AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Critic's Circle (Equipment Reviews) => Cable Reviews => Topic started by: rlmacklin on 26 Jun 2007, 08:33 pm
-
:thumb:
I highly recommend the latest white techflex Grover S ICs.
Mine took ~ 50 hours for complete burn-in and reached maybe 90% after about 20 hours.
I am using them throughout my entire system (see bottom of post):
Compared to earlier Grover S (black or white), I hear new level of previously masked or hidden detail in the music and greater frequency extension in both lows and highs, particularly in the highs. These are quieter (cleaner, clearer), more detailed, smoother, and more open.
Definitely now at "reference" level in my system to my ears.
The latest white Grover S are now in the "whole nother league."
:drool:
(See posts on Audio Nervosa comparing earlier white Grover S to Stealth Indras and JPS Aluminatas, as well as to Straley Reality ICs, VenHaus Audio Pulsars, Speltz Anti-cables, etc.).
There is a 2nd "group buy" started for these current white Grover S interconnects over on Audio Nervosa forum. You may join the Audio Nervosa forum and order through their 2nd group buy to get up to a 30% discount over the normal pricing of $150 for a one-meter pair with RCAs. Pricing for other lengths and terminations are posted there.
I e-mailed to my friend George near Atlanta to alert him to get some of these. I then mailed him a pair of my white Grover S ICs to burn-in and audition.
----------------------------------------
George e-mailed:
Got em friday. I'm going to call you monday if thats ok,,first,,they are beautiful,,my ears are not as good as they used to be but,,,the grovers seem to be more refined,smoother,and the mids and highs are just simply amazing. I'm sold on them already. I'm going to get in on the group buy round two,,Thanks for helping me deplete my savings,,,you were right,,these cables are something else,,thanks again,,I forsee a big cable sale on Club Polk
Regards to all--george
----------------------------------------------
System:
front l/r: stock Denon 3910 > white Grover S ICs > Modwright SWL 9.0 Signature with Bendix 6900s and cryoed Philips metal base GZ34 NOS 1957 > white Grover S ICs > Odyssey Mono Extreme SE amps with Klaus's "special boards" > Grover S bi-wire speaker cables > Polk Audio SRS-2 speakers (with custom SDA cable made from Grover UR speaker cable)
center: stock Denon 3910 > white Grover S IC > Sunfire Symphonic Reference preamp > white Grover S IC > Odyssey HT-3 power amp with capacitance upgrades > Grover SR speaker cable > Polk Audio Csi-5 speaker
l/r surround: stock Denon 3910 > white Grover S ICs > PS Audio PCA-2 preamp > white Grover S ICs > Odyssey HT-3 power amp with capacitance upgrade > Grover UR speaker cables > Polk Audio Fxi-5 speakers
"
******************************************************************************
-
been pondering these for a few years, glad they continue to improve.
what RCAs is he using? :D
-
been pondering these for a few years, glad they continue to improve.
what RCAs is he using? :D
i believe they are silver plated switchcraft connectors.
-
rlmacklin,
I agree completely. Your description of Grover Huffman's new S cable is prefect. It is interesting that you specifically mention the HF improvement. While the HF spectrum is the most important to me for enjoyment, and I agree that this cable does it right, the lows have grabbed my attention. Not overblown bass, but realistic, full bass. Overall, they are completely natural and organic.
It does take 50 hours + to burn in these new cables (unlike the earlier Grovers, which took only about 20). At the price, these are the biggest bargain I have encountered and own.
Phil
-
where's the website link?
-
There isn't one (unfortunately). You can contact Grover at: groverhuffman@hotmail.com
-
For anyone interested, apparently the Audio Nervosa forum group buy coordinator for the the Grover S ICs is still accepting orders through today:
from page 3 of the "Grover Huffman Cables Group Buy - Round 2" thread in the Group Buy section on Audio Nervosa forum:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
richidoo
Administrator
Obsessively Audiophilic
Offline
Posts: 432
Re: Grover Huffman Cables Group Buy - Round 2
« Reply #33 on: Today at 06:03:54 AM » Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have finished processing the order. 27 cables so far! I am waiting on a couple questions and a couple more orders that were placed verbally to materialize. Meantime, any other last minute orders are welcome today only. Paypal only.
I will post the spreadsheet sometime today once I get a new login for FTP on the new server.
Thanks everybody who ordered!
Rich
-------------------------------------------------------
-
Sent mine back. Not sure what the hype is all about with these. It was over in less than 5 minutes for me.
-
Sent mine back. Not sure what the hype is all about with these. It was over in less than 5 minutes for me.
you know what's funny about these cables is when you first get them hook them up, they aren't anything real special. Ah, but leave them in your system and about 50 hours or so later, magic will come out of your speakers. These cables seem to just bring your system alive. So your haste was not to good. I've never heard a pair of cables do what these do.
Ray
-
Sent mine back. Not sure what the hype is all about with these. It was over in less than 5 minutes for me.
you know what's funny about these cables is when you first get them hook them up, they aren't anything real special. Ah, but leave them in your system and about 50 hours or so later, magic will come out of your speakers. These cables seem to just bring your system alive. So your haste was not to good. I've never heard a pair of cables do what these do.
Ray
Big Red has said this in another thread......
"I'm amazed at the number of educated fellows who refuse to believe their ears. It takes meonly seconds to note adiffeence in sound in a cable and then after a few minutes I can determine exactly what it is I am hearing based on response in the low-mid-high, soundstage details, etc."
-
Gosh, white the latest iteration? I have a pair of Grover S (black) and they sound great but needed quite a bit of breaking in. Grover does make some very $$$ affordable cables that can compete with more expensive cables.
-
I like Grover's cables and for $150 it's tough to beat them. They are fairly neutral and don't really 'color' the sound at all. If you want to mask system problems, these aren't the cables for you. I can understand why someone wouldn't like them but I can't understand how someone could dismiss them instantly given their cost.
It didn't take me long to realize these cables were a great value. I've heard a lot of cables and these are the first I'd recommend for anyone looking for sub-$200 IC's.
-Carl
-
A good cable and Grover is a gentleman all the way.
I had a similar experience with Anti IC's last week. They went in and came right out. Exceptional midrange detail but the rest of the ranges, top and bottom, were missing. I love their SC's and only just recently switched to Reality SC's. Another good company and exceptional value, but just did not work out for me.
-
A good cable and Grover is a gentleman all the way.
I would beg to differ (a LOT!) with the latter part of your comment, but the first part is an understatement IMO. I agree with those who say you should've given them more time.
My initial impression of the ICs was similar to yours, but they improved significantly after a week or so of burn-in. In some aspects it was difficult to tell them apart from my 'standard' IC (Stealth Cables Indra) during a second week A/B session, and that's more than a little impressive.
If you don't believe in burn-in, settling or whatever you want to call it, that's fine. After all, it's your money and your system, and I have nothing at stake either way. But if your approach is to make a decision after listening 5 minutes or less, you're going to miss out on some awfully good deals.
-Jim
-
If you don't believe in burn-in, settling or whatever you want to call it, that's fine. After all, it's your money and your system, and I have nothing at stake either way. But if your approach is to make a decision after listening 5 minutes or less, you're going to miss out on some awfully good deals.
-Jim
Here's my logic: if I have a cable in the system that I have come to like and the sound is ingrained in my brain for a few weeks now, then I can notice changes fairly well. Small changes are hard because you psych yourself into thinking you heard a difference. If I change out a cable and the difference is very obvious, let's say poorer performance, why in the world would I want to let it run for more time hoping it would improve? Makes no sense to me. If a cable sounds good right out of the box, then in the "theory" that cables "burn in" it can only get better from there, correct? There's no cable in my system right now that has more than 10 hours on it except the power cords. So in my mind all cables are on equal footing and no one cable has to catch up assuming there really is a thing called burn in.
Trust me, I'm not looking to send more than I need to, but I am finding there are some sweet designs out there that are definitely worth spending a little more on because my system deserves it.
I have made more progress in improving my sound in the last 2 weeks through tube rolling and now cable evaluations than any single component change could make. I'm very close to getting it right and a cable that needs time to come up to speed is not in the equation.
Maybe someday I'll purchase a new duplicate cable and compare it to the "burned in" cable to see if I hear a delta. That will be an experiment to do once I get bored with my upgraditis.
And there are several cables that have sounded beautiful right out of the box. I still have those, but I'm still looking as well because I know there is a little more I can get. And I hate this new keyboard, have to type everything twice!
-
I agree that Grover has been a gentleman in all my dealings with him. I'm glad to hear you got good service even with your refund, big red. BTW, I like your pic, I used to build RC boats, probably half of Dumas' kits back in their all-wood days. That was my first expensive hobby! I thought an $80 kit was the end of the world! Now it's 50k speakers. :duh: I think my brain is still half saturated with epoxy fumes from back then. hehe
I used copper anticables for a year, and both Paul Speltz and his wife are angels. I own every product they sell except silver ICs and they all work as described. Service is superior. Best value in speaker wire under $100. But there is a big world out there above $100 :) and a big marketplace under $100 - I wish them all the continued success in the world.
I found the Grover ICs to sound superior in my system to the copper anti's. They are a much more advanced design using silver ribbon conductors so one would expect this difference, but nothing's guaranteed in this biz until you hear with your own ears. A more apt comparision would be to anti silvers, but then the price comes in to play and Grover's are cheaper ( I think! :o ) I never heard anti silvers, but word is they're very good. Grover's are good enough for me until I can afford to compare them to JPS which has me smitten for now. I do hope to audition Grover speaker wires though... but that's for another thread :)
Just saw your last post big red, I agree with much of what you said. A great system deserves premium (usually kinda expensive) cables and it can make night and day difference! Not everyone needs that performance, and some can't hear a difference for many possible reasons. Usually cables do need break in, but IME the work is done steeply at first and diminishing over the remaining burn in time. In a couple days of constant play, you should be able to hear the jist of it. Then compare back to the old cable to see if its better swapping back and forth every couple days. The personality of each wire will emerge and you won't be "getting used" to either of them.
Rich
-
I've had cables that sounded good-to-great out of the gate, but improvement beyond that first impression is usually marginally at best. In fact, I don't believe I've listened to an impressive out-of-the-gate performer that continued to improve, at least not significantly.
On the flip side, I've auditioned cables that absolutely sucked for as much as 2 weeks (Sonoran Plateau) that eventually came to sound very good. And no, I didn't get used to their sound. They were so bad that I turned the system on when I left for work and turned it off as soon as I returned. I couldn't stand it; I actually thought something in my system might've broken. The only reason I gave them that long was a promise I made to the guy who sold 'em to me. Otherwise they'd have been gone in less than 24 hours.
I don't believe Grover's cables need 2 weeks, but they came a long way from what I heard the first day. I wish I could give you a time frame, but I can't. Truth is, I didn't listen to the much the first week or so. I didn't like what they did when first placed in the system, so I burned them in at night while we were sleeping. :wink:
IN SUMMARY: (1) Not all cables require extensive burn-in time, but some do, and some of those need a lot of time. (2) Cables that are good from the start aren't necessarily the best sounding cables; they're just the best sounding cables today.
-Jim
-
I agree that Grover has been a gentleman in all my dealings with him.
Have you told him you heard something better than his cables yet?
If not, that may have a lot to do with it.
-
BRM,
You might want to try this method: Don't replace your existing wires; instead burn in new wires using a spare DVD or CD player. When you have reached the recommended length of time for burn in, swap in the new wires. I use this method since I agree with your premise that your ears do adjust over time. This way you are listening to them "out of the box," so to speak, but broken in.
With the Grovers, which I use (along with his speaker wire), I only broke them in for only 40 hours by mistake. My wife commented that they didn't sound right. I agreed and was disappointed. But I left them in for the weekend. At one point they sounded weird and that got my attention. In the past I've noticed power cords and ICs sometimes sound bad before they turn around and sound good (hey, don't ask me how this works, I just report what I hear). In the middle of a song, they turned musical and transparent. I asked my wife to check it out and she thought they were sounding very good (and she hates this kind of comparison exercise). I know this sounds like BS but thems the facts.
To me, the Grovers allow you to hear into your system. I hear absolutely heavenly midrange, good bass and some noise in the HF (although HF is still very good). I'm going to try to find the source of the HF noise now (I already have dedicated outlets and a balanced power unit for my source). It wouldn't surprise me if suppressing noise also increases the bass definition (I have found bass definition to be a good indicator of noise). Of course, one could also assume that the noise if actually the "sound of silver" since some think that silver never gets the HF right. We will see.
I can understand why some folks go the route of battery powered components. At least that eliminates one variable...
Phil
-
I agree that Grover has been a gentleman in all my dealings with him.
Have you told him you heard something better than his cables yet?
Why would I do that? I would not feel the need to tell him I heard something better. And I don't assume he would care what I thought anyway, :lol: Besides I would be so excited about that kind of find that I would just go listen to more music! :)
If not, that may have a lot to do with it.
That may have a lot to do with what? :dunno: Sorry, I guess I am thick.
I like Grover. We enjoy similar tastes in equipment, music style, and humor. He is a character, as most creative personalities are, but one I am glad to know.
Rich
-
A good cable and Grover is a gentleman all the way.
I would beg to differ (a LOT!) with the latter part of your comment, but the first part is an understatement IMO. I agree with those who say you should've given them more time.
My initial impression of the ICs was similar to yours, but they improved significantly after a week or so of burn-in. In some aspects it was difficult to tell them apart from my 'standard' IC (Stealth Cables Indra) during a second week A/B session, and that's more than a little impressive.
If you don't believe in burn-in, settling or whatever you want to call it, that's fine. After all, it's your money and your system, and I have nothing at stake either way. But if your approach is to make a decision after listening 5 minutes or less, you're going to miss out on some awfully good deals.
-Jim
Hi Jim,
Yeah, when I plugged in my black ones, frankly I was unimpressed. They were like hoe humm cables, nothing special. I left a CD running and was working on other stuff in the den, and came back in about 15 minutes or so, and wow, what happened here. I knew these were still like well enclosed, like you were listening thruogh a screen door. I saw the potential was there. About 50 hours later, and all's history. So if anyone buys them, don't just stick 'em in the system, listen for a moment, and pull 'em back out. These cables are living proof that there is such a thing as break in.
When I came back after 15 minutes later, one of the first things I noticed was the definition of bass notes. These puppies have detail written all over them. And these aren't the newest generation either.
Ray
-
BGR, you mentioned that all of your cables are new? that sucks!!! don't spend another penny on cabling until you get everythig burned in...then go 1 by 1. This is especially true for power cords...they impart more of a change to what you hear...let them settle for a while then work on IC's.
burn-in is no mystery and you guys are nice for saying its only a 2 week duration. no matter if its a cable or component or speaker, everything seems to take about a month for me.
patience is such a weird thing to learn in this hobby, took me a few years. waiting for cables & new gear to burn in is trying, but doesn't compare to new speaker drivers. like waiting for glue to dry...
BGR, you should try a burn-in CD. i've been using the Purist Audio system enhancer for a few weeks, its pretty radical. cable burn-in devices and firms who offer the service might be of help too.
its kinda funny to think about a component which we might own for years, yet its so damn painful to give it a fair demo often. i'm just as guilty as the next guy!
FYI - Anti-IC's are probably a bettter product than the A-C's. i have 2 pairs of Anti-IC's and won't part with them. About 2 months ago my eyes were open as to how A-C's work in my system..and they are no longer allowed.
matt
-
Why would I do that? I would not feel the need to tell him I heard something better. And I don't assume he would care what I thought anyway, :lol: Besides I would be so excited about that kind of find that I would just go listen to more music! :)
Uh... because he asked? He asked for my feedback, and I know he asked the same of John Cook (BSC) and several others.
I dunno... maybe you're right about Grover not caring what you think.
If not, that may have a lot to do with it.
That may have a lot to do with what? :dunno: Sorry, I guess I am thick.
I think one of us must be, because the two sentences made the connotation crystal clear to me! :wink: :lol:
What I meant was, maybe the lack of perceived negative feedback has something to do with the fact that you believe Grover to be a gentleman.
I like Grover. We enjoy similar tastes in equipment, music style, and humor. He is a character, as most creative personalities are, but one I am glad to know.
I'm honestly glad that's the case. Seriously.
-Jim
-
BRM,
You might want to try this method: Don't replace your existing wires; instead burn in new wires using a spare DVD or CD player. When you have reached the recommended length of time for burn in, swap in the new wires. I use this method since I agree with your premise that your ears do adjust over time. This way you are listening to them "out of the box," so to speak, but broken in.
With the Grovers, which I use (along with his speaker wire), I only broke them in for only 40 hours by mistake. My wife commented that they didn't sound right. I agreed and was disappointed. But I left them in for the weekend. At one point they sounded weird and that got my attention. In the past I've noticed power cords and ICs sometimes sound bad before they turn around and sound good (hey, don't ask me how this works, I just report what I hear). In the middle of a song, they turned musical and transparent. I asked my wife to check it out and she thought they were sounding very good (and she hates this kind of comparison exercise). I know this sounds like BS but thems the facts.
To me, the Grovers allow you to hear into your system. I hear absolutely heavenly midrange, good bass and some noise in the HF (although HF is still very good). I'm going to try to find the source of the HF noise now (I already have dedicated outlets and a balanced power unit for my source). It wouldn't surprise me if suppressing noise also increases the bass definition (I have found bass definition to be a good indicator of noise). Of course, one could also assume that the noise if actually the "sound of silver" since some think that silver never gets the HF right. We will see.
I can understand why some folks go the route of battery powered components. At least that eliminates one variable...
Phil
Hi Phil,
I had my black Grovers in for about oooh, close to 50 hours. I then pulled them out and stuck in a different pair of cables. They were good, but sorta flat sounding. Anyway, I pulled out the comparison cables, which were antis, and put back the Grovers. They too were sounding flat sounding. I thought "was I hearing things?" I went out of the room for a few minutes to grab a bite to eat. I left the room with a CD Playing? I came back oooh about 10 to 15 minutes later. Wahlah, all was back. Go figure. These cables just bring everything alive. The bass def is great, mids and top, and I don't know if this is a real term or not, but the inner dynamics ... almost like someone had used a compander or something. I want to try some of his other stuff. Actually, I'm gonna eventually get another pair.
That's my take on these cables.
So far my dealings with Grover have been good.
Ray
-
I have been Grover Cable users for awhile also. Grover has been pleasant to deal with. Have I said to him that his cables could be better? You bet! :wink: Even though I know cable performance could often be much system dependent, I always convey honestly what I heard and my like and dislike. It is as simple as if it doesn't sound good enough, they go going back to Grover. aa
In terms of burn-in, I think they will need 50+ hours. I usually put them on cable cooker pro for 6-8 hours and run them 24+ hours continuously with a full spectrum music CD on repeat. I have heard a few iterations of S cable, and still haven't decide a worthy iteration to upgrade yet.
-
I always convey honestly what I heard and my like and dislike.
That you did that and can still say Grover "has been pleasant to deal with" is a stark contrast to my experience, Howard, and to that of others I know.
But I'll say no more about it, and will now bow out of this aspect of the topic. IMO, no good can come from continuing.
-Jim
-
That you did that and can still say Grover "has been pleasant to deal with" is a stark contrast to my experience, Howard, and to that of others I know.
But I'll say no more about it, and will now bow out of this aspect of the topic. IMO, no good can come from continuing.
-Jim
Hi Jim,
To bad for your experiences with Grover. All I know he's a human being like everyone else on this Earth, and sometimes you, (a general statement about anyone, not specifically you) can rub people the wrong way, and visa versa. You're a good boy not to talk about it.
Anyhow, all I know is the cables I have currently I've never heard a cable do what I've heard these do. Now to say, these are the best. can't say that, cause I've not heard the real expensive stuff to really know. I do intend to get a pair of white ones and then determine which are the better ones and why. Will it be subtle, don't know. I have noticed through the years with audiophiles, that they will say night and day differences, when it is in reality a subtle difference/improvement. I do try to be objective if possible. If it is indeed a night and day difference, I'll be truthful and tell you so.
Another aspect of this is if you are an Audiophile, and you have listened to stuff long enough, then perhaps to you those differences will be night and day. But if I would bring my wife in to the room, she may or may not hear any difference at all. To top it off, she would not be able to tell you why, just that it's better.
Everyone hears differently. That is why we have so many products out there to choose from. Some stuff is really good, and some not so good.
Anyway, this part is a whole diffent topic. Somethimes a boring one at best.
Ray