tweeter (current version) was better in my opinion, but the "a" tweeter blended better with the midrange panel. This is splitting hairs a little, but in reading Davey's thoughts on it, I think he may be on the right track - I had the "b" tweeters set to "low" on the crossover myself. I never took measurements of anything with the speakers, and was doing things by ear alone, so I can't offer any insight as to the "right" answer to this question with any real confidence.
I agree with the great treble focus with a little bit of edge. I would disagree with Doug on the "smooth, non-fatiguing" part a little with the disclaimer that these speakers are sensitive to the character of the upstream components. I myself took the edge off and got to the kind of speaker Doug discussed by pairing them with a fairly beefy but noticeably darker sounding integrated amp. I think this also gave me a little more grunt down low that got as much as I could out of the woofers as they were.
I would in difference to Doug call the bass simply taut (Doug's "without the bloat") without calling it "strong". What is there is good, but I wouldn't be expecting miracles. I actually wondered at one point how the speaker would behave with a pair of the woofers per speaker rather than just one...
I agree with Davey that the ETs are a really good speaker out of the box, for sure a great bang for the buck, and agree that they are less better or worse than the comparable sized magnepans, but more a different mix of strengths comparably. I also agree having pulled them apart that there is a lot of potential in the crossover to get even more out of them. Bruce (the designer/manufacturer) was also very approachable and helpful to work with when I contacted him about the speakers, and he helped me through some out of warranty support issues.
Getting back to what your original post was asking about, if you want to pick the ETs up as a change of pace, great, but I still think to get what you are after will require either a physically bigger planar (brand regardless) or as others have mentioned here (and I would also suggest myself if I were to make a suggestion) sticking with the size of speakers you're discussing and adding a pair of quality subs - Tyson's point about the subs being a versatile, long-term investment is a good one.
One thing about the ETs that I don't think was mentioned in the review that I would like to mention (as a plus for staying in the maggie camp) is the vertical off axis response. The tweeter on the ETs does not run the length of the midrange panel, and drops off in response very quickly when you leave the direct vertical path of the tweeter (sitting height) and stand up. Because this mattered to me, in my situation, in the room I was in at the time, this is one of the things that got me to move on from the ETs (and at the time completely the other direction into a setup with pro-sound high efficiency coaxials and tiny amps as I had never gone down that road before and was in the mood for a change of pace), but if you're mostly a dedicated listening in a focused setting kind of person, this is a non-issue and might actually be an advantage.
TL:DR - the ETs are a good speaker, a lot of potential, different rather than better than the small maggies, and I agree with other here that I think you would do well long-term no matter where your system goes from here investing in a pair of really good subs, which would likely get you where you are going even with your current speaker setup.
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Geez!you guys description of the ETs doesn't sound like the "Holy Grail" of affordable speaker to me!. Just as I suspected a great design for the price with some inevitable compromises. Thank Davey and Jonathon for your insightful responces really helped!! My amp won't be a good match with ETs for sure
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There are tons of practical considerations for all speakers, especially Maggies. First and foremost, Maggies need lots of room around them to sound good. Second, to get the best sound, you'll need dual subs as others have stated. That's a lot of real estate. If you're single or you have a dedicated listening room, you're fine. Otherwise, Maggies properly set up are likely to present some problems.
The point I'm making is to first think about what is practical for your situation and the room, then design your system around it. So don't limit yourself to planars. There are lots of other options to choose from.
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The "Holy Grail of affordable speakers" is just reviewer rhetorical nonsense. :)
All speakers have issues. Some issues can be addressed and some not. There are trade-offs everywhere.
The ET tweeter level issue is easily addressed. You need to insert an external resistor of higher value (I use 12 ohms) between the tweeter black wire and the barrier strip "high" post.
In my opinion, the tweeter/midrange wiring polarity is not correct and the tweeter should be reversed. However, this is not that big a deal.
The woofer issue is more involved to fix. You need to remove the woofer and install a 30uf/1.5ohm RC across the terminals. This will slope the woofer off out of band and alleviate the resonant peak without affecting the woofer/midrange crossover.
There are other issues as well, but these involve implementing a completely new crossover. I have a couple of prototypes I've experimented with and both yield a sizable improvement in the character of the ET speaker.
Dave.
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During my Maggies phase I had both MMG's and then 1.6's.
For both I used a single sub.
I would say that for certain music (jazz and some blues) the 1.6's were fine without the sub. I personally never felt the MMG's were. I liked them, but only with the sub.
I have never heard 0.7's so I am unclear where they fall between MMG and 1.6. I suspect they split the difference.
Since moving on myself, I am back to enjoying music, but there are still tunes that hit me as nowhere as good as the 1.6's were. Nothing against my current speakers (Focal Electra 906's), they simply are NOT the same presentation.
In some cases they are better. In some cases they are not.
My cats have not climbed my speaker stands though, and they were doing it all the time with my 1.6's so that is what eventually drove me to sell them off.
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Take a quick read here, http://www.indiespinzone.com/magnestand.html . I've heard a pair of 1.6s modded as Magnestands and couldn't believe the bass reach, impact, and especially their ability to play loud w/o strain, Wells Akasha amp. I have visited my friend's home many times and instead of getting into the component comparisons that were the goal, we mostly listen to music and have a great time, these Magnestand 1.6s stunned me, I never would believe any Maggie could sound like these and I've heard 3.6s with Pass monos and they sounded anemic compared to these.
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I just finished reading Doug Schroeder's review of the ET speakers. I met him back in 2005 when I sold him a pair of Vandersteen 1C speakers. This was before he was hired on at Dagogo, I'm pretty sure.
My reason for posting here is I have owned Magnepan 12QRs, 1.6QRs and the Eminent Technology LFT-8b. The ETs were with me for only a short while as I didn't care for their tonal balance. The tweeter was just too hot no matter what I did. What sealed there fate for me was listening to Johnny Cash. I put on the Deadman Walking soundtrack and 15 seconds into Mr Cash's In Your Mind I knew these speakers weren't going to work for me.
As for their ability to play loud though, when I sold them, a buyer came to audition them and man did he blast them. I wasn't really paying attention to their sound at that point but I remember my wife's reaction once we boxed the speakers up.
Going back to Schoeder's review, he compared them to the Maggie 1.6 and the Vandersteen 2CE. Of the three speakers I would chose the Vandies. All a matter of taste and preference. Unfortunately, my current room is too small for the Vandies. Before selling the 1.6s though, I had a pair of Revel M20s next to them. I had 3 or 4 people in my room to listen and all found the Revels the better over all speaker.
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It's too bad you sold the ET speakers so soon. The hot tweeter issue is easily solved and the tonal balance can be addressed in a couple of different ways.
Of course, the midrange driver is the star of the show and these speakers have easily more potential than any of the Magnepan models. But, it takes some work to get 'em there.
I'm not sure the Dead Man Walking soundtrack is appropriate evaluation software. I think most of the tracks on that disk are horribly recorded and they will make most speakers sound bad.
Cheers,
Dave.
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It's too bad you sold the ET speakers so soon. The hot tweeter issue is easily solved and the tonal balance can be addressed in a couple of different ways.
Of course, the midrange driver is the star of the show and these speakers have easily more potential than any of the Magnepan models. But, it takes some work to get 'em there.
I'm not sure the Dead Man Walking soundtrack is appropriate evaluation software. I think most of the tracks on that disk are horribly recorded and they will make most speakers sound bad.
Cheers,
Dave.
Glad you enjoy your ETs. I honestly thought mine sounded better with the tweeter disconnected. You've done way more work on yours then the design warrants, IMO.
Curious which cuts on the Deadman Walking cd you consider poorly recorded? I find a couple of them sound wonderful, and the Johnny Cash contribution is one of the better ones.
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Haven't heard the ETs, but the Spatial Audio M3s may provide what you're looking for without venturing too far away from what you like.
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I would look to the used market for a sub to save some money. I bought my Martin Logan Original Dynamo's for $180 and $280. They sold for $700 new. They come up from time to time. They are musical, fast and integrate seamlessly with my Maggies. Here is a Martin Logan Dynamo 700 with wireless option for a great price-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Martin-Logan-Dynamo-700W-Wireless-High-Resolution-Subwoofer-System-700-Watt/142193611698?_trksid=p2141725.c100337.m3725&_trkparms=aid%3D777000%26algo%3DABA.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20141212152338%26meid%3D57f2b704443a4e2f84fd6a617e9b9870%26pid%3D100337%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26sd%3D252658478170
Nothing to lose here. You could easily turn around and sell it. There are better subs that go deeper but these integrate seamlessly with fast, articulate bass with no bloat or boom. It is non ported. The 300 and 500 versions are ported and are not very good. If you want new, consider the SVS SB-1000 for about $600. Great sub for that price.
I would forget larger Maggies, you will still have the same problem with the bass.
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I really, really want to thanks all of you guys for the enlightenment and excellent comments, it did help through this brainstorming process. So the Sub option is gonna be! seems the most reasonable and cheap way. Call Magnepan and no upgrade program for .7, call my dealer and offer me 400 for the speakers I bought from them 3 months ago that are in pristine conditions I even keep'em covered with the plastic bag they came with, damn I sure I can get 800 for them in A-gon. Dave's advice sounds awesome but I don't want go through that process right now, the Spatial proposal is tempting as well. I like what this speakers do well, so I will try to work things around their strengths and ameliorate their weakness
ps you haven't got rid of me yet, will do my homework on the sub and will post again for comments. Thanks again you people are a great resource!
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Glad you enjoy your ETs. I honestly thought mine sounded better with the tweeter disconnected. You've done way more work on yours then the design warrants, IMO.
Well, I've actually done some work on the speakers, so I think my insight is much better than yours.
Dave.
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Hi Dave, just curious. How diffcult will be to do the woofer's job in the ET I read somewhere that they're sealed??
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Haven't heard the ETs, but the Spatial Audio M3s may provide what you're looking for without venturing too far away from what you like.
The Spatial Audio M3's are a very nice sounding speaker. I had a pair for a few days in my home for an audition early this fall. While they are a nice sounding speaker and do nothing wrong except for needing a sub as well, they were less musical and resolving next to my Magnepan 1.6's. The midrange on the Maggies had them beat by a long shot. Vocals were more textured. The Spatials did image better and had a greater sense of air. They were a more forgiving speaker. I had a friend over who thought the same when we compared them side by side. He preferred the Maggies as did my audiophile son. I would have liked to hear the Turbo S model though.
Get a sub and I think that you will be pleasantly surprised with the Maggies. I set my crossover on the sub just a few hz above the lower end of the Maggies and run the Maggies full range. The Maggies also need about 75 to 100 hours of break in and the sound gets better and bass improves some.
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Well, I've actually done some work on the speakers, so I think my insight is much better than yours.
Dave.
Really?
As an owner of the speakers, I think my opinion is just as valid as yours.
You point out many technical flaws with the speaker. You've taken the time to fix these problems to your satisfaction. I applaud your effort there. I chose to put my Meadowlark Kestel Hot Rods back in service, listen to Johnny Cash the way he should sound, and sell the ETs.
The question for me, and I'd say to the OP as well, why not simply purchase speakers that aren't as flawed? A very easy solution.
I seriously doubt the LFT-8 is a better speaker than the Vandersteen 2CE (any iteration), no matter the amount of tweaking. That's MY opinion as one who has owned both models. Others may disagree.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154344)
Hi Dave, just curious. How diffcult will be to do the woofer's job in the ET I read somewhere that they're sealed??
It's not too difficult.
You need to drive out all the screws and pull the woofer out. You can accomplish the modification without unsoldering the wires, but it's easier if you do.
Here's a photo of my setup after installing the RC shunt. The capacitor is secured to the driver with a big glob of RTV.
This doesn't eliminate the cone resonance, but attenuates it considerably.
The other photo shows an external resistor added into the tweeter leg to attenuate it further than the "low" position would.
Cheers,
Dave.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154343)
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My opinion is also for the OP to get a sub - because as he said in the original post.
I'm about to give up on my recently bought Maggies .7 this is a tough decision because I just love how these things sound with 75% of my music collection. The issue is not with the low end per se, acoustic bass sound magnificent. My problem is what the British call PRAT factor, drive and dynamics in the lower frequencies are a turn off when I listen to old Rock music Yes, Genesis et al.
Can consider a subwoofer if and only if they can completely solve the problem with the low frq's. dynamics, which I doubt.
Why sell these and buy something else and risk the possibility that he might not like the new ones?
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Hi Early B, I using an Acoustat TNT-200 recently worked by Roy Esposito and a Vacuum Tube Audio SP9 preamp with a digital front end, my analogue gear is currently out of action. My previous speaker were Merlins TSM which provided way more articulated and tight bass. Now, I hear my music at reasonable levels ( not head bangers here). The room dimensions are 16'.5 x 19' my main issue is, that the "tapping the foot" factor in the music's foundation is not there, the "low end" (I guessing between 40-80hz) rhythm and pace feels sluggish compared with the Merlin. Don't get me wrong they are fabulous, maybe to good in other areas for their own good. Probably I been to harsh toward these $1400.00 speakers
Roy also does a great job in modding the OTL tube amps for the Acoustat x and monitor series. These are much more dynamic than any of the Maggie's and much better bass. Steve Deckart of Decware and bpape still uses these as reference speakers and still cannot find a replacement after. 30 years plus.
since you have a modded TNT amp, you might look for a pair of Acoustst 2+2's, Jeff at Tone Audio said recently that he could live with a pair of those the rest of his life and you see how many speakers he reviews.
The Acoustats were state of the art 30-40 years ago, and it still stands today. I have recently seen many 2+2's sell in the range of 500-1200 these days. Roy also as a great mod for the transformers of the Acoustats. I would love to hear a pair of 2+2's with the servo tube amps.
I saw today a Roy modded TNT 200 amp on Ebay for 1250.
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Really?
As an owner of the speakers, I think my opinion is just as valid as yours.
You point out many technical flaws with the speaker. You've taken the time to fix these problems to your satisfaction. I applaud your effort there. I chose to put my Meadowlark Kestel Hot Rods back in service, listen to Johnny Cash the way he should sound, and sell the ETs.
The question for me, and I'd say to the OP as well, why not simply purchase speakers that aren't as flawed? A very easy solution.
I seriously doubt the LFT-8 is a better speaker than the Vandersteen 2CE (any iteration), no matter the amount of tweaking. That's MY opinion as one who has owned both models. Others may disagree.
If you think the Vandersteen 2ce (or even a primitive design like the Meadowlark HotRod) is preferable to LFT-8's then we clearly have a different reference regarding speaker system performance. :) I wouldn't even consider the Model 5's equivalent.
Vandersteen speakers are extremely over-priced...for what they are. And anybody can throw some quality Scan-Speak drivers in a box and make them sound decent.
My insight regarding the ET speakers is related to their 'potential' and not necessarily their stock performance. I have listened to my pair for well over a year now....in stock form and with various modifications. I think I have a pretty good idea the type of potential these speakers have. :) But, if you think your insight is equivalent to that then so be it.
Cheers,
Dave.
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If you think the Vandersteen 2ce (or even a primitive design like the Meadowlark HotRod) is preferable to LFT-8's then we clearly have a different reference regarding speaker system performance. :) I wouldn't even consider the Model 5's equivalent.
Vandersteen speakers are extremely over-priced...for what they are. And anybody can throw some quality Scan-Speak drivers in a box and make them sound decent.
My insight regarding the ET speakers is related to their 'potential' and not necessarily their stock performance. I have listened to my pair for well over a year now....in stock form and with various modifications. I think I have a pretty good idea the type of potential these speakers have. :) But, if you think your insight is equivalent to that then so be it.
Cheers,
Dave.
Ok then. We'll agree to disagree and each listen to what we prefer. As for my insight being equivalent to yours, when it comes to telling me what sound I prefer, my insight is superior to yours. I wish you well and sincerely hope you enjoy your holidays.
Tim
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A nice Maggie .7 video review here, including integration with dual subs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJro26WxdaQ
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Hi Early B. and OzarkTom this pictures shows how the amp looks after Roy's magic touch. Mine was updated and upgraded two months ago was lucky that someone cancel its appointment and was able to squeeze in, the waiting list is around 8+ months. Amazing sounding for a 30 years old amp. built like a tank. In my book one of the top 3 amps I had ever own along with the Plinius SB-300, Symphonic line RG1
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154357)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154358)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154359)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154360)
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Hi Hiphile:
Your TNT-200 looks almost new. :thumb: Did you buy it used or new? Roy did a great job on your unit. Wanted to have it done by him but just couldn't afford to send it to him to have the work done as the Canadian to US exchange rate is low. :( Can you take closer pictures of the innards especially the PCB boards? I'm curious as to which parts were swapped/replaced. Can tell that the smaller caps have been replaced. Really enjoying mine (bought used and had a local tech, who is very good and has done repairs/replacement/mods to Cello, Mark Levinson, Krells, Macs, and other high-end SS and tube gear, go over it) aside from the slight turn on thump (I've read that it's normal for these amps). The pre is a TNP also gone over by the same tech. (The cost of the repairs/replacement parts, small mods, and labor for both units ran $1k :icon_surprised: which would not be far from Roy's works aside from the shipping and exchange rates.) It mates well with the Acoustat 3s in a small 11'x10.5' treated room. :icon_lol: Also have a HSU VTF-2 sub handling the lower end of things.
Your pre is probably quite a bit better than the TNP... so the electronics you currently have would mate well with a selection of loudspeakers if you choose to go that route. 8)
I agree with most of the other posters that adding one sub (or two if it'll fit in your room) is probably the best route to take as the dealer isn't giving you much of a trade in value (which is kind of strange since you purchase the .7s from them :scratch:).
Hope you find the prat/sound you are looking for. :wink:
Sincerely,
Kingsley.
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Hi Hiphile:
Your TNT-200 looks almost new. :thumb: Did you buy it used or new? Roy did a great job on your unit. Wanted to have it done by him but just couldn't afford to send it to him to have the work done as the Canadian to US exchange rate is low. :( Can you take closer pictures of the innards especially the PCB boards? I'm curious as to which parts were swapped/replaced. Can tell that the smaller caps have been replaced. Really enjoying mine (bought used and had a local tech, who is very good and has done repairs/replacement/mods to Cello, Mark Levinson, Krells, Macs, and other high-end SS and tube gear, go over it) aside from the slight turn on thump (I've read that it's normal for these amps). The pre is a TNP also gone over by the same tech. (The cost of the repairs/replacement parts, small mods, and labor for both units ran $1k :icon_surprised: which would not be far from Roy's works aside from the shipping and exchange rates.) It mates well with the Acoustat 3s in a small 11'x10.5' treated room. :icon_lol: Also have a HSU VTF-2 sub handling the lower end of things.
Your pre is probably quite a bit better than the TNP... so the electronics you currently have would mate well with a selection of loudspeakers if you choose to go that route. 8)
I agree with most of the other posters that adding one sub (or two if it'll fit in your room) is probably the best route to take as the dealer isn't giving you much of a trade in value (which is kind of strange since you purchase the .7s from them :scratch:).
Hope you find the prat/sound you are looking for. :wink:
Sincerely,
Kingsley.
Boug
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154390)
ht it used!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154385)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154387)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154388)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154389)
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Roy modded TNT amp on Ebay for $1250.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/172421602738?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Those amps were built like tanks and sounded nice. I would love to hear Roy's updated version. Roy also now has a bridging mod for the 200's if you want monos.
There is a 10" velodyne sub here for $145. Just scroll down.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1742722662620198/2133473816878412/?notif_t=group_activity¬if_id=1480713747895720
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Thanks for the additional pics, Hiphile. 8)
Thanks for the heads up on a TNT200 worked on by Roy Esposito, OzarkTom. (Don't have the funds to pony up for it, especially in US dollars! Will just have to settle for what I have.) :| By the way, have read about your comments servo(?)/direct drive amps pushing you Acoustat X(s?) as being to defacto for Acoustats. 8)
Sincerely,
Kingsley.
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Kingsley, probably they won't work for you I took these pictures while replacing the fuse for some "fancy" ones, still wondering if they make a significant difference. I'll be moving early this year I can take close up pictures of the boards when I disconnect it so you can have a better look at the replaced components. I want to keep it constantly on. This thing still in the burn in process I been told that it needs close to 400 hrs?? I'm very please, it keeps improving sonicwise! :D
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It will be always a compromise. The goal is to find the one that let you smile and enjoy the Music. No worries, even then, you will be looking for something else anyway, because it's human nature. If you are happy where you are you will resist, eventually.
Two years ago, I almost pulled the trigger with emerald physics because of the PRAT factor. I warmly recommend an audition as an experiment in that direction.
Before the .7 where out, Mr. Wendell, in consideration of electronics and room constraint, stirred me away from downsizing, because they are different panels, they require less power, at the end, they have less potential. Instead, I upgraded adding the "i" and I know 3.7i will be the next and final (‽) step soon after a very long journey.
And before committing in adding anything into the room in the shape of a woofer, I spent months (in a two year time) in measuring and listening sessions, ending up in two sweet spots, one for casual listening still far enough from the front wall with movie theater alike strong mid-low, but -20db flat after 16KHz, and another where, well ... that's the one where I enjoy listening to the Music (being Peter Gabriel my favorite exception to much older composers as a point of reference).
My good friend, a local very well respected speaker builder (who also modded plenty of magnepan) and REL retailer, had to agree with me while loosing a sale.
A deep knowledge of how your room sounds, before tweaking and playing with our toys is the best advice I have, no matter the design of the transducer or the quality of the signal it's getting in there.
Every time I modify the chain I start from there.
Good luck with your quest,
Riccardo
P.S. If you still have the .7 try raise them on a 2" hardwood base with 3 still points-like. I owe the lesson to this gentleman http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/monitoring.htm
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Hiphile - I sent you a PM.
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Good Afternoon, Hiphile:
Funny you should mention the fuse aspect. I had listen to the amp for a while prior to removing the top to vacuum & clean it a bit...when done, I swapped out the fuses on the boards (I don't think I swapped the ones on the power supply) with some new ones (Holly brand)...there was a definite change for the better. (Can't say it was huge, just noticeable.) :thumb: Good thing you can keep it on and yes it does help and the sonics will opened up. This process took time but what was good but became better overall. I, however would like to keep mine on but am concerned about the the electricity bill (which seems to be slowly creeping up even though we've tried to limit our electricity usage...that's government clawing more and more from us. :roll:) Thankfully, the warm up time is not that bad to enjoy the music that comes from it. Thanks for offering to take closer pictures, of course, at your convenience. :)
Sincerely,
Kingsley.
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I'm about to give up on my recently bought Maggies .7 this is a tough decision because I just love how these things sound with 75% of my music collection. The issue is not with the low end per se, acoustic bass sound magnificent. My problem is what the British call PRAT factor, drive and dynamics in the lower frequencies are a turn off when I listen to old Rock music Yes, Genesis et al. I'm seriously considering the Eminent Technology LFT-8b but will appreciate some comments from people with previous experience with this speaker. Can consider a subwoofer if and only if they can completely solve the problem with the low frq's. dynamics, which I doubt. This seems to be an inherent shortcoming of the design. I will like the sub to be my last option, don't like the idea of the extra cost involved, an extra power cord, extra cables, is annoying having an extra box in the floor, and tweeking all over again the speaker's placement.
Thanks for your patience and advice
Back to the original question - the lack of PRAT in a Maggie, particularly in the bass, sounds to me like the speaker is too close to the wall! How far out in the room are they? The attack of Rickenbacker bass (a la Yes and non-bass pedal Genesis) should sound wonderful, so something is definitely up. Although pulling them out further into the room may compromise low bass extension a bit, I'd try that before giving up on them. If that fixes the problem, and WAF is a factor, they can be pushed back when not in use for serious listening...
MGbert
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I'm about to give up on my recently bought Maggies .7 this is a tough decision because I just love how these things sound with 75% of my music collection. The issue is not with the low end per se, acoustic bass sound magnificent. My problem is what the British call PRAT factor, drive and dynamics in the lower frequencies are a turn off when I listen to old Rock music Yes, Genesis et al. I'm seriously considering the Eminent Technology LFT-8b but will appreciate some comments from people with previous experience with this speaker. Can consider a subwoofer if and only if they can completely solve the problem with the low frq's. dynamics, which I doubt. This seems to be an inherent shortcoming of the design. I will like the sub to be my last option, don't like the idea of the extra cost involved, an extra power cord, extra cables, is annoying having an extra box in the floor, and tweeking all over again the speaker's placement.
Thanks for your patience and advice
I know this answer might be unpopular - but i think the amp provides the prat factor - not the speakers - If all these posts are telling me that the speaker is the culprit - then for 25 years i have been thinking the issue of prat around amplifiers is all wrong
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I know this answer might be unpopular - but i think the amp provides the prat factor - not the speakers - If all these posts are telling me that the speaker is the culprit - then for 25 years i have been thinking the issue of prat around amplifiers is all wrong
It's not that simple.A change in an interconnect, for instance, can significantly affect PRAT. PRAT is another nebulous audiophile term for "synergy." When everything locks in, then you'll have your PRAT.
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Back to the original question - the lack of PRAT in a Maggie, particularly in the bass, sounds to me like the speaker is too close to the wall! How far out in the room are they? The attack of Rickenbacker bass (a la Yes and non-bass pedal Genesis) should sound wonderful, so something is definitely up. Although pulling them out further into the room may compromise low bass extension a bit, I'd try that before giving up on them. If that fixes the problem, and WAF is a factor, they can be pushed back when not in use for serious listening...
MGbert
The speakers are temporarily placed at 45" outer edges and 43" inner edges from the back wall with tweeters in the inside. Don't get me wrong the bass is really good in most instances, upright acoustic bass is outstanding Dave Holland is right here in the room, is just a perceived lack of drive and dynamics in some rock music kit drum, electric bass, some low frequency from synthesizers. Things have got better with more hours under the belt in the amp. (close to 200) I thought the amp was mostly done with the burn in process at 150 hr, not the case. I don't want to start an argument here but an audiophile friend, told me that Klaus Bunge mentioned something in the 400hr. neighborhood. I'm planning on getting two 8" acoustic suspension sub as suggested here
I know this answer might be unpopular - but i think the amp provides the prat factor - not the speakers - If all these posts are telling me that the speaker is the culprit - then for 25 years i have been thinking the issue of prat around amplifiers is all wrong
I think is a combination of both properly working together, like a good marriage, easier said than done. I'm sure the amp. is not lacking prowess in driving the speakers, at a slew rate of 165/us and damping factor of 1000 if this things don't have good control over the .7 I don't know what will! As I mention earlier the problem is one of perception I'm coming from acoustic's suspension type of speakers and is unfair to expect the same degree of bass quality(not quantity) in planars or mostly any other kind of speakers for that matter. Does anyone remember the Hales Transcendence 8 or T5 ?
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"a perceived lack of drive and dynamics in some rock music kit drum, electric bass, some low frequency from synthesizers"
It's a matter of panel size. The .7s are small speakers (for a panel) and don't have the surface area on the bass portion to dig way down.
Play the same music on a pair of 20.7s and see how the bass does.
For the smaller Maggies you'll need to augment the bass with a subwoofer or two for that type of music which it looks like you're doing.
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My .7's absolutely needed a subwoofer . After much research I went with the Swarm from AudioKinesis. Long story short, the sub system and the .7's seem like they were made for each other. The bass is so clean and so "fast" (hate that term, but it fits), and so darn smooth because of the multi sub approach. The sound is spectacular, with plenty of oomph and PRAT for rock and other "power music".
WAF if very good, too. The subs are designed to be close to the wall, with their drivers facing the wall so you don't see them. They're not big boxes, and they look like nice pieces of furniture, perfect to put something on. I've found that placement is not critical at all. I put them where I had spaces for them and they sound fantastic. The wiring is minimal. As for the .7's, they are so light I push them back near the wall, either side of the TV when I'm not listening critically, and use them for TV sound. A little felt on the bottom of the feet protects the wood floor. Pulling them out for a music listening session is a piece of cake.
So that's my experience. .7's and subs are a great match, as long as the sub system is a good one. I'd be wary of a single box solution. I can't stand bass nodes!
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Here is an excellent review of using the new Pass Labs Int-60 amp with Magnepan 0.7's. Just thought I would throw it out there to show what the Maggies can do with a stellar amp at only 60wpc, 30 wpc in Class A
http://www.stereophile.com/content/pass-laboratories-int-60-integrated-amplifier#4JdKPy23Ofq5MEc6.97
Amps do make a huge difference with Maggies. Going from a Parasound A21 to my Pass X250 amp really made the Maggies shine. Adding a BAT VZK-51se preamp with its powerful bass took dynamics and bass to another level.
With that being said, adding subwoofers to the mix gave me that lower bass and room pressurization that was missing.