DSD DACs

dminches · « **Reply #400 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 01:10 pm »

Quote from: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 12:55 pm

I myself am disposed to playing everything at native recorded rate/format

I feel similarly. The fewer processes the better.

k6davis · « **Reply #401 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 01:42 pm »

Quote from: dminches on 24 Oct 2013, 01:10 pm

I feel similarly. The fewer processes the better.

I respect the principle of what you're saying, but I think the idea is that, especially with PCM, all kinds of "processes" are required to turn it into audio we can hear. It needs to be manipulated to turn it into sound. So no matter what, heavy processing is taking place.

So the question becomes, is it better to feed your DAC the upconverted DSD signal or let it process the raw PCM?

I'm not saying that your answer is wrong. Just that it really depends on your computer, your software & your DAC.

It's essentially free to try and if it doesn't sound better, you haven't lost anything.

wisnon · « **Reply #402 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 01:51 pm »

Quote from: k6davis on 24 Oct 2013, 01:04 pm

You're welcome. It's articles like yours that not only make us aware of equipment we may not have otherwise known about, but also give us an in depth understanding of why we might be interested in particular piece. It's a great help to us in making these rather complex decisions.

With that said, smile, you're concerning me a little in regard to the LampizatOr DSD DAC.

I agree with you that there will be a small minority buying the unit as a stand alone piece, but I hope that Lucasz fully intends to sell it that way, as the website suggests.

Sure, it will be sold, dont worry. He just does/did not expect as much demand...I think he could be wrong there with the new groundswell developing of DSD128 upsamplers!!!!

wisnon · « **Reply #403 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 01:55 pm »

Quote from: k6davis on 24 Oct 2013, 01:09 pm

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but this is on the Lampi DSD DAC webpage. http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/DSD_DAC.html. Interested parties may want to get this confirmed... or debunked:

That needs to be updated. This was done before he got the module minaturized enough. I asked and he told me its possible in L4s too, if they are not already overloaded with options. It wont be possible for a fully balanced L4, no space left, but I assume a S.E. L4 with USB and Volme control is a prime candidate for upgrade.

ted_b · « **Reply #404 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 01:56 pm »

Quote from: k6davis on 24 Oct 2013, 01:42 pm

I respect the principle of what you're saying, but I think the idea is that, especially with PCM, all kinds of "processes" are required to turn it into audio we can hear. It needs to be manipulated to turn it into sound. So no matter what, heavy processing is taking place.

So the question becomes, is it better to feed your DAC the upconverted DSD signal or let it process the raw PCM?

I'm not saying that your answer is wrong. Just that it really depends on your computer, your software & your DAC.

It's essentially free to try and if it doesn't sound better, you haven't lost anything.

+1. Well put!

When I said I would do the DSD upsample thing in JRIver it's because,with this unique Lampi design other than my 1500 ripped SACDs, its my only choice with the other many terabytes of music (i.e PCM) I own. And to George's credit, his "logistics" question is a good one and well-founded. If one would attempt to use two DACs and two computer streams (with two dac drivers, etc) in their computer audio setup it would be maddening. That is why this "DSD-only" issues is worth talking about...cuz its "simplicity" has many layers (oxymoron?). But as said ealrier, and better said by k6davis, many DACs are internally doing this upsampling/conversion to work within their delta-sigma design, so this Lampi design is simply asking the user to do that....and that maybe it will result in even better sonics.

K6Davis (and others) feel free to peruse my (and Jesus's) DSD database over on google docs and let us know if we've missed anything. I;m sure we have. New DSD DACs from Lindemann and Nagra, for example, are not yet on there. I'm falling behind.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114707.0

wisnon · « **Reply #405 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 02:00 pm »

Ted, do you know if JRiver for Mac can do the same PCM to DSD upsampling like the PC version? Also, can either do DSD64 to DSD128 on the fly as well?

Good points you and George raise. Of course, with a Hybrid Lampi with PCM and DSD, one could still go the upsampling route at will and play "natively" at will. L4 and L5 is R2R, but that is still different to pure ladder, no?

Ted,you do realize that the list will soon become menaingless right. Almost EVERY Dac from now on for the forseeable future will be DSD capable, except pure ladder dacs. I think even Weiss has a DSD or streamer now...

jtwrace · « **Reply #406 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 02:09 pm »

Quote from: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 02:00 pm

Ted, do you know if JRiver for Mac can do the same PCM to DSD upsampling like the PC version? Also, can either do DSD64 to DSD128 on the fly as well?

Yes, only to DSD64 as of today. They're working on PCM > DSD128 though.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84307.0

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #407 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 02:17 pm »

Quote from: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 12:59 pm

About $1k give or take (plus delivery), requires sending back and DHL delivery take max 2 days to return.

If you do that, you may want to add Duelund caps and if an older L4, you may want to spec up to Gen4.

I cant answer for the details there....

Already have L4/G4 with Duelands, so good there. I was thinking it might be more and I could get a DSD dac for closer to $1k and have two dacs. Mostly to see if I want to go that path. I have a handful of songs in DSD-formats and I can see the added black background and fidelity for the few seconds they play before rebuffering. But as far as building up a library I am not going to start purchsing SACD's and then have them ripped.

My L4G4 is starting to really open up now that I have found complementary tubes for the Dude. Some spooky results. So tasting the blood has made me more DSD-curious on a very limited budget right now. I hate the idea of relinquishing my dac for a few weeks.

wisnon · « **Reply #408 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 02:54 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 24 Oct 2013, 02:09 pm

Yes, only to DSD64 as of today. They're working on PCM > DSD128 though.

http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=84307.0

Thanks, jtw and for Mac too?

Funny, I hear lots of talk about DSD128 software upsampling. Pretty sure Signalist does this...

jtwrace · « **Reply #409 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 02:56 pm »

Quote from: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 02:54 pm

Thanks, jtw and for Mac too?

Funny, I hear lots of talk about DSD128 software upsampling. Pretty sure Signalist does this...

That is for Mac. Only supported in MC19 though.

These are the new features for MC19.

ted_b · « **Reply #410 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 02:56 pm »

Signalyst is a Windows player. On Windows JRiver does DSD128 upsampling too.

As Matt has warned, it is quite cpu-intensive. My only concern is my cpu strength, as my current controlpc (the one that has JRIver on it) is a CAPS Lagoon Atom-based Intel dn2800mt processor. I'm not holding out much hope, but I have plenty of DSD to test the Lampi with, regardless.

wisnon · « **Reply #411 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 02:59 pm »

Quote from: Big Red Machine on 24 Oct 2013, 02:17 pm

Already have L4/G4 with Duelands, so good there. I was thinking it might be more and I could get a DSD dac for closer to $1k and have two dacs. Mostly to see if I want to go that path. I have a handful of songs in DSD-formats and I can see the added black background and fidelity for the few seconds they play before rebuffering. But as far as building up a library I am not going to start purchsing SACD's and then have them ripped.

My L4G4 is starting to really open up now that I have found complementary tubes for the Dude. Some spooky results. So tasting the blood has made me more DSD-curious on a very limited budget right now. I hate the idea of relinquishing my dac for a few weeks.

I hear yah BRM.

Maybe in time it will be an upgrade that will be doable in the US... but with overnight DHL back, the whole excercise may be just a week to 10 days of coordinated well beforehand.

Note that 90+% of the other DSD Dacs out there is not true native DSD! They wont be the same as what LF has done. Read my PTA article again (and the comments section) to see what he does different, the road not commonly taken.

Yeah, duelunds have a fairly long break-in time.

What tubes did you decide on in the end?

wisnon · « **Reply #412 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 03:01 pm »

Quote from: ted_b on 24 Oct 2013, 02:56 pm

Signalyst is a Windows player. On Windows JRIver does it too.

THANKS Guys, I had heard that Windows MC19 could do that...

Mac is getting outdistanced!!!!

jtwrace · « **Reply #413 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 03:03 pm »

Quote from: ted_b on 24 Oct 2013, 02:56 pm

Signalyst is a Windows player. On Windows JRiver does DSD128 upsampling too. As Matt has warned, it is quite cpu-intensive. My only concern is my cpu strength, as my current controlpc (the one that has JRIver on it) is a CAPS Lagoon Atom-based Intel dn2800mt processor. I'm not holding out much hope, but I have plenty of DSD to test the Lampi with, regardless.

The Mac code for JRiver has already gotten 40% quicker. It will be out in the next version.

Quote from: wisnon on 24 Oct 2013, 03:01 pm

Mac is getting outdistanced!!!!

What do you mean?

jtwrace · « **Reply #414 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 03:06 pm »

I was thinking very seriously (parts list made) about building a Windows machine (not CAPS) to replace my Mac Mini. I started this thread and have now decided to wait until the new Mini comes out and get that.

Maybe you'll find something of use in it.

Atlplasma · « **Reply #415 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 04:09 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 24 Oct 2013, 03:06 pm

I was thinking very seriously (parts list made) about building a Windows machine (not CAPS) to replace my Mac Mini. I started this thread and have now decided to wait until the new Mini comes out and get that.

Maybe you'll find something of use in it.

Is there something about the new Mini that has caught your attention? I thought the CAPS type PCs made really good music servers.

wisnon · « **Reply #416 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 04:21 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 24 Oct 2013, 03:03 pm

What do you mean?

Dual PC servers, lagging with playback software like JRiver, no Mqn, no Signalyst, etc...
DoP only, no Asio/Wasapi. Mac used to be the go to choice for music...

this_is_vv · « **Reply #417 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 11:45 pm »

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DAC-32192-DSD-32Bit-192KHz-2-8224MHz-DSD64-2Channels-DAC-Based-on-WM8741-/331026135234?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d12b1f8c2

V

ted_b · « **Reply #418 on:** 25 Oct 2013, 01:51 pm »

Quote from: ted_b on 24 Oct 2013, 02:56 pm

Signalyst is a Windows player. On Windows JRiver does DSD128 upsampling too. As Matt has warned, it is quite cpu-intensive. My only concern is my cpu strength, as my current controlpc (the one that has JRIver on it) is a CAPS Lagoon Atom-based Intel dn2800mt processor. I'm not holding out much hope, but I have plenty of DSD to test the Lampi with, regardless.

Last night I realized I have an option with my cpu-intensive issue....do the conversions in JRiver before hand! So I've taken several PCM favorites and converted them to DSD128, readying myself for the eval.

wisnon · « **Reply #419 on:** 25 Oct 2013, 01:55 pm »

Clever Ted.

I now understand the bottleneck on the feeble control PC.

I will use the MM 2012 quad-core 2.3ghz and I expect that should bbe powerful enough. i just heard that JRMC19 for Mac will now upsample all to DSD128 on the fly! Thumbs up!!!