AudioCircle

Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: brother love on 26 Mar 2018, 06:15 pm

Title: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: brother love on 26 Mar 2018, 06:15 pm
My GR Research N3 transmission line speakers are installed on wood floor with standard block perimeter foundation/ wood floor joists/ plywood sub-flooring. I added DIY plinths to get tweeters to ear level from my nearfield chair listening position.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177956)

Conventional wisdom is that I should decouple/ isolate these ~ 70# speakers from live floor conditions vs. my current spike arrangement.

Since my last 4 speaker purchases have been Danny's products (X-LS monitors, sealed servo sub, N2x's, N3's), I thought I would get informed info from fellow GR Research owners. What have you used that works for you? (brownie points given for economical/ DIY since I am a cheap bastard  :lol:).

In the process of researching previous AC threads, IsoAcoustic stands, etc.. I came across this excellent article by Ethan Winer: Testing Loudspeaker Isolation Products. Quite enlightening!

http://ethanwiner.com/speaker_isolation.htm
 
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: gab on 26 Mar 2018, 06:22 pm
I like this Ethan Winer primer  :thumb:

http://exposed.ethanwiner.com/ate.htm
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Roninaudio on 26 Mar 2018, 06:31 pm
Good article....(From OP)
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Speedskater on 26 Mar 2018, 06:38 pm
Now that some cell-phones have accelerometers, an audiophile can now measure the effectiveness of different isolation devices. 
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Wind Chaser on 26 Mar 2018, 07:03 pm
Smart - few people give a second thought, much less any consideration to the height of their speakers,
especially if they are floor standers.  :duh:

I designed my own risers and built them to spec. In addition to providing the right amount of "lift" they
also act as isolation platforms. The interior of each platform contains three layers of foam of varying
densities so none of the wood (MDF) actually touches the ground.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177960)

Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: DaveC113 on 26 Mar 2018, 07:04 pm
I get great results from IsoAcoustic stands.

Results do depend on the floor and home construction for sure, but for me, I got a subwoofer stand to try out years ago. I crank up my system, the result was subjectively cleaner bass, but also much less resonance throughout my home. All the things that normally rattle around stopped or were reduced in amplitude by a large amount. My home was "singing along" with the music a lot less. Picture frames, lighting enclosures, windows, etc. all vibrate less or not at all anymore.

Later, I tried them under my 15" woofer enclosures and the results were even better... less smearing of the midrange, which results in better imaging and soundstaging. These 15s can rattle my house much more than my sub could and the result here was even better as far as reduced resonance in my home. 

The thought that speaker cabs don't vibrate enough to transmit vibration to the floor is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: rollo on 26 Mar 2018, 08:01 pm
   We prefer rollers. Similar principle to that of" Roller Blocks" or "Pone Tunes". Try using a 7/8' th. wood dowel cut to speaker width plus one ft. Place dowels front and rear so dowel is at a right angle to speaker enclosure. Your done.
  The cone moves so the natural movement of a non fixed speaker just sounds VG to us. Try it.


charles
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: wushuliu on 26 Mar 2018, 08:28 pm
Oh, that Ethan...

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=177962)
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: gaelen5 on 26 Mar 2018, 08:47 pm
I like this Ethan Winer primer  :thumb:

http://exposed.ethanwiner.com/ate.htm

That's easily one of most messed up video I've seen on the internet, and I've seen some pretty weird shit.

I can't tell if this guy is a total clown, or if he's just stuck in the 80s? He doesn't seem to have done any recent research, and makes claims like cables make no difference. http://ethanwiner.com/myths.html
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: brother love on 26 Mar 2018, 08:51 pm
Thanks for the great input so far!  :thumb: Rollo, I am going to try that dowel method for sure (talk about cheap & cheerful).

Yes, that Ethan Winer (the man loves portraits w/ his cats).  :lol: 

Agree with him or not, he was a great source for acoustic treatment info: http://realtraps.com/info.htm
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: poseidonsvoice on 26 Mar 2018, 09:29 pm
I get great results from IsoAcoustic stands.

Results do depend on the floor and home construction for sure, but for me, I got a subwoofer stand to try out years ago. I crank up my system, the result was subjectively cleaner bass, but also much less resonance throughout my home. All the things that normally rattle around stopped or were reduced in amplitude by a large amount. My home was "singing along" with the music a lot less. Picture frames, lighting enclosures, windows, etc. all vibrate less or not at all anymore.

Later, I tried them under my 15" woofer enclosures and the results were even better... less smearing of the midrange, which results in better imaging and soundstaging. These 15s can rattle my house much more than my sub could and the result here was even better as far as reduced resonance in my home. 

The thought that speaker cabs don't vibrate enough to transmit vibration to the floor is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

Ok, let's not be too rough on Ethan, he does give very good acoustic advice, although his universal approach to side wall 1st reflections I will disagree with (He only agrees with absorption in that area, nothing else!).

What is wrong with Ethan's testing in my opinion is not that measurements don't matter, it's that the wrong measurement was used in this case to arrive at his conclusions. So the problem here is the testing modality.

That being said, my experience with Isoacoustics stands coincides with DaveC's results and yes, it is subjective. The type of testing to properly test isolation products from my understanding is quite expensive, in other words, you can't just use REW and see if there is a change in frequency response  :lol:

In addition, I would like some psychoacoustic research thrown in. I have been tested with blindfolds listening two of the same type of speaker (it was a coax!) with height corrected and I was able to tell which one had an Isoacoustics stand and which one didn't. That being said, I would love for a testing modality to prove it so I can sleep well at night. Yes, I'm still unsure!

Another isolation method type to try is what PrimeAcoustic does with their RX7 monitor isolations (Recoil stabilizer: http://www.primacoustic.com/recoils/). An avid DIY'er could come up with something similar like using a granite slab with foam like product on it (NoRez, PartsExpress Sonic Barrier, etc...)

Best,
Anand.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Danny Richie on 26 Mar 2018, 10:01 pm
Some of the terminology is a little messed up in regards to coupling, de-coupling, and isolation.

What most of these devices really do is damp out vibration. These products act like a shock absorber on your car, but your car is not de-coupled from the road. The tires are still on the road. And the speakers are still coupled to the floor.

Rule of thumb is if the floor can move then there can be some benefit from adding a damper. But if the floor is a solid concrete floor then couple the speaker to the floor with floor spikes.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Dieterle Tool on 26 Mar 2018, 11:20 pm
Thanks for the link and string brother love.

And I have no experience with Ethan Winer, but that second video is pure gold. I will be seeking an ecdysiast for all my isolation and cabling recommendations from now on.  :inlove:

-Dieter
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: brother love on 27 Mar 2018, 01:17 pm
... my experience with Isoacoustics stands coincides with DaveC's results and yes, it is subjective. The type of testing to properly test isolation products from my understanding is quite expensive, in other words, you can't just use REW and see if there is a change in frequency response  :lol:

In addition, I would like some psychoacoustic research thrown in. I have been tested with blindfolds listening two of the same type of speaker (it was a coax!) with height corrected and I was able to tell which one had an Isoacoustics stand and which one didn't. That being said, I would love for a testing modality to prove it so I can sleep well at night. Yes, I'm still unsure!

Another isolation method type to try is what PrimeAcoustic does with their RX7 monitor isolations (Recoil stabilizer: http://www.primacoustic.com/recoils/). An avid DIY'er could come up with something similar like using a granite slab with foam like product on it (NoRez, PartsExpress Sonic Barrier, etc...)

Best,
Anand.

Thanks Anand for the excellent info!  That makes 3 AC'ers that like the IsoAcoustic stands (Dave & corndog71 being the other 2). :thumb:  I had looked into the PrimeAcoustic RX7 & ruled out due to higher price, but DIY version would be feasible (albeit a lot of effort).
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: brother love on 27 Mar 2018, 01:25 pm
Some of the terminology is a little messed up in regards to coupling, de-coupling, and isolation.

What most of these devices really do is damp out vibration. These products act like a shock absorber on your car, but your car is not de-coupled from the road. The tires are still on the road. And the speakers are still coupled to the floor.

Rule of thumb is if the floor can move then there can be some benefit from adding a damper. But if the floor is a solid concrete floor then couple the speaker to the floor with floor spikes.

Thanks Danny. Nomenclature aside, have you used anything that you recommend to dampen vibrations for your speakers on live wood floors? My wife was raised in Texas & still has family there, so I know that most houses are on concrete slabs, but with older ones being pier & beam. Anand mentioned No Rez as a possible effective layer & I know that you sell it for speaker linings. Have you ever tried it under speakers?
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Wind Chaser on 27 Mar 2018, 03:34 pm
Rule of thumb is if the floor can move then there can be some benefit from adding a damper. But if the floor is a solid concrete floor then couple the speaker to the floor with floor spikes.

My listening room is in the basement, so I'm pretty sure there is a concrete floor under the carpet. As stated above, my risers (5.15" high) also act as isolation platforms.  The top 2" layers are solid MDF and everything below on the inside is foam of varying densities. Despite the concrete floor, these do a tremendous job of really cleaning up the bass - and the mids too. The difference is pretty obvious spectacular as tweaks go.

I hate spikes. Besides damaging the carpet they make fine tuning a pain. I'm much happier being able to slide my speakers around without snagging the carpet.  :D


Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: DaveC113 on 27 Mar 2018, 03:53 pm
My listening room is in the basement, so I'm pretty sure there is a concrete floor under the carpet. As stated above, my risers (5.15" high) also act as isolation platforms.  The top 2" layers are solid MDF and everything below on the inside is foam of varying densities. Despite the concrete floor, these do a tremendous job of really cleaning up the bass - and the mids too. The difference is pretty obvious spectacular as tweaks go.

I hate spikes. Besides damaging the carpet they make fine tuning a pain. I'm much happier being able to slide my speakers around without snagging the carpet.  :D

I agree. I've never found spiking a speaker to be better vs isolation. Concrete floors resonate too, and it doesn't sound good.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Wind Chaser on 27 Mar 2018, 03:58 pm
That remind me, I tried both spikes and isolation under a sub in that same room. No contest, isolation all the way!  :thumb:
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: DaveC113 on 27 Mar 2018, 04:15 pm
One of my friends tried hanging his speakers, but then you'd have to get all OCD about what kind of rope!  :lol:
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Danny Richie on 27 Mar 2018, 04:31 pm
The effectiveness of a damper, or what some of you are calling isolation, varies greatly depending on the resonance range or resonance frequency of the floor. There is a trade off between damping a resonance and stabilizing the speaker. So there is no one size fits all solution.

Imagine your speakers to be a boat on the water. You want to average out the little ripples to keep the boat stable. But if the big waves are rocking the boat then you have a whole different issue to address. If the waves are too big then you have to anchor it to the bottom like the dock.

So ideally you want to couple the speaker to floor to keep it from moving forward and back while damping out the smaller vibrations that the floor is creating.

And hanging or suspending a speaker can be good for high frequency, but really bad for lower frequency ranges. It can really knock the bass out of it.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Danny Richie on 27 Mar 2018, 04:34 pm
Thanks Danny. Nomenclature aside, have you used anything that you recommend to dampen vibrations for your speakers on live wood floors? My wife was raised in Texas & still has family there, so I know that most houses are on concrete slabs, but with older ones being pier & beam. Anand mentioned No Rez as a possible effective layer & I know that you sell it for speaker linings. Have you ever tried it under speakers?

I get mixed results from the speakers setting on thick carpet. Upper ranges and imaging is good, but low bass, not so much. If servo subs are built into the speaker then they need to be spiked to the floor. You might want to spike the subs and try dampers on your speakers if they aren't playing down too low.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Captainhemo on 28 Mar 2018, 04:11 pm
We've got a set of these under  Don's  NX-Tremes and they seem to be working well.
His speakers  are  on  carpet so a large  2'x2' tile  sits direct on the carpet, then   the  "iso pods", then the  speakers
http://www.isoacoustics.com/isoacoustics-news/isoacoustics-gaia-speaker-isolation-available-in-the-us-and-canada/

I'm sure you  could get  away with the  smaller ones  for the N3Tl's, yo'd have to call  about thread sizing
jay
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: brother love on 28 Mar 2018, 04:39 pm
Thanks Jay, I appreciate the input! I had looked into the GAIA isolator series when I was looking at the other IsoAcoustic products.  The N3's lined w/ No-Rez weigh 57# each, so I could get by with the III smallest versions. But at $400 for a speaker pair, it's not an option for me.  The L8R-200 sub fixed isolators would work, & for $120 are a strong possibility.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: DaveC113 on 28 Mar 2018, 04:52 pm
AFAIK, all IsoAcoustics products use the same tech, just different form factors.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: debjit.g on 28 Mar 2018, 07:48 pm
I had looked into the GAIA isolator series when I was looking at the other IsoAcoustic products.  The N3's lined w/ No-Rez weigh 57# each, so I could get by with the III smallest versions. But at $400 for a speaker pair, it's not an option for me.  The L8R-200 sub fixed isolators would work, & for $120 are a strong possibility.

You won't regret one bit purchasing the GAIAs. I was in the same boat for getting the GAIA-II but after purchasing I think its one of the best investment I have ever made in audio.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Captainhemo on 28 Mar 2018, 10:54 pm
Thanks Jay, I appreciate the input! I had looked into the GAIA isolator series when I was looking at the other IsoAcoustic products.  The N3's lined w/ No-Rez weigh 57# each, so I could get by with the III smallest versions. But at $400 for a speaker pair, it's not an option for me.  The L8R-200 sub fixed isolators would work, & for $120 are a strong possibility.

Yeah, it's unfortunate how  spendy they are :(
They are available in   the 8mm  thread that  fits  Danny's inserts sold with his kits.

jay
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: timind on 28 Mar 2018, 11:07 pm
Gotta say watching that Ethan Winer video was a bit creepy. What was he thinking?
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 29 Mar 2018, 01:25 am
I made these after reading some of what Barry Diament wrote on Computer Audiophile.  MDF on the floor with three drawer pulls attached that have a concave face.  These are for the ball bearings to rest on.  The top MDF has a large ceramic tile attached to the bottom with liquid nails.  This is for the ball bearings to have a hard smooth surface.  Actually a friend made these for his Magnepan 3.7i speakers and he said "All I can say that it has taken my 3.7s to a new level.  Vocals just sound more realistic.  Cymbals and percussion just have added resolution.  The entire presentation sounds clearer."  I can't say I hear that much of a difference, but there is more clarity.  I'm not sure if the improvement I hear just comes from raising the Spatial M3 Triode Masters up a bit.

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/35143-vibration-air-roller-bearings-thanks-to-barry-warren/?tab=comments#comment-713639

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178102)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178109)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178110)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178111)

Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: S Clark on 29 Mar 2018, 02:40 am
Gotta say watching that Ethan Winer video was a bit creepy. What was he thinking?
Ethan is for sure, ahhh,   --  different. 
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: TJHUB on 29 Mar 2018, 02:45 am
I made these after reading some of what Barry Diament wrote on Computer Audiophile.  MDF on the floor with three drawer pulls attached that have a concave face.  These are for the ball bearings to rest on.  The top MDF has a large ceramic tile attached to the bottom with liquid nails.  This is for the ball bearings to have a hard smooth surface.  Actually a friend made these for his Magnepan 3.7i speakers and he said "All I can say that it has taken my 3.7s to a new level.  Vocals just sound more realistic.  Cymbals and percussion just have added resolution.  The entire presentation sounds clearer."  I can't say I hear that much of a difference, but there is more clarity.  I'm not sure if the improvement I hear just comes from raising the Spatial M3 Triode Masters up a bit.

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/35143-vibration-air-roller-bearings-thanks-to-barry-warren/?tab=comments#comment-713639

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/

Do you have some sort of link to the concave drawer pulls you used?

Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Wind Chaser on 29 Mar 2018, 03:32 am
I'm not sure if the improvement I hear just comes from raising the Spatial M3 Triode Masters up a bit.

Well just lifting them up certainly makes a difference. I've raised mine so that the center of the compression driver matches the height of my ears. Try doing this and see how you like it; I know I sure do. :D 

Isolation is a bonus, and to be honest I think boxed speakers benefit more from it than OBs.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 29 Mar 2018, 03:34 am
I bought them at Home Depot, but can't find a link after looking for quite a while.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Wind Chaser on 29 Mar 2018, 03:57 am
Gotta say watching that Ethan Winer video was a bit creepy. What was he thinking?

I thought it was brilliant.  :o :lol:
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: marvda1 on 29 Mar 2018, 04:25 am
We've got a set of these under  Don's  NX-Tremes and they seem to be working well.
His speakers  are  on  carpet so a large  2'x2' tile  sits direct on the carpet, then   the  "iso pods", then the  speakers
http://www.isoacoustics.com/isoacoustics-news/isoacoustics-gaia-speaker-isolation-available-in-the-us-and-canada/

I'm sure you  could get  away with the  smaller ones  for the N3Tl's, yo'd have to call  about thread sizing
jay

did you consider getting the carpet spikes for the gaia's ?
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: ctviggen on 29 Mar 2018, 09:44 am
I bought them at Home Depot, but can't find a link after looking for quite a while.

Your speakers are sitting only on ball bearings?  You're not concerned about someone hitting them and knocking them over?  With two kids, I'd be terrified of this, though my kids have not hit my speakers (too many times).
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: brother love on 29 Mar 2018, 10:32 am
I made these after reading some of what Barry Diament wrote on Computer Audiophile.  MDF on the floor with three drawer pulls attached that have a concave face.  These are for the ball bearings to rest on.  The top MDF has a large ceramic tile attached to the bottom with liquid nails.  This is for the ball bearings to have a hard smooth surface.  Actually a friend made these for his Magnepan 3.7i speakers and he said "All I can say that it has taken my 3.7s to a new level.  Vocals just sound more realistic.  Cymbals and percussion just have added resolution.  The entire presentation sounds clearer."  I can't say I hear that much of a difference, but there is more clarity.  I'm not sure if the improvement I hear just comes from raising the Spatial M3 Triode Masters up a bit.

Thanks for the awesome info/ links/ pics Hear Clifford Brown!  8)  This is right up my alley. I have a lot of reading & research to do. This ball bearing method for speakers & components &  Rollo's 7/8" dia. wood dowel roller method for speakers are ones that I definitely want to audition & experiment with! For now, the IsoAcoustic stands are my "safety".  :lol:
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: brother love on 29 Mar 2018, 10:33 am
douple post.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: TJHUB on 29 Mar 2018, 10:45 am
I bought them at Home Depot, but can't find a link after looking for quite a while.

Thanks.  I think I found them.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: maty on 29 Mar 2018, 11:08 am
Cheap:

Two woods or thick MDF. You create internal walls using polyurethane. You close three sides with polyurethane. Add construction sand that is dry. Close the fourth side. Now you have mass (MDF+sand) and quay (polyurethane or viscoelastic material equivalent). The sand is a fantastic shock absorber too.

The external polyurethane can be MDF or...

You leave the sides pretty. Sealant and varnish or paint.

Four/three beautiful metal legs.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Letitroll98 on 29 Mar 2018, 12:29 pm
In the OP doesn't the use of the rickety wooden table invalidate all the results?  Shouldn't the speakers rest on the most solid surface possible so that the effect of each isolation devise could be measured more accurately rather than through the lens of the unstable platform that smears everything?

For Rollo's excellent suggestion of the 7/8" dowels, I'm wondering if they should be parallel with the sides or front of the speaker.  From the post I believe he's saying parallel with the front/back, but I'm thinking parallel with the sides would halt any forward/back movement caused by the speaker moving in the same direction.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: brother love on 29 Mar 2018, 07:48 pm
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178110)

Hear Clifford Brown, Is this the correct concave knob? : https://www.homedepot.com/p/Liberty-1-in-Polished-Chrome-Concave-Round-Cabinet-Knob-P65010H-CHR-C/204144097

Judging by the photo, it looks like the screw shank of the concave door knob is recessed in the wood base below it (or was it cut-off some way)?

Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 29 Mar 2018, 08:36 pm
Yes that's the one and correct, the screw shank of the concave knob is recessed into the wood base.  I used a drill press to make the three holes in the wood base that are just slightly larger diameter than than the screw shank part of the knob.  I put some acrylic clear caulk in each hole to hold the knobs in place. 

With my speakers (Spatial M3 TMs) there's really no threat of them tipping over.  I've bumped into them and they just move side to side on the ball bearings.  If bumped hard enough the upper base could roll off the lower one, then the speaker might tip over, or just end up at an awkward angle with one side on a ball bearing and one side not.  But if my kids were still living at home I probably wouldn't do this.

I made the bases out of 3/4" MDF, stained black then given two coats of polyurethane.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Captainhemo on 30 Mar 2018, 05:07 pm
did you consider getting the carpet spikes for the gaia's ?

No but that is a  good  idea

jay
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: undertowogt1 on 30 Mar 2018, 07:27 pm
Well just lifting them up certainly makes a difference. I've raised mine so that the center of the compression driver matches the height of my ears. Try doing this and see how you like it; I know I sure do. :D 

Isolation is a bonus, and to be honest I think boxed speakers benefit more from it than OBs.

I raised mine about  5 inches and prefer it as well.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: emailtim on 2 Apr 2018, 03:30 am
I made these after reading some of what Barry Diament wrote on Computer Audiophile.  MDF on the floor with three drawer pulls attached that have a concave face.  These are for the ball bearings to rest on.  The top MDF has a large ceramic tile attached to the bottom with liquid nails.  This is for the ball bearings to have a hard smooth surface.  Actually a friend made these for his Magnepan 3.7i speakers and he said "All I can say that it has taken my 3.7s to a new level.  Vocals just sound more realistic.  Cymbals and percussion just have added resolution.  The entire presentation sounds clearer."  I can't say I hear that much of a difference, but there is more clarity.  I'm not sure if the improvement I hear just comes from raising the Spatial M3 Triode Masters up a bit.

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/35143-vibration-air-roller-bearings-thanks-to-barry-warren/?tab=comments#comment-713639

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/


(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178102)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178109)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178110)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178111)

Very cool DIY project.  The recessed drawer pull is a great tip for future projects.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: rollo on 2 Apr 2018, 03:48 pm
In the OP doesn't the use of the rickety wooden table invalidate all the results?  Shouldn't the speakers rest on the most solid surface possible so that the effect of each isolation devise could be measured more accurately rather than through the lens of the unstable platform that smears everything?

For Rollo's excellent suggestion of the 7/8" dowels, I'm wondering if they should be parallel with the sides or front of the speaker.  From the post I believe he's saying parallel with the front/back, but I'm thinking parallel with the sides would halt any forward/back movement caused by the speaker moving in the same direction.


   The dowels are to placed perpendicular the side of speaker. One front one back. Just need a level floor below.


charles
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: emailtim on 2 Apr 2018, 05:08 pm

   The dowels are to placed perpendicular the side of speaker. One front one back. Just need a level floor below.


charles

Don't you lose efficiency allowing the speaker to move back and forth versus anchoring it ?  If it moves back and forth, that force that should go into making music gets burnt up mechanically moving the speaker diminishing music production.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: rollo on 2 Apr 2018, 07:01 pm
  No. We are not talking big movement here. Getting more info with more weight. Subs another issue. They should be spiked.


charles
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: DaveC113 on 2 Apr 2018, 11:39 pm
Don't you lose efficiency allowing the speaker to move back and forth versus anchoring it ?  If it moves back and forth, that force that should go into making music gets burnt up mechanically moving the speaker diminishing music production.

It's very easy to do the math if you're interested, but consider a 100g woofer cone pushing against a ~50 kg cabinet. The cabinet not being anchored doesn't make much of a difference.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Danny Richie on 3 Apr 2018, 01:06 am
And yet spiking a speaker to the floor tightens up bass response.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: DaveC113 on 3 Apr 2018, 01:18 am
And yet spiking a speaker to the floor tightens up bass response.

I do not agree with that... It's also a meaningless statement unless you state what you're comparing it to and what the definition of "tightens up bass" means to you.

I can easily support my position with math... but it's so simple I don't think I need to... 
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Danny Richie on 3 Apr 2018, 01:32 pm
And yet it is common observed and accepted by many people...
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: DaveC113 on 3 Apr 2018, 02:31 pm
And yet it is common observed and accepted by many people...

That may be true but "tightens up bass response" is fairly ambiguous... I'm not sure what you mean exactly.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Danny Richie on 3 Apr 2018, 02:58 pm
Come on man. How about the bass can get tighter, and less bloomy.

It's a bit like a sub with cabinet wall resonances. The resonances might be minuscule compared to the output of the woofer, but taking away the resonances sounds cleaner for sure. 
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: DaveC113 on 3 Apr 2018, 03:22 pm
Come on man. How about the bass can get tighter, and less bloomy.

It's a bit like a sub with cabinet wall resonances. The resonances might be minuscule compared to the output of the woofer, but taking away the resonances sounds cleaner for sure.

Ok, that helps. I'm not trying to be difficult, just need more info to better understand your experience otherwise we may be talking about different things.

With IsoAcoustics stands I've had the opposite experience. Reducing the transfer of vibration using them has always cleaned-up the bass in the way you describe because it reduces resonances from the home and everything in it. Just like your subwoofer example, the output from my home is small vs the speaker's direct output, but reducing the home "singing along" with the music makes the sound cleaner.

I don't doubt your experiences but I do wonder how they could be so different? Possibly the design of the speaker cab and listening space... My experience is mostly in residential homes with modern construction, which is easily excited by audio systems playing at moderate to higher SPLs. Also, I do think vibration control devices can't be generalized because the effects are often very different. For example Rollo's dowel rods will only isolate in one dimension and couple in the other two. Ball bearings isolate horizontally but not vertically. IsoAcoustics stands do both, but maybe to a different degree vs many other stands. I can say that myself and others results from Iso stands seem to be very similar. This is why I ask what you compare spiking to? I think it is possible you compared it to something else that was not nearly as effective as Iso stands.

Typically, if we weren't dealing with audio, we'd have measurements that would describe attenuation vs frequency, which might allow some correlation of subjective experience with measured data, but of course we don't have that information...
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: maty on 3 Apr 2018, 03:53 pm
I know, this thread is about speaker isolation but...

What is the best rack to put the amplifier?

http://www.lavardin.com/lavardin-faqE.html#support

Quote
...Should I use cones, rubber feet or springs under components?

It seems every body has forgoten about the story. In the late 70's when Gilles Millot (famous speaker and driver designer) first presented spikes under speakers, the tip was facing a wooden floor.... The spike is only one part of the system : the part that is easy to sell and ship .... Spikes and cones tips must face a damping / spreading material like plywwod. Then, only can the spikes behave as a "large bandwidth" and "omnidirectional emitter" of energy in the dissipating material, thus allowing minimum energy return to the component through the spikes. Only if you have a thick plywood plinth under components, it is worth to try what happens with cones or spikes. Most of the rubber feet, springs or inflating devices are no useless for quality : mostly good enough to provide a less disturbing sound balance in a poor sounding system.


Does plywood also improve speaker's balance and micro-dynamic?

The problem is very much the same as with components. The difference is that some parts of the speakers actually generate vibrations. For the same reasons, decoupling materials should be rigid and damping to allow spreading of the vibration's energy. Again the best material is plywood... A good thick plinth of plywood where to spike a floorstander speaker is a must. Additionally, spikes won't scratch the floor any more. Same applies under stands of bookshelf speakers. Additionaly, one can put plinths on top of each stand. If speakers are also on spikes, it can be also interesting to keep the spikes under the speakers ....

(http://www.lavardin.com/KRAKL12E400.jpg)


There is only 3 feet under Lavardin Technologies amplifiers. Why?

3 feet is the guaranty that each foot will receive a constant pressure what ever is the flatness of the support. With 4 feet and a non perfectly flat support, one foot can remain unloaded. They are made of specific hard neoprene rubber to allow at least good results even in the most adverse environment.

"decoupling materials should be rigid and damping to allow spreading of the vibration's energy"

Like viscoelastic -> spring–mass system. Years ago I chose Tecsound SY 70.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Danny Richie on 3 Apr 2018, 04:02 pm
Dave, my experiences are from our listening room and various audio shows.

The stability of the floors can vary as much as noise on the A/C lines. Some are pretty solid and some will move.

At shows we go through a lot of moving and positioning of the speakers to find the right spots and once we've found the spots then we spike the speakers.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: DaveC113 on 3 Apr 2018, 04:10 pm
Dave, my experiences are from our listening room and various audio shows.

The stability of the floors can vary as much as noise on the A/C lines. Some are pretty solid and some will move.

At shows we go through a lot of moving and positioning of the speakers to find the right spots and once we've found the spots then we spike the speakers.

Ok, I'd just say if you haven't tried the Iso stands they're worth a shot. Maybe you won't like them, but reviews seem to be very consistent. Also, pricing isn't nearly as ridiculous as many others, although the Gaias are spendy they put a lot of effort into design.

I appreciate you sharing your experiences.  :)
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: brother love on 3 Apr 2018, 05:22 pm
I made/ installed new floater roller bearing stands/ platforms for speakers, amp & dac following the Barry Diament Audio "seismic isolation" concept (many thanks to Hear Clifford Brown for link & pics of his speaker stands utilizing this method with cabinet concave door knobs):

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm
https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/24166-equipment-isolation-and-vibration-damping/?page=15

Costs per stand platform
$6.25- 12" x 12" x 3/8" marble tile (Home Depot 5 tiles box/ 4 stands)
$3- (3) 1" dia. chrome concave door knobs (Home Depot)
$0.25- (3) 1/2" dia. marbles ($1 bag- 50 marbles (Dollar General)/ 4 stands; Amazon- (25) 1/2" chrome ball bearings $6/ 4= $1.50)
$3.75- mdf: 4' x 4' x 1": $15 (Home Depot)/ 4 stands (I used some scrap 3/4" plywood that I had handy)
$5- can of primer/ black spray paint (covers all 4 stands (unpainted undersides))
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$18.25 + tax total cost per stand/ platform ($19.75 + tax using chrome ball bearings)

Initial listening impressions w/ familiar tracks regularly used for audition purposes: better focus, accuracy, detail. Bass is tauter, more refined.
Note: I have not yet included bicycle inner tube air bearing for amp/ dac as recommended.

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178377)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178375)

(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=178376)
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: timind on 3 Apr 2018, 10:49 pm
I thought it was brilliant.  :o :lol:

The comment on "never have a square room" is ridiculous. My room is near perfect 12x12x8 and you'd be amazed at how good it sounds.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: emailtim on 4 Apr 2018, 12:12 am
I know, this thread is about speaker isolation but...

What is the best rack to put the amplifier?

http://www.lavardin.com/lavardin-faqE.html#support
....

From their list of materials NOT to use in audio stands (of which they use 3), the only material left appears to be unobtainum.   :D
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: MtnHam on 4 Apr 2018, 04:05 am
4 pages of responses and no one has mentioned Stillpoints??

IMHO, they are a major upgrade under most everything (except TT's.)  The company recommends starting with your speakers.
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: brother love on 7 May 2018, 07:43 pm
Updates to pg. 3 reply #58 newly installed floater roller bearing stands/ platforms for speakers, amp & dac

Replaced marbles with 1/2" dia. chrome ball bearings

Added 12" dia. bicycle inner tubes under dac & amp platforms

Added stained wood trim to front ends of painted black plywood platforms

Can't really detect any further sound improvements w/ updates not already noted in previous post.

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179838)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179839)

(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179837)
Title: Re: Speaker coupling/ decoupling; Ethan Winer speaker isolation products testing
Post by: Hear Clifford Brown on 7 May 2018, 07:52 pm
Looks great  :thumb: