[jk@home]

Yeah I remember someone here did the wire upgrade on an older Crown. But just doing the Pomona mod is easily reversible, and these things have what... a 3 year warranty?  So I guess we need to wait that long before going the full monty.

[macrojack]

Why does this always happen? Some product like these Crown amps gains everyone's attention due to the incredible price/performance ratio it offers, resulting in a long and enthusiastic thread. Then the tweaks begin to emerge and the ratio begins to shift. Every new tweak brings a poorer cost to improvement ratio leading to an eventual adjusted "value" that would never have excited anyone in the first place. Apparently this is the behavior that causes our self-deprecatory comments about audiophile insanity.

I think we do the same thing with mods. We buy some giant killer OPPO product or a Mac Mini and then triple or quadruple our investment in pursuit of a 10% improvement in performance, voiding our warranties and compromising our chances of recovering our investment at sale time.

Seems insane to me. Either you are after performance or value. When you attempt to increase both simultaneously, more often than not you wind up with more of one at the expense of the other.

[mcgsxr]

Perhaps it is the affliction of audio geeks the world over to never be satisfied.  Perhaps it is because we all chase better, and know that it often costs more.

For me, I waited years to pick up on this amp.  I read about it, watched threads, and as the flavor of the month faded I pounced on one.  It already had some lights mods (max $60 or so) and on the used market represented excellent value.

Now with it up and running in my environment, I am happy I spent what I did.

I am still using a stock (!) Squeezebox Touch at present as my transport.  I once owned a full monty Bolder SB3 with power supply etc.   I am VERY guilty of exploring mods to gear.  I find it interesting and rewarding. 

I go in and out of this hobby with my heart and my wallet in lock step.  Its the music that never gets sold it seems!

[jk@home]

In my case, the binding post mod allowed me to use spade connectors, which I feel are the most solid connection out there. Short of going bare, which can be a mess with stranded wire. The stock posts don't allow spades.

Now a few years ago, I modded the heck out of a pair of Maggie MMGs, cause (as the Geico commercial says) "It's what you do".  In the end, they got replaced anyway. I have absolutely no desire to mod my current speakers. I think it really does effect resale, in a negative way.

[brother love]

I think it's all relative. If you buy a amp like this one when it went new for $300, & it sounds really good for the money, but comes up short in a few areas. So you spend $100- $200 to mod the amp to improve its drawbacks. Now you have $400- $500 invested & the question becomes just like before... how does it compare to similarly priced amplifiers?

If you don't want void the warranty, that is certainly understandable.  If you buy a used version where warranty is not transferable, then that becomes a non-issue. I do agree that resale value can be adversely affected by mods. To each their own.

[DaveC113]

macro, I'd agree if you're talking about $400+ WBT silver posts but the Pomonas are about $40. The amps are being closed out at under 50% of retail, but adding $40 binding posts to an ~$800 retail amp doesn't seem out of proportion to me at all and you're still getting a good value. OTOH, you can buy Speakons instead of Pomonas for even less $ and solve the connector issue that way. But the fact is the stock binding posts do suck and add grain to the sound.


 

[Quiet Earth]

I don't think the crown ever retailed for $800. Even the QSC GX7 retailed for less than that.

[DaveC113]

I don't think the crown ever retailed for $800. Even the QSC GX7 retailed for less than that.

Not so, the XLS 2500 retailed for $1099 and the XLS 2000 for $899, 1500 for a couple hundred less, etc...

[Quiet Earth]

Huh....   For some reason I always thought the Crown1500 was way cheaper than the big QSC.  I guess not.

Still, I like macrojack's post about keeping your perspective when entering the world of modifications. Something to consider anyway.

[DaveC113]

Huh....   For some reason I always thought the Crown1500 was way cheaper than the big QSC.  I guess not.

Still, I like macrojack's post about keeping your perspective when entering the world of modifications. Something to consider anyway.

Well, people spend big money on cables and don't bother upgrading in/out jacks or internal wire, which makes the same kind of difference upgrading cables makes, it just takes more effort. If you truly want your system to be as good as possible that means using the best parts possible form source to drivers. It should be done in a sensible way but I don't think leaving poor quality connectors or wire in your system is a good idea. I think putting $40 Pomona binding posts on an XLS amp improves the value for the money.

[Odal3]

Sites like camelcamelcamel.com are good places to check price history over time since amazon pricing is a good measure of current values. Didn't realize that the xls 1500 now can be had new for just under $200. http://camelcamelcamel.com/Crown-DriveCore-XLS1500-Power-Amplifier/product/B003HZV2JS?context=browse

[Oktyabr]

Fascinating thread!  A buddy of mine recommended I give a pro amp with DSP a try so I started looking and stumbled across this thread (and a few others).  Yesterday UPS delivered a pair of XLS 1500 which I promptly hooked up before going to bed. 

I'm posting in this thread (after having read most of the last 77 pages, if not all of them) looking for a bit of advice and/or a consensus:

I run an older, tried but true, Yamaha AV receiver.  The manual says the preamp outputs are 1V.  I hooked up the Crowns with RCA jacks and plugged in the calibration mic included with my receiver.  To my surprise, going back and looking at the levels the Yamaha recommended, the front speakers the crowns are driving are only slightly above the normal, middle point of their respective gain setting lines.  I kind of expected it to push the preamp levels significantly higher than the center and surrounds that the receiver handles itself, but they were within reason with considerable room left for adjustment.  However I noticed on a quick run with some two channel music at higher volumes (risking the wrath of my wife for interrupting her competitive cooking shows ) that while the Crowns sound nice so far that they do not drive my speakers near as loud as the setup they are speculatively going to replace.  Further the only signal indicator light that ever lights up is the very bottom one...  It never even dips into -20db or -10db, much less clipping, even though one channel on each amp is just a click or two away from being maxed out, even with the receiver indicating a "-0 DB" volume level.

Does just the signal light flickering suggest lost head room?

In that case, I realize they really need more gain from the preamp stage.  This is where a consensus would be nice to have...  I know some recommend an Art CleanBox Pro, others seem to like the Rolls equivalent, and I'm sure there are other units out there that I might consider as well.  Of course the far end of that range of solutions would be a preamp capable of driving the crowns to pro levels but that probably doesn't fit my constraints, which are:  Any preamp, gain converter, or other solution must cost less than the price difference between the 1500s, which I can still return, and the newer 1502 version which I realize has a gain selection switch of some sort (I still have to read a review on the 1502).  I paid $199 each from Amazon and it seems the 1502 is running right around $350 so any solution can't exceed the difference of $300 (for two of them), or I'd just return the 1500 and upgrade to the 1502.  Second constraint is that any such solution should not introduce any further "hiss" to what comes out of my speakers.  The Crowns are VERY quiet but if I listen carefully, from a foot or two away, I can still hear it.  This is acceptable.  Anything much more noisy and I'd probably prefer to roll back to my (noisy) miniDSP 2x4 rev.A and the consumer level amps I was running previously.

ART?  Rolls?  Something else?  A burning deal on a preamp somewhere?


For those who would like more of the back story my fronts are Audio Nirvana Super 8" Ferrite full rangers, which are, according to the manufacturer, "at least 98 db efficiency in any of our cabinets".  I used to drive these to very pleasant levels with a very low power T-amp in manufacturer designed cabinets and then after a few other experiments they ended up in open baffles above a pair of Goldwood GW-1858 18" pro drivers inside "H Frame" open baffles designed by Martin J. King.  The 18" are spec'd to be 94.3 dB 2.83V/1m, revealing a sensitivity mismatch between my Super 8's and themselves, which is why gain controls on an amplifier has it's appeal to me.   This two way project does not utilize any other cross over method, so something like the Crown XLS was very interesting to me.  I currently run the Crowns in "Input Y XOVER" mode, one amp per channel, crossed over at 125 Hz (currently).  The miniDSP was much more flexible as far as setting crossover filters (even biquads) but as I said, it was pretty noisy...  it sounded good when music was playing but any silence was slowly driving me crazy with the hiss it provided.   

Suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

[roscoeiii]

May not be in the price range you are looking for, but if gain is an issue a great option would be an iTube, used as a buffer with the +6 dB gain setting. A great pairing with the XLS as I and others have found. And Music Direct sells these if you don't have a local dealer who can offer an audition. If it doesn't work for you,  then they have a great return policy. You could also look to see if they have a demo unit for sale.

Enjoy this new amp journey!

[Oktyabr]

Thanks for the tip!  I'll add that one to my list of solutions to consider!

[Odal3]

Yeah - you definetely need to see some movement on the input signal when you crank it up. Many have reported good results with both cheap amd expensive tube preamps. I use a cheap one (Little bear P3) with good results. There are also some people that connect speaker level from separate amp with home made cables with rca on one side and speaker connection on the other with some resistors in between. I want to try this at some point but haven't dared (convinced myself it is save) to do this with the other amp I have. This probably makes more sense if using the amps for subs.
Also check craigslist, ebay and guitar center for used stuff. A lot of pro audio can be had cheap if you look around abit.

Btw: if you are using it with an avr you may want to look into if you can manually adjust up the output level for the channels you send to the crown. May not work but at least worth a try. It also sounds like you have room correction on and another thing to do is to see if you can run the signal direct without any dsp adjustments in the receiver.

 Good luck.

[rodge827]

Just purchased some balanced cables, I've been using an XLR-RCA cable form my Dspeaker Dual Core 2.0.
I hope to receive them soon and do a comparison.

Chris 

[jk@home]

Just purchased some balanced cables, I've been using an XLR-RCA cable form my Dspeaker Dual Core 2.0.
I hope to receive them soon and do a comparison.

Chris

What balanced cables did you get? In the two channel system, I thought all balanced sounded better, even when using the extra op amps in the pre, to make the signals balanced.

Talk about going overboard with these amps...the balanced cables that I use going to the Crowns in the HT system (Mogami 2549s) are 10 footers, so I added Jensen Isomax output transformers to drive them from a Sony TAP9000. The Jensen units cost almost as much as the Crowns  , but I already had the two channel ones bought years ago, so just had to recently buy a mono version for the center channel. Right now using BJCs for the unbalanced, but have the material to replace them with more Mogamis, built in a single ended version.

[Oktyabr]

Yeah - you definetely need to see some movement on the input signal when you crank it up. Many have reported good results with both cheap amd expensive tube preamps. I use a cheap one (Little bear P3) with good results. There are also some people that connect speaker level from separate amp with home made cables with rca on one side and speaker connection on the other with some resistors in between. I want to try this at some point but haven't dared (convinced myself it is save) to do this with the other amp I have. This probably makes more sense if using the amps for subs.
Also check craigslist, ebay and guitar center for used stuff. A lot of pro audio can be had cheap if you look around abit.

Btw: if you are using it with an avr you may want to look into if you can manually adjust up the output level for the channels you send to the crown. May not work but at least worth a try. It also sounds like you have room correction on and another thing to do is to see if you can run the signal direct without any dsp adjustments in the receiver.

 Good luck.

Thanks.  I ordered that Rolls "ProMatch" unit and a pair of six foot XLR cables this morning.  We'll see how that goes.  I have a damn good headphone amp (Audio-Gd) that has pre out RCAs for powered speakers that I suspect might do the trick too but I hate to stuff it into my living room rack.

I thought about adjusting the output levels, raising them some more to see what happens, but that experiment will have to wait for this weekend.  I'll probably give a Yamaha desktop mixer with balanced TRS outs on it a go too.  Yes, you are correct.  The Yamaha version of room correction is what I used to set levels in conjunction with my center and rear surrounds.  However I always do my serious two channel listening in "pure direct" mode which bypasses all the EQ, DSP, etc.

I asked for a consensus on this in my first post and have googled about it some to no avail.  Is the Rolls unit considered any good?  Will I end up trying an ART converter too?  Someone else recommended a Behringer tube mic pre-amp that would look good in the rack and the price doesn't hurt that much either.  On a tangent has anyone seen any similar threads (pro amps in home audio) concerning the newer 1502?  I'm starting to wonder if my money wouldn't have been better spent going with the newer and more expensive version...  although the XLS 1500 for $199 is simply an astounding deal.

[jk@home]

The Apex units were recommended, I never needed one in my system though. See post 511.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105826.500

[Oktyabr]

The Apex units were recommended, I never needed one in my system though. See post 511.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105826.500

Thanks!  I just punched the "buy now" button on one.  I can't seem to find much information on this unit beyond the manufacturer's pdf.  Any reviews anywhere?  Looking at some of the ebay listings it seems that the Aphex units must have had a much higher MSRP than the ART Cleanbox Pro or the Rolls I ordered...