Crown XLS- for the rest of us!

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Folsom

Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #620 on: 11 Dec 2014, 10:40 pm »
The PFC section, if I remember the exact size, has big enough caps to essentially play the amp at full RMS volume for at least a second if not several. As long as your bass beats aren't too fast, you'll be thrilling the young and killing the old at the club.

maplegrovemusic

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Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #621 on: 11 Dec 2014, 11:17 pm »
I own two XLS 2500 running bridged . My landlord is a total utility cost freak . He brought down his watt meter to test my amps . At idle not playing music they drew 71 watts from the wall . Music at around 90db they rose to 75 watts . Pretty amazing results !

Russell Dawkins

Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #622 on: 11 Dec 2014, 11:30 pm »
I own two XLS 2500 running bridged . My landlord is a total utility cost freak . He brought down his watt meter to test my amps . At idle not playing music they drew 71 watts from the wall . Music at around 90db they rose to 75 watts . Pretty amazing results !
Glad to see that's close to what I speculated back in post #610 yesterday. Always nice to have actual measurements.

roscoeiii

Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #623 on: 11 Dec 2014, 11:30 pm »
I own two XLS 2500 running bridged . My landlord is a total utility cost freak . He brought down his watt meter to test my amps . At idle not playing music they drew 71 watts from the wall . Music at around 90db they rose to 75 watts . Pretty amazing results !

Now that is some power! What speakers are you driving and what is the rest of your set-up? Do you have the XLS gain at 100%, or dialed down at all? Any tips for the rest of us?

maplegrovemusic

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Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #624 on: 12 Dec 2014, 12:17 am »
My speakers are electrostats called KingSound King . Along with a pair of Adam Audio Column MK3 . Use a Grace m903 dac , and a SM Pro  - nanopatch volume controller .All cabling is Mogami .All digital files from mac mini running Audirvana + . My gain is set at 3 o clock. I had tried bi amping with another set of 1500 to no sonic advantages . Also have a pair of hypex nc400 mono blocks , Which amps i prefer changes weekly . Also useing Pangea ac14xl power cords on the amps as well as a furman two outlet power conditioner.

After reading about some here upgrading binding posts , i will be doing that soon . I do not find the treble bright at all . They seem pretty neutrall in my system .

roscoeiii

Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #625 on: 12 Dec 2014, 12:35 am »
Oh you can answer a number of interesting questions.

what are the differences you hear between the XLS and ncore in your system?

Have you tried biamping the 2500 vs.  bridged monos?

Nice to hear from someone with a  different type speaker.

maplegrovemusic

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Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #626 on: 12 Dec 2014, 01:54 am »
Roscoeiii , The crowns seem slightly more detailed , with more precise imaging . Bass is tighter , . Ncores seem to have more bloom around notes , and have a deeper-wider sound stage .

as far as bi amping . do you mean using channel one for bass and channel two for tweeters ? if so , have not done that.

one note on my speakers . Factory built they have a severe drop in ohms at 1500- 2500 hz. Dropping below 1.5 ohms .Mine have been modded , since modification they do not drop below 4 ohms at any frequencies. So before the mods, bridging was not an option. 

Even as a single stereo amp it drives my speakers really well  , adding a second one for bridged mono brings some advantages , for the extra $500 it was worth it , but i could live with just one and be content .

dlaloum

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Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #627 on: 12 Dec 2014, 01:56 am »
My speakers are electrostats called KingSound King . Along with a pair of Adam Audio Column MK3 . Use a Grace m903 dac , and a SM Pro  - nanopatch volume controller .All cabling is Mogami .All digital files from mac mini running Audirvana + . My gain is set at 3 o clock. I had tried bi amping with another set of 1500 to no sonic advantages . Also have a pair of hypex nc400 mono blocks , Which amps i prefer changes weekly . Also useing Pangea ac14xl power cords on the amps as well as a furman two outlet power conditioner.

After reading about some here upgrading binding posts , i will be doing that soon . I do not find the treble bright at all . They seem pretty neutrall in my system .

When I ran ESL's (Quad 57, 63, 989) - I was always careful about max voltage into them as it would cause arcing and the panels would self destruct...

With an amp capable of this much power, and such high voltage, are you not worried running it with stats? Or does the kingsound have some sort of foolproof protection system (the 63 & 989's are supposed to have a protection circuit, but it doesn't kick in quick enough to protect the panels from dynamic peaks!)

Tomy2Tone

Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #628 on: 12 Dec 2014, 02:17 am »
Roscoeiii , The crowns seem slightly more detailed , with more precise imaging . Bass is tighter , . Ncores seem to have more bloom around notes , and have a deeper-wider sound stage .

Thanks for your comparisons! Glad roscoeiii asked.

The fact you go back and forth with both amps regularly, would you say you could live either amp if given the choice? Thanks!

maplegrovemusic

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Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #629 on: 12 Dec 2014, 02:29 am »
dnlalum , funny you should mention arcing ! With what seems like unlimited power I do have to be careful . I can pretty much drive the speakers to what seems like endless volume without distortion. The speakers do have a special "nano" coating on the panels to help . They also have another safe guard which is hard to explain . I once heard a pop at a volume I do not normally listen to . Luckily I had my hand on the volume controller and backed off immediately. That was one of those instances were I was testing the amps and speakers limits ( which I feel I no longer need to do )

tommy2tone , I definitely can live with either . In fact I had the ncores up for sale last month on agon . At a I do not want to sell price , and I am glad they did not sell .

OzarkTom

Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #630 on: 12 Dec 2014, 02:41 am »
Roscoeiii , The crowns seem slightly more detailed , with more precise imaging .

And this is the reason my buddy Rex and  I are selling our Job amps. Rex already sold his.

a.wayne

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Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #631 on: 12 Dec 2014, 03:04 am »
It's about current draw and heat dissipation - needed to determine circuit breaker and ventilation requirements. The 1/3 power rating is to show conditions at maximum possible draw - not a condition you would ever operate intentionally under ("heavy clipping") but it is possible to draw that much. The absolute maximum draw in normal operation would be the rating just above that: 1/8th power ("just at clip"). Since we're talking average program material, with 1/8th power we would be hitting clip on peaks, typically, so we're peaking at 650 w, averaging 81 watts (that's a screaming average power!) and at the same time drawing 4.32 peak amps from the wall. That's 518 watts draw, peak. Under typical listening conditions in the home, you wouldn't be drawing as much as 5 average watts, even playing loud, into the typical speaker. The useful figure is the 0.7 amps it draws when awake but at idle. That's 84 watts with 31 watts dissipated as heat. That's what you will be drawing at any sane listening level (up to 13 watts, RMS or average).

Again, that's in heavy clipping - you would never intentionally go or stay there. It's to know the maximum possible draw from the wall, so you won't blow a critical (like the one feeding the lights at the bar) circuit breaker if you do something stupid, like short the outputs with a 4 gauge jumper cable.

 I'm not  sure where you are getting all these assumptions from Russel , are you saying the Crowns  quiescient  draw is .7 amp, that doesnt sound right for a class-d amplifier nor is its RMS power rating, which  is not at clipping but at .5% thd, it would be pulling 1k+ from the wall to produce its rms rated output ...

Regards ..

a.wayne

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Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #632 on: 12 Dec 2014, 03:31 am »
I would think that, again, in terms of typical - even loud - domestic use, it wouldn't make any difference in terms of speaker protection. All the limiter is doing is preventing the amp from going into heavy clipping and sending those nasties down the line. I think heavy clipping on this amp would occur at a power point well beyond that at which the typical 2" voice coil on a typical 8-10"woofer had become incandescent. In other words, even with the limiter engaged you would fry your speakers before the amp broke a sweat.
I remember Bob Smith (of SPTech/Aether) saying that his speakers' woofer was so clean the voice coil would fry before you heard any signs of distress. Many speakers will signal their distress before damage is done, but these days, with ultra long excursion woofers being quite common and their design preventing voice coil bottoming as an early warning sound, many speakers will fry before they cry.

So...caution is called for. Don't plug/unplug interconnects nor drop the needle in the groove at max gain!

Thanks for the mention, Jim.

Clipping on dynamic peaks is very possible , even thou it would become unlistenable long before that,  i can also see the limiter affecting sonics, so bypassing is not a bad idea .... Dirty power will burn speakers fast , hash is bash ... :)


Regards ...

a.wayne

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Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #633 on: 12 Dec 2014, 03:36 am »
Edit

a.wayne

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Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #634 on: 12 Dec 2014, 03:42 am »
dnlalum , funny you should mention arcing ! With what seems like unlimited power I do have to be careful . I can pretty much drive the speakers to what seems like endless volume without distortion. The speakers do have a special "nano" coating on the panels to help . They also have another safe guard which is hard to explain . I once heard a pop at a volume I do not normally listen to . Luckily I had my hand on the volume controller and backed off immediately. That was one of those instances were I was testing the amps and speakers limits ( which I feel I no longer need to do )

tommy2tone , I definitely can live with either . In fact I had the ncores up for sale last month on agon . At a I do not want to sell price , and I am glad they did not sell .

Do you think the crown will drive below 2 ohm , as the stock King sound ESL represents ...?

Russell Dawkins

Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #635 on: 12 Dec 2014, 04:57 am »
I'm not  sure where you are getting all these assumptions from Russel , are you saying the Crowns  quiescient  draw is .7 amp, that doesnt sound right for a class-d amplifier nor is its RMS power rating, which  is not at clipping but at .5% thd, it would be pulling 1k+ from the wall to produce its rms rated output ...
Regards ..

.7 amps is the power drawn by the 2000 in what Crown describes as "awake but idle" mode. Unless the amp has a sleep mode (which I searched for but could not find) that is its quiescent mode and the draw surprised me, too. Many amps draw less than that when idle.

I don't think there are many assumptions in what I posted; I was interpreting the information by interpolating the numbers in the chart Scotty linked to. It's worth having a close look at those numbers.

You say the amp would become unlistenable long before clipping on peaks. Why? The best minds (like Anthony Michaelson of Musical Fidelity, I posted his statement here:  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=38733.40 ) have it that we are listening to amps clipping much more than we realize and, since most amps don't recover well or quickly from clipping incidents, the simplest solution is to have so much power that the amp never clips - either that or design an amp that clips gracefully, like most tube amps. That's what's behind the effortless sound of very high power solid state amps.

Sorry, I don't have time to go further into this at the moment - we are leaving for a cross country flight at the crack of dawn tomorrow and I haven't packed yet.

I got no response the last time I posted that text by Michaelson and I wouldn't be surprised if I get no response this time, but I do suggest reading it for the start to a deeper understanding of what is actually demanded of an amplifier in terms of power. It's also good to be keep in the back of your mind, while determining amplifier needs, that most good recordings have a crest factor (peak to average power ratio) of around 15 dB. I try to allow for 20 dB. Those who have not really thought this through often presume a crest factor of around 3 dB in their calcualtions.

Live and learn.

maplegrovemusic

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Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #636 on: 12 Dec 2014, 05:10 am »
awayne , I used the 2500 in stereo mode before the mod to the kings . It worked fine . no stress was evident .

DaveC113

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Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #637 on: 12 Dec 2014, 08:54 pm »
I have a 2nd 1500 on the way.  :)

I don't need the power for my Omegas, but it will be interesting to see how it does in mono... and when I get my bass cabs done the built-in crossovers will be fun to play with.

a.wayne

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Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #638 on: 12 Dec 2014, 09:10 pm »
awayne , I used the 2500 in stereo mode before the mod to the kings . It worked fine . no stress was evident .

Tks .....

barrows

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Re: Crown XLS- for the rest of us!
« Reply #639 on: 12 Dec 2014, 09:14 pm »
Actually, one of the benefits of class D amps over A/AB is that class D amps do not start having distortion rise before clipping, their distortion profile is much flatter, and hence they maintain good sonics until they clip.
Unlike traditional amps, class D amps do not benefit from huge power headroom.