AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Single Driver, Wide-Bandwidth Speakers => Topic started by: Paolo Foggiato on 19 Jan 2023, 05:46 pm
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If you are so lucky to find a good condition couple of Cabasse Dinghy 221 you’ll have the chance to take off from the original poor cabinet and reuse one of the best large bande drivers you’d meet in your life.
The 221 was a very cheap French speakers in the 70’s.
I bought 2 pairs of its drivers on EBay at a very cheap price. You won’t believe me if I tell you that the drivers frame is in plastic (you read well: plastic) the cone is in paper and the suspension is in paper at the same.
The materials cannot be cheaper.
The sound is astonishing!!!
Fast, detailed with a mid and high cristal and extremely transparent.
The bass is light but you cannot imagine what happened when I put two drivers (one in the front and one in the rear of the speakers in a TQWT cabinet.
The bass came out clear and deep, fast and detailed as much as the rest of the range.
You just have to close the speakers in order to cross the drivers direction 50 cm in front of your nose.
Of course you cannot have the same classy sound of a Fostex or a Lowther but with just some coins you are able to enjoy an incredible performance.
the efficiency is very high (95 dB declared) so even a very low powered ampli is enough to drive them at the best (I use a 8 watts single ended Audio Note Oto)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=248938)
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I will move this topic to the Single Driver Circle.
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Well, this FR driver looks a great speaker with the right materials.
These materials you mentioned are the best to the purpose of sound quality.
The best sound material for cones are paper, not plastics or aluminum, I have the Beyma 5MP60/N and his polypropylene cone delivery a plastic sound in many tracks and an alu cone will delivery a neutral sound at best.
Many great FR drivers use paper VC former that are light and delivery a very musical sound, but not heat resistant as the usual Kapton VC used in pro-audio woofers.
The best material for basket are brass, second Alu, after some plastics frames as used by MarkAudio.
Old-fashioned FR drivers use suspension in paper, accordion, fabric etc.
The Visaton B200 is a good example:
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/fullrange-speaker-visaton-b-200-6-ohm-8-74-inch.html
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Hallo boys !
This evening I’ve fitted my lab cabinet to the Tang Band W8-1772 to get a correct idea about its sound.
I have to say that I’m really satisfied. I’ve left the speaker (one only) for some ours with a cd under repeat.
Right after I took a brief audition with some of my references both in cd and, mainly, in vinyl.
The voice is very nice both in women and men. I’ve felt a “comfortable” sound but it was important to hold the eyes a little bit lower the driver center in order to avoid the inevitable “papersound effect” of the large band drivers.
I have to say that , due to the not dedicated box” the mid to bass frequencies weren’t too much equilibrate.
I’m sure that the not tuned back horn loading caused this inconvenience.
By the way I have to say that the first audition made me very happy about the potential of these drivers.
In the next weeks I’ll have to take the decision about the cabinet I’ll build up.
There are mainly two types that I’m very curious to test. One is a TQWT and another one is a TLML.
The first one is a well known solution that I’ve already used with the Cabasse. The second have a great sponsor (Bob Brines) but, to be honest, till now I do not understand the working principles so I’d cannot tune it if I’d meet some problems.
I’ll keep you updated.
Paolo
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If the Tangbang have a low Qts you could use the new frugalhorn from Planet10 for big drivers, it have a new name.
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They are very nice to look at.
Unluckily I have no much space as you can see and, moreover, there is “mein Fuhrer” at home that I don’t think will accept something like these…
All we male play the same game, my friend !
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Bob Brines built my FTA-2000 floor standing single driver transmission lines (TL) 18 years ago, that I'm still using but my understanding is that Bob has retired from building speakers. TL's are complex to design, Martin King developed a MathCad application (that Bob used) that finally took TL out of the trial and error stage. But TL's are relatively big but superior to most other speaker design types. My TL's use Fostex F200a drivers, very nice but no longer available, beefier and smoother compared to your Tang Bands.
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Given the continued searching for Bob’s ML-2000, Scott designed a similar box as replacement — Bonnyville.
Well done plastic baskets are very good and better than many cast Al baskets.
Do you have pictures of the driver itself?
dave
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Hi Dave,
I waiting the new frugalhorn for large drivers, I forget the new name.
Do you know how is this project ?
It will fit 10 " drivers?
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Joan,
Fits 8” drivers + the 6.5” MA.
Available now.
dave
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Oh sorry it dont fit the 10'' drivers.
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If you are so lucky to find a good condition couple of Cabasse Dinghy 221 you’ll have the chance to take off from the original poor cabinet and reuse one of the best large bande drivers you’d meet in your life.
The 221 was a very cheap French speakers in the 70’s.
I bought 2 pairs of its drivers on EBay at a very cheap price. You won’t believe me if I tell you that the drivers frame is in plastic (you read well: plastic) the cone is in paper and the suspension is in paper at the same.
The materials cannot be cheaper.
The sound is astonishing!!!
Fast, detailed with a mid and high cristal and extremely transparent.
The bass is light but you cannot imagine what happened when I put two drivers (one in the front and one in the rear of the speakers in a TQWT cabinet.
The bass came out clear and deep, fast and detailed as much as the rest of the range.
You just have to close the speakers in order to cross the drivers direction 50 cm in front of your nose.
Of course you cannot have the same classy sound of a Fostex or a Lowther but with just some coins you are able to enjoy an incredible performance.
the efficiency is very high (95 dB declared) so even a very low powered ampli is enough to drive them at the best (I use a 8 watts single ended Audio Note Oto)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=248938)
some audax driver frames are plastic.
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In these last weeks I’ve tried to develop a good case for my TB 1772.
Starting from my lab cabinet I’ve checked what happened changing the solutions: reflex, TQWT, horn, and so on.
With my total disappointment I felt that the differences were just minimal. Too much for thinking to proceed on…
I cannot understand why the bass frequencies are so light and, whey they are just in line with expectations it’s clear to feel a large hole between the med/bass and the bass frequencies.
I’m going to loose my enthusiasm on this project.
I have much more satisfaction from the Cabasse old speakers. When I chandelier something, something else happens.
Good or bad isn’t important but a feedback can drive you to the correct way.
Blank or flat or inexisting feedbacks take off the neddle from your compass.
Any suggestions
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You must use a filter to compensate for "baffle step diffraction," which causes bass frequencies to roll off faster than higher frequencies. Many DIY noobs neglect this necessary part of speaker design.
The Bob Brines plans for 1772 box include schematic for passive baffle step correction filter.
Read more about baffle step correction.
https://trueaudio.com/st_diff1.htm
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Technical/Baffle-Step-Correction-Circuit-Calculator/
https://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/bafflestep/intro-bds.html
https://sound-au.com/bafflestep.htm
http://www.quarter-wave.com/General/BSC_Sizing.pdf
Another way to eliminate baffle step is to use a driver of similar size and sensitivity (usually same driver as front) on the rear of the box, aka bipolar speaker. This cancels baffle step diffraction.
Another way to eliminate baffle diffraction is to eliminate the baffle edge (infinite baffle) aka in-wall speaker. In-wall speakers have no baffle step correction filters so they sound weak bass away from the wall, just as a box speaker with baffle step correction sounds like too much bass when placed too close to a wall.
EDIT: When I built Brines 1772 speaker (with his baffle step filter) I found the bass to be well balanced and musical considering it's a single driver speaker. The only problem I had with the speaker was the beaming of the high frequencies.
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The W8-1772 has a rising response, you are taming that, not really adding baffle step.
dave
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Thank you guys !
I don't have enough experience to do too many useful experiments, so I'll try to decide following your suggestions.
The Brines project that I own today thanks to an enthusiast whom I thank very much.
It's not easy to make but it's manageable for me.
I'll just have to decide whether to build them or choose the solution of buying a pair of speakers made by a well-known Italian professional with the Tang Band W8-1808 (Pic attached)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249750)
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I definitely closed the Tang Band 1772 project… too much troubles.
I’ve sold them and my new question is :
can someone suggest a real good sounding project?
I’m not skilled and I take confidence that someone could help me in making the correct choice
…. May be the classic Fostex design for the FE 108 ?
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I hate the idea of an equalization circuit
I’ve take the way of the large band speakers to avoid the xover…
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can someone suggest a real good sounding project?
What kind of budget, room, kit?
Perhaps a Frugel-Horn? Or a Pensil?
…. May be the classic Fostex design for the FE 108 ?
Not a good choice. FE108e∑ is a glorious driver, with a seductive midrange. Not all that acuarate. Now discontinued.
dave
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The room is about 4 meters x 4 meters
The budget is reasonably around 200 euros
No problem for difficult cabinet. I like towers (for example the one in the pic that uses Fostex 103)
But I’m wide open to any good idea!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=249878)
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200 euros just for the drivers of course…
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200 euros just for the drivers of course
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Ah, the BD-Pipe. An early ML-Voigt, each with a pair of Radio Shack 40-1197 (aka FE103) started me out on the full-range single driver journey. $40 for the drivers.
Since these days the numbe of successful designs and FR drivers you can put into them has exploded. Probably at least a 100-fold.
Bert’s design was a good guess, but modern design tools allow for much better, optimized quarter-wave designs (aks TLs in the broadest sense).
FE108e∑ was mentioned, here an ML-Voigt for it that drags a lot of bass out of a driver that it is hard to do so with.
(https://wodendesign.com/planset/Lancet-MLVH-300418.png)
Scott & I have churned out 100s of designs, the above just one.
dave
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VERY, very , very interesting Dave.
So you think it could fit a FE108 ?
Have you a project complete with the measurements?
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So you think it could fit a FE108 ?
Have you a project complete with the measurements?
It was specifically designed for FE108e∑ & FF105wk. It was a comminssion for a cliet in ON, and as usual gets moved into the paid plansets. Currently runs to 8 sheets, 18mm and ¾” plans so far (haven’t done a cut sheet for that last). As more copies are distributed it will grow, with things like that cut-sheet, 15mm plans, and as much as we can do to make your project successful.
(https://wodendesign.com/planset/Lancet-title.png)
There is also a larger one for FF165wk.
Keep in mind that the FE108e∑ is not that neutral but it sounds lovely. The FF105wk is more neutral but has a few small issues that can be minimized with a few fairly eay teaks. Don’t bother listening to them until you have a 100 hrs or so of low-level changing signal (music is good, ie FM station).
email me for more info.
dave
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I hate the idea of an equalization circuit
+1.
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I’ve take the way of the large band speakers to avoid the xover…
There is various Full Range drivers that dont need a correction electric circuit as Lii Audio F15 or F18, the F18 dont need a sub also, I like simple projects as these below>
https://www.lii-audio.com/product/one-pair-18-inch-full-range-speakers-superb-scale-soundstage-with-new-imaging-f-18/
Eminence Alpha15A + 4.7mH + Visaton B200:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=182037)
Decware OB with the Lii Audio F15 driver:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=205527)
If one have a woodworker is possible try the Lii Audio F15($399/Pair) 97dB/8Ω and benign impedance curve suited to OB or Bass Reflex box or the F18($520/pair), no Crossover, no Tweeter beaming, no Phase rotation, no driver sensitivity loss, no Harmonics loss, no Retail price.
http://www.glowinthedarkaudio.com/lii-audio-f18.html