AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Captainhemo on 11 May 2015, 03:25 am
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Not going to go into a lot of detail with this threasd as I've done the dual 12's here (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=127533.0).
I'll just throw up a few pics as I go.
Laminated 5 panels up the other day, 4 for the side panels and the extra one I'll cut the top plates from
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=120855)
4 panels are cut to a final size of 40.5" x 13.75". A 3/4" x 1/2" dado is run vertically up the center (for the baffle) and a horizontal 3/4" x 1/2" dado run 13" from each end for the braces. The baffle is cut 40.5" x 14" then the 11" cutouts routed. 8 braces are cut 14" x 6.5". The 5th panel is cut to 13.75" wide , I'll cut each top plate to approx 16.25" to leave a bit of extra which can be flush trimmed after glue up.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=120856)
Still need to laminate up some bases.
Will get the first cabinet glued up tomorrow and post a pic or two
jay
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Jay,
It will be interesting to hear your thoughts on dual vs triple 12's
Mike
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Mike,
don't really think there will be much of a difference in my room, just not big enough and I don't push my duals at all. When we move them up to my buddy Don's place, I think they are going to be amazing as he's got a very big room, can't wait to hear them up there .
jay
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Jay,
You are amazing. Lemme know when a house in the neighborhood comes up for sale. It's gotta have a room for dedicated HT/two-channel and a big backyard for my garden and fruit trees.
Kidding aside...your duals sounded fantastic the other day. They're going to haunt me for a long time. I'll bet Don's triples are going to be the best in the city. :thumb:
Michael
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Glad that you are doing the triple 12" OB H-frame build Jay. Anxious to see the construction progress and finished speakers. I know that you will do a great job with the build. Thanks for posting the pictures.
Ron
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Jay,
You are amazing. Lemme know when a house in the neighborhood comes up for sale. It's gotta have a room for dedicated HT/two-channel and a big backyard for my garden and fruit trees.
Kidding aside...your duals sounded fantastic the other day. They're going to haunt me for a long time. I'll bet Don's triples are going to be the best in the city. :thumb:
Michael
Hey, now there's an idea !! My aunt is a local realtor you know, just let me know when you're ready... better not forget the fenced backyard for a pup :lol:
glad you liked the subs , they don't have to haunt you , all you've got to do is build a pair .... think I heard somethying that night about it being ok
Thanks Ron, appreciate it. I'm not painting these, Don is going to have them professionally sprayed. I think a coulor has been settled on but I'll hold off until they're done
Jay
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Got the first one glued up after some real work.... had the dados pretty tight, really tight actually. Opened the next set up a bit so it should go together much easier.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=120904)
Have to make a trip to Vancouver for the day tomorrow so will be Wed before any more work is done
jay
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Looking good Jay ! :thumb:
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Just heard the finished subs at our May Audiosyndrome meeting. Three per side with Rythmic plate amps and BG Radia FS880 [ discontinued] speakers. The bass IMO was the most tonaly accurate bass I ever heard period end of story.
The weight ,slam and deeeeeep bass never was boomy or phasey. Stand up bass was near real. organ was out of bounds. So powerfull with tone. One could easilt discern the footpedals and note changes.
No active crossovers, no high pass filter on amp. If you have room for subs just do it and you will be a very happy camper. KUDOS Danny, they are da bomb.
charles
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Eeeesh, you guys are making this hard to just watch, and not sell something to afford to get in on!
Sounds like excellent stuff, looking forward to more build pics and some impressions at the end of the process.
For clarity, to build this one would need to invest in 2 servo amps, and 6 servo 12 inch woofers?
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Just heard the finished subs at our May Audiosyndrome meeting. Three per side with Rythmic plate amps and BG Radia FS880 [ discontinued] speakers. The bass IMO was the most tonaly accurate bass I ever heard period end of story.
The weight ,slam and deeeeeep bass never was boomy or phasey. Stand up bass was near real. organ was out of bounds. So powerfull with tone. One could easilt discern the footpedals and note changes.
No active crossovers, no high pass filter on amp. If you have room for subs just do it and you will be a very happy camper. KUDOS Danny, they are da bomb.
charles
This is exactly my feeling too - the OB Servo subs are simply better than the other bass options. I will never, ever, ever go back to box sub bass. OB gives you way better room integration than any box, and the servo adds punch, dynamics and power that "regular" non-servo OB bass just cannot match. The fact that it goes flat to below 20hz in my room is just gravy....
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Yep. Took me years to pull the trigger on them. No regrets. :thumb:
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I recently ordered the parts to build my second servo sub. Going stereo!
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How much distance from the wall is required for OB servo bass to be effective?
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How much distance from the wall is required for OB servo bass to be effective?
About a foot, minimum. 3 feet is of course better.
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Eeeesh, you guys are making this hard to just watch, and not sell something to afford to get in on!
Sounds like excellent stuff, looking forward to more build pics and some impressions at the end of the process.
For clarity, to build this one would need to invest in 2 servo amps, and 6 servo 12 inch woofers?
Correct. One amp and three drivers per tower.
Mike
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finally got back to work on these....
I purposely cut the tops slightly too wide so that I could trim them off with a flush trim bit after glue up
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121110)
After running the flush trim bit across each side and a light sanding
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121111)
Next came the 3/8" roundover on all inside edges
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121112)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121142)
Then a 3/4" roundover was cut on all outer edges
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121113)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121143)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121144)
When I built the dual 12's, I drilled the holes for the wiring after assembly... it was difficult getting the heles where I wanted them due to the size of the my drill. This time, I pre drilled the holes on the drill press before assembly, one in each rear brace and one in the middle section of the baffle
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121145)
Will make the bases from a double layer of 1" MDF and grill frames from 1/2" MDF, hopefully this weekend.
jay
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Welcome back, Jay!
Those are looking good. I already know they'll sound fantastic. :wink:
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Hey Jay, I must have missed something.
You built and loved the double 12's, what prompted the 3 by's?
Just curious and they look great.
Neil
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Welcome back, Jay!
Those are looking good. I already know they'll sound fantastic. :wink:
Thanks Michael :beer:
Hey Jay, I must have missed something.
You built and loved the double 12's, what prompted the 3 by's?
Just curious and they look great.
Neil
Hey Neil !!
These are actually for a buddy who has a much larger listening room than I do.
I can't see myself ever needing more than what the pair of dual 12's offers, they don't even break a sweat in my room
jay
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That makes sense, but one more question, if you don't mind.
What made you decide to go 2 x 12, instead of 3 x 8?
I might be going OB Bass in the future.
Thanks
Neil
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I'm not Jay, but I do have the 2x12 in my setup and I went with them because they have more headroom and go lower than the 3 x 8. I think they are also shorter, so make for a better option as a speaker stand (if you are so inclined), or less visually intrusive if you are not. But if you can do it at all, using them as stands is IMO their optimal use.
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But if you can do it at all, using them as stands is IMO their optimal use.
Slightly off topic if the OP doesn't mind -- if you use your OB subs as speaker stands, do you guys use spikes or any other kind of isolation? Is it necessary? Do spikes/isolation feet improve the sound?
I'm looking at these and wondering if they would be beneficial underneath the 2x12s: http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/subwoofer-accessories/soundpath-subwoofer-isolation-system
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That makes sense, but one more question, if you don't mind.
What made you decide to go 2 x 12, instead of 3 x 8?
I might be going OB Bass in the future.
Thanks
Neil
Neil,
Also not Jay but I chose the 3x8 for two reasons. First, in their current location, I needed the smaller footprint of the 3x8 vs the 2x12. Second, since I was building the bass units for my Wedgies, I plan on re-purposing the drivers and amps into the wedge bass Danny is working on once it is finished.
While both will play just as low (flat to 20Hz, -3dB @ 14Hz) as I understand it the 12's will do it easier with more authority and presence (two 12's have a little more surface area than four 8's). That being said, the two 3x8 H-Frames are no slouch. They can bring plenty of bass.
Cost wise there is very little difference (~$140) between four 12" drivers + two A370PEQ amps and six 8" drivers + two HX300 amps. Since the cost is so close, it really comes down to what you need. If you want the most output and don't mind the larger footprint, go with two 12's. If you need a smaller footprint or have other design considerations that would favor them, go with three 8's.
Either way you will end up with some awesome subs.
Mike
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Slightly off topic if the OP doesn't mind -- if you use your OB subs as speaker stands, do you guys use spikes or any other kind of isolation? Is it necessary? Do spikes/isolation feet improve the sound?
I'm looking at these and wondering if they would be beneficial underneath the 2x12s: http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/subwoofer-accessories/soundpath-subwoofer-isolation-system
Currently I'm not using anything between the sub and the floor. I am using some of Herbie's big fat dots and square fat dots between the Wedgies and the H-Frames http://herbiesaudiolab.net/spkrfeet.htm
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121248)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121249)
Mike
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Do these kind of subs sound any different if they are turned sideways? I'm looking for a thinner profile.
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Currently mine just have some felt pads so I can slide them around but I have a pair of these Isoacoustic modular stands on order.
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss207/corndog642/Misc%20Audio/10388124_698710053585552_5200899332406504758_n_zpsnu9jlpcd.jpg)
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Tyson and Mike, thanks for the great feedback.
Maybe Danny can weigh in on this question.
Are the 8's going to be faster / more accurate than the 12's?
Thanks again everyone.
Neil
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Do these kind of subs sound any different if they are turned sideways? I'm looking for a thinner profile.
Yes, they sound different turned sideways, but sound better upright.
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Tyson and Mike, thanks for the great feedback.
Maybe Danny can weigh in on this question.
Are the 8's going to be faster / more accurate than the 12's?
Thanks again everyone.
Neil
Neil,
While conventional wisdom would sy the 8's would be faster and more accurate than the 12's, I think the direct servo technology levels the playing field so that the 12's are just as fast and accurate as the 8's.
Mike
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That makes sense, but one more question, if you don't mind.
What made you decide to go 2 x 12, instead of 3 x 8?
I might be going OB Bass in the future.
Thanks
Neil
Neil
Tyson and Mike pretty much said what I'd have said. I did think about going with the triple 8's , when I spooke with Danny before making a decision, I'd say he nudged me towards the 12's when using as a standalone sub which is what I'm doing with the OB7's.
Think the cost for the dual 12's is slightly more than Mike posted ($1520) and with either setup, you'll definitly want to pick up the no rez (4 sheets fro the dual 12;s, 6 for triple 12's) and a couple pairs of the 4 pole connectors that Danny carries
I haven't heard the 8's but I have absolutely no reservations about recommending the 12's, can't imagine not having them now, they're amazing :thumb:
jay
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Tyson and Mike, thanks for the great feedback.
Maybe Danny can weigh in on this question.
Are the 8's going to be faster / more accurate than the 12's?
Thanks again everyone.
Neil
Sorry, replied before I saw this one... I asked Danny the same thing and he said no, with the servo control the 12's will be just a fast
jay
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Yes, they sound different turned sideways, but sound better upright.
Think he meant actually sideways , not laid down (thinner profile ? )
If that's the case, you can't turn them sideways, you'll get very little output as there are nulls at the sdies (front/rear waves cancelling)
jay
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Neil,
While conventional wisdom would sy the 8's would be faster and more accurate than the 12's, I think the direct servo technology levels the playing field so that the 12's are just as fast and accurate as the 8's.
Mike
This is correct.
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That's right, I forgot about that. Cancellation. I will be combining some small speakers that won't look too good on bigger subs. It will be in a room where looks really count.
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If the 12's are too wide, then the 8's will be a significantly smaller footprint.
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Yes, the allure of 12's is a weakness of mine. I am hooked on OB. I want to build with some beautiful hardwood.
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The 12's are pretty wide, if you use a doulbe (1.5") side panels, you're a 16" (15.5" if you use Ruben's flat packs I think).
I've thrown the little X LS Encores up on top and they sound great togethe. The subs are so adjustable you cna combine them with pretty much whatever
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With 1 1/2" side panels, the 3x8 H-frame is 12 1/2" wide. If you build the top with an overhang like Ruben does visually they are larger. However, if you cut the tops flush like Jay does in this thread they will look slimmer.
Mike
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The 8's will look the best. I'm sure they sound great. I haven't heard either.
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Think he meant actually sideways , not laid down (thinner profile ? )
If that's the case, you can't turn them sideways, you'll get very little output as there are nulls at the sdies (front/rear waves cancelling)
jay
What about Dannys U-baffel with the 8" on the side. No body whrite about that project, is it a bad solution or to new project.
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What about Dannys U-baffel with the 8" on the side. No body whrite about that project, is it a bad solution or to new project.
It is not a bad solution at all, just different. The speaker stands you are talking about ended up working like a ported box rather than an open baffle.
If you are pairing them with a ported or sealed monitor and/or need to place them close to the front wall they would be a great choice.
However, if you are wanting the open baffle sound than those stands would not be what you want while the designs discussed in this thread would be.
It's just a matter of different designs for different applications.
Mike
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It is not a bad solution at all, just different. The speaker stands you are talking about ended up working like a ported box rather than an open baffle.
If you are pairing them with a ported or sealed monitor and/or need to place them close to the front wall they would be a great choice.
However, if you are wanting the open baffle sound than those stands would not be what you want while the designs discussed in this thread would be.
It's just a matter of different designs for different applications.
Mike
Thanks Mike. Will the U-baffel then load the room as a ported box or performe naturlig as an OB.
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It is not a bad solution at all, just different. The speaker stands you are talking about ended up working like a ported box rather than an open baffle.
If you are pairing them with a ported or sealed monitor and/or need to place them close to the front wall they would be a great choice.
However, if you are wanting the open baffle sound than those stands would not be what you want while the designs discussed in this thread would be.
It's just a matter of different designs for different applications.
Mike
Thanks Mike. Will the U-baffel then load the room as a ported box or performe naturlig as an OB.
As I understand what Danny said about it, it loads the room like a ported box rather than an OB
Mike
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As I understand what Danny said about it, it loads the room like a ported box rather than an OB
Mike
Hm, if I am right there was a way to minimize the ported effect. If you make the U-baffel wider in the rear than the front. Is that right understood.
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Hm, if I am right there was a way to minimize the ported effect. If you make the U-baffel wider in the rear than the front. Is that right understood.
It was something that was discussed along with adding a shelving circuit to the amp but not sure if Danny has been able to get to it yet
jay
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Hm, if I am right there was a way to minimize the ported effect. If you make the U-baffel wider in the rear than the front. Is that right understood.
Basically a pair of angled "wings". Yes, that should minimize the ported behavior, but on the other hand, it's now a lot more visually obtrusive since the wings go out to the side, even if it's at a pretty acute angle. So I don't think it gains you anything over just a regular H-Frame, particularly with the 8 inch woofers. But that's just my opinion :)
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It was something that was discussed along with adding a shelving circuit to the amp but not sure if Danny has been able to get to it yet
jay
Danny will have to comment, but I believe the shelving circuit is added to the standard servo drive to add 6 dB/oct gain as freq decreases for OB. I believe Danny had to remove this circuit for his stand.
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The 12's are pretty wide, if you use a doulbe (1.5") side panels, you're a 16" (15.5" if you use Ruben's flat packs I think).
I've thrown the little X LS Encores up on top and they sound great togethe. The subs are so adjustable you cna combine them with pretty much whatever
What if you stack a pair of 12" with the speakers firing sideways. Each speaker in an N-frame. I'm not saying this very well, but you would have a 8" W by 13" D by 26" H cabinet. The bottom half would have a 4" by 12" slot that a speaker would fire into sideways. The other half of the bottom front would be blocked (so the sound would escape out the back). The top half of the box would be a mirror image, so the speakers recoil forces cancel. The size would be pretty compact.
Edit: made a sketch of what I was thinking. The resonant freq of the cavity is 1/2 of what that of the H-frame, but it would seem to me you could mitigate that by angling the speaker so that the cavities are triangular instead of rectangular.
(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j389/richardallankellogg/dual_12_1.png)
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Danny will have to comment, but I believe the shelving circuit is added to the standard servo drive to add 6 dB/oct gain as freq decreases for OB. I believe Danny had to remove this circuit for his stand.
you maybe right about him removing it although I thought it was the opposite, thought he started with a standard HX300/500 (don't remeber whcich) and Brian was going to send himj the OB shelving circuit addon to try :scratch:
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What if you stack a pair of 12" with the speakers firing sideways. Each speaker in an N-frame. I'm not saying this very well, but you would have a 8" W by 13" D by 26" H cabinet. The bottom half would have a 4" by 12" slot that a speaker would fire into sideways. The other half of the bottom front would be blocked (so the sound would escape out the back). The top half of the box would be a mirror image, so the speakers recoil forces cancel. The size would be pretty compact.
Edit: made a sketch of what I was thinking. The resonant freq of the cavity is 1/2 of what that of the H-frame, but it would seem to me you could mitigate that by angling the speaker so that the cavities are triangular instead of rectangular.
(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j389/richardallankellogg/dual_12_1.png)
Ouot of my comfort level but. if I were to take a stab at this, the back side of the drivers is open to the front/rear ? Would you just not end up canceling all the output from the opeings on the front side of the drivers (one front / one rear ) ? IF they didn't cancel, you may run into the slot acting as a port similar to what happened with Danny's U-Frame .
Again, just thoughts , Danny will have to actually answer this for you
jay
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What if you stack a pair of 12" with the speakers firing sideways. Each speaker in an N-frame. I'm not saying this very well, but you would have a 8" W by 13" D by 26" H cabinet. The bottom half would have a 4" by 12" slot that a speaker would fire into sideways. The other half of the bottom front would be blocked (so the sound would escape out the back). The top half of the box would be a mirror image, so the speakers recoil forces cancel. The size would be pretty compact.
Edit: made a sketch of what I was thinking. The resonant freq of the cavity is 1/2 of what that of the H-frame, but it would seem to me you could mitigate that by angling the speaker so that the cavities are triangular instead of rectangular.
(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j389/richardallankellogg/dual_12_1.png)
That's what we call a buzz box. Those large un-braced panels are as bigger than the woofers. They will be under a LOT of force and flex and buzz like crazy.
That will also really load the driver and cause a peak in the response all in one place.
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Do these kind of subs sound any different if they are turned sideways? I'm looking for a thinner profile.
If you take an H frame baffle design and turn it sideways then you are sitting in the null area (no output).
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Tyson and Mike, thanks for the great feedback.
Maybe Danny can weigh in on this question.
Are the 8's going to be faster / more accurate than the 12's?
Thanks again everyone.
Neil
Dragsters are slightly faster than Funny Cars, but they are both a lot faster than everything else.
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The concept of the stands with the two woofers was to make a really small and narrow stand for use with mini-monitors.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/stands1.jpg)
They worked great and sound great. They are ideal for small rooms and small speakers only. They are not for playing high SPL levels in this configuration.
I did have to by-pass the shelving circuit on the HX300 amp to keep from over driving the woofers with really low notes. The servo system just wanted to keep the response linear all the way down to the low 20's and the two 8's just ran out of X-max if pushed to high volume levels.
(http://gr-research.com/pics/stands2.jpg)
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Danny, what is a small room for you? And is a sealed box with one 6,5" and a tweeter a minimonitor?
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Danny, what is a small room for you?
Good question. And...
What "rule of thumb" is a good room size bench mark where one would go from 2 to 3- 12"ers H-Frame per side? Moderate "normal" listening levels w moderate "normal" music, etc., etc..
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That's what we call a buzz box. Those large un-braced panels are as bigger than the woofers. They will be under a LOT of force and flex and buzz like crazy.
That will also really load the driver and cause a peak in the response all in one place.
I see, what if those panels are eliminated and the speakers are angled to like 35-45 deg?
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Any room as small or smaller than the typical hotel exhibit room is a small room. They are about 13' by 19'.
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I see, what if those panels are eliminated and the speakers are angled to like 35-45 deg?
Keep in mind that at 90 degrees off axis there is a null where there is no output. Open baffle designs need to face the listener.
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Any room as small or smaller than the typical hotel exhibit room is a small room. They are about 13' by 19'.
Hey -- my room is 13' x 20', so I just made the cut-off! From this point forward, I'm gonna snub my nose at anyone with a small room. :lol:
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Danny is there a minimum distance from sidewalls or rear wall required ? If my speakers are 6ft center to center and the subs flanking the speakers and are facing forward what is the minimum distance required for triple OB subs ? Thanks. Speakers are out 5.5 ft from rear wall. Room is 16ftW and 15 ft long.
charles
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Danny is there a minimum distance from sidewalls or rear wall required ? If my speakers are 6ft center to center and the subs flanking the speakers and are facing forward what is the minimum distance required for triple OB subs ? Thanks. Speakers are out 5.5 ft from rear wall. Room is 16ftW and 15 ft long.
charles
We recommend at least three feet to the front wall (wall behind the OB drivers). You can actually get them pretty close to the side walls with no issues.
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Thanks Danny.
charles
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Any room as small or smaller than the typical hotel exhibit room is a small room. They are about 13' by 19'.
Thanks, My room is a small room 15' x 19' and I don't play load, any longer. So I Can use 2 or 3 8" in the U-baffel or use My 12" OB servo woofers in a new U-baffel side placed drivers, wider in the rear than the front, to minimize the ported effect. And then have a smaller Cabinet than My H-baffel, gloser the frontwall.
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Thanks, My room is a small room 15' x 19' and I don't play load, any longer. So I Can use 2 or 3 8" in the U-baffel or use My 12" OB servo woofers in a new U-baffel side placed drivers, wider in the rear than the front, to minimize the ported effect. And then have a smaller Cabinet than My H-baffel, gloser the frontwall.
I have not tested the 12's in a side loaded U shaped baffle.
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Keep in mind that at 90 degrees off axis there is a null where there is no output. Open baffle designs need to face the listener.
I don't understand. The cancellation at 90 deg is due to the 2 sources being 180 out of phase and both sources being the same acoustic path distance to the observer. The tilting of the driver doesn't change that. Looking at the pic below, if you take the "top half" and place it directly to the left of the "bottom half", you essentially have the "W-Frame" (on its side) from your SW-12-16FR web page here: http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/obsub.pdf (http://www.gr-research.com/pdf/obsub.pdf)
(http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j389/richardallankellogg/dual_12_3.png)
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rak313,
What you have drawn will work. However... You still have a large un-braced panel. I used that design with the V-2's but had to double up the wall thickness and line them with No Rez to control wall flexing.
(http://gr-research.com/ProductImages/v2nude.jpg)
And this was with a conventional woofer that doesn't have near the output of the servo subs.
These also had small Neodymium magnets that allowed them to fit in that way.
(http://gr-research.com/mis/ven1.jpg)
The huge motor structure of the servo subs will need a lot more room for mounting them behind each driver.
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Very nice looking speakers. You already had me convinced in previous posts that bracing is very important.
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More progress on the cabinets
After laminating the bases (2 x1" MDF) , I laid out 4 mounting screws as well as the holes for the threaded 8mm inserts for the spikes. Bases were final cut to be 2" larger than the cabinet on all sides.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121401)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121402)
Baes were then temporarily installed / test fit on the cabinets
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121403)
Grill frames were cut 41.5" x 15" to leave a .5" "border" when in place. Laid out and pre-drilled small pilot holes in the 8 magnet locations on the grill frame blanks
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121404)
With the bases still dry fited, the grill blanks were clamped in place to transfer magnet locations to cabinets by lightly spinning the same bit used to drill the grill frames
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121405)
After removing the blank and base, each cabinet was laid down and each marked hole was drilled to the proper depth for seating the magnets. Each magnets is expoxied into place and skim coated with a bit of filler before blcok saninding flush. No need to worry abouot magnet polarity, just be sure to orientate properly when you later istall the magnets in the frames.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121406)
The frames will have to be finished off later, need to get the cabinets off for painting by the weekend.
Bases were removed , a 3/4" roundover applied, sanded , then glued/screwed into place for the final time
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121407)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121414)
Prep will continue tomorrow
jay
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Really nice work Jay, going to look amazing..... :thumb:
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Really nice work Jay, going to look amazing..... :thumb:
Thanks Perry ! Pretty much done, one final sanding, a quick coat of bed liner on the bottom of the bases and they're out the door (tomorrow afternoon or Sat am) to get painted
Will post a couple more pics before they go out
jay
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The cabinet construction look great Jay. Nice job ! :thumb: Anxious to see a picture of them after they have been painted.
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Thanks Ron, we dropped them off for paint this am, not sure of a time frame.
Here are a couple more pics before they went out
Sprayed the bases with truckbed liner, I like using it as it's pretty durable. Insertes were threaded in for the final time and threw the spiks in just because
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121589)
Dealing with seams.... just never seems to end. You think you've got it beat then you find a bit more. I went out this am to give the cabinets a final wipe down and ended up spending a bit more time sanding. This is how the seams looked going out the door
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121590)
One final pic all wiped down and ready to go
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121591)
More pics when they get back !
jay
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I know what you mean Jay, seams are a royal pain. Looking good though. What type of paint job are they getting. It doesn't sound like your usual?
Mike
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Mike,
We took the cabinets to a local automotive painter for a base caot/clear coat. They'll first hit the cabinets with a coat of primer/sealer, give them a quick once over, and then paint away.
My buddies wife got to pick the color , looking forward to seeing the results !!
jay
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Spent a bit of time in the garage this afternoon and got back to work on those grill frames.
Continued on with these by first rounding each of the four corners and then putting a 3/8" roundover on the front edge
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121658)
After a bit of light sanding, the frame with it's basic shape
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121659)
Next I cut out a 13" circle at each end of the frame.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121660)
To cut out the middle section, I use a long piece of 1/2" MDF as a guide. Line it up with the edge of the cutouts and secure in place by either clamping or using a couple small screws throug the pilot hoes for the mangets. Then just use a flush trim bit to make a clean cut between the two cutouts. Repeat for the other side
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121662)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=121663)
Once the cabinets are back from paint, each magnet can be orientated correctly to it's mate in the cabinet and epoxied into place in the grill frame, After that, a dab of filler for each pilot hole will make them disappear
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jay,
I am thinking about having the local autobody folks finish my 12" H-Frame modules. Talked to them awhile back and they only use water based finish systems. Everyone thinks it is fine for finishing the MDF.
The other idea is a Minwax sealer/stain system.
Watching how yours go to help with the decision.
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Hey Rich
I think the water based system should work fine , at this point I sure hope it does ! I don't know if this really matters much but I pre-soak/coat the ends or open grain if you will with a water/glue mix so that the MDF would get sealed up. I do that before the final sandings and it really seems to help make those end cuts more like the finished sides.
The painter wanted to use his own primer/sealer which makes it tough for prep I find. I like to be able to put something on the cabinet to help show any problems. They're in the painters hands now so we'll see, hopefully fairly soon but I don't have a time frame.
Will let you know how it goes and if there are any issues with the water bases automotive finish
jay
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jay,
Sounds like the same thing I was told.
Will be watching. :D
Rich
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The cabinets are back frm paint and there is good news and bad news. I guess the good news first... the water baed automotve paint worked extremely well. It has a great finish and seems to have adhered very well. The color is actually a Turquoise, Don still hasn't decided on grill cloth, we've looked at white, black and grey, possibly even looking for a pattern or something with some accents of some kind.
The bad news... I was worried about sending the cabinets in without priming them first. We spoke with the painter and told him, if there were any issues that come to light after primeing call and we'll take care of them. Well, there were a few issues and no, they didn't call, they just painted right over them :(
Aside from the seams not being 100% perfect, it would appear they didn't do a very good job of wiping the cabinets downwith a tack rag before spraying. In cetain areas , there are very small bits of debris in some places, pretty frustrating. In a couple of spots , it almost would appear they bumped the wet paint with something. If hey had spent a bit more time , or called us after priming, the paint could have been much better. given that, the paint still looks very god, just there are some areas which obviously needed some more atentin
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122615)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122616)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122617)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122618)
Rich, I'd say as long as yu use a poainter who'll pay a little more attention to detail, you have absolutely nothing to worry about using the water based automotive paint. Like i said above, the finish is actually gorgeous, the issues are with the care taken with final prep and possibly right after the paint was appliied..
I'm going to try a bit of 1500 grit wet paper to try and deal with a couple spots (startng otn he rear of the cabinets to sample) and see if I can't improve a couple areas before installing the drivers, no res, and wireing them up.
jay
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Jay,
Those do look good in the pictures. You're issues highlight some problems you can run into when you can't control the project.
A take away I get is that if I have somebody else paint a project I would set it up so I had to sign off on the primer stage before they could apply the top coat rather than leaving it up to them to decide if they should call me or not.
I think I'm going to go ahead and order an HVLP spray system, build the spray booth I can set up and take down as needed then do my own spraying. That way I keep control over the project. I wonder why my wife accuses me of being a control freak :scratch:
Mike
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Jay,
Thanks for the info.
Will be talking to them to get an estimate now that I know it will work.
I would only be using a roller if I did it, so this would look better than that!
Rich
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Jay,
Those do look good in the pictures. You're issues highlight some problems you can run into when you can't control the project.
A take away I get is that if I have somebody else paint a project I would set it up so I had to sign off on the primer stage before they could apply the top coat rather than leaving it up to them to decide if they should call me or not.
I think I'm going to go ahead and order an HVLP spray system, build the spray booth I can set up and take down as needed then do my own spraying. That way I keep control over the project. I wonder why my wife accuses me of being a control freak :scratch:
Mike
You're 100% right on all points Mike. The part that gets me is that aside from a bit of seam showing in spots, they were just careless and apparently lazy.
Rich, as stated above, they look pretty dam good for the most part, the paint has a beautiful finish to it, not even comparable to a rolled finish. It's bascially an automotive finish and it would appear to be quite durable, at least that is the impression I get.
Just be careful when you pick your painter and explain to him what you expect, don't take it for granted that he'll know.
jay
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here is a better pic of the actual finish for you Rich, guess the actual color is somewhere between this and the ones taken with the flash above, very light dependent
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122625)
jay
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Hi Jay, please keep the pictures coming.
Really nice cabinets.
Thanks.
Guy 13
If those were mine,
I would have preferred red color,
but you choice of color would have been my 2nd or 3rd choice.
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Jay,
Wow! That really does change color with lighting.
Will take the info and talk to the local body shop and see the costs involved. I can always have them do one module and see how it goes before doing the rest as a test. Now I just have to pick a color scheme. Still thinking Ferrari Red with racing stripes, but the blue has me thinking! :)
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Just go to a local furniture shop as an option too. As long as they know the material has to be sprayed wet it will be fine. Gary's V 1's were done with auto paint and just thinned do you could use an airless sprayer. Red sides and gray box. Auto shops work but my gut tells me the finish on wood maybe better at a furniture shop.
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The problem is all the furniture shops in the area will not take on side painting projects when I have tried, or want 6 months to get to the job. That is why I am trying the autobody places.
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Your experience with this paint job matches mine with having customization done on my wheels. I was dissatisfied with every single job I had done (dropping the suspension four inches, custom billet wheels, even tinting the damn windows!). Yes I'm a perfectionist and have higher than normal standards, but my dissatisfaction is not the result of that fact. The jobs done were just lame ass pitiful excuses for "professional" work. Don't these people take any pride in their work? Luckily we have Danny, Brian (Rythmik), and Ruben around here!
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Here's how I plan on dealing with the control issue. I ordered one of these in today. Should be in by next Friday. It's an Earlex Spray Port 6003 3 stage turbine HVLP system with a gravity feed gun.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122665)
Mike
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Here's how I plan on dealing with the control issue. I ordered one of these in today. Should be in by next Friday. It's an Earlex Spray Port 6003 3 stage turbine HVLP system with a gravity feed gun.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122665)
Mike
I've owned a HVLP for about 20 or so years now. When I built my house my buddy custom built all my cabinets and I sprayed them with high gloss car paint. At the time European cabinets cost a fortune so we made them ourselves. I love having it, you can put down paint, even oil base with confidence and it will turn out amazing with just a little practice. I'm in need of a new gun and my original wasn't gravity feed, seems like a lot better way to go.
Have fun with your new toy!
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I've owned a HVLP for about 20 or so years now. When I built my house my buddy custom built all my cabinets and I sprayed them with high gloss car paint. At the time European cabinets cost a fortune so we made them ourselves. I love having it, you can put down paint, even oil base with confidence and it will turn out amazing with just a little practice. I'm in need of a new gun and my original wasn't gravity feed, seems like a lot better way to go.
Have fun with your new toy!
Greg,
I intend to. Now, just as long as my wife doesn't figure out I could also use it to spray the fence and deck I'll be in good shape :)
Mike
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Greg,
I intend to. Now, just as long as my wife doesn't figure out I could also use it to spray the fence and deck I'll be in good shape :)
Mike
It ONLY works on small FUN project like speakers. It's very much a specialty tool and doesn't work well on projects that feel like work or are on a honey do list!
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It ONLY works on small FUN project like speakers. It's very much a specialty tool and doesn't work well on projects that feel like work or are on a honey do list!
Thanks, I'll remember that! She doesn't have a honey do list, she has a honey do catalog!
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One done , up and running and sounds GREAT ! Don is doing his happy dance :dance:
Drivers installed & wired
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122694)
No rez
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122695)
Apic for the wife to see if black is the color for grill cloth
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122696)
We pulled one of my dual s out and placed this in it's place. man, I thoght the duals were heavey, OMG.
It's only the 1st and it's only been playing for about an hour but oh boy, can't wait to get the next one hooked up..... I can see me ordering 2 more drivers and building some new cabinets in the not too distant futre
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122697)
Danny, you'll be getting a call from Don first thing, we ran out of wire :(
jay
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One done , up and running and sounds GREAT ! Don is doing his happy dance :dance:
No rez
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122695)
We pulled one of my dual s out and placed this in it's place. man, I thoght the duals were heavey, OMG.
It's only the 1st and it's only been playing for about an hour but oh boy, can't wait to get the next one hooked up..... I can see me ordering 2 more drivers and building some new cabinets in the not too distant futre
Danny, you'll be getting a call from Don first thing, we ran out of wire :(
jay
Jay,
Why No-Rez in front of drivers?
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Jay,
Why No-Rez in front of drivers?
hey Larry
All of the 6 driver cavities (3 front / 3rear) get lined with no res from baffle to basically the front edge to help reduce any cabint resonance. Those sections are basically 6.5" x 13" panels surrounding each driver. Just trim about 1.25" of the foam from the baffle edge of the no rez to give the driver some clearence . On the 12's, one sheet per driver works out perfect.
jay
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hey Larry
All of the 6 driver cavities (3 front / 3rear) get lined with no res from baffle to basically the front edge to help reduce any cabint resonance. Those sections are basically 6.5" x 13" panels surrounding each driver. Just trim about 1.25" of the foam from the baffle edge of the no rez to give the driver some clearence . On the 12's, one sheet per driver works out perfect.
jay
Just to make sure I understand correctly 1 sheet of NoRez per driver x 6 drivers = 6 sheets of NoRez for the two 3x12 cabinets, correct?
Mike
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Just to make sure I understand correctly 1 sheet of NoRez per driver x 6 drivers = 6 sheets of NoRez for the two 3x12 cabinets, correct?
Mike
Yup, you'll have about an inch left off each 13" strip and each 11" strip ( I cut each sheet into a 13 x 27 and 11 x 27 piece then cut tose to 6.375 pieces , 8 in total for each driver)
jay
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Wow, I am going to need 12 sheets of NoRez! :o
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Wow, I am going to need 12 sheets of NoRez! :o
Too funny, I was just telling Don yesterday how much no rez you'd be needing for your sickness, or I mean project!!.
jay
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Hoping for a quantity discount! :D
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hey Larry
All of the 6 driver cavities (3 front / 3rear) get lined with no res from baffle to basically the front edge to help reduce any cabint resonance. Those sections are basically 6.5" x 13" panels surrounding each driver. Just trim about 1.25" of the foam from the baffle edge of the no rez to give the driver some clearence . On the 12's, one sheet per driver works out perfect.
jay
Do you really think the no-res is necessary, since this is not a closed cabinet? Maybe for the sides but surely not for the front and back braces (as the pressure on the braces is balanced by the drivers - and shouldn't cause vibration).
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Danny can better answer that but I can tell you, even in OB configuration, these drivers put a LOT of force on the cabinets.
Necessary, no probably not, worthwhile, I'd say most definitely yes. You can say that about pretty much any place you are going to use no-rez.
If you are going this far why not do it right, my $.02 of course
jay
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Do you really think the no-res is necessary, since this is not a closed cabinet? Maybe for the sides but surely not for the front and back braces (as the pressure on the braces is balanced by the drivers - and shouldn't cause vibration).
Danny has said that for H-frames the floor tile method of damping the MDF walls is an acceptable economy alternative to NoRez. Make sure to get the heavy (over a lb. each, at 12" square!) Armstrong non-Peel & Stick composite tiles. They have the ability to damp the physical resonance of the MDF, but not absorb acoustic energy. Since the frames are Open Baffles that doesn't matter.
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Danny has said that for H-frames the floor tile method of damping the MDF walls is an acceptable economy alternative to NoRez. Make sure to get the heavy (over a lb. each, at 12" square!) Armstrong non-Peel & Stick composite tiles. They have the ability to damp the physical resonance of the MDF, but not absorb acoustic energy. Since the frames are Open Baffles that doesn't matter.
I would think 1 1/2" thick MDF sides, with those braces and open to the air, would not need no-res. (I am a firm believer of no-res in a sealed box.)
I see the point of not cheeping out after going to all of the trouble of building such a good sub, but at $50 added per driver, that is quite expensive.
The floor tile method is interesting.
Edit: It would be really interesting to see someone put an accelerometer on the sides before/after applying no-res to the open baffle configuration and compare.
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Purple heart amp boxes. got the amps installed /wired this afternoon , waiting on wire to do the other tower
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122823)
jay
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I would think 1 1/2" thick MDF sides, with those braces and open to the air, would not need no-res. (I am a firm believer of no-res in a sealed box.)
I see the point of not cheeping out after going to all of the trouble of building such a good sub, but at $50 added per driver, that is quite expensive.
The floor tile method is interesting.
Edit: It would be really interesting to see someone put an accelerometer on the sides before/after applying no-res to the open baffle configuration and compare.
yeah, you can use the floor tiles/OCF , I've done it before in box speakers (X LS Encores) and you know what ? It is a major PITA if yo ask me, I hate working with contact cement and just too mcuh cutting, basically double if you use the OCF on top. I believe danny posted some time ago you'd get about 70% of the dampening effect of no -rez, guess if you are happy with that and don't mind the extra work...
No rez is so dam easy to work with, cut it on the table saw, PSA , no fumes and, it works better !!
As I mentined earlier, don't let the OB desing lead yo ubelieve there isn't much preasure/impact on the cabinets. You'd be pretty surpriesed I think.
LOl , gues we could debate this forever , if I were ever building more or building more for a customer, there will be an adequet supply of no-rez coming with the other components..
PS, there's got to be a good reason Danny uses it in the Super V's, Super 7's, tripl3 12 towers for the LSX's etc throughout the cabinets
jay
jay
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yeah, you can use the floor tiles/OCF , I've done it before in box speakers (X LS Encores) and you know what ? It is a major PITA if yo ask me, I hate working with contact cement and just too mcuh cutting, basically double if you use the OCF on top. I believe danny posted some time ago you'd get about 70% of the dampening effect of no -rez, guess if you are happy with that and don't mind the extra work...
No rez is so dam easy to work with, cut it on the table saw, PSA , no fumes and, it works better !!
As I mentined earlier, don't let the OB desing lead yo ubelieve there isn't much preasure/impact on the cabinets. You'd be pretty surpriesed I think.
LOl , gues we could debate this forever , if I were ever building more or building more for a customer, there will be an adequet supply of no-rez coming with the other components..
PS, there's got to be a good reason Danny uses it in the Super V's, Super 7's, tripl3 12 towers for the LSX's etc throughout the cabinets
jay
Yep, that's all true.
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Purple heart amp boxes. got the amps installed /wired this afternoon , waiting on wire to do the other tower
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=122823)
jay
Very nice Jay
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Can you post specific pictures (the best you can anyway) of the no-res application?
Does it change the dimensions worth mentioning?
Also, can someone point me to a the plans for a 3 x 12" cabinet? And notes regarding wiring and (series etc..) and the specs on efficiency and resulting ohms?
Gracious.
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Can you post specific pictures (the best you can anyway) of the no-res application?
Does it change the dimensions worth mentioning?
Also, can someone point me to a the plans for a 3 x 12" cabinet? And notes regarding wiring and (series etc..) and the specs on efficiency and resulting ohms?
Gracious.
Hi lokie
The no rez is extremely easy to apply. Becauase the inner enclosure dimension for each driver is 13" x 13" X 6.5" (each side) I cut each sheet of no rez into a 13" x 27" and a 11" x 27" strip (do all the sheets like this before moving on). Then I set my saw to 6.375" and cut all my pieces. The 13" strps go on the top and bottom panels of each driver while the 11" strips go vertially. You'll also need to cut approx 1.25" of foam off the no res on the inner edge of each piece for driver cleearence. A few of the pieces will be notched in one corner to expose the holes drilled for the wiring but you can do that as you are installing the no rez.
The no rez uses a PSA so it is basically peel & stick once you've got everything cut. Just be sure to apply to a very clean surface and use as much preasure as possible on each piece as you install it.
Sometime today I'll grab a couple pics of a mock install as I'm still waiting on the wire to finish the 2nd cabinet so all the no rez is cut and trimmed, just not installed.
Wiring is pretty straight forward. Parallel all the driver coils together with the middle (rear facing) driver being wired out of phase. The servo coils are wired in series, so start at the botto. Go red from the amp to red on the bottom servo coil -> black from that coil to black on middle servo coilo-> red -> red on top servo coil, then black from amp to black on top servo coil (note that the middle servo coil is again out of phase but in series).
I did up a couple quick little diagrams for soneone else a while back , here they are:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123565)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123566)
Noe, this is assuming you've got the middle driver reversed. If it was facing forward, you'd just wire it all in phase.
Remember to grab a couple of the 4 pole connectors from Danny when you order you parts. Don't forget when you wire the plugs, they need to be mirrors of each other so 2 of the 4 wires will need to be reversed (which 2 depends on how you wire the plugs)
Not sure there are any actual drawing for the triples. I based mine off teh dual drawing and made a few changes (slight change to brace lauyout, dados , etc). While I don't have a PDF , I do have a little word doc I can send you with a cct list and other details that I used for these. LMK if yo uwant it
Will grab you a few pics later today
jay
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Here you....
After cuttingit all, just a matter of peel and stick :thumb:
Here's the trimmed edge, do this to every piece on the edge that goes up against the driver
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123574)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123575)
Then it's just a matter of peeling off the backing...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123576)
Do the bottom piece
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123577)
ZThen the top piece....
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123578)
Finally slip in the 2 11" pices on the sides
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123579)
Repeat for the other 44 pieces of no-rez.... or in Rich's case, the other 92 !! :lol:
Remember, apply to a clean surface and try and rub down each piece as you apply it with preasure as best you can. The no-rez actually adheres very well.
jay
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I didn't think No Rez would make much of a difference with an OB sub like mine, so I ran my Super 7's for a while without it installed, then put it in after a few weeks. Uhm, yeah, that's a nice upgrade.
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I didn't think No Rez would make much of a difference with an OB sub like mine, so I ran my Super 7's for a while without it installed, then put it in after a few weeks. Uhm, yeah, that's a nice upgrade.
That's why I was saying ealier in the thread if someone is going to do them, there really isn't any point in holding back over a few sheets of no-rez.
I've never done the sans no rez test in the OB subs, but I didn't figure Danny would be installing it if it didn't make a signifgant difference. The V series subs, the Super 7['s, and the triple subs for the LSX all use it (lots of other examples too but as you know, those are all OB subs)
jay
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I think it doesn't just quiet the panel vibration, I also think there might be a bit of cone noise that it absorbs too. I think that some of these cones might generate home higher order harmonics that make it easier to locate the bass woofers, and maybe the norez damps that down significantly too. Or at least that's my WAG.
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I have a pair of dual 12" OB H-frames currently without no rez.
When I look in my tool box, I've got some scissors, a couple of hack saws, and a circular saw that I never use.
How do I cut the no rez if I lack the commercial-quality tools you guys have? How much no rez do I need to order?
(To be honest, I'd really prefer to pay someone to pre-cut and ship the no rez to me.)
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Danny will guide you about the amount. As far as cutting... This isn't rocket science. Use a straight edge and a Sharpie to mark the no-Rez on the vinyl side, set the blade of your circular saw at about 1/4 to 1/2" depth, cut, then finish the cuts with a sharp knife. Easy peasy.
-
^^
| |
yup, simple.
1 sheet per driver for 12's, almost zero left over
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OK, thanks fellas.
-
Here you....
After cuttingit all, just a matter of peel and stick :thumb:
Here's the trimmed edge, do this to every piece on the edge that goes up against the driver
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123574)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123575)
Then it's just a matter of peeling off the backing...
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123576)
Do the bottom piece
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123577)
ZThen the top piece....
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123578)
Finally slip in the 2 11" pices on the sides
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=123579)
Repeat for the other 44 pieces of no-rez.... or in Rich's case, the other 92 !! :lol:
Remember, apply to a clean surface and try and rub down each piece as you apply it with preasure as best you can. The no-rez actually adheres very well.
jay
Puny bass is for weak earthlings! Been very quiet on the east coast. Time for some seismic activity! :lol:
-
I find that my jigsaw does a superb job of cutting the no rez. Scares me less than table saw and cuts all the way through the foam.
-
Sorry for being a putz if the answer to this question is right in front of me, :
Where can I find some build plans for Triple 12" OB H-Frames?
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Not really sure there is a pdf out there for the triples, you can use the lower section of the Super V (dual 12's as a guide) to build your triples from.
If you'd like, feel free to shoot me a PM , I have a .doc file I kept all the measurements/cut lists i used for building the duals and triples... you're welcome to have a copy if you want
-jay
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Is Reuben still doing the flat packs for the OB Subs?
I have been looking for a Dual H-Frame setup, plans, etc. to figure out cost.
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Is Reuben still doing the flat packs for the OB Subs?
I have been looking for a Dual H-Frame setup, plans, etc. to figure out cost.
If you are going to build your own and plan to use .75" MDF, laminate the sides, top, and bottom panels, you'll be using close to a full sheet per cabinet.
Shoot Ruben a PM, sure he'll cut you a pair and ship you flat packs, just a matter of time to get them cut
jay
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Jay...thanks I did send a PM. No big rush here..... Wanted to talk with "Hal" some more about his build at the CAF, but never got around to tracking him down again...
-
DTB300,
Just let me know what your questions are about the servo subs and will try to answer them.
Now back to the regularly scheduled programming. :D
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Well, after a HUGE delay courtasey of USPS :lol: finally wired the 2nd triple and they are both up and playing... now to move them to their new home, that'll be fun :roll:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=127430)
-jay
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I don't envy you that move. The triple 8 H-frames are heavy enough.
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Well, after a HUGE delay courtasey of USPS :lol: finally wired the 2nd triple and they are both up and playing... now to move them to their new home, that'll be fun :roll:
-jay
What the heck, man! No comment or comparison to the duals? I want to know what I'm missing. :P :wink:
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Cool. Thanks for sharing.
How bout a quickie BOM?
I may be pulling the trigger on this project before the end of the year.
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What the heck, man! No comment or comparison to the duals? I want to know what I'm missing. :P :wink:
:lol:
well..... as one might expect,the duals and the triples sound siilar in the fact they both produce extremely clean, tight, and accurate bass. Both are very fsst and integrate seemlessly with my OB7's. . These subs are so adjustable with the features of the A370PEQ I can't see an issue integrating them with anything. I've paired a set of x ls encores with my duals and they sound great.
the triples offer more... you are moving a 3rd more air so there is more punch/weight behind everything, you definately feel everything more and amazingly enough, it seems even tighter and more defined playing at the same SPL, there seems to be more "ambiance" in the room too.
Along with moving 1/3 more air volume, you are working the drivers less to reach the desired SPL so things are cleaner, the drivers are not working as hard . you'll probably notice this more the louder you play the subs being the duals will have to work that much harder to keep up
I won't be upset in any way switching back to my duals, they are wonderful and the triples are BIG .... well I gues that is relavent right Rich (Mr dual 6x12's :thumb:) I am glad i built my duals using the 16 ohm version of the 12" servo woofers, it leavs me an upgrade path if I ever want to build the triples... build new cabines and buy 2 new drivers.
I wouldn't say that going tothe triples would be overkill for anyone, even in my 18' x 12' room they sound great, the OB servo subs just don't seem to overload the room. I am really anxious to hear them up at my buddy's place where they will be in much larger room
lokie
BOM... :scratch:
if i'm assuming right...
6 SW12 16FR's
2 A370PEQ amps
6 sheets no rez
2 sets (M/f) 4 pole spctron connectores
25' red / 25' white OCC solid 16 ga wire
2 sets floor spikes
I've got a cut list for both the duals & the triples I made up for the cabinets built using dados. I can post it if anyone is interested or feel free to PM
jay
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:duh:
I had to ask.
Hmm.. I could build a pair of single cabinets and add them to the mix... :icon_twisted:
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I estimate cost of materials only for a pair of triple 12s at $2,100, then add your time.
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:duh:
I had to ask.
Hmm.. I could build a pair of single cabinets and add them to the mix... :icon_twisted:
Yup, and I had to put the triples in my room for a couple days :duh: .... I took them out today and went back to the duals... a little more noticeble than I had originally thought. As I noted above, the accuracy, definition and musicality are very smilar, basically the same, between them, but the "weight" produced by the triples is more apparent than i thought.
007KLH, with everything i listed above, you're closer to $2300 I believe + cost of cabinet material/finishing etc
You'll be happy though :beer:
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Good job Jay. The triple 12" OB H-frames look great ! :thumb: I'm sure they must sound awesome.
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Hi, Jay.
Those look amazing - I imagine they sound amazing as well. They really dominate your room (or, perhaps, it's because of the different color?). You clearly are highly skilled!
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Hi, Jay.
Those look amazing - I imagine they sound amazing as well. They really dominate your room (or, perhaps, it's because of the different color?). You clearly are highly skilled!
Thanks Michael, Ron.
It's not just the color, although I'm sure that plays a part of it ! They do dominate the room but, they don't over power the room. They are impressive to listen to.
We moved them to their new home yesterday afternoon. Will be going up on the weekend to do some final setup , I'll try to remember to grab my camera and post a shot or two. Eventually they will have the grill frames wrapped in white cloth
jay
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So.. did you get any pictures? How did they sound in their 'new' home?
Steve
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So.. did you get any pictures? How did they sound in their 'new' home?
Steve
Hey Steve
Sorry, I have not snapped any picutres yet... actually, Don has been traveling a lot lately (work) and I haven't had a chance to do much listening up at his place. I do need to get up there and spend some time listening to some cables, I think he is due back in town next weekend. I'll be sure to take my camera.
From the bit of listen thus far, they do sound great and I think we can dial them in a bit further yet. They are in a much larger room now and have no issues with output levels
jay
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Jay,
For your own use, Double or Triple? Was the improvement enough to motivate you to build a triple for yourself?
Or are you happy with the Double.
Steve
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Jay,
For your own use, Double or Triple? Was the improvement enough to motivate you to build a triple for yourself?
Or are you happy with the Double.
Steve
I'd say if you have the space, go with the triples. the foot print is the same but that extra driver makes them look much bigger. Basically it is only the difference of 2 drivers, 2 shets of no res and some extra MDf.
The duals sound just as good as the triples but, the triples just carry more weight and you feel everything more. even at low listening levels. At higher SPL's you'll get cleaner ,more accurate and detailed bass as those 3 drives will not be working as hard as 2 to reach the volume.
I had a fellow come by yesterday who brought his PMC TB2i Signatures to try with the duals and the prototype Dodd-Richie 10wpc amp. I think he knew the subs would make a difference, but he was astonished at just how much of a difference. I didn't even really spend a whole lot of time dialing the subs in with his speakers as it was a pretty quick demo but the transformation was amazing. When you turn the subs off while listening, a portion of the presentation just disappears, and it is not a samll portion, it is significant. The subs really do create a foundation and create a real presence. Once you have it, it's hard to go without
Will I move to triples ? Well, that's yet to be determined If someone local wanted my duals, I'd definitely consider it but I'm not sure I'd be happy with how dominant the triples appear in my room. If the room were a few feet wider, I'd do it without question
Hope that helps a bit
jay
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Jay,
Do you have the 8 Ohm or 16 Ohm drivers in your duals?
Mike
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I went with the 16 ohm version. It was just prior to the 8's being released and I didn't see the point in waiting... the 16's leave a path to upgrade to triples if one wanted to add a couple more drivers instead of stating over.... that is still an option for me
jay
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That's what I thought. You're almost there for trikes if you want the.
I went with the 8 Ohm drivers for the Wedges I'm building. I'll get the most out of the Wedges but no upgrade path without spending a bunch of money.
Mike
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That's what I thought. You're almost there for trikes if you want the.
I went with the 8 Ohm drivers for the Wedges I'm building. I'll get the most out of the Wedges but no upgrade path without spending a bunch of money.
Mike
Well, it makes sense but , I'm not sure that had you gone with the 16 ohm versions you'd have been pushing the A370's to the limit. You'll get more out of the A370's by creating a slightly less than 4 ohm load, not sure you'd actually need the extra though. OTOH, if you know there is never going to be an upgrade, then why not right ?
jay
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You're right, two 16's wouldn't give a 4 Ohm load but two 8's will.
And correct, since these are stands for the Wedgies I can't add a third 12" driver anyhow.
Since the OB7 and NX-Otica are floorstanders in their own right, if adding a servo H-Frame to the mix, three drivers don't take any more floor space than two.
You know you don't really have to get rid of your doubles, just build a single and bolt it on top like Ruben did for Rich :D
Mike
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I'd say if you have the space, go with the triples. the foot print is the same but that extra driver makes them look much bigger. Basically it is only the difference of 2 drivers, 2 shets of no res and some extra MDf.
The duals sound just as good as the triples but, the triples just carry more weight and you feel everything more. even at low listening levels. At higher SPL's you'll get cleaner ,more accurate and detailed bass as those 3 drives will not be working as hard as 2 to reach the volume.
Hope that helps a bit
jay
Jay,
Thanks that helped. I decided to go with the Triples. I'm building the cabinets now and have the electronics on order.
Can't wait.
Steve
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You're right, two 16's wouldn't give a 4 Ohm load but two 8's will.
And correct, since these are stands for the Wedgies I can't add a third 12" driver anyhow.
Since the OB7 and NX-Otica are floorstanders in their own right, if adding a servo H-Frame to the mix, three drivers don't take any more floor space than two.
You know you don't really have to get rid of your doubles, just build a single and bolt it on top like Ruben did for Rich :D
Mike
Right Mike, the double H-frame anyway. If one wanted to add a third woofer a side, however, the two 8ohm's would need to be replaced with 16ohm's. Two 8ohm and one 16ohm on the same A370 amp won't work (the combined impedances of those three drivers would be too far below 4ohms). It needs to be either two 8ohm woofers, or three 16ohm (or merely two, but then as you said that would be giving up a little of the A370's power, as it is optimized for a 4ohm load).
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Right Mike, the double H-frame anyway. If one wanted to add a third woofer a side, however, the two 8ohm's would need to be replaced with 16ohm's. Two 8ohm and one 16ohm on the same A370 amp won't work (the combined impedances of those three drivers would be too far below 4ohms). It needs to be either two 8ohm woofers, or three 16ohm (or merely two, but then as you said that would be giving up a little of the A370's power, as it is optimized for a 4ohm load).
In Jay's case, as I understand it, he is using 16 Ohm drivers in his dual H-Frames so he would only need to add two more 16 Ohm drivers (one per side) to go to a triple H-Frame.
I'm the one who cannot just add two more drivers since I am using four 8 Ohm drivers. I would need to buy six of the 16 Ohm drivers if I wanted to go to triples.
But then I am not using an H-Frame. I have built Wedge bases for the dual 8 Ohm 12" drivers and triples would make them much too tall as bases for the Wedgies. Just got 'em wired up and playing last night. Once I get the plinths finished I'll start a thread for this build. What I will say here is ... Sweet!!
Mike
Mike
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Jay,
Thanks that helped. I decided to go with the Triples. I'm building the cabinets now and have the electronics on order.
Can't wait.
Steve
You'll be more than happy man :thumb:
Keep us all posted as you progress.... maybe a build thread ? (we all love them !)
jay
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In Jay's case, as I understand it, he is using 16 Ohm drivers in his dual H-Frames so he would only need to add two more 16 Ohm drivers (one per side) to go to a triple H-Frame.
I'm the one who cannot just add two more drivers since I am using four 8 Ohm drivers. I would need to buy six of the 16 Ohm drivers if I wanted to go to triples.
But then I am not using an H-Frame. I have built Wedge bases for the dual 8 Ohm 12" drivers and triples would make them much too tall as bases for the Wedgies. Just got 'em wired up and playing last night. Once I get the plinths finished I'll start a thread for this build. What I will say here is ... Sweet!!
Mike
Mike
Ah yes Mike, NOW I have it right! I went with the 8ohm myself, as a pair in shorter frames allows me to lay them on their sides and use them as a base for my Quad ESL speakers. A 3-woofer frame would be too long for that. I have a pair of the W-frames that were made as a flat pack by Elemental Design, who are now out of business. I have been planning on getting a pair of the great H-frame flat packs Ruben makes, but it looks like he's having trouble right now. Hope all is well Ruben!
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FINALLY remembered :lol:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=133754)
Spent some time up there yesterday and got these really dialied in.... wow :o
jay
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FINALLY remembered :lol:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=133754)
Spent some time up there yesterday and got these really dialied in.... wow :o
jay
Any tips on dialing them in? I feel like mine could be better.
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Any tips on dialing them in? I feel like mine could be better.
Well, with these ones we were having an issue with the bass being just a litle "soft". Don's Piega's play down very low, I was thining we were getting a lot of overlap "smearing" the bass. The Piega's actually have a bass managment/c/o setting so we set it to high. After lots of fiddling and trials, I finally went with the EXT/12 db/oct slope setting on the A370's (still want to try one more time with the 50/24db and set the dail to about 30 but that will have to wait until after the holidays). We've got them crossed pretty low, I think about 35 - 40hz. Once we had it close, i just played with the phase until we got the best definition we could. We've got the dampening set ot Med, rumble filter off, PEQ off (no mic) and extension to 14.
After spending a couploe hours with them, there is no transition, it is a seamless integration and they pound !!
Got an email from Don a litle while ago saying " Man those subs were rockin' !"
Rember, like Danny has posted numerous times, there are no "right" setting, youi've just got to spend osme time tinkering to seewhat works best in your room with your gear
One more thing we did for setting the intial phase was to only have one sub on at a time and no main amp. Played a 30hz test tone continuously and rotated the phase adjument until we felt we had the most spl. Repeated that for the other channel. After that, I just made mino adjustments gauging with our ears until it was as clean and tight as possible. Forgot to add this ealier... we did this at my place as well..... started hearing this fast bang bang bang .... thought the wall was resonating and making the noise but it turned out to be the windows I'm sure if I had kept it up, the glass would have broken. !!! One note is fine, but a continuous tone, be careful.
Oh, and don't forget to use the spikes ... right Don? (after all that, I think we forgotto add them ) :lol:
HTH's a little
jay
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Oh, and don't forget to use the spikes ... right Don? (after all that, I think we forgotto add them ) :lol:
HTH's a little
jay
Thanks.
I still prefer these to spikes. (I've since swapped the NHT's for X-LS Encores)
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss207/corndog642/OB%20Subwoofer/1018E5AE-E1BC-4E9C-9F5B-D0970797DC54_zpssicwta5n.jpg)
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Thanks.
I still prefer these to spikes. (I've since swapped the NHT's for X-LS Encores)
(http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss207/corndog642/OB%20Subwoofer/1018E5AE-E1BC-4E9C-9F5B-D0970797DC54_zpssicwta5n.jpg)
Isaostands right ? I contacted them (being I'm in Canada) and was hoping to try a pair but they sent me to a Cdn retailer who wanted insane amounts of $$. Until I try them, i don't see how they can help, to me they will result in less definitin and clarity in the bass but like I said, I haven't tried them.
jay
jay
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With my X-Statiks, X-Omnis, X-SLS, and X-LS speakers I've found them to be a must-have. They dramatically improve the midrange clarity and tighten bass response. Did you know Dynaudio included them with some of their smaller speakers?
The custom cut modular ones I got for the OB subs were less dramatic at first. It's hard to A/B them simply due to the weight and bulk of the sub cabinets. Eventually I found they do an excellent job of decoupling the subs from the floor. Without the isoacoustic stands the subs directly transmitted vibrations to the floor. Adding the stands eliminated the floor vibration unless I really push them hard but by then the whole room is being pressurized. (Living in an apartment building I almost never push them that hard and thankfully I rarely need to.)
The modular stands weren't as cheap as their smaller ones for sure but I feel like they were a worthy investment. The regular stands they sell are a bargain for the improvements they bring!
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IMO the best subwoofers on our planet. Period.
charles
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IMO the best subwoofers on our planet. Period.
charles
It's SO nice to have like-minded people with which to communicate! For use in a music system, in a large but not-enormous room, and at loud but not eardrum-shattering SPL, yours is a reasonable and defendable opinion. When I started looking for a sub with which to augment my dipole/planar loudspeakers, I had to wade through all the sites of the hardcore bassheads---the guys using 4000w pro amps and 18" drivers in very lightly-braced enclosures. That crowd holds sub shoot-outs, where mostly soundtrack sound effects (and mostly death metal type music) are played at such high SPL that the participants must wear hearing protection. And with their ears stuffed, they then make critical evaluations of the sound of the subs! The participants comments made it obvious to me that they were listening for far different qualities in a sub than was I. When I eventually discovered Danny Richie and GR Research, I knew I had found my brotherhood. The OB/Dipole sub should imo be mated with every planar speaker in existence!
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The custom cut modular ones I got for the OB subs were less dramatic at first.
corndog71,
How would I order the correct isoacoustic stands for the OB subs? Did they give you a part number.
How much did they each cost?
TIA,
Steve
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corndog71,
How would I order the correct isoacoustic stands for the OB subs? Did they give you a part number.
How much did they each cost?
TIA,
Steve
There's a calculator on their website. I found it to be a little tedious but that's what you get when dealing with an engineer. I basically gave them my width, depth, and weight. The modular stands can hold more weight than their lower cost versions. All of their stands are designed to compensate for the back and forth motion of the drivers. I paid roughly $146 each but that was with a discount due to ordering them at last year's Axpona show.
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There's a calculator on their website. I found it to be a little tedious but that's what you get when dealing with an engineer. I basically gave them my width, depth, and weight. The modular stands can hold more weight than their lower cost versions. All of their stands are designed to compensate for the back and forth motion of the drivers. I paid roughly $146 each but that was with a discount due to ordering them at last year's Axpona show.
I am still on the fence about those things. I think they can be very effective but do go for the advertising. If they moved back and forth with the motion of the drivers then they would take away output. I think they would tend to damp out high frequency vibration but they are not capable of moving fast enough to damp out lower wavelengths. So their claim of isolating or de-coupling is likely more frequency dependent. At the same time they are also coupling the speaker to the floor.
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Danny just ordered the HX800 amps for my two 6x12" servo arrays.
Hope to see them soon to give them a try with the first step in building up the full array. :D
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Danny just ordered the HX800 amps for my two 6x12" servo arrays.
Hope to see them soon to give them a try with the first step in building up the full array. :D
Hal, I was wondering how this was going and if you received all of the boxes from Ruben?
Can't wait to here what you think of them and see them finished!
Greg
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Hal, I was wondering how this was going and if you received all of the boxes from Ruben?
Can't wait to here what you think of them and see them finished!
Greg
Ditto !
Did you ever decide on paint Rich ? I've got another pair of cabinets almost ready to go to paint and I think we're going to use the same water based paint used above, just a different painter
jay
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It's SO nice to have like-minded people with which to communicate! For use in a music system, in a large but not-enormous room, and at loud but not eardrum-shattering SPL, yours is a reasonable and defendable opinion. When I started looking for a sub with which to augment my dipole/planar loudspeakers, I had to wade through all the sites of the hardcore bassheads---the guys using 4000w pro amps and 18" drivers in very lightly-braced enclosures. That crowd holds sub shoot-outs, where mostly soundtrack sound effects (and mostly death metal type music) are played at such high SPL that the participants must wear hearing protection. And with their ears stuffed, they then make critical evaluations of the sound of the subs! The participants comments made it obvious to me that they were listening for far different qualities in a sub than was I. When I eventually discovered Danny Richie and GR Research, I knew I had found my brotherhood. The OB/Dipole sub should imo be mated with every planar speaker in existence!
Agree 100%. It is so hard to listen to a driver in a box now.
charles
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Got my flat packs from Ruben last year and got them all glued up. Have been using 4 of them for the OB speaker with the NEO3/NEO10 upper section. Was using my A370PEQ servo amps, but had to get the HX800's to go to the full arrays.
I have not gotten them painted, but did check with Ruben and water based paint finish is ok for the MDF he used. I have to get back to the auto paint company to see if they are able to do them. If not, will be looking for a local wood working company instead. Still thinking either Ferrari Red or Ford GT Blue with stripes.
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Hal, Here is an image of my powder room sink I made from good 1" MDF about 20 years ago. I used a HVLP to shoot on a coat of thick filler primer, sanded it smooth and then shot on a Ferrari Red car paint for the finish. It has held up very well considering it's MDF and is a sink counter. :scratch:No matter which way I turn the image before downloading it, it turns upside down, don't know how to fix it here, Sorry.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=134889)
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Looks good to me even upside down.
Let me try.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=134890)
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Looks good to me even upside down.
Let me try.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=134890)
Thanks Hal, that was driving me crazy. The color is a bit off but at the time it was called Ferrari Red and it's a very nice Red. I'm not imagining blue with with white stripes, would these be wide stripes or pin stripes? What ever color you paint them they are going to sounded amazing I'm sure. The bass on my Super V's sounds great and that's only 4 drivers.
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Thanks Hal, that was driving me crazy. The color is a bit off but at the time it was called Ferrari Red and it's a very nice Red. I'm not imagining blue with with white stripes, would these be wide stripes or pin stripes? What ever color you paint them they are going to sounded amazing I'm sure. The bass on my Super V's sounds great and that's only 4 drivers.
I picture this
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZyOju5fx25c/VcuPKw1j7KI/AAAAAAAA3_c/aGCK9iNROr8/s1600/2016-Ford-Mustang-Shelby-GT350-2.jpg)
Maybe on the sides from lower front to upper rear ?
Guess you could go over the top (literally) with them but the only place they'd be seen is on the fron of the top and front of base.... would probably look pretty cool though
jay
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This one:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=134895)
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ahh, figured you were just after the color and then going with the typical Shelby sttipes.
Might look really cool if you can figure out a way to implement it on a tall/shallow cabinet
jay
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This one:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=134895)
Now I see where you are coming from, I was thinking what jay was and I just couldn't see fat stripes on those sub towers. Stripes with some style could work very nicely :thumb:
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IMO the best subwoofers on our planet. Period.
charles
It could be the best, but it's also hard to incorporate into the decor of a room, especially for most people. I've always been a fan of multiple subs, placed throughout a room, and in that kind of scenario, I think for normal rooms (constrained by people using them and with women and children), you'd have the opportunity to place one open baffle sub, and that only if you can work it into the decor.
I do think that many people are looking for "boom" in a sub. It takes a while of living with a well designed sub system, especially for music, to hear the effect. Subs should be subtle but there. They should integrate well with the mains. If that happens, the bass won't be boomy at all and in fact will be subdued (for lack of a better word). Contrast that with movies, where you want the sub to be "hot", usually by 3dB or so. If you get used to that boominess, then you'll find a properly calibrated set of subs to be less than desirable.
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It could be the best, but it's also hard to incorporate into the decor of a room, especially for most people. I've always been a fan of multiple subs, placed throughout a room, and in that kind of scenario, I think for normal rooms (constrained by people using them and with women and children), you'd have the opportunity to place one open baffle sub, and that only if you can work it into the decor.
I do think that many people are looking for "boom" in a sub. It takes a while of living with a well designed sub system, especially for music, to hear the effect. Subs should be subtle but there. They should integrate well with the mains. If that happens, the bass won't be boomy at all and in fact will be subdued (for lack of a better word). Contrast that with movies, where you want the sub to be "hot", usually by 3dB or so. If you get used to that boominess, then you'll find a properly calibrated set of subs to be less than desirable.
All very true. The OB/Dipole sub is not for everyone, nor every application, system, and/or room. It is for the listener who has cultivated a certain level of sophistication in his appreciation of the reproduction of music, and for whom most subs are simply unacceptable. Hopefully that doesn't come off sounding elitist and smug!
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If one can fit them in [ 2 drivers per side ] there is no turning back. Even one would be better than a box.
charles
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The two Rythmik Audio HX800XLR3 amps arrived today.
Letting them warm up after the cold soak of the travel and will start wiring them tomorrow. Going to put them in the boxes from the A370PEQ's from the Super-V's for the servo woofer columns. Have an idea of how to minimize the wiring length to try.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=135484)
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Must feel like Christmas eve when you were a kid Rich !
Heck, I'm on the other side of the continent and i'm excited :lol:
jay
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Jay,
Yep! :D
Just got them in the wood frame boxes from the A370PEQ amps. Wiring tomorrow!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=135503)
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Jay,
Yep! :D
Just got them in the wood frame boxes from the A370PEQ amps. Wiring tomorrow!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=135503)
Those are interesting boxes. Any chance of a couple more pics and details?
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They were built for Danny IIRC in 2009 for the pair of Super-V's I have. The Rythmik Audio A370PEQ and HX800XLR3 are the same dimension plate amp faces for the opening to mount. The HX800 is deeper, but the case was deeper to start with.
Will take a few more pictures and post, but I have no measurements for them.
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More servo amp box pics:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=135563)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=135564)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=135565)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=135566)
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The HX800XLR3 servo amps are wired and running.
Since I am testing balanced input amp designs, decided to put the X-LS speakers on top of the 2x12" for listening trials. The amps need turn-on relays to protect the planar drivers. There are turn-on and turn-off thumps connected without the protection circuit.
They sound really good this way!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=135579)
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The HX800XLR3 servo amps are wired and running.
Since I am testing balanced input amp designs, decided to put the X-LS speakers on top of the 2x12" for listening trials. The amps need turn-on relays to protect the planar drivers. There are turn-on and turn-off thumps connected without the protection circuit.
They sound really good this way!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=135579)
HAL,
You are having way too much fun right now, I'm pretty sure that's illegal in some U.S. States. Can't wait to hear your impressions when you get them all hooked up!
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gregfisk,
The HX800 amps connected to the 2x12" H-Frames sounds very good! I have played everything from bass drums to pipe organs and as long as I do not go to crazy with level they handle the LF range better than any other subs I have tried.
Time to start working on the second set of 4 H-Frames with the 12" subs from the Super-V's. Have to pull them from the cabinets and reinstall in the 1x12 H-Frames.
All four of the ChipAmps are working and sounding very good as well. Need the speaker protection circuit before connecting them to the BG drivers. Those should come next week depending on the weather. By then, hope to have the subs installed and wired to the amps.
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Has anyone built a pair of OB subs to go with Eminent Technology LFT-8b speakers? Thinking about a pair of triples to go with my ET LFT-8b's. Room size about 12'X20'.
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Has anyone built a pair of OB subs to go with Eminent Technology LFT-8b speakers? Thinking about a pair of triples to go with my ET LFT-8b's. Room size about 12'X20'.
The flexibility of the servo subs make them pretty easy to cross over to and blend well with anything.
I wonder how low the panels can play in those speakers? If they can play down low enough then it might be possible to cross them straight to the servo subs and omit the lower boxed woofer.
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The flexibility of the servo subs make them pretty easy to cross over to and blend well with anything.
I wonder how low the panels can play in those speakers? If they can play down low enough then it might be possible to cross them straight to the servo subs and omit the lower boxed woofer.
From the Dagogo review - "The frequency range of the drivers is: woofer 25 – 180 Hz, mid panel 180 Hz – 10 kHz, and tweeter 10 kHz up."
Seems like you could just bypass the woofer entirely and use the (much, much, much) better OB Servo bass to mate with the mid panels directly. IME box bass is best avoided, especially if the rest of your speaker is OB. Just matching the radiation patterns between bass and mids/highs ALONE will improve the sound tremendously.
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I like your ideas! And a very easy option to test out since the ET’s have dual binding posts. I’ve upgraded the crossover parts which was dramatic but bypassing the woofer altogether will definitely be something to try.
Thanks!
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I've actually been there and done this with these speakers.
If you're plan is to go OB on the woofers, I would suggest bypassing the sealed woofer at the bottom of the ET's completely, because it kind of sticks out integration-wise if it is left playing. Keep in mind the planars and the subs will become a little pickier with room placement, even tweeters in versus tweeters out will make a noticeable difference, and I even played with a little tilt back on the planars with good results.
If you want to leave the ET's sealed woofer in play, I know I'm probably going to be the dissenting opinion around here but I would actually recommend a pair of sealed box servo subs, crossed a little lower than going straight from the planar driver to the subs rather than going OB; the ET's sealed woofer was barely playing, but it helped make the handshake between the planars and the subs smoother, as the planars really have a rock bottom of about 180Hz that very sharply drops off at the end where the sealed woofers built in to the speaker made a nice smooth hand off to the subs at that point, and the subs really took on a role that was foundational rather than fundamental to the overall speaker.
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Completely makes sense. Both options. And excellent info to think about.
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If not using the internal woofer of the ET’s I’m wondering if OB subs can handle (well) covering from 180Hz on down?
You’re thoughts on using a pair of F12’s to just bring in the bottom end of the ET’s we’re my original thought. If a pair of triples would cover from 180Hz down then this sounds like the best way to go.
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If not using the internal woofer of the ET’s I’m wondering if OB subs can handle (well) covering from 180Hz on down?
You’re thoughts on using a pair of F12’s to just bring in the bottom end of the ET’s we’re my original thought. If a pair of triples would cover from 180Hz down then this sounds like the best way to go.
I'm running mine up to 200hz with my Super 7 speakers, works great.
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If not using the internal woofer of the ET’s I’m wondering if OB subs can handle (well) covering from 180Hz on down?
Easily.
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If not using the internal woofer of the ET’s I’m wondering if OB subs can handle (well) covering from 180Hz on down?
You’re thoughts on using a pair of F12’s to just bring in the bottom end of the ET’s we’re my original thought. If a pair of triples would cover from 180Hz down then this sounds like the best way to go.
As Tyson mentioned, no issues from 200 and down. Numerous of Danny's designs have used them in this situation (Serenity Acoustics Line force / Super 7's, NX Otica MTM, Wedgie, Super v's, V1's) :thumb:
jay
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Thanks everyone!
I had initially been looking at a pair of the F12 Rythmik subs to go with the ET LFT-8b’s. I’ve always loved electrostatic and ribbon speakers and only played slightly years ago with any OB speakers. Have had Quad’s, etc. I’m a tech for a high end tube mfr. and have built a custom all-out tube preamp and pair of 125W tube mono-block amps w/separate giant PS’s to drive the ET’s. Of course I’m your typical champagne taste on a beer budget guy but was able to put together a dedicated stereo room. MY wife calls this my “Drug Room” because she swares my descriptions of listening to music sounds like I’m on on a trip. Oh wel! The F12’s seemed like the best bang for the buck but then a few months back started investigating the OB dual subs. Kept wondering if they would have the punch and authority I was looking for. It sounds like they probably do but of course once I read up on the triples it sounds like they should more then satisfy me. Just had not been able to find anyone around me with OB subs to listen to. I think these forums have convinced me enough to go ahead and order the parts to start the build though.
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I was looking for. It sounds like they probably do but of course once I read up on the triples it sounds like they should more then satisfy me. Just had not been able to find anyone around me with OB subs to listen to. I think these forums have convinced me enough to go ahead and order the parts to start the build though.
Where are you located ?
jay
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Where are you located ?
jay
Near Raleigh, NC.
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If not using the internal woofer of the ET’s I’m wondering if OB subs can handle (well) covering from 180Hz on down?
You’re thoughts on using a pair of F12’s to just bring in the bottom end of the ET’s we’re my original thought. If a pair of triples would cover from 180Hz down then this sounds like the best way to go.
A quad in OB (two per side) worked just fine when I did it (take the ET woofers out of the chain completely). IF I had triples at the time, I would have used them.
In my case, I ended up leaving the ET woofers in and using the sealed subs because the amp I had at the time didn't like playing as nicely with the load the mid/tweeter circuit of the ETs alone versus when the woofer was back in the circuit, and I was also doing double duty with the speakers for home theater in a medium-smaller room, so I needed the subs to pressurize the room for action movies occasionally. How the room is loaded (or not) aside, for music, and playing that far up (200Hz-ish) rather than crossing down at 80Hz-ish, the OB subs were clearly better, and did change the lower midrange of the speaker a bit in character; I'm not even going to try to articulate much past that because it was a very long time ago and I can't reliably remember enough to make a good showing of describing it.
I'm pretty confident that not only will you be very happy with the OB triples, I wouldn't be afraid to put money down that the subs will outlast your speakers as you continue on in the hobby if you change your system later over time; they really are that good.
One more thing - when you put the OB subs in place, if you can, high pass the signal going to the mid/tweeter amps so that they don't get any of the low frequency signal (I crossed them over with different points between 60Hz and 120Hz when I was messing around tuning the system I had). Even with only the mid/tweeter circuit running where the mid driver is only playing down to 180Hz, offloading the lows from the mid/tweet section really made a difference for the better when I did it; the change wasn't night and day, but wasn't subtle either.
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Near Raleigh, NC.
I can hook you up with someone who's running a set of OB triples / NX-Oticas if you likie. Shoot me a PM if you're interested
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It would be nice if the triples could improve the lower midrange that I get from the ET’s. I’m hoping for a little fuller body and more textures on the lower end of vocals without causing bloat and of course a more robust attack on drums on down. And like you say, eventually I may end up with other speakers.
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New member and new to the audiophile world. Also have ET LFT 8bs and considering the the triple H frame OB subs. Just checking in to see if there are any updates.
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New member and new to the audiophile world. Also have ET LFT 8bs and considering the the triple H frame OB subs. Just checking in to see if there are any updates.
You can order the kits here: http://gr-research.com/servosubkit5.aspx
And I am pretty sure that jay can cut you some flat packs.
I know they will integrate better with those panels than the lower woofer that comes with them.
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Yup, need a bit of lead time but here you go:
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=139480.0
jay
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Thank you Danny and Jay,
I am afraid that I don't have the time nor the skill to build these. Do you know anyone that would build and sell a turn key pair of two-way and amps or three-way and amps? My room is about 5000 cubic feet. Recommendation of two-way vs. three-way? They would also need to be shipped to Davis (95618), CA near Sacramento.
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We have sent out finished cabinets in the past but they are big and heavy. If you want to talk , shoot me a PM
There are some pics in the flat pack thread I posted above of some of our finished cabinets..... that pair of Midnight Purple triples might b for sale at a good price......
jay
This pair which actually look gloss black a lot of the time unless the sun/or bright light is directly o them..... at that point, the paint turns into a dark, metallic purple (see Nissan Infinity). There are a set of front grill frames and matching amp boxes
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=145217)
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=168957)
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Hi Jay. Those are beautiful! Sent a PM
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Hi Jay. Those are beautiful! Sent a PM
Yup, got your PM, let me reply in the am.. been a bit of a long eve here....
jay