AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Daedalus Audio => Topic started by: audiotom on 13 May 2019, 05:43 am
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Would like to get some feedback
I have an opportunity to expand my audio room size drastically by knocking down a wall and merging two rooms
my audio room is 27 ft x 14.5 ft ( With a few cutouts on the couch side - kitchen cabinet and small closet for jackets. I like having no side wall reflections
I have the Ulysses V2 - love them and my system is optimized
The slightly offset tweeter angles and dispursion really enhanced and negate the limitations of the room size.
I am looking at the Apollo or Apollo 11 and really want to hear everything to it's maximum extent.
my Ulysses speakers are on the 27 x 14.5 ft long wall due to room functionality.
I have my main system there - near field 9 ft distance - listening one foot from the back wall. I have it nicely treated with Real Traps and GIK. It sounds great at my listening spot but the room can overload with volume particularly on cd and I am not getting the perfect integration of drivers nor widest sweet spot.
i would like to sit slightly further back with plenty of space behind me, have clear sound in a larger space and occasionally have audiophile friends over and sit on chairs behind the main listening spot
my second room works really well for home theatre 18x19 with a 10 ft opening into the kitchen.
I am contemplating taking one wall out between the rooms and making a great room 18 x 30 x 8 tall for my main system and a side 12 wide by 9 deep nook for a tv and the home theatre (basically caniibalizing the HT setup.
i would have to integrate things, rework dedicated lines, perhaps remove a fireplace, it's not the supporting wall but I would put in a beam support, go seamless floor between rooms - most likely wood - the existing setup is tile in one room - carpet in the other.
thoughts? Don’t do it?
probably lowers the resale value on my house but so what?
Can always put the wall back in
i should note I am a single father - kids graduated college/gone/empty nester, have a great contractor 2 doors down and always have my speakers 3+ feet out into the room
i could do some testing - swap my main system (or leftover gear) in the 18x19 room to see if a few extra foot in depth makes a difference - the bigger room opens up into a 10 ft wide kitchen
Thanks
Tom
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Bigger rooms are almost always better, but shape is more important. Recommend reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction", 3rd edition.
The Daelalus speakers are made for large rooms. Multiple tweeter/midrange driver designs like Ulysses or Apollo 11 mandates a far-field setup for good driver coherence (9 feet is recognized as midfield). Your current room is nearly a 1:2 proportions - very bad for bass echo, but square would be worse (depending on alcove/kitchen arrangement you might get just that - please provide a sketch). How tall is the ceiling? For a room this size 11 - 12 foot would be ideal. Sitting farther from back wall would also be helpful as walls reinforce bass.
Controlled directivity is a speaker design concept gaining acceptance that minimizes side wall interaction of mid/high frequencies, currently used by JBL, Amphion, Buchardt, Kii, and Dutch & Dutch. Again read "Sound Reproduction". In it Toole recommends multiple carefully dispersed subs.
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This would be a good one to talk through with Lou. Sometimes bigger rooms lead to bigger problems. FWIW I am using the Apollo's in a 13 X 17 X 8 room, speakers on the long wall, listening position 9' from baffles with the chair up against the opposite wall. The back of the speakers are 20" off the back wall. If I had a bigger room I would love to pull the Apollo's out so there were several feet behind them--I heard my friends Ulysses in a large room pulled way out into the space and they created an AMAZING soundfield--so much deeper and more three dimensional than I am able to get in my space. That said, I've got a very even response in my room and no reflection issues to deal with since I am virtually nearfield. Tradeoffs. In your case it sounds like a lot of work and expense that may not yield what you are after or just introduce a new set of issues that you don't have with your current set up. Best of luck!
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The Ulysses and others are great at 9ft back but are incredible at 11, 12 and more. Shows its versatility. And of course getting that back wall farther away from you will yield greater results, too.
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Its not about your case, but yet about rooms:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=107352.msg1183456#msg1183456
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Thanks guys
I Ordered Floyd Tooles book and read a fdw other suggestions
Jason - I agree on the 11+ feet range
We took my Ulyssess to a friends where we could sit eleven feet back in an eighteen ft deep room
They open up nicely
I came across a very nice article in this month’s Absolute Sound by Robert Harley where he recently built a new listening room. He goes extensively into construction material options, optimum room dimensions and other important topics. His book is a very useful reference.
https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Guide-High-End-Audio/dp/0978649311
In The Absolute Sound article Harley mentioned a particularly interesting room node software excel spreadsheet you can download from John H Brandt, a studio design expert.
https://www.jhbrandt.net
you can download the spreadsheet here and there are other useful resources as well
Interested to near Lou s take
https://www.jhbrandt.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Room-Mode-Calculator-Imperial.xlsm
This is a room node simulator
You plug in your room dimensions in inches – hit a few key strokes listed in orange and it calculates the node overlaps between the length width and height and other travel paths created in that size room.
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Bigger rooms are almost always better, but shape is more important. Recommend reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction", 3rd edition.
The Daelalus speakers are made for large rooms. Multiple tweeter/midrange driver designs like Ulysses or Apollo 11 mandates a far-field setup for good driver coherence (9 feet is recognized as midfield). Your current room is nearly a 1:2 proportions - very bad for bass echo, but square would be worse (depending on alcove/kitchen arrangement you might get just that - please provide a sketch). How tall is the ceiling? For a room this size 11 - 12 foot would be ideal. Sitting farther from back wall would also be helpful as walls reinforce bass.
Controlled directivity is a speaker design concept gaining acceptance that minimizes side wall interaction of mid/high frequencies, currently used by JBL, Amphion, Buchardt, Kii, and Dutch & Dutch. Again read "Sound Reproduction". In it Toole recommends multiple carefully dispersed subs.
Thanks for all the ideas
Unfortunately the ceiling is 8 ft.
I have treated the room with Real trap mondo bass traps
A panel that straddles a corner nicely and is affective in lowering low frequency room resonances
The HT could utilize the nook in the far back corner of the space and extended behind the main system couch - but it would require in-ceiling rear speakers
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If it were me, I'd consult a reputable interior design specialist. In other words, I wouldn't compromise the home's value to achieve a better listening position. An interior design consultation may yield a few approaches you hadn't thought of. Approaches that could even add value (or at least maintain value) plus satisfy your audio needs.
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IME, I found the taller the ceiling the better the sound. That is more important than a very large room. My dream room would be 20x25 with a 20-30 foot ceiling. I have experienced one with a 30 foot ceiling. Incredible.
Unfortunately, raising the ceiling is usually impossible.
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If it were me, I'd consult a reputable interior design specialist. In other words, I wouldn't compromise the home's value to achieve a better listening position. An interior design consultation may yield a few approaches you hadn't thought of. Approaches that could even add value (or at least maintain value) plus satisfy your audio needs.
Plus 1+
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If it were me, I'd consult a reputable interior design specialist. In other words, I wouldn't compromise the home's value to achieve a better listening position. An interior design consultation may yield a few approaches you hadn't thought of. Approaches that could even add value (or at least maintain value) plus satisfy your audio needs.
The term "reputable interior design specialist" is nearly an oxymoron. We hired one when we built 15 years ago and fired her. She had one good idea, that with an open floor plan (in our case semi-open) the kitchen should be the basis for materials/colors as it has more fixed materials. But she had no idea of acoustics, spatial issues, or when she was stepping the owner's toes (after all she wasn't paying the bills or going to live there). I'd worked with architects and interior designers for 20 years by then, even car pooled with one for the better part of a year, and most interior designers are glorified furniture/flooring/accessories sales people.
Good idea, but I'd contact a good realtor instead. A friend at work's wife sold real-estate and we lived in a town with a very high population of engineers. More than once she shared her frustration about engineers having inventive, but quirky home improvement ideas that killed resale value.
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thanks for all the insight guys
My daughter has a great room in a recently built house - but it's 10 ft ceilings and things open up into a modern open kitchen floor plan.
Older homes can't pull that off so well.
I am stuck with 8 ft ceilings which might make a larger room look more "cave" ish. and constrain the sound further back.
My friend has a split level where he renovated the downstairs - knocking out a bedroom and created a 30 x 18+ space. His restriction was a 7' ceiling - but it sounds great in there and opens up onto a lovely backyard and pool. Incidently his house is where we played the Ulysses and they sounded wonderful with the larger depth.
My neighbor and friend is a contractor and has done all my home remodeling.
One option is to add a nice finished central beam and wall frame to cover the room transition which also would allow you to quickly and effectively put a wall back up later.
just a thought
thanks
TOm
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The term "reputable interior design specialist" is nearly an oxymoron. We hired one when we built 15 years ago and fired her. She had one good idea, that with an open floor plan (in our case semi-open) the kitchen should be the basis for materials/colors as it has more fixed materials. But she had no idea of acoustics, spatial issues, or when she was stepping the owner's toes (after all she wasn't paying the bills or going to live there). I'd worked with architects and interior designers for 20 years by then, even car pooled with one for the better part of a year, and most interior designers are glorified furniture/flooring/accessories sales people.
Good idea, but I'd contact a good realtor instead. A friend at work's wife sold real-estate and we lived in a town with a very high population of engineers. More than once she shared her frustration about engineers having inventive, but quirky home improvement ideas that killed resale value.
+1. I could suggest the OP contact his wife who certainly is a reputable interior design specialist, if you understand me.
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there is no wife, girlfriend, etc and I have been told I have good taste and an eye in furnishings, art etc
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only constraint is the house - not a load bearing wall
and having to rerun my dedicated lines including a 220 lead
flooring options - transition seam for now or redo all the flooring
carpet up front / tile where main part would be
go to a rug
or all wood throughout and a rug
Thanks
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The best approach from an aesthetic standpoint would be wood or wood look tile throughout....no transition seams. Everything just flows better visually. Of course an area rug will have to be added in the listening area.
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wood was exactly what I was thinking
break out the tile at the kitchen transition
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Sorry to take so long to chime in...
The larger space sounds like a great idea. While a higher ceiling is good it is not necessary, as far as the "cave like feel", so long as you have windows etc it is not likely to be an issue. The 18X 30 is a great size.
With the large room the floor/ceiling materials make a difference. I would stay away from plaster on the ceiling and not use tile on the floor. Wood floors with good rugs would be best. btw you mention a beam and that may help with the ceiling depending on location.
Overall it sounds like a great plan and the Apollo11 would be my choice for speaker in there.
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Thanks Lou
Plenty of light from the front room and kitchen.
I was looking at wood for the floor.
The ceiling is drywall
Ferndale do we have lift off?
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Thanks Lou
Plenty of light from the front room and kitchen.
I was looking at wood for the floor.
The ceiling is drywall
Ferndale do we have lift off?
Yep! I think this settles the question of Apollo vs Apollo11.
I'll be in part time for the next week as it is boat haulout time! Let's talk about wood grain!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194562)
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btw, here are a couple of pics of my own home setup.
For Christmas I designed and built this mobile TV cabinet. We usually keep it out of the way, and then roll it out for watching movies using a pair of Athena's. (I cycle in whatever is an extra at the shop and have used several models here). I plan on upping the grade on the amps soon, maybe an LTA?
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194563)
this is where it usually sits on the side wall with the cover.
and here is in position for an Avengers 3D
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194564)
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Bigger rooms are almost always better, but shape is more important. Recommend reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction", 3rd edition.
The Daelalus speakers are made for large rooms. Multiple tweeter/midrange driver designs like Ulysses or Apollo 11 mandates a far-field setup for good driver coherence (9 feet is recognized as midfield). Your current room is nearly a 1:2 proportions - very bad for bass echo, but square would be worse (depending on alcove/kitchen arrangement you might get just that - please provide a sketch). How tall is the ceiling? For a room this size 11 - 12 foot would be ideal. Sitting farther from back wall would also be helpful as walls reinforce bass.
Controlled directivity is a speaker design concept gaining acceptance that minimizes side wall interaction of mid/high frequencies, currently used by JBL, Amphion, Buchardt, Kii, and Dutch & Dutch. Again read "Sound Reproduction". In it Toole recommends multiple carefully dispersed subs.
The book arrived
Is there a particular set of chapters you would recommend reading first?
oops - Chapters 5, 7 and 8 most relevant
Jim Smith's get better sound had a few setup nuggets as well
thanks
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I decided in the short term to knock out a closet making a 9' wide space width near my front door extend to 12.5 ft wide
now speakers on the short wall looks to be a viable option
the closet has been torn down - touch up work on the walls finishing tomorrow
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195267)
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short wall setup
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195269)
I really welcome your insights
thanks
Tom
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I like the short wall setup because it offers a lot more versatility for speaker placement and seating position.
OP -- consider a sliding door in front of the kitchen.
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Yep! I think this settles the question of Apollo vs Apollo11.
I'll be in part time for the next week as it is boat haulout time! Let's talk about wood grain!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=194562)
And how do you fit a pair of your speakers inside that boat, Lou? :scratch:
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I like the short wall setup because it offers a lot more versatility for speaker placement and seating position.
OP -- consider a sliding door in front of the kitchen.
interesting
maybe a pocket door or sliding on a rail on the audio room side?
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maybe a pocket door or sliding on a rail on the audio room side?
The rail door is very cool and in vogue right now. They're not that expensive if you're able to hang the rail and door(s) yourself.
The reason I'm suggesting this is because my room opens to the kitchen, and for many years, I had no door there, so the sound "leaked" into the kitchen. Once I closed it off with a door, the imaging was a bit better.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195267)
This option seems better to me as the cables route are short,
however the rack is located in the mid os the speakers,
the recommended would be closer to the wall.
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I made a mod below for shorter cable route:
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=195290)
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I, too, like the short wall setup. and love the rail door or pocket door idea! We have two pocket doors in our 1959 mid-century home. There are many good DIY rail door plans out there. A pocket door will cost more but will not take away inches from the side, for symmetry.
BTW, is this all for my old pair of Ulysses? I think I remember reading that you have others. ??
Jason
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Hi Jason!!!
The very Ulysses!
Just with Lou's V2 upgrade when I bought them from you and shipped westward.
They love everything I have thrown at them and have really brought out the engaging aspect of the music.
I can't wait to set them back in the room more so the drivers can fully integrate.
Then again I am further refining the room for a possible Apollo upgrade
Full Range - we looked at that setup with the rack on the speakers wall but the speakers have to be too far out in the room and rack 2 (which has the cd and tuner on it) won't fit on that wall
I have a daisy chained set of wire right now
but would be looking at a set of 16 foot and 20ft cables for two parallel systems into a high end switch box
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And how do you fit a pair of your speakers inside that boat, Lou? :scratch:
On the boat I have a Uke and guitar, no need for speakers :thumb:
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I, too, like the short wall setup. and love the rail door or pocket door idea! We have two pocket doors in our 1959 mid-century home. There are many good DIY rail door plans out there. A pocket door will cost more but will not take away inches from the side, for symmetry.
BTW, is this all for my old pair of Ulysses? I think I remember reading that you have others. ??
Jason
The sliding door is a great idea! If you do pocket doors, I would be very careful about the wall construction. Usually for pocket doors the wall is very flimsy and resonant. In that location it could really mess with your mid bass etc.
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Hi Jason!!!
The very Ulysses!
Just with Lou's V2 upgrade when I bought them from you and shipped westward.
They love everything I have thrown at them and have really brought out the engaging aspect of the music.
I can't wait to set them back in the room more so the drivers can fully integrate.
Then again I am further refining the room for a possible Apollo upgrade
Great to hear Tom! They were “V2” when I had them, too. Well a version of V2, as we all know Lous wonderful upgrade path has been an evolution, with real and tangible results every time... The Argos ended up working better for my needs. So happy those U’s are all upgraded and so appreciated.
Jason
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fighting some tonal balance issues with the short wall
but I will get there
removed room treatments (thanks for the suggestion Lou)
and working on removing cabinets, records, etc
converging