AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Owner's Circles => Virtue Audio Owners => Topic started by: virtue on 21 May 2014, 05:19 am
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Guys,
This whole situation flusters me a bit because I'm such a no-voodoo guy.
Today I went to visit Alex Yoon at his factory in downtown Los Angeles. It's on a little street where at least 30 unfortunate homeless folks have set up residence. Inside, it's obvious that a mad scientist is at work.
Here's Alex himself avoiding photographs. He's shy.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99707)
Here's his home theater rig, in the back of the office.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99706)
Here's his wave guide contraption. Looks like "Batman" right?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99708)
Here's the explanation, which sounds to me that he's creating a tunnel to the listener. Whatever it is, it's working for me.
http://www.wavetouchaudio.com/tech.html
Here's the damn pair of speakers (Grand Tetons, Piano lacquer) in my house after I bought them.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=99709)
The Tannoys will be going back to Amazon. To quote Roger Sheker, they're "dog shit" compared with Alex's Grand Tetons (aka, Batman).
If you're wondering how they compare to Audience THE ONE... it's hard to compare. Alex and I both agree that THE ONE is one of the best speakers ever made for the vocal range. They're unbelievable. In a larger room where you want more juice and if you like -- as I do -- the AMT sparkle, I'd prefer the Grand Tetons. For close listening and off-axis, THE ONE is the champ.
Speaker stands are coming tomorrow. Wife is away and doesn't know that the living room has been taken over. My resolve will be tested.
So here's the deal. Alex has agreed to send a scuffed and dented/punctured (whatever) pair on tour.
Who's in?
Seth
PS - he has a couple pairs up on Audiogon. The birch ones are really special in person. Awesome craftsmanship not withstanding the strange holes in back.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/monitors-factory-defective-grand-teton-speaker-wavetouch-audio-the-most-beautiful-sounding-s-2014-05-15-speakers-90015-los-angeles-ca
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http://www.creative.com/products/speakers/tech/?id=81436 kinda same concept except his device isn't attached to the speaker.
ah well... I'd have to hear it first. :) Interesting tho.
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Can't resist. I just ordered a pair. :o
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Chris - that's awesome. These things are very cool (if a bit strange).
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Just got off the phone with Alex and paid for speakers. What a nice guy! It was a pleasure to speak with him and hear his passion for his product. Can't wait to get these in the music room. :D
I don't mind the strangeness, in fact, I think it adds to the cool factor. 8)
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Can you give us a better description of how the speakers sound?
Put me on the list for the listening tour.....
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We'll make you first on tour. Please send me a PM and send $40 for shipping to paypal: "listening@virtueaudio.com"
What I'm hearing is tons of detail and plenty of volume (92 db sensitivity), even without a sub. Imaging is huge and there is literally no distortion or muddiness in the upper ranges. Mid-bass is incredibly satisfying. Jury is out on vocals (around the cross-over point) but it's not bothering me.
Alex's sound profile is "soft" although I'm hearing something exciting. A bit reminiscent of Zu Audio. The Tannoy's sound really laid back and muddy by comparison, although perhaps a bit fuller in the bass due to more surface area. But I'm not missing bass in the Wave Touch. It's very much an "oh, yeah" kind of presence.
They're super directional obviously. When you're standing over them they sound like a clock radio.
It sounds more "live" than anything I've heard in a very long time.
This is with the ONE.3 with a presently disconnected sub.
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Any other WaveTouch listeners out there yet?
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Phase plugs have been around the extended range driver camp for years, but Alex's explanation would have us believe that his device turns a cone into a horn and produces a laminar wave flow. I don't know what to think of it, but goes counter to the controlled directivity camp that uses wave guides to the opposite effect. Still looks like a mad scientist contraption, so I'll wait for the next generation (and hopefully a more refined/finished product).
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Danny Richie would know.
I think he's selling the MDF speaker for $1,000. It's really a hug step-up from my $600 and up speakers.
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The tour has begun!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100846)
Andrew first. Post impressions here!
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They're super directional obviously.
So an extremely small sweet spot? Like, head-in-a-vice size?
My SET tube amps have only one output tap, so not a choice between 8 and 4 ohms. Would these work OK for me (his web site specifies 4-ohm)?
(92 db sensitivity)
His web site specifies 94 db. Did you measure differently, or is your spec a typo?
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Hi Gentlemen,
I've just registered. I am happy to be here! Thank you for this thread!
Back to questions from Rockadanny,
Grand Teton speaker is 94 db. 92 db is typo.
One output tap is OK. I always connect 8 ohm tap even if there are 4 and 8 ohm taps. Grand Teton is 4 ohm thou.
Every speakers should have a very small sweet spot where is same distance from left and right speakers. If any speaker doesn't have that small sweet spot, the sound may be diffused and delayed in circuits like a church PA system or just not a good speaker. If a listener will not perceive the different distance with left and right speakers, those speakers are not for hi-end music reproduction.
Grand Teton has a pinpoint imaging. If one side speaker is moved ΒΌ inch, the listener hears clearly. Since Grand Teton has clear sound images, finding a sweet spot is easy and obvious. It's OK to seat outside of sweet spot with Grand Teton. There are plenty of musicality and sonic satisfaction outside of sweet spot. Just any listener (even non-audiophile) will know where the sweet spot is with Grand Tetons.
Many recording studios use speakers that are not capable. With diffused and unclear sound, the recording engineer won't make an accurate recording. Even the performer is not perfectly centered in many recordings. Grand Teton is a super detailed and revealing speaker that I can hear flaws in recordings. It's fun to find out something others can't hear. I have few emails from pro-sound engineers and it's good that more recording studios will use Grand Tetons for their work.
Grand Teton is all about mid-range purity, transparent sound stage (no headache), no listener fatigue, musicality, etc.
Alex
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Grand Teton's sound is very open and realistic that one doesn't have to be in a sweet spot to enjoy music.
Alex
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I'm signed up for the tour. I've been looking at them for awhile, and there is only one way to sort out the talk from the walk.
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Keep us informed, Jon.
As you know, headphone are fairly directional ;-)
I think these are similar.
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As you know, headphone are fairly directional ;)
I think these are similar.
With headphones you can move your head 1/4" or 4 feet and the sound doesn't change.
Steve
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Sounds like these are great speakers, anything else sucks :roll: :lol:
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Thank you Alex for the informative reply. :thumb:
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How do you sign up for tour?
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Send me a PM to sign up. I'll ask you to pay-pal shipping fees before it's your turn. Currently we have 2 more in queue before you.
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Here's some candid feedback from one of the initial tour members:
I like them alright. My only issue is with the treble, too much for me. Not shrill but too much. I feel like the woofer can't keep up. But, I'll chalk that up to personnel preference and builder voicing choices.
Good feedback!
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Everyone has a different taste in an audio sound. I guess that there is no perfect sounding speaker for everyone. I remember when I bought Avalon Eclipse about 10 years ago, I was deeply disappointed when the sound was soft and too warm. I tried to break it in for days and weeks just hoping for improvement. Removing the grille didn't help. I knew already then it wouldn't going to be better. Simply, there is no potential. We can tame what is too much. We can't make what is not even exist.
Some people have an extra sensitive ears with high frequency. To make perfect balance between high and low frequencies, the SPL of individual drivers on Grand Teton can be easily increase or decrease. To reduce SPL of tweeter, attach a larger supplied foam ball on the tip of center plug. This will not degrade the quality of the sound.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101782)
Most Grand Teton buyers are happy with the foam ball comes with GTs.
Thank you!
Alex/ http://www.wavetouchaudio.com/ (http://www.wavetouchaudio.com/)
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Had the great Donny D. over for Sunday brunch with his amazing kids. That guy can eat a pancake!
Of course, there was a 1 hour listening test during which time we learned that I'd blown out 2 pairs of speakers.
Donny could give more color. Here's my 2 cents:
Audience ONE - Best vocals most neutral
KEF Q300 - Crowd-pleaser, very balanced
Wave Touch Audio - Me and Donny liked these, with guilty pleasure. Led Zeppelin crushed.
Virtue MMtMM - Don's daughter's favorite
Seth
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Blew out my Tannoy 601P speakers. That should not have been possible... none-the-less.
Really having a great team with Golden Ear Aon2 speakers. They are detailed and extremely neutral. Probably the most revealing of the "laid-back" bookshelf speaker's I've tried.
But with batman back on my desk, I'm drawn to them. Tweeters on these things are just amazing. Hot, yes. Exciting, yes.
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"Blew out my Tannoy 601P speakers. That should not have been possible... none-the-less."
Well sir it's a good thing you have so many speakers .
Somehow I've yet to blow up anything and I've 'crushed' a few tunes.
What was the sens of those ex Tannoy's?
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Got the tour pair of Grand Teton GT gen 2 today. Right off the bat in my 10x12 office system, it is clear that these are very good small speakers. Tight, clear bass to below 50 hz., open, clear un-boxy mids, very detailed and clean highs. Really excellent imaging and overall excellent balance. Very fast and dynamic- they remind me of a good horn system, which they obviously resemble.
Highs are very extended and a touch strong in the near field. I suspect a bright system may find them too hot on top, but Alex supplies the means to reduce the top end, which I will experiment with. I'll try them in my larger systems/rooms in the next few days.
There is a lot of different thinking that has gone into these speakers which has brought out a lot of sniping from those who have not actually heard them. I applaud Alex for trying some new things here. I'll give a more detailed appraisal in a few days.
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Great little update, Jon.
There are a lot of dynamics going on with this speaker. Reminds me of Zu a bit.
I remember leaving a Zu listening session at Rocky Mountain a few years ago. I was totally fired up.
My friend, who's opinion I value, said something like ... "they suck."
Anyway, I stand by Zu as I do Wave Touch. Love 'em!
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OK. Here's my take on the Wavetouch Audio Grand Teton GT gen 2 speakers.
(http://www.wavetouchaudio.com/product/pix/side2.jpg)
Info here:
http://www.wavetouchaudio.com/G2.html (http://www.wavetouchaudio.com/G2.html)
This is a complicated speaker to cover simply. Just looking at these speakers gives you the idea that there are some very different elements at work here, but my first take on them suggested that these warranted a serious analysis.
As context, in the past decade I've owned nearly 3 dozen "quality" (meaning- list price from $1500 to $5000) standmount speakers (of my 250+ total), and I've heard many more. I've owned many more cheaper models as well. Among this quality group are PSB Platinum M2, Volent paragon VL-2, VMPS 626R, Totem Model 1 signature, Thiel PCS, Talon Khite, Spendor LS3/5a, Silverline SR11, Sequerra met 7.7 mk V, Selah Tempesta, Selah SSR, Selah RAAL/revelator monitor, Revel M20, Paradigm Active 20, Paradigm ref 40, Onix Ref 1 MK 2 ninja, Nohr 9.0 Mini w/ dennis murphy xover, Morel Renaissance, Monitor audio GR10, merlin tsm-m and MME, Joseph audio RM7si mkii, GMA Rio, Event opal studio monitor, Escalante juniper, Buggtussel Cingulate, Aerial Acoustics 5, ACI sapphire III, AAD silver 1, and AAD 2001.
FWIW, my fave 5 are, in order: Selah Tempesta (by a comfortable margin), Volent VL-2, Selah RAAL monitors, Event Opal, Merlin TSM-MME.
I have 3 systems- office, bedroom, and living room, and I usually try all my speakers in all 3 systems with the "losers" in these comparisons going on to new homes.
To begin with, the 13" tall cabinets of the GTs are very well constructed; stacked plywood makes for a very stiff structure; the resonance when struck is at quite a high frequency and obviously well damped. I think this contributes to the very open, clear lower mids and bass which they display. They remind me of the bamboo cabinets of the Ascend Sierra 1 (which I owned) in this respect.
The 5.5" woofer is of high quality construction, and the "AMT" planar tweeter is very similar to those showing up lately in a lot of speakers such as Martin-Logan, Adam, Emotiva and Evolution Acoustics. So- there is no doubt there are quality elements in these speakers.
To begin, I removed the "horns" from the woofer, to see what the basic speaker sounded like. It was very detailed in the highs, with decent midrange clarity, but a very thin and bright overall sound. An interesting sound, but not very listenable by my standards.
Attaching the woofer horn and center "guide" really changed the sound. The region from the lower mids through the bass got much stronger, now with very nice body and punch. Dynamics and midrange focus improved greatly. In my 10x12' office they sounded very nice. In comparison with my Selah RAAL monitors, which are currently my all time favorite speaker for that room, the highs were as detailed and clear as the RAAL, but stronger and not quite as smooth. The mids and bass were also quite good, with great instrumental separation, dynamics, width, and depth. Once again, the Selah was a bit better balanced throughout.
Next I moved them to my big system- the room is ~17x20, amp is a tweaked N-Core NC400, PRE/DAC is NAD M51. Everything in this system is carefully balanced around my Daedalus DA-RMA v2 speakers.
In direct comparison to the 5x the size and price Daedalus, the bass and midbass is much reduced, so a lot of the warmth is lost. However, the detail presentation, imaging and soundstaging is reasonably close, not as natural and well integrated, but impressive nonetheless. The high end is still 1-2 db. too strong for my taste, and there is a trace of "cupped hands" coloration in the mids, but only a trace.
So- sonically, we have a very fast, clean and open speaker, with good overall balance and great imaging, few annoying colorations, and good, solid bass in small to medium rooms. I do think the highs could be pulled back a bit more to improve the balance further, but the highs are detailed and clean otherwise.
UPDATE: Alex has informed me that he will pad the tweeter down a bit.
Alex supplies a variety of tweakes to adjust the sound of the speakers; I won't go into them but they can be good use to fit the sound to the needs of the user.
So- sonically, I do think these are competitive with most of the best speakers in my above list, and pretty close to cracking my top 5. That's pretty good for a new effort at this price.
Now- to the non-sonic aspects. I'm a bit troubled by the physical delicacy of the horns and guides assemblies that adds so much to the sound of this speaker. Paying $2k for a speaker is still a lot of $, and I like to think durability should be part of the package. I'd like to see Alex re-think the structural elements of the front assemblies with that in mind.
Again, I'd like to applaud Alex's creative thinking on display here. These are very good speakers for the $, and well worth a listen. I've enjoyed my time with them.
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Dear Jonbee,
Thank you very much for your honest and detailed review!
I take your advice. GTs' high frequency output will be lowered. It is a simple replacement of a part.
I appreciate for the feedback!
Alex/ Wavetouch Audio
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OK. Here's my take on the Wavetouch Audio Grand Teton GT gen 2 speakers.
(http://www.wavetouchaudio.com/product/pix/side2.jpg)
Info here:
http://www.wavetouchaudio.com/G2.html (http://www.wavetouchaudio.com/G2.html)
This is a complicated speaker to cover simply. Just looking at these speakers gives you the idea that there are some very different elements at work here, but my first take on them suggested that these warranted a serious analysis.
As context, in the past decade I've owned nearly 3 dozen "quality" (meaning- list price from $1500 to $5000) standmount speakers (of my 250+ total), and I've heard many more. I've owned many more cheaper models as well. Among this quality group are PSB Platinum M2, Volent paragon VL-2, VMPS 626R, Totem Model 1 signature, Thiel PCS, Talon Khite, Spendor LS3/5a, Silverline SR11, Sequerra met 7.7 mk V, Selah Tempesta, Selah SSR, Selah RAAL/revelator monitor, Revel M20, Paradigm Active 20, Paradigm ref 40, Onix Ref 1 MK 2 ninja, Nohr 9.0 Mini w/ dennis murphy xover, Morel Renaissance, Monitor audio GR10, merlin tsm-m and MME, Joseph audio RM7si mkii, GMA Rio, Event opal studio monitor, Escalante juniper, Buggtussel Cingulate, Aerial Acoustics 5, ACI sapphire III, AAD silver 1, and AAD 2001.
FWIW, my fave 5 are, in order: Selah Tempesta (by a comfortable margin), Volent VL-2, Selah RAAL monitors, Event Opal, Merlin TSM-MME.
I have 3 systems- office, bedroom, and living room, and I usually try all my speakers in all 3 systems with the "losers" in these comparisons going on to new homes.
To begin with, the 13" tall cabinets of the GTs are very well constructed; stacked plywood makes for a very stiff structure; the resonance when struck is at quite a high frequency and obviously well damped. I think this contributes to the very open, clear lower mids and bass which they display. They remind me of the bamboo cabinets of the Ascend Sierra 1 (which I owned) in this respect.
The 5.5" woofer is of high quality construction, and the "AMT" planar tweeter is very similar to those showing up lately in a lot of speakers such as Martin-Logan, Adam, Emotiva and Evolution Acoustics. So- there is no doubt there are quality elements in these speakers.
To begin, I removed the "horns" from the woofer, to see what the basic speaker sounded like. It was very detailed in the highs, with decent midrange clarity, but a very thin and bright overall sound. An interesting sound, but not very listenable by my standards.
Attaching the woofer horn and center "guide" really changed the sound. The region from the lower mids through the bass got much stronger, now with very nice body and punch. Dynamics and midrange focus improved greatly. In my 10x12' office they sounded very nice. In comparison with my Selah RAAL monitors, which are currently my all time favorite speaker for that room, the highs were as detailed and clear as the RAAL, but stronger and not quite as smooth. The mids and bass were also quite good, with great instrumental separation, dynamics, width, and depth. Once again, the Selah was a bit better balanced throughout.
Next I moved them to my big system- the room is ~17x20, amp is a tweaked N-Core NC400, PRE/DAC is NAD M51. Everything in this system is carefully balanced around my Daedalus DA-RMA v2 speakers.
In direct comparison to the 5x the size and price Daedalus, the bass and midbass is much reduced, so a lot of the warmth is lost. However, the detail presentation, imaging and soundstaging is reasonably close, not as natural and well integrated, but impressive nonetheless. The high end is still 1-2 db. too strong for my taste, and there is a trace of "cupped hands" coloration in the mids, but only a trace.
So- sonically, we have a very fast, clean and open speaker, with good overall balance and great imaging, few annoying colorations, and good, solid bass in small to medium rooms. I do think the highs could be pulled back a bit more to improve the balance further, but the highs are detailed and clean otherwise.
UPDATE: Alex has informed me that he will pad the tweeter down a bit.
Alex supplies a variety of tweakes to adjust the sound of the speakers; I won't go into them but they can be good use to fit the sound to the needs of the user.
So- sonically, I do think these are competitive with most of the best speakers in my above list, and pretty close to cracking my top 5. That's pretty good for a new effort at this price.
Now- to the non-sonic aspects. I'm a bit troubled by the physical delicacy of the horns and guides assemblies that adds so much to the sound of this speaker. Paying $2k for a speaker is still a lot of $, and I like to think durability should be part of the package. I'd like to see Alex re-think the structural elements of the front assemblies with that in mind.
Again, I'd like to applaud Alex's creative thinking on display here. These are very good speakers for the $, and well worth a listen. I've enjoyed my time with them.
Any thoughts of comparison to the SpTech MiniTimePiece Monitor?
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Sorry, I've not heard the SPTech.
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Please email me. Seth at virtue audio dot com
You'll need to pay for shipping one way and we need to see a certain number of posts on audio circle. Also USA only.