AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Tube-o-phile Circle => Topic started by: setamp on 29 Oct 2013, 02:04 pm
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Over the weekend, I cleaned my tube pins and sockets with Deoxit D. I then followed up with Deoxit ProGold, retensioned the contacts and reinserted the tubes. I sat down for a listening session this morning and it sounded horrid - thin, bright, grainy and harsh. My rig normally is very clear/clean and sits slightly on the warm and lush side of neutral. I can't stand to listen to it and want to reverse my error. Can I use alcohol to remove the Caig?
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Alcohol should remove the Pro Gold. Very surprising result no one else to my knowledge has experienced a bad sonic result. Try listening again after some playing time. Got me just makes no sense. Not doubting your outcome just hard to fathom.
charles
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It may be the tube pins was the source from the prob.
The sockets affected are from what kind/type??
Any image from web to ilustrated it??
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I had a similar issue when I unwisely used Silclear on my tubes and sockets. I was dismayed at how brittle and thin the sound became. I was able to pull the tubes and wipe off the majority of the Silclear and my sound reverted back ok. Won't make that mistake again.
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I've read of other people complaining that Pro-gold imparted an obnoxious sonic signature. I've used Deoxit alone to clean grungy tube pins with no deleterious sonic effects in my Dehavilland UltraVerve.
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I had a similar issue when I unwisely used Silclear on my tubes and sockets. I was dismayed at how brittle and thin the sound became. I was able to pull the tubes and wipe off the majority of the Silclear and my sound reverted back ok. Won't make that mistake again.
Not exactly an apples to apples comparison as Deoxit is just a simple contact cleaner. Silclear has metallic pieces suspended in paste to "enhance contact." Not a good idea in my opinion ; Silclear is just introducing another metal between your connectors. Why on earth would this a good thing, Mapleshade? Deoxit, on the other hand, is made to just clean dirty contacts by removing dirt and oxidation buildup. This is a good thing, in my experience. I once used Deoxit D100L on the speaker connectors to my McCormack DNA .5 Deluxe, which were apparently dirty. Cleaned them up. Reconnected everything. Immediate impression is that I had enhanced overall definition and accuracy across the board. The bass, prior, was definitely warm and wooly. After cleaning, this characteristic was gone and I was left with tighter more tuneful bass. This could be similar to what setamp is experiencing and I can understand liking the "dirty" contact sound. I suggest letting it run for awhile. Make sure there isn't any excess Deoxit on the contacts. Removing it with alcohol might not help you because I don't think the Deoxit is the problem. The "problem" is your shiny clean contacts. As a side note, pretty much any time I get a new (used) piece of gear, I clean the contacts. I believe this will help ensure I'm getting the sound the gear is supposed provide unclouded by dirty contacts. Anyone else do this?
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I have used Caig (not ProGold), Rat Shack, and CRC contact cleaners over the years and they always had a positive effect. I tried Mapleshade SilClear once on a set of speaker cables and it had no effect whatsoever so I chalked that one up to snake oil. I did clean it off because it collects all the dust bunnies within a 5 foot radius of whatever you apply it to.
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Hmm, glad you mentioned this. Maybe Deoxit without the ProGold would be the thing to do.
91% alcohol took tree sap off my daughters car no problem, should be fine for cleaning the pins......
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I don't think it is an issue of"shiny new pins". There is obviously something wrong as my system went from sounding great to sounding terrible. I believe deoxit gold is moret han just a cleaner.
My amp is an eddie current balancing act running sophia princess 300b's. The sockets allow for either a 300 b or px4 power tube. My 300b's were bot new earlier this year. Between the ecba and my lampizator l4g4 and audeze lcd-2.1 headphones I would not call any component bright or lean.
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91% alcohol took tree sap off my daughters car no problem, should be fine for cleaning the pins......
And thanks to you, WireNut, for this tip. I have tree sap on my BMW and hadn't found anything to remove it yet. I'll try this in an inconspicuous spot to see if works and does no damage to the finish.
setamp,
Hopefully you can get all the Caig product off and will let us know your results. I think rollo is right about using alcohol and I think the highest purity will be the best. 91% or higher if you can find it.
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I see. New tubes. I would've thought that any effect on cleaning the pins/sockets to be minimal if any on new tubes. But even from the factory, connectors can get crud on them even just from the manufacturing process. I mean, it's not like our gear is made in a sterile environment or something, so I can understand wanting to still clean even new tube pins.
I've never used Pro Gold, so you may be right. It may be like Silclear, in that it is creating a thin barrier between the metal contacts. I still suggest running the amps and see if they return back to normal after a week or so as awful as it may sound for most of the duration. If things don't work out, clean that Pro Gold off with alcohol as others have suggested.
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And thanks to you, WireNut, for this tip. I have tree sap on my BMW and hadn't found anything to remove it yet. I'll try this in an inconspicuous spot to see if works and does no damage to the finish.
setamp,
Hopefully you can get all the Caig product off and will let us know your results. I think rollo is right about using alcohol and I think the highest purity will be the best. 91% or higher if you can find it.
If it works, I would be sure to thoroughly wash and wax afterward. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that alcohol could mess up your clear coat. Be sure to use a very soft cloth, like microfiber.
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Yep, conducting materials do make a sonic difference. It can be a positive change or negative
depending upon the previous sonics of the part/component being modified.
Cheers.
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If it works, I would be sure to thoroughly wash and wax afterward. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that alcohol could mess up your clear coat. Be sure to use a very soft cloth, like microfiber.
That's precisely what I'm worried about. I have been considering taking it to a detail shop but funds are very tight at the moment.
Apologies for going off topic.
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And thanks to you, WireNut, for this tip. I have tree sap on my BMW and hadn't found anything to remove it yet. I'll try this in an inconspicuous spot to see if works and does no damage to the finish.
See the link for a detailed overview of how to get hardened tree sap off your bimmer. I've had excellent results using mineral spirits, as mentioned in the article. Whatever solvent you use, make sure the finish is otherwise squeaky clean so no grit can haze and scratch the finish as you work.
http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/repairs/detailing/tree_sap.htm
Apologies for the off topic chat here.
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And thanks to you, WireNut, for this tip. I have tree sap on my BMW and hadn't found anything to remove it yet. I'll try this in an inconspicuous spot to see if works and does no damage to the finish.
JakeJ,
My daughter had tree sap all over the hood and top of her beautiful maroon car I bought her new for graduation. I was not a happy dad when I saw the car, holy shit :(.
I was amazed how the 91% alcohol took the sap right off. I used terry cloth with the alcohol and then waxed the car afterwards. It looks brand new. Yeah, I was nervous about doing it so I tried it in a small spot first. Worked like a charm.
I told her, she is one lucky girl and to never park under that tree again. I also told her If it ever happens again she know what to do.
Yeah it will clean those tubes socket pins.
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http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/repairs/detailing/tree_sap.htm
JakeJ,
Holy shit, finger nail polish remover scared the crap out of me. It's way to strong IMO, It's like paint remover.
I thought about using mineral spirits, zyline, acetone, and I had them all available, but they are all way to strong IMO and are like paint remover. The alcohol worked like a dream, I was shocked how good it worked.
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I have 99% that I got from my local drug store. They did have to order it, but it came the next day. It's labeled as a solvent.
Wayner
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JakeJ,
Holy shit, finger nail polish remover scared the crap out of me. It's way to strong IMO, It's like paint remover.
I thought about using mineral spirits, zyline, acetone, and I had them all available, but they are all way to strong IMO and are like paint remover. The alcohol worked like a dream, I was shocked how good it worked.
The clearcoat finish that is on top of the paint is tough as nails. When the pro detailers at the Mercedes dealership I used to work for showed me how they used solvents like pure alcohol and mineral spirits to remove sap and tar I couldn't believe it myself. Many clearcoats are two part catalyzed films, so those are even more chemically resistant. The irony of the implementation of clearcoat technology is that while it has made the paint underneath more resistant to fading and damage, the clearcoat itself shows scratches, swirls, and hazing worse than a plain paint film.
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The clearcoat finish that is on top of the paint is tough as nails. When the pro detailers at the Mercedes dealership I used to work for showed me how they used solvents like pure alcohol and mineral spirits to remove sap and tar I couldn't believe it myself. Many clearcoats are two part catalyzed films, so those are even more chemically resistant. The irony of the implementation of clearcoat technology is that while it has made the paint underneath more resistant to fading and damage, the clearcoat itself shows scratches, swirls, and hazing worse than a plain paint film.
Getting really off topic, but good to know. I would still proceed with caution. What you're saying may not universally apply to other vehicles, whose paint and finish are perhaps less than the high standard a Mercedes or a BMW certainly have.
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Getting really off topic, but good to know. I would still proceed with caution. What you're saying may not universally apply to other vehicles, whose paint and finish are perhaps less than the high standard a Mercedes or a BMW certainly have.
Right.
What it does show is alcohol can be a good cleaner.
I'm wondering how the OP cleaned his tube sockets. I tried cleaning my sockets (6DJ8 type) with pipe cleaners but they wouldn't fit so I gave up and just cleaned the tube pins.
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Over the weekend, I cleaned my tube pins and sockets with Deoxit D. I then followed up with Deoxit ProGold, retensioned the contacts and reinserted the tubes. I sat down for a listening session this morning and it sounded horrid - thin, bright, grainy and harsh. My rig normally is very clear/clean and sits slightly on the warm and lush side of neutral. I can't stand to listen to it and want to reverse my error. Can I use alcohol to remove the Caig?
Sounds like "something else" happened to your amps... are your tube sockets tight (you said you retensioned them)... are your tube sockets "point to point" wired or have a circuit board? Check the bias?
I've never heard Caig DeOxit products causing detrimental sound... just the converse...
Years ago while attending a dinner honoring Harry Pearson, someone asked Harry, "What was the best "tweak" for a hi-fi system?"... he simply said to use "ProGold" periodically on all your connections for the best sound possible from your system...
My $0.02,
Pete
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Whew! The alcohol worked. I have my sound back again. I don't if I had too much progold or what but it sounded horrid. I cleaned the pins and sockets with denatured alcohol and removed a lot of what seemed like a light oil. I'm just happy it was an easy fix. Thanks for all of your help guys.
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Cool! Maybe I'll have to try alcohol, perhaps Moonshine, to clean my connectors......to give my system an Olde Tyme Southern draw.
Kidding aside, alcohol may be considered a cheap tweak I think. Perhaps next time I clean connectors I'll use alcohol as step 1 to remove crud, then apply a very thin coat of D100L (as a protective layer) as step 2.
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Cool! Maybe I'll have to try alcohol, perhaps Moonshine, to clean my connectors......to give my system an Olde Tyme Southern draw.
:rotflmao:
So if I use gin will I get the classic British sound? Maybe I should use Hai Karate so my system will have that extra kick!
Seriously, setamp, I'm very happy to hear you got back the sound you love from your system. That's why we're in this crazy hobby, the music and how it sounds to our ears.
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i just clean my tube pins. ok to clean the tube sockets but do not over do it. maybe once a yr. you are only going to loosen the contacts. if you use a enhancer such as pro gold only use it in very small amounts and i do mean small amounts. it can make things sound worse. a little goes a long way. cardas makes a very good contact enhancer. taking the tubes out and putting them in will clean the sockets also.
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From now on I will avoid cleaning my sockets like I avoid cleaning the garage.
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Yeah. Cleaning the tube sockets is probably overboard unless you have a vintage amp that sat collecting dust for years. As long as the tube pins are clean you aren't allowing dirt into the sockets (via dirty pins). I always keep my tubes in my tube gear to keep dust from getting to the sockets also. :thumb:
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It was just one of those things. I had the q-tips and deoxit out, the tubes were pulled, cleaned and drying and I thought "what could possibly go wrong"?
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I understand. I'm the same way. May as well do it all in one shot while you're at it, right?
I was just adding to rbwalt's post. Wasn't trying to make it sound like you're crazy for going above and beyond what is necessary. It's in our nature to do such things from time to time. It's the Tim the Tool Man in us. Or in some cases the Clark W Griswold in us "fixing" the newel post. :lol:
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As a note on Deoxit, I once used it on a dirty pot and afterwards the pots ceased working altogether. It's the only bad experience I ever had with Deoxit and I suspect the pot wiper was about to fall apart anyway. Thing about spraying cleaners into or around tube sockets and circuits, you are dealing with high impedance circuits and any leakage current from contamination such as cleaner residue can affect performance.
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I´ve always had positive results using Deoxit (for interconnects, speaker cables, chassis connectors, opamps). What it comes to old stained tube pins, Coca Cola is well-known polisher and available everywhere.
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I have used Deoxit on connectors before with good results. Same with Silclear. I find a nice upgrade in sound using Silclear on tube-pins (when applied in a VERY thin layer) but I have been warned not to try to coat the inside of the tube sockets with it or ANY conducting material. Like the suspended silver in Silclear, the suspended gold in Deoxit Gold is indeed a conductor and if it were to get below the socket and into your wiring you could actually cause some serious damage. Putting it on the pins has the effect of coating the inside of the sockets once the tubes are inserted anyway. Maybe ship your amp back to Craig and see if he can clean it? I had an ECBA for a long while and those new teflon sockets don't ever need cleaning, imo. Old tube pins, yes. I would think that you have introduced an excess of the Deoxit Gold into the sensitive connections below your sockets. Just my $.02. Hope that helps.
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Old thread,
I also tried using Pro gold. I wanted more bass and everything else in my "loaner" system was startling SO Real . I was so close to audio nirvana and without mega buck gear. All my digital was so close to ,,,,not JUST OK good ...but EXCELLENT analog.
So I figured better conductivity, more current , better bass. Let's pro gold everything .
I cleaned my sockets and pins with deoxit D , then followed by putting deoxit gold on the pins.
Reassembled.
My startlingly convincing STATE OF THE ART vocals , now FELL to just at the edge of the beginning of high fidelity almost as low as mid-fi. My bass was better (careful for what you wish for) my sound stage collapsed and almost spounds mono. My speakers which had disappeared now were identifiable .
I tried repositioning my speakers to compensate for the tonal shift, but frankly the detail was gone. That fine detail when a singer opens and closes their mouth at the beginning and end of the note, the subtle vibrato,,,,,smeared...arrrrgggh.
I think for many people , deoxit gold works very well, but when you get this close to reproducing reality, to making a "time machine" that transports you to the original venue at that moment in time, sometimes something simple like changing a power cable or interconnect can ruin it all. Well I'll add deoxit gold to this list.
Now how to get ALL OF THAT out of my sockets? I tried alcohol fuel, (this brought back 75% of the magic) then as there was so much oil residue from the deoxit gold I used starting fluid. But that isn't just ether it also has a lubricant and anti corrosion additives, but it was th only way to get the oily deoxit stuff gone.
Worse still I blasted my input level potentiometers on the amp with deoxit gold , So I'll have to clean that out too,
I'm thinking just tons of 99% alcohol and then compressed air, or perhaps lighter fluid , and then alcohol and then compressed air , let the amp sit in the sun inside for a day or so so I don't have a instant bonfire.
I remember the old CRC that was great stuff.
Any suggestions are more than appreciated.
The system , Well thought I would sell it, (since i have better stuff) and now, I'm enjoying it so much I'm not so sure I want to have it gone, amazing since the signal cabling is meager as well as the signal should be full of tons of jitter (iPad + Apple TV gen 3 over shudder Verizon LTE 4G ) as this is simple compared to my mega system. It's amazing with all the shortcomings that it sounds so convincingly real , and I tune some of the best systems for very well know audiophiles with not just "expensive" but truly musical sounding systems.
Here's what it is ....I would never believe this to sound so good.
MIT Z Duplex outlet $299
Wells power conditioner (Shunyata AC power cable) $???
Apple iPad Air 2 128 GB off Craig's list using Verizon 4G LTE and personal hotspot over wifi to Apple TV!
Tidal hi-fi $21 month
Apple TV gen 3 rmodel 1469 rev. A (standard power cable) $69
Some old monster cable toslink cable $25
Aqua Acoustics La VOCE DAC (factory power cable ) $2500
NORDOST red dawn RCA (blue heaven is a little mellower) $400
Esoteric Audio Research E.A.R. 890 stock signal tubes but with JJ6550 power tubes $8300 (DH labs red wave cable) $400
Nordost White Lightning speaker cable $300
Chapman T-7 with custom duelund caps on the midrange in rounded diffraction cabinets. $12,995
Exact Same speaker pair as seen here:
https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2014/06/12/newport-2014-chapman-audio-systems-meets-vac-results-in-glory/
And yet with a $2500 DAC as opposed to that $24,000 MSB stack
With a 70 watt amp WITH CHEAP ($38 per tube JJ6550 ) EASY TO FIND CURRENTLY PRODUCED TUBES as opposed to the VAC PHI 200 $10,000
The Nordost is their bottom of the line cable
The Nordost red dawn is second from the bottom
And the fact that it sounds believable with Tidal which is EVER SO SLIGHTLY less revealing than CD (yes I know it's a Redbook file )
No computer
No server, just an old iPad
Cheap optical cable
And it sounds better than any of the systems I have done at the shows , even ones with nearly $80k in cable , expensive monobloc amplifiers running unobtainable tubes that are modified. And I ALWAYS get great sound and great reviews at Audio shows.
It's just crazy synergy. No other explanation. Personally I like the Chapman T-8 and T-9mkII better as speakers, but in this system it is perfect synergy and I think the T-7 is unbeatable in this system.
I don't know even need a preamp as the volume controls on the amp are perfectly usable . Just for fun I tossed a EAR 912 preamp in the chain ( $12k ), and it didn't need it. And that's a MARVELOUS PRE-Amp probably my favorite audio component , and I felt it did not need it, and almost ANY system improves with a 912.
And now.....
I have to clean those contacts of that residual deoxit to bring it back to that time machine.
I'm sure the deoxit helps, to clean oxidation ...I needed to do it, but now I just need to get the deoxit off.
Probably back to deoxit D after the alcohol since that sounded VERY good. Just didn't like the deoxit gold and I'm betting the deoxit d won't dissolve deoxit gold. So that's why I am thinking lighter fluid with an alcohol rinse . And standard deoxit d for the potentiometers.
Compared to my mega systems, this is so easy. The amp is self biasing (major headache gone) , the signal tubes last $10,000 hours. The power tubes are cheap. No tubes in the DAC. THE SPEAKERS are indestructible and have easy to find reasonable cost drivers that will be abpvailable for decades in case you have aggressive cats or kids with whiffle bats.
If only I had this system in high school :lol:
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Over the weekend, I cleaned my tube pins and sockets with Deoxit D. I then followed up with Deoxit ProGold, retensioned the contacts and reinserted the tubes. I sat down for a listening session this morning and it sounded horrid - thin, bright, grainy and harsh. My rig normally is very clear/clean and sits slightly on the warm and lush side of neutral. I can't stand to listen to it and want to reverse my error. Can I use alcohol to remove the Caig?
Which ProGold formula did you use, the 100% liquid or the 5% spray?
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Congratulations! You have stumbled accross "system synergy" with this grouping of equipment. Sell everything else and enjoy!
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Isn't the general rule with Caig products to use as little as possible? One of the old descriptions sounded as if there was still an observable amount on the metal.
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Deoxit and Caig are oiled solitions?
If so it will attract dust.
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I can relate with trying Deoxit Gold.
It was several years ago, but one of the few bad experiences I've had was treating my cables with it. I don't recall now the particulars, but I was very disapointed with my system until I removed it.
I've only used regular Deoxit (the red stuff) since, with generally excellent results.
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Apart from a comment above from philloamps I don't think anyone has made the point that if you use something like pro-gold or any other fluid/oil containing conductive metal fragments, there's a very high risk that that this substance will travel across surfaces to create electrical paths where you don't want them. This is always going to be a problem where tubes are involved because of the proximity of the pins/sockets. The problem will also be accentuated by heat, which is inevitably present in tube bases.
Caig and others recommend using this stuff sparingly for a reason and really, if you clean your pins and bases properly it shouldn't be necessary to use conductive paste as well.
Some of the oxides you'll find on pins and sockets are going to be soluble in plain water though it would have to be dried off afterwards. Alcohol has the advantage of evaporating very quickly so it's not going to cause any residue problems. I suspect it's not going to dissolve oxides of copper or zinc either :).
At the other end of the scale, using a sealant that's also an insulant can have the opposite effect and hinder conductivity where you want it.