Crown XLS- for the rest of us!

Tomy2Tone · « **Reply #1260 on:** 27 Feb 2015, 03:26 pm »

Quote from: S Clark on 27 Feb 2015, 02:40 pm

The Crown is on its way to Texas, where it has two very different amps to compare to. A custom Dodd 6L6GC/6dj8 amp with about 50 wpc driving fairly efficient X-Statik speakers, and a modded Moscode 401HR 200 wpc driving big line source LS9 speakers. The LS9's are moderately efficient, but have significant back EMF that requires control for the speakers to really sound their best. The Crown could be a good match. We should see by the middle of next week. Stay tuned.

Sounds great S Clark!

Thanks Peter J for the great communication!

steve f · « **Reply #1261 on:** 27 Feb 2015, 05:30 pm »

Just curious. When will the Crown XLS amp tour end?

a.wayne · « **Reply #1262 on:** 27 Feb 2015, 06:23 pm »

When the warranty expires ........

Tomy2Tone · « **Reply #1263 on:** 27 Feb 2015, 07:14 pm »

Just an update on where the tour is...and is going.

S Clark- TX

gregfisk- WA

Bill of NY

barryso- Jersey

gregfisk · « **Reply #1264 on:** 2 Mar 2015, 06:46 pm »

Quote from: Tomy2Tone on 27 Feb 2015, 07:14 pm

Just an update on where the tour is...and is going.

S Clark- TX

gregfisk- WA

Bill of NY

barryso- Jersey

Hey Tommy,

I'll send S Clark my info. sometime today.

I just got my new Super V's set up which are very revealing so this should be a good speaker to here what the amp really sounds like.

Thanks for doing this tour, I look forward to hearing this amp, especially for the price.

Greg

Tomy2Tone · « **Reply #1265 on:** 2 Mar 2015, 06:53 pm »

Quote from: gregfisk on 2 Mar 2015, 06:46 pm

Hey Tommy,

I'll send S Clark my info. sometime today.

I just got my new Super V's set up which are very revealing so this should be a good speaker to here what the amp really sounds like.

Thanks for doing this tour, I look forward to hearing this amp, especially for the price.

Greg

No problem Greg!

I think S Clark should be getting the amp this week if he hasn't received it already. Yes, love to hear what your Super V's can do with the crown.

S Clark · « **Reply #1266 on:** 2 Mar 2015, 08:12 pm »

Haven't seen the amp yet, but we've had icy roads for several days so things may be a bit delayed. I'll be sure and PM when it arrives.

S Clark · « **Reply #1267 on:** 7 Mar 2015, 01:09 am »

I've been taking easy around the house today after leaving a molar with the dental surgeon yesterday, and with no wife about until Sat. it was the perfect time to install the Crown and put it though its paces.
The quick and dirty is that it does a few things well, many just so so, and some pretty poorly.

First I put it in for a 50+ wpc custom Dodd 6L6GC amp powering a set of X-Statik's in my small room system. These are pretty efficient, but are amp sensitive- they really didn't like a pair of monoblock 6qb5 amps that sound great on everything else. The more powerful Dodd just makes them come alive.
The first piece was super dynamic classical, Havergal Brian's 6th Sym. on Lyrica vinyl. The first thing that jumped at me was the much reduced sound stage presented by the Crown. The Dodd puts the orchestra well outside the speakers; the Crown reduced the orchestra and pushed the presentation much further into the hall- like moving from the 12 row to the balcony. The tone of most instrument were very real, especially woodwinds with great accuracy on the bass bassoon. Surprisingly, other tympani and bass drum were quite muddy and recessed. Strings were musical and well reproduced, but exact placement was not precise.
When a cd of the Manhattan Jazz Quintet's My Funny Valentine (great dynamics) was played, the drums lost all crispness and were quite flat and recessed. The piece lost the dynamics that makes the cd sought after.

Ok, the Crown had nice instrument tone, but that was about it.

Time to put it in the large room with the LS9 line arrays. They are powered by a modified Moscode 401HR. The space is L shaped with a 25x24' space connecting to another 25x23' space. It's a difficult room, with lots of absorptions and diffusers in place. The LS9s are capable of great orchestral dynamics, or can create a small jazz ensemble believably. The Crown goes in and first up is a chamber orchestra version of Copland's Appalachian Spring on Sound 80 vinyl. The soundstage is usually extended, but collapsed to all between the speakers. Instrument placements was still pretty good, but the tone was thin. Piano was dull, little reverb, and lifeless. Bass violin was muddy... I put on the vinyl of the Manhattan Jazz Quintet... no dynamics, no bass. I stopped it 30 seconds in.

Ok, now the Moscode is a damn nice amp (many better, I'm sure) and it wasn't especially cheap. The Custom Dodd is also a keeper. Gary built it just before his health went south, and he commented at the time that was one of his most advanced. The Crown has a sweet tone for strings and woodwinds, and seems to do vocals ok. But it's failings in soundstage, bass accuracy, and dynamics result in it being crossed off my list for an option for my systems. Is it a deal for the money??? maybe. Is it a giant killer? Not in my system. Thanks to Tommy for making this available. Just because it didn't work well with my system, doesn't mean it won't work in another.
I'll try to get it on it's way to the Greg probably Monday.

barryso · « **Reply #1268 on:** 10 Mar 2015, 12:53 am »

OK, I've been trying to wrap my brain around the difference between gain settings and sensitivity of home and pro gear. This may not be the place to ask but since this thread is about a pro amp it seemed like the right place.

Most pro amps like the Crown xls need 1.4 volts to drive them to their full output and most consumer amps require less. Understood.

It's also clear that too little gain or voltage from the preamp may not drive a pro amp to produce the dynamics and tonality it should. That's understood, too.

The specifications on the various preamps in my house range from 12 db fixed gain, 22 db fixed gain and one unit that is switchable from 8/16/24 db gain. The output of these preamps range from 10 vrms to 30 vrms with less than 1% distortion.

My question - is it about voltage or gain (or are they basically the same thing with different labels)? Does the gain or voltage output of the preamp indicate which unit would be more likely to drive a pro amp well? Is it simply a matter of the higher gain or higher voltage being the better choice of preamp?

*Scotty* · « **Reply #1269 on:** 10 Mar 2015, 03:20 am »

The logical thing to do here is to try each preamp and pick the one that sounds the best to you. With an input sensitivity of 1.4v, one or more of these preamps will most likely have a near unusable VOL pot. due barely being able to move it off the bottom before becoming too loud. Doing the math tells us that with a standard output digital source having 2volts out you will always being attenuating to less than or equal to the 1.4 volts input sensitivity of the power amp. Any more than 1.4 volts into the amp means you are into clipping.
You need 24 dB of gain like a hole in the head. Every 6dB gain means a doubling of the incoming voltage what ever it is. Starting with 2volts into 24db of gain equals 32volts out which is roughly 22.85 times more than the 1.4v input clipping level of the XLS amp.
Once again I reiterate, try them all and pick the one you like.
Scotty

barryso · « **Reply #1270 on:** 10 Mar 2015, 01:31 pm »

Thanks for the explanation Scotty. There are several threads on different audio forums regarding matching pro amps and non pro preamps and it gets confusing.

A DJ friend lent me a pro amp a while back and I set the attenuators on the pro amp down about 50 percent so the preamp could run at a higher output. That's supposed to increase dynamics and reduce the noise floor. In the end it seemed to sound more dynamic with the preamp running lower and the attenuators on the amp set much higher. That was a surprise ... it wasn't supposed to work that way.

Looking forward to hearing the Crown and experimenting with gear and settings. The main speakers are a tad laid back sounding so this amp may be a good pairing.

Thanks.

barnestn · « **Reply #1271 on:** 12 Mar 2015, 08:14 pm »

Should anyone be interested, I have a Crown XLS-2000 for sale in as new condition. I purchased from Crutchfield on 11/09/2014 and used it while trying to sell by Musica Bella Ibrido. As most know, the Crown is probably unbeatable at its price; it is not nearly as good as the Ibrido but good enough to live with until I decided on a good integrated. The Ibrido didn't sell (it is as new and can still be purchased for $1700) so I am trying to sell the Crown. The Crown is $375 and shipping is included on both amplifiers. Perfect feedback at Audiogon. Thanks, Bob.

gregfisk · « **Reply #1272 on:** 14 Mar 2015, 07:55 am »

Hello all,

I received the amp today so wanted to let Scott and Tommy know it made it to my place safe and sound. I may try to strengthen the box a bit as it's getting pretty soft. Scott did a great job at taping the heck out of it but I may try firming it up a bit before sending it back East.

Since the amp showed up today I'm going to stay home and not go to my beach house until next weekend because hey, this is fun and I can leave next weekend instead

S Clark · « **Reply #1273 on:** 14 Mar 2015, 01:14 pm »

The box was getting ragged when it got to me. I used reinforced tape in several places, but your right, it probably needs some additional tlc. Glad it arrived in one piece. Looking forward to your impressions.

Scott

Tomy2Tone · « **Reply #1274 on:** 14 Mar 2015, 03:18 pm »

Just an update on where the tour is...and is going.

gregfisk- WA

Pit stop in AZ

Bill of NY

barryso- Jersey

ljbrandt · « **Reply #1275 on:** 15 Mar 2015, 07:09 pm »

I just hooked my xls 2000 up today (bought used on ebay) to my mb quart vera bookshelvef speakers...

This amp is the real deal.

I've been using a Tripath 2020 T-amp (from indeed hifi) and have absolutely loved this amp...but having only 8w of real power, it comes up short when I want to really crank it.
I've been causally searching for an amp that can match the indeed's clarity and musicality but with a lot more oomph.

Tried a parasound z-amp...ok but not better than the indeed
Tried a Yamaha RZ-Z9 in pure direct mode...as good as the indeed and good power but the thing weighs 60+ lbs and runs pretty hot...not ideal for my desktop setup. Not to mention this was $4500 AVR back in the day.

Enter the crown - about as detailed and smooth as the T-amp, but incredible CONTROLLED power! The amp has the right sound, the right size and right price!

So far, I've only used my Stoner Accoustics UD120 usb DAC line out directly into the crown, but I've got a little bear P3 preamp I need to assemble and try with the 2000...things might get even sweeter!

ljbrandt · « **Reply #1276 on:** 16 Mar 2015, 03:05 am »

UPDATE w/ the little bear p3 pre-amp:

It's the icing on the cake. It's almost like this pre-amp was made for the crown. Odal hit the nail on the head...this amp needs a hot signal to sound its best!

I've got the gain between 8-9 o'clock and can use the full volume range on the preamp's volume pot

jk@home · « **Reply #1277 on:** 16 Mar 2015, 01:03 pm »

Quote from: ljbrandt on 16 Mar 2015, 03:05 am

UPDATE w/ the little bear p3 pre-amp:

It's the icing on the cake. It's almost like this pre-amp was made for the crown. Odal hit the nail on the head...this amp needs a hot signal to sound its best!

I've got the gain between 8-9 o'clock and can use the full volume range on the preamp's volume pot

Yes but is that good, bad or indifferent? I understand a high gain pre is best with this amp (mine has I think 10dB gain). But running my crowns at 12 o clock puts the volume control of the pre basically in the middle of it's range. Which I though is the best way to run a level control. Of course my pre uses one of the electronic ladder types, so it may not even apply in this case.

I can turn my 1500s down to 9 o'clock and still have usable range on the pre, but on the high end of the scale. But is this optimal? The hiss level out of the speakers does not change, or if it does, by not much. Just askin.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #1278 on:** 16 Mar 2015, 01:47 pm »

I'd say it will depend on the particular gear involved. Explore that area where there is low noise floor and a usable, preferable amount of volume control.

gregfisk · « **Reply #1279 on:** 18 Mar 2015, 02:14 am »

Hi all,

So I spent most of the weekend with the XLS 1500, my Wife decided to head up to our beach house and leave me here to listen and compare amps. I just can't imagine why she would do that

I like to know what equipment people are using so here is a list for those who care.

Sources: mac mini with M2tech stack, Pure i20 dock with ipod classic and Integra SACD, DVD, CD player.
Dac: Metrum Octave
Preamp: Joule Electra 150MK11SE
Amps: Butler 2250 hybrid and TBI Mellenia with upgraded binding posts and RCAs. "I also tried a studio amp I bought for $15.00 at a thrift store, Alesis 5150

"
Speakers: Super Vs with Jupiter cap upgrade.
Cabling: Mogami Neglex interconnects and fire hose speaker cables "can't remember the brand"?

Realize that the bass is taken care of with the four 12" servo subs and servo amps so that's a constant and the bass IMO is amazing.
I had been using my Butler amp since I finished my Super Vs which has been the last couple of weeks so that's what I was used to. I feel that the differences you hear are most noticeable in the first couple of minutes or switching and after that you start to get used to whatever it is your listening to, my opinion anyway. The first thing I noticed with the 1500 was everything seemed tipped up a bit, the voices were not as full and seemed a little higher pitched, same with the instruments. I also noticed that the sound stage thinned out and moved more in between the speakers. I thought the sound stage was still pretty good but much narrower and a bit thin in comparison to the Butler. I thought the detail was very good and I could here all of the instruments and the sound was very clear and crisp. After about 20 minutes I really started to enjoy the sound and the sky was the limit when it came to volume, the amp never ran out of gas and that's saying a lot as I have a very large room.

I then connected my TBI Melenia amps of which I have two. I had not had time to connect these yet to my Super Vs which is why I bought them in the first place. As soon as I hit play I was blown away by the tonality of the music, it was like it just came alive. I swear I was hearing a tube amp and the music was live because of all the texture and tone of the vocals and instruments, the music just seemed more right to me somehow. The one issue with the TBI amps was I couldn't really turn them up to really loud SPLs which sometimes I like to do. If you don't need a lot of power, have efficient speakers or don't listen very loud I would seriously look at the TBI amps, they are really something IMO at least with my Super Vs. The TBIs didn't work very well with my Aerial 7b speakers because the 7bs like a lot of power. I had hoped to try the 1500 with the 7bs but didn't get a change to move those speakers back into place.

I switched back and forth probably 8 times between the 3 amps and In conclusion I think the Crown 1500 is a great amp for someone who wants good clean sound or has a system that leans to the warm side. It seems like a good match for a preamp with what people consider the older tube sound. The 1500 is clean watts and a lot of them, pretty fun all and all. While I like a fuller warmer presentation I can see a lot of people really liking this amp.

Thank You Tommy for making this possible, I had a lot of fun last weekend and appreciate the opportunity.

Greg