[roscoeiii]

Yeah jackman and I heard something similar. Forward pre with this amp wasn't the best  match.

[Mojo Warrior]

Yeah, usually when one adds extra adapters / connections in a system, it affects the resolution in a bad way.

For giggles and kicks, I had tried going single ended from my preamp, into a high quality Jensen Isomax converting tranny, to the Crown's balanced connections, but found just going from the pre's xlrs (with the converting op amps inside doing the work) sounded better. Probably because of less connections and cables involved.

Also have to say, Magnepans can be pretty finicky with different amp setups. The other pro amps I have (Mackies and Yamahas), didn't sound that good on my MMGs. The Mackies, which were the worst sounding on the Maggies, do just fine in the HT system driving Paradigm Studios.

That said, comparing this $350 amp to high end audiophile amps is interesting reading, but really does the audio cheapskate little good. You know, the guys who have to buy this amp cause of their budget. I would love to see more comparisons with amps like Class D Audio and Emotiva, and other amps in close to the same or slightly more price range.

I am surprised at how good the Class D amps sound. They've  been on 24/7 for a couple of weeks. They have  kicked a couple of well regarded tube and solid state amps to the curb. I never bought into the idea of keeping amps on continuously. I have to eat my words on this one. I'm in agreement with rollo.

steve

+1

I would like to see more "apples to apples" comparisons. There seems to be general agreement that the Crown XLS series is a budget amplifier winner. I am very curious how other Pro amplifiers in the same price range perform. The Behringer iNuke DSP series sell for about half the price of the Crowns, have the same basic Class D design and include DSP which would be a great feature in equalizing speakers and room deviations, which would make a much, much greater SQ improvement than binding posts and power cords. I am very tempted to buy the Behringer but currently I am up to my earlobes with amplifiers.

[OzarkTom]

I would like to see more "apples to apples" comparisons. There seems to be general agreement that the Crown XLS series is a budget amplifier winner. I am very curious how other Pro amplifiers in the same price range perform. The Behringer iNuke DSP series sell for about half the price of the Crowns, have the same basic Class D design and include DSP which would be a great feature in equalizing speakers and room deviations, which would make a much, much greater SQ improvement than binding posts and power cords. I am very tempted to buy the Behringer but currently I am up to my earlobes with amplifiers.

I would try one before I bought it, most pro amps do not sound this good. I tried out a Peavey amp a couple or three years ago, modified by TRL, but the TBI sounded better.  I have a strong feeling the Drivecore chip is the strength of these Crown amps. Go on searchtempest.com to find a used 1500 for 150-200 bucks.

[SteveFord]

The Big System:
Magnepan 3.7s, deHavilland Ultraverve3 preamp, Well Tempered Square motor/Ortofon 2M Black cartridge, Jolida JD9 phono pre w/ JJ tubes, SVS subwoofer

The speakers are better than the 1.7s and the preamp is more of your traditional smooth tube sound.  Picture Perry Como instead of Alice Cooper.
I used a Supra LoRad power cord directly into the wall, RCA to RCA and here's the good:
detail, width of soundstage, highs
here's the bad:
depth of soundstage, bass is artificial, pronounced and kind of thuddy sounding (to use an audiophile term).
It wouldn't be much of a review without using the word "palpable" so there, I've used it.

Let's try plugging it into an APC power conditioner:
the bass no longer stuck out like a sore thumb but it also wiped out the top end.
Okay, APC and XLR to RCA:
the overall sound was a bit duller than before
Final attempt, plug into the wall with the XLR to RCA:
probably the best of the bunch for long term listening.
The bass wasn't as pronounced as when it was just plugged into the wall using the RCA to RCA but the top end took a hit as well which wasn't so good.  If you could dial the bass down a notch or two I'd say into the wall, RCA to RCA would be the way to go. 

While I'm on a roll, onto the MMGs.  That preamp has tone controls so I think I can get what I'm after (he says, hopefully).

[roscoeiii]

Steve, what gain are you using on the XLS? I prefer mine at 2 or 3  o'clock. Some like it at noon.

[poseidonsvoice]

Gents, I'm thinking of getting a tube preamp and running my Dual Core on an input similar to what Tomy2Tone is doing.

Would this preamp be a good choice for the Crown XLS amplifier as far as impedance matching and output?

http://www.transcendentsound.com/Transcendent/Masterpiece.html







Chris

Chris,

Sorry about resurrecting the old post, but also consider Doc B's Bee Pre preamplifier kit as well. Whether you go for Transcendent or Bottlehead, you'll have a great, fun design to listen to. I'm sure there are other 300B based preamps but I don't want to derail the thread any further. And don't forget...what you choose for the volume control, whether it's an ALPS, a stepped attenuator, TVC's or LDR (like Tortuga) can have a STRONG influence on the final sound.





http://bottlehead.com/?product=beepre-300b-preamplifier-kit

Best,
Anand.

[Mojo Warrior]

I would try one before I bought it, most pro amps do not sound this good. I tried out a Peavey amp a couple or three years ago, modified by TRL, but the TBI sounded better.  I have a strong feeling the Drivecore chip is the strength of these Crown amps. Go on searchtempest.com to find a used 1500 for 150-200 bucks.

I recently acquired an XLS 2500 and I am very pleased with the sound. Both Crown and Behringer are very protective about the identification of the chips they use. "Drivecore" is a proprietary brand/name of a chip sourced from TI, I believe. They are probably manufactured and sold in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. A head to head comparison of Crown and Behringer may shed even more light on the similarities and differences. It makes me wonder if the chips are labeled or the identity is obscured.

If I have learned anything from owning Drivecore, TPA2024 and TDA3116D2 chip based amps is they are all excellent amps and any differences in SQ are subtle.

I am very curious if any others have tried the iNuke with DSP and their opinions, positive or negative. Like I said, I am currently up to my ears in amplifiers. The DSP is a compelling feature and at half the price. Properly executed amplifiers, should not add anything to the sound of the source. Theoretically, pro amps should be neutral sounding but offer plenty of power and headroom. 


EDIT:  I spoke to a pro audio service technician and the bottom line is the Behringers are built with the absolute lowest cost components to achieve their price point. If they develop problems they are basically "disposable" as parts have been typically unavailable. Consequently, the failure rate is much higher. If the unit fails and is under warranty, Behringer usually replaces the amp.

[SteveFord]

Gain: around 12:00 with the SF, 2:00 with the deHavilland

Last One
MMGs, CC5 center channel driven by refurbed Bryston 3B, modified Carver C-1 preamp, Oppo CD player, Yaqin tube buffer
Crown RCA to RCA plugged right into the wall

NAILED IT!!!
I don't know if it's the preamp or the speakers but this one is just right.  I suspect it's a combination of both.
Tone controls and Sonic Holography can come in handy.
It sounds really good - clear, the bass isn't thudding away like crazy, it's not all harsh and grainy, it just sounds right in this system.
If that Hafler doesn't drive me insane upstairs I'll purchase a Crown for the MMGs and use the Hafler for a stopgap amp until I purchase another set of tube mono blocks to replace the set I sold to buy that Martin guitar I'm so fond of.

I would like to thank the owner for allowing me to participate in this tour.
I learned a few things with all of the screwing around with it and it's always fun to hear new things and see if you can't figure out where they'll fit in.  It's the horses for courses bit.
I'll send a PM to the next victim but won't be able to mail it until next Saturday. 

[roscoeiii]

Said  it before, will say it again: synergy is everything.

[zapper7]

Hey Guys,

I purchased 2 Crown XLS2500 amps a month ago and did the binding post mod so I can fit the spades and bananas I have. They have been on all the time and operating over 200 hrs at this point.

System:
Wadia 170 dock into a Bel Canto DAC3 running the amps being considered. Kimber 10TC for bass and Tara Labs Master Gen 1 for the mids and highs. Speakers are the NHT T6 towers that are an 8 ohm load at 87db and which require bi-amping given their separate upper and lower cabinets. The comparisons are done on the top section of the T6 speakers running with no limiting crossover on the bottom frequencies. I had a feeling the top sections of the speakers will reveal what are the best and worst attributes of each amp as the bottom frequencies are where most all class d amps shine anyway.

Amps Compared:
Crown XLS2500, a Class D CDA1000 kit doing 500w x 2 into 8 ohms, and a DAC Cherry Classic amp. All running with Wegerzyn 12 gage power cord directly into separate dedicated 30a circuits. I enjoy my music at levels between 80 and 100 on my Bel Canto, so as loud as the system components can play well in most cases.

Overall Power:
It is clear that the Class D although rated the highest does not have the power to keep up with the other 2 at the same volume level. The Crown is set at (-) 2 clicks from max to match the output of the Cherry. Also the Class D in my system has a higher pitched hmm while the other 2 are dead quiet, which is impressive give the power the Crown and Cherry have.
The Cherry is a very well designed and constructed amp and the first time I have owned one.

The track notes: (I like a regular variety of modern music, although not the best recordings in some cases);

Lithium = Evanescence:
XLS = dynamic, semi-lush sound, good retrieval of music
Class D = mellow, thinner retrieval, less dynamics, small stage
Cherry = lush, big stage, good dynamics, good retrieval
#1 = Cherry-XLS-Class D
A thinner recording requiring the best amp to sound good

Fire in the Rain = Adele:
XLS = slightly hot, tall stage, dynamic but slight veil on music
Class D = pleasant, nice tone, slight veil, good bass
Cherry = good tone, good retrieval, air, big stage, sounds “right”
#1 = Cherry-Class D-XLS
Big recording rewarding those amps with a more neutral presentation

Best I Can = Queensryche, 24bit recording:
XLS = good stage, clear, dynamic, nice tone
Class D = smaller stage, veil, mellow, no air
Cherry = good bass, excellent retrieval, open & airy, dynamic
#1 = Cherry-XLS-Class D
A good higher rez recording with a lot going on in the music rewarding amps with the best space-stage-openness

Awake and Alive = Skillet:
XLS = dynamic, nice stage, slightly compressed, not great tone or air
Class D = slightly veil and thin, smaller stage, good bass, slightly compressed
Cherry = big stage, dynamic, good tone, air
#1 = Cherry-Class D-XLS
Compressed modern recording giving the advantage to amps being more open and bringing out the individual instruments


Unbreak My Heart = Tony Braxton:
XLS = nice stage, good bass, slight air, dynamic
Class D = polite, thinner sound, small stage, slight veil, blotted bass
Cherry = smooth, big stage, lush, open airy, good tone
#1 = Cherry-XLS-Class D
Good recording with an overall warmer tone making it pretty easy on an amp


Given the price difference I expected to the Cherry to excel. It is the most powerful and best sounding amp I have had in my system. I was happy how well the other 2 stood against the Cherry, but I believe the Class D would pair well with a more efficient/dynamic sounding speaker given its more laid-back presentation while the XLS would do better with speakers having a warmer signature as the dynamics and forward presentation is the amp’s personality as I heard it. The Cherry and Class D have 1000+ hrs while the XLS amps are new so they may settle more than the 200 hrs I have on them. I am aware of the other mods being done that would possibly get the XLS towards the Cherry, or I can just stick with the Cherry.

I will try bridging the XLS against the Cherry to see if I can get a more open and better toned sound out of the music, my adjectives here as more of a musician.

[zapper7]

Wow, this is a hot topic today with more than 1 review, God Bless the weekends.

[DaveC113]

Thanks for the reports SteveFord! 

It is interesting to hear about everyone's experience with the Crown.

After I recover from the holidays (yes, still swamped  ) and get my 2014 books taken care of I will do the RCA and IEC jack mods and replace the steel straps for the binding posts with copper wire. I think this will get rid of any remaining grain from the poor quality connectors and steel "wiring" associated with them.... yes, it's a lot of work/expense for a ~$250 amp but I think the results will be well worth it. There is very good synergy happening in my system with the Crown amp, much of it has to do with the high gain, full bodied tube preamp I'm using, but I also think that my Omega speakers are a good load for it, no crossover and easy to drive.

edit: thanks to you as well zapper7! 

[Tomy2Tone]

Thanks Steve and Zapper for some great feedback!

[Tomy2Tone]

Just an update on where the tour is...and is going.


jtsnead- MD

Freo-1- MA

Peter J- ID

S Clark- TX

gregfisk- WA

Bill of NY

[SteveFord]

One final note on how it all worked out - the Hafler turned out to be a really good match for the Sonic Frontiers preamp. 
I just chucked it onto my wife's MMG system where it sounded pretty muddy and cruddy but upstairs it sounds just right.  Instead of muddy and cruddy it's full bodied.
You never know until you try it.

[SteveFord]

Everybody is bowing out.
Peter J, are you still in?

[a.wayne]

Interesting to see if Freo likes the extra power .......

[jk@home]

Thanks Steve and Zapper for some great feedback!

+1!

Regarding the iNuke, I'm pretty sure the fan is much louder, not sure if it can be modded.

[zapper7]

As much as I agree with comparing to the other pro audio amps, I believe the majority are looking to replace actual audio amps with less power (of course) with these great pro finds.

That's why I made sure the Cherry was in the line-up as the audiophile grade amp for comparison. It is the not-normal audiophile amp with its great power and quite good sound.

Right now I am making all changes possible here to make the crowns sound better, ....still going on...

[zapper7]

The bridged Crowns did not do as expected...no change the in actual sound of that amp, I do like the power but...