[Occam]

Ummm.... or use the extant, built in, excellent Neutrik Speakons.
Indeed, most here would prefer to use their already configured for binding post speaker cables.
I'd simply use a single 4 pole SPX Speakon plug, to which you could solder up to a 10 ga wire to each pole or 12 ga wire via screw, and break it out to the 2 channels from the plug. The CH1 Neutrik connector on the back of the XLS has both channels...

[DaveC113]

The differences you described is way more than 5-10% to me , it may not justify 3 times the cost to some , but if you are serious about hi-fi , no way to live with the lesser amplifier ....

NCore - 1
Crown - 0

I was thinking about this and I see the point, if money is no object just buy the best even if it's further down the road of diminishing returns, but if you have a budget the choice is not so easy.

I think the significance of having an a good amp at a very low price will be for those looking for the best bang for their buck in a system in the ~$15-20k or under range. If you can spend ~$500 for two Crown XLS 1500s, giving you ~1kW in 8 ohms, then the rest of your budget can be spent on buying a better source and speakers. The lower your budget, the more significant the availability of a cheap but good amp becomes. I also think they are a better choice vs a plate amp for subwoofers.

I'm not going to blow things out of proportion and say the Crown is better than amps 10x it's price... it's not a better amp than the Odyssey Stratos or my EL34 SET, but the SET is very limited in power and when I'm using the Crown I'm not thinking "it could sound better...", I have no urges to throw the SET amp on for music that it is more suitable for. The differences vs the Stratos are not night and day either, in some ways the Crown may be better.


Drivecore amps are not a true balanced design, there shouldn't be much difference in using the RCA vs XLR ins, but there could be big differences in the RCA vs XLR outs of the pre you are using to test it as well as sound of the different cables used. Crown has other lines of amps that are balanced class D with differential outputs.


Ronny, there are no SC leads, you'd have to solder them in yourself. I'd just go with a copper binding post, Pomona makes some for about $9 each, Cardas aren't horribly expensive either. Expensive binding posts don't make too much sense in this context... I'd only use Speakons if you're going to install them yourself since they are non-standard and you'd need to change back to spades or bananas for most any other amp, which is a hassle even if you do it yourself.

[Folsom]

Has anyone tried the signal output chain option for actively controlling crossover on speakers?

[a.wayne]

It is silly of you to conclude which is the better amplifier when there has not been a scientific test, let alone publication of all the variables.  For example, RCA inputs were used.  The Crown sounds its best with balanced inputs from a fully balanced preamplifier.   Here is my earlier post on how to get the best from the Crown:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=130191.msg1376662#msg1376662

Whats Silly is your opinion trumping Zack or anyone else,  zak picked a winner , I reiterated what he said, topping off the irony , your's is not a scientific test ..

[Occam]

......
Drivecore amps are not a true balanced design, there shouldn't be much difference in using the RCA vs XLR ins, but there could be big differences in the RCA vs XLR outs of the pre you are using to test it as well as sound of the different cables used. Crown has other lines of amps that are balanced class D with differential outputs.
......

Differential, schmifferential.... Its the balanced input impedance of properly implemented balanced inputs, with its ability to reject common mode noise and minimize ground loop issues that are IMO the primary benefit. FWIW

[ZAKski288]

Mr. Occam, I have the number of the vishay  4n7 K  300v  Y2, 3386 MPK  L  1236 small gray in front and back of coil. Coil #141736-1  BMC  1240,yellow  item Carli 1.0k275v-x2  MPX40 / 100 / 56. ZAK

[a.wayne]

I was thinking about this and I see the point, if money is no object just buy the best even if it's further down the road of diminishing returns, but if you have a budget the choice is not so easy.

I think the significance of having an a good amp at a very low price will be for those looking for the best bang for their buck in a system in the ~$15-20k or under range. If you can spend ~$500 for two Crown XLS 1500s, giving you ~1kW in 8 ohms, then the rest of your budget can be spent on buying a better source and speakers. The lower your budget, the more significant the availability of a cheap but good amp becomes. I also think they are a better choice vs a plate amp for subwoofers.

I'm not going to blow things out of proportion and say the Crown is better than amps 10x it's price... it's not a better amp than the Odyssey Stratos or my EL34 SET, but the SET is very limited in power and when I'm using the Crown I'm not thinking "it could sound better...", I have no urges to throw the SET amp on for music that it is more suitable for. The differences vs the Stratos are not night and day either, in some ways the Crown may be better.


Drivecore amps are not a true balanced design, there shouldn't be much difference in using the RCA vs XLR ins, but there could be big differences in the RCA vs XLR outs of the pre you are using to test it as well as sound of the different cables used. Crown has other lines of amps that are balanced class D with differential outputs.


Ronny, there are no SC leads, you'd have to solder them in yourself. I'd just go with a copper binding post, Pomona makes some for about $9 each, Cardas aren't horribly expensive either. Expensive binding posts don't make too much sense in this context... I'd only use Speakons if you're going to install them yourself since they are non-standard and you'd need to change back to spades or bananas for most any other amp, which is a hassle even if you do it yourself.

+1 on the balanced agenda ....

I feel you but i was more or less not thinking 20K but 2k budget range as most were comparing to others in this range. What seems small and insignificant to some is night and day  to others , the sonic differences as described by zak seems significant to me , it may or may not be in my system or to my ears  and  he did pick the Ncore as the winner..

[DaveC113]

Differential, schmifferential.... Its the balanced input impedance of properly implemented balanced inputs, with its ability to reject common mode noise and minimize ground loops issues that are IMO the primary benefit. FWIW

I only mentioned it because someone else said it sounded better using the XLR ins, I don't think the amp will sound better using it's XLR ins all things being equal as it does not have a true balanced input, it'll sound better only if the XLR outs on the preamp and cables used happen to sound better, which may vary. The point being people shouldn't expect an improvement if they use the XLR inputs, it might be better or it might not depending on the preamp and cables involved.

a.wayne, I was thinking $20k for the entire system. For example if I had $15k Id but 2 XLS 1500s, a Sony HAP-Z1 EX, a tube buffer and a pair of Nimbus Black or used TAD Evos. I don't think buying cheaper speakers and an amp that will be better than the Crowns would get you a better system.

[ZAKski288]

More inside pictures ZAK

[OzarkTom]

+1 on the balanced agenda ....

I feel you but i was more or less not thinking 20K but 2k budget range as most were comparing to others in this range. What seems small and insignificant to some is night and day  to others , the sonic differences as described by zak seems significant to me , it may or may not be in my system or to my ears  and  he did pick the Ncore as the winner..

And then the money saved on the amps, about $1600, could go for a better power cord and better speaker cables, or even better speakers like Dave suggested. That would make a bigger difference in your SQ than the sound difference in these two amps are.

[a.wayne]

I only mentioned it because someone else said it sounded better using the XLR ins, I don't think the amp will sound better using it's XLR ins all things being equal as it does not have a true balanced input, it'll sound better only if the XLR outs on the preamp and cables used happen to sound better, which may vary. The point being people shouldn't expect an improvement if they use the XLR inputs, it might be better or it might not depending on the preamp and cables involved.

a.wayne, I was thinking $20k for the entire system. For example if I had $15k Id but 2 XLS 1500s, a Sony HAP-Z1 EX, a tube buffer and a pair of Nimbus Black or used TAD Evos. I don't think buying cheaper speakers and an amp that will be better than the Crowns would get you a better system.

Ok 17 K on an set of Infinity IRS's and a pr of crowns ....

[a.wayne]

More inside pictures ZAK

Scott Wurcer must be blushing .......

[Tomy2Tone]

And then the money saved on the amps, about $1600, could go for a better power cord and better speaker cables, or even better speakers like Dave suggested. That would make a bigger difference in your SQ than the sound difference in these two amps are.

 

There's a crazy guy over at ZenWave audio that has crazy good cables. I think he made a deal with the devil or somethin cause they sound gooood! 

[OzarkTom]

There's a crazy guy over at ZenWave audio that has crazy good cables. I think he made a deal with the devil or somethin cause they sound gooood! 

I know, I need to sell my Job amp first. Those are the most musical cables that Rex and I have ever listened to.

[Occam]

Zak,

Many thanks for the excellent photos, much appreciated. The Carli X caps are polypropylene and film from a reputable Taiwanese company. It does seem specifically oriented towards passing the FCC test for conductive emissions. But it will attenuate noise coming in from the mains. It does use a higher than typical amount of Y capacitance, and it might be prone to ground loop issues if not in a balanced input component environment. I'm impressed with Crown's use of paralleled mkt caps in the output and zobel filters. Thanks again for the great pictures.

Dave - lets just agree to disagree regarding the primary benefits of [different forms of] balanced components.

Regards,
Paul

[a.wayne]

I know, I need to sell my Job amp first. Those are the most musical cables that Rex and I have ever listened to.

Expensive too, Im allergic to expensive cables .....

[a.wayne]

Paul ,

What is there to disagree with , the Crown is not a balanced line amplfier.....

[ZAKski288]

I'm waiting for Jackman's comparison of the two amps.  Also I did Bi-amp my speakers,both in stereo mode , one running up binding post the other on the lower binding post. No difference in sound. But I did not run them in bridged mono mode , not sure it will make much.  may have to try.  ZAK

[OzarkTom]

I'm waiting for Jackman's comparison of the two amps.  Also I did Bi-amp my speakers,both in stereo mode , one running up binding post the other on the lower binding post. No difference in sound. But I did not run them in bridged mono mode , not sure it will make much.  may have to try.  ZAK

Did you have the $7 cedar rings under the Crown? That makes quite an improvement on the depth. That was the first thing that I noticed when I tried it.

[Tomy2Tone]

I'm waiting for Jackman's comparison of the two amps.

As we speak there is a large gathering making its way below Jackmans balcony. Will we see the puffs of white smoke or will we have to wait. Anticipation builds as we await on this festive night. 

In due time. He can take as long as he needs to.