M3TM positioning and imaging questions

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Kreepin

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 62
Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #20 on: 22 Dec 2023, 07:19 am »
Hi,

I share your issue relating to poor rooms. As I suggested why not try a floor rug in front of the speakers and some acoustic panels behind your speakers. My room is worse then your's though :(

Cheers Rod

Well I didn't really want to get into it all but here it goes. 3 years trying to get this house done and I've brought and sold multiple amps, speakers and cables. All the while I really couldn't enjoy any of it, just test to make sure it works. Now that the house is maybe a few months away from being completed, we are considering selling it. I have a lawn chair in the living room because the sofa we purchased is not available yet. I threw down a few moving blankets in front of the speakers because I can't get to the rugs in the storage unit. I'm just trying to enjoy this setup for the little time I can. I went for the M3's because they require less space to setup which works well for this space.
I actually posted the speakers for sale and will most likely part ways with a few other things. Moving sucks, my subs have a few scrapes from the last move.

Rocket

Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #21 on: 22 Dec 2023, 10:07 am »
Hi,

I also feel your pain as I was itinerant for a couple of years and everytime I moved I did damage to my speakers. Now that I'm settled I won't be upgrading or moving my speakers again.

Good luck.

Cheers Rod

Kreepin

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  • Posts: 62
Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #22 on: 22 Dec 2023, 01:20 pm »
Hi,

I also feel your pain as I was itinerant for a couple of years and everytime I moved I did damage to my speakers. Now that I'm settled I won't be upgrading or moving my speakers again.

Good luck.

Cheers Rod

Moving really sucks but hopefully this will be the last time for many many years

jnschneyer

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 127
Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #23 on: 24 Dec 2023, 12:53 am »
I don’t know. I’m reading a lot of doom and gloom about your room (sorry for the rhymes), and no doubt there are a lot of reflective surfaces to contend with, but, it seems to me, the size of your room is a plus. Open baffle speakers by design are supposed to be more forgiving when it comes to sidewall reflections and boundary issues generally. I think once you have carpet down, or floor rugs, furniture installed, and art and whatnot on the walls, you’re going to have a much more subdued acoustic environment. I would suggest moving the speakers a little closer together, which will further reduce sidewall interaction and may help clarify some of that diffuse quality of the instrument placement in your image you’re describing. I would also suggest you pull them a bit further into the room, which will reduce boundary issues with the wall behind the speakers. Sitting nearfield will definitely help reduce side reflections, but can be peculiar in a living situation, and moving the speakers both in from the side walls and out from the wall behind may give you close to the same result. You won’t really know what you’ve got until your rugs and other furnishings are in, but I’m betting those, plus these small speaker placement changes, will make a big difference. In any case, it won’t cost you a small fortune in panels to find out. But I don’t think you should despair of your room being suitable for audio. Bigger rooms are easier to cope with than smaller rooms. I bet it won’t take much to make your room as good as most home setups. Good luck.

Kreepin

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 62
Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #24 on: 24 Dec 2023, 01:38 am »
I don’t know. I’m reading a lot of doom and gloom about your room (sorry for the rhymes), and no doubt there are a lot of reflective surfaces to contend with, but, it seems to me, the size of your room is a plus. Open baffle speakers by design are supposed to be more forgiving when it comes to sidewall reflections and boundary issues generally. I think once you have carpet down, or floor rugs, furniture installed, and art and whatnot on the walls, you’re going to have a much more subdued acoustic environment. I would suggest moving the speakers a little closer together, which will further reduce sidewall interaction and may help clarify some of that diffuse quality of the instrument placement in your image you’re describing. I would also suggest you pull them a bit further into the room, which will reduce boundary issues with the wall behind the speakers. Sitting nearfield will definitely help reduce side reflections, but can be peculiar in a living situation, and moving the speakers both in from the side walls and out from the wall behind may give you close to the same result. You won’t really know what you’ve got until your rugs and other furnishings are in, but I’m betting those, plus these small speaker placement changes, will make a big difference. In any case, it won’t cost you a small fortune in panels to find out. But I don’t think you should despair of your room being suitable for audio. Bigger rooms are easier to cope with than smaller rooms. I bet it won’t take much to make your room as good as most home setups. Good luck.

Yeah everyone seems to go negative and IMO, this is not that bad of a room. Yes there are a lot of reflective surfaces but I can deal with that once I get the contractors out of here. This is my 1st run with open baffle speakers so I truly do not have a clue where to begin, but I've been an enthusiast for for a few decades. I differ from most though, I really don't like having a dedicated listening space. I don't like running away from everyone and locking myself up just to listen to the music, I like my setup to be part of my living space and enjoying it with my wife and friends when they come by. I may not have the extreme budget as many do but I invest time and some money in the beginning and end of the system. Beginning being power, many setups get hampered by the crap power from the house and conditioners. The end of course is speaker placement, average speakers can be very impressive just by taking the time to place them correctly in a room. That's what this topic was all about, understanding the what and how of placement for these speakers since I'm clueless to open baffle speakers.
 At the moment, I'm enjoying the size of the soundstage. Joe Bonamassa live at the beacon theater is expansive, although a bit muddy at times. The only real negative I have to the sound is the lack of depth, it really is like a giant wall of sound but not deep. Once I get furniture in I will start moving them around a bit, hopefully bringing them out more into the room will get some of 3D effect to join the party.

Appreciate the advice and info, I'm enjoying this setup as is for a little while and hopefully I can get it dialed in better soon.

Mr. Big

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 647
Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #25 on: 24 Dec 2023, 02:55 pm »
Yeah everyone seems to go negative and IMO, this is not that bad of a room. Yes there are a lot of reflective surfaces but I can deal with that once I get the contractors out of here. This is my 1st run with open baffle speakers so I truly do not have a clue where to begin, but I've been an enthusiast for for a few decades. I differ from most though, I really don't like having a dedicated listening space. I don't like running away from everyone and locking myself up just to listen to the music, I like my setup to be part of my living space and enjoying it with my wife and friends when they come by. I may not have the extreme budget as many do but I invest time and some money in the beginning and end of the system. Beginning being power, many setups get hampered by the crap power from the house and conditioners. The end of course is speaker placement, average speakers can be very impressive just by taking the time to place them correctly in a room. That's what this topic was all about, understanding the what and how of placement for these speakers since I'm clueless to open baffle speakers.
 At the moment, I'm enjoying the size of the soundstage. Joe Bonamassa live at the beacon theater is expansive, although a bit muddy at times. The only real negative I have to the sound is the lack of depth, it really is like a giant wall of sound but not deep. Once I get furniture in I will start moving them around a bit, hopefully bringing them out more into the room will get some of 3D effect to join the party.

Appreciate the advice and info, I'm enjoying this setup as is for a little while and hopefully I can get it dialed in better soon.

Depth will come when you have some acoustic panels on the front wall behind the speakers. I had my loft painted and when It was done I listened to my system with just curtains rehung and no acoustic panels. The sound was all forward with spatial clues and imaging all over the place with the whole room having a vast soundstage with no specific placement or imaging. Heard sounded around me above me and reminded who my room sounded years ago before I started spending money on the room and not just more gear. But the thing is back then we just sat there and accepted how the system sounded without having the experience of fixing room acoustics. So do you need them no, but once you hear about the improvement on your system there is no going back because now you know what all is missing. I have my system in my loft area above the family room so I have no back wall behind where I sit, the next wall is 45' away yet I still needed the fitted with panels, so an open room still needs attention. We can listen to music downstairs which we do nightly for an hour or so before dinner. So I am not isolated in a room. Open baffle speakers image well and have excellent depth. They are very much like a panel speaker in that regard. My room is over 20 years old with 3 different speakers.



















Early B.

Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #26 on: 24 Dec 2023, 03:52 pm »
Yeah everyone seems to go negative and IMO, this is not that bad of a room. Yes there are a lot of reflective surfaces but I can deal with that once I get the contractors out of here. This is my 1st run with open baffle speakers so I truly do not have a clue where to begin, but I've been an enthusiast for for a few decades. I differ from most though, I really don't like having a dedicated listening space. I don't like running away from everyone and locking myself up just to listen to the music, I like my setup to be part of my living space and enjoying it with my wife and friends when they come by. I may not have the extreme budget as many do but I invest time and some money in the beginning and end of the system. Beginning being power, many setups get hampered by the crap power from the house and conditioners. The end of course is speaker placement, average speakers can be very impressive just by taking the time to place them correctly in a room. That's what this topic was all about, understanding the what and how of placement for these speakers since I'm clueless to open baffle speakers.
 At the moment, I'm enjoying the size of the soundstage. Joe Bonamassa live at the beacon theater is expansive, although a bit muddy at times. The only real negative I have to the sound is the lack of depth, it really is like a giant wall of sound but not deep. Once I get furniture in I will start moving them around a bit, hopefully bringing them out more into the room will get some of 3D effect to join the party.

Appreciate the advice and info, I'm enjoying this setup as is for a little while and hopefully I can get it dialed in better soon.

The main issue in your original post was this: "No matter what I've done, I just cannot get the speakers to disappear and get the music to float out into there space." Most of the responses you've received have been attempts to help you resolve this issue, and your room is the biggest factor in overcoming this. Nevertheless, with your room in its current form, you should be able to get the speakers to disappear with proper placement and seating position. With such a cavernous space, the further you sit away from your speakers, the more localizable they become. Also, bass is an important contributor to the perception of depth. With OB speakers, your subs must be close to your speakers (i.e., 2 feet). One more thing -- OB speakers should never sound like a "giant wall of sound." Take a moment and sit 10 feet from your speakers and report back on whether you're hearing a difference.         

Kreepin

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 62
Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #27 on: 24 Dec 2023, 04:14 pm »
Depth will come when you have some acoustic panels on the front wall behind the speakers. I had my loft painted and when It was done I listened to my system with just curtains rehung and no acoustic panels. The sound was all forward with spatial clues and imaging all over the place with the whole room having a vast soundstage with no specific placement or imaging. Heard sounded around me above me and reminded who my room sounded years ago before I started spending money on the room and not just more gear. But the thing is back then we just sat there and accepted how the system sounded without having the experience of fixing room acoustics. So do you need them no, but once you hear about the improvement on your system there is no going back because now you know what all is missing. I have my system in my loft area above the family room so I have no back wall behind where I sit, the next wall is 45' away yet I still needed the fitted with panels, so an open room still needs attention. We can listen to music downstairs which we do nightly for an hour or so before dinner. So I am not isolated in a room. Open baffle speakers image well and have excellent depth. They are very much like a panel speaker in that regard. My room is over 20 years old with 3 different speakers.
















Nice setup, I had acoustic panels but there is no way the wife is going to let me put that up in this house, I can get away with a lot but there are limits  :roll:




I do give up the seat to her every so often and she enjoys when I drag in new gear. She has picked her favorite amps so far, Odyssey Stratos Extreme mono blocks, and now she is learning about acoustics a lot more because of these speakers and the wide open space. She has been getting into this a bit more over the last 5 or 6 years and slowly getting addicted. It's all part of my plan  :green:

jnschneyer

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 127
Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #28 on: 24 Dec 2023, 10:31 pm »
Yeah everyone seems to go negative and IMO, this is not that bad of a room. Yes there are a lot of reflective surfaces but I can deal with that once I get the contractors out of here. This is my 1st run with open baffle speakers so I truly do not have a clue where to begin, but I've been an enthusiast for for a few decades. I differ from most though, I really don't like having a dedicated listening space. I don't like running away from everyone and locking myself up just to listen to the music, I like my setup to be part of my living space and enjoying it with my wife and friends when they come by. I may not have the extreme budget as many do but I invest time and some money in the beginning and end of the system. Beginning being power, many setups get hampered by the crap power from the house and conditioners. The end of course is speaker placement, average speakers can be very impressive just by taking the time to place them correctly in a room. That's what this topic was all about, understanding the what and how of placement for these speakers since I'm clueless to open baffle speakers.
 At the moment, I'm enjoying the size of the soundstage. Joe Bonamassa live at the beacon theater is expansive, although a bit muddy at times. The only real negative I have to the sound is the lack of depth, it really is like a giant wall of sound but not deep. Once I get furniture in I will start moving them around a bit, hopefully bringing them out more into the room will get some of 3D effect to join the party.

Appreciate the advice and info, I'm enjoying this setup as is for a little while and hopefully I can get it dialed in better soon.


I’ve already said what I have to say about the room, but I wanted to add that I agree completely with your preference for having your music in the living area of the home not in a dedicated space. I absolutely believe the music should be where the life of the home is and not quarantined off in a monk’s cell for listening purity. Even if I had unlimited funds, I’d build an acoustically perfect living room, not a separate listening space. I’m kidding about the monk’s cell, as I can imagine why someone would want a dedicated room as a kind of hifi sanctuary, it’s just not my preference. Of course, as I don’t have unlimited funds, like so many of us, I have to contend with the compromises audio in a home living space engenders. So be it. Again, good luck with yours.