[ted_b]

DSD only DAC...can't see how that is a viable option from a logistics standpoint.   

George

George, yes you have a point...However....Many DACs only do one thing, really.  My Meitner MA-1 is, in reality, a one-bit DSD only DAC, while upsampling all PCM to DSD128 internally.  So for the Lampi (which, frankly, is a prototype and not intended to be sold as DSD only, really...just a proto of what will mostly be a board option for the Level 4 and 5 DACs) I will ask JRiver to upsample all my PCM to DSD (before it gets to the Lampi).   Lucasz will sell a few of these in DSD only mode, but only a precious few...most will be included in a combination DAC. 

[Berto]

DSD only DAC...can't see how that is a viable option from a logistics standpoint.   

George

I think if you have access to a top level vinyl rig and thousands of great recordings to rip to DSD, well then I could see a DSD only DAC kicking ass. I was just talking to Lukasz about this when he was in NY.

But like Ted said DSD will be mostly in the L4 and 5 dacs as well as auto sensing what format is playing.

[wisnon]

George, yes you have a point...However....Many DACs only do one thing, really.  My Meitner MA-1 is, in reality, a one-bit DSD only DAC, while upsampling all PCM to DSD128 internally.  So for the Lampi (which, frankly, is a prototype and not intended to be sold as DSD only, really...just a proto of what will mostly be a board option for the Level 4 and 5 DACs) I will ask JRiver to upsample all my PCM to DSD (before it gets to the Lampi).   Lucasz will sell a few of these in DSD only mode, but only a precious few...most will be included in a combination DAC.

Hi Ted, does JRiver upsample DSD64 to DSD128 too? I assume this is PC JRiver and not Mac Jriver 19, right?

[wisnon]

I think if you have access to a top level vinyl rig and thousands of great recordings to rip to DSD, well then I could see a DSD only DAC kicking ass. I was just talking to Lukasz about this when he was in NY.

But like Ted said DSD will be mostly in the L4 and 5 dacs as well as auto sensing what format is playing.

I had someone asking me this very question yesterday, as that is the bulk of their listening. Vinyl transfer to DSD128!!!!

[k6davis]

DSD only DAC...can't see how that is a viable option from a logistics standpoint.   

George

George, yes you have a point...However....Many DACs only do one thing, really.  My Meitner MA-1 is, in reality, a one-bit DSD only DAC, while upsampling all PCM to DSD128 internally.  So for the Lampi (which, frankly, is a prototype and not intended to be sold as DSD only, really...just a proto of what will mostly be a board option for the Level 4 and 5 DACs) I will ask JRiver to upsample all my PCM to DSD (before it gets to the Lampi).   Lucasz will sell a few of these in DSD only mode, but only a precious few...most will be included in a combination DAC.

It seems that many people are dismissive of DSD because there's so little content or because they've heard DSD content that doesn't live up to the hype. I'm not including you in this group ted_b.

According to its webpage, http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/DSD_DAC.html, the LamipzatOr DSD DAC is not a prototype, it's available for sale (with several configurable options) and I'm highly interested in it.

I've heard that over 8,000 SACD have been released. I have a large number of SACD rips (DSD files) in my collection. More imporantly, JRiver and others now support the upsampling of all content to up to DSD128 (!!!). So the amount of content available to be played in DSD is basically infinte.

As for the sound of DSD, I don't know if it's widely understood just how high the resolution of DSD is. Looking at just DSD64:

The resolution of DSD64 is 1bit-2.8224 MHz which is equivalent to 64bit-352.8 kHz in PCM terms. More details can be found here: http://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/DSD_Format.

64bit-352.8 kHz !!!!

It is certainly true that there are poorly mastered SACD/DSD files that are sonically inferior to their (often newly remastered) PCM/RedBook equivalents. But that's not because of any shortcomings in the DSD format. What I believe is beyond question is that the sonic potential (measured by resolution and by the ears of many listeners and critics) of DSD exceeds that of our current forms of PCM. Of course, care has to be taken in the recording and mastering processes.

Beyond all of that (and please correct me if I'm wrong here as I'm going a bit beyond my depth), I believe that an analog waveform needs to be constructed from multibit PCM data while 1-bit DSD data actually resembles an analog waveform. Which is why Lucasz is able to "convert" DSD without a Sabre, Burr Brown, etc. converter chip.

Therefore, it appears that Lucasz has done something special with the LampizatOr DSD DAC. It's desgined to maximize DSD only, in a new way and without regard to the very different needs of PCM. He's taken the extremely high resolution, analog-like DSD signal and processed it with care, using primarily analog means. In that regard, what it offers is likely superior to even a theoretical 64bit-352.8 kHz ESS Sabre conversion - if such a thing existed.

Early reviews of the Lampi DSD have been ecstatic, favorably comparing its sound to the best in the world. And as far as I've read, they've been reviewing a standard model without the available balanced outputs, upgraded capacitors, etc.

I understand that it's different and certainly not for everyone, but I'm definitely interested in his DSD only DAC. If this all works well and in the way that I envision (big caveat, I know), then the question for me is not whether I need DSD in my DAC, but why I need PCM.

[wisnon]

k6Davis,

You are correct that the DSD-only Dac is for sale, BUT Ted is also correct in that his demo is still a prototype, made just before Auto-sensing was cracked in a firmware update. I also have a prototype which I bought, but mine has Duelund caps. Both units are SE and NOT Balanced, which AFAIK, Lukasz has only made one so far. I know that at least 2 L5s with DSD have also been made.

Ted is correct in that the bulk of Lampi DSDs will be made in dual Dacs with PCM, as that has been the bulk of the interest expressed to lukasz so far, However, i am seeing a rise in purist interest for DSD-only as there is a growing group of 'Philes that are upsampling all to DSD128 and quite a few ripping all their Vinyl to DSD128, so I agree the pool of DSD128 material will potentially explode!

For those of us who like the DSD sound, its a good time to be around.

BTW, I wrote the first preview at PTA in September..."Thermionic DSD, Lampizator style" and I look forward to Ted's review.

[k6davis]

k6Davis,

You are correct that the DSD-only Dac is for sale, BUT Ted is also correct in that his demo is still a prototype, made just before Auto-sensing was cracked in a firmware update. I also have a prototype which I bought, but mine has Duelund caps. Both units are SE and NOT Balanced, which AFAIK, Lukasz has only made one so far. I know that at least 2 L5s with DSD have also been made.

Ted is correct in that the bulk of Lampi DSDs will be made in dual Dacs with PCM, as that has been the bulk of the interest expressed to lukasz so far, However, i am siing a rise in purist interest for DSD-only as there is a growing group of 'Philes that are upsampling all to DSD128 and quite a few ripping all their Vinyl to DSD128, so I agree the pool of DSD128 material will potentailly explode!

For those of us who like the DSD sound, its a good time to be around.

BTW, I wrote the first preview at PTA in September..."Thermionic DSD, Lampizator style" and I look forward to Ted's review.

Well said. I think that DSD is where we're heading, and pretty fast.

Oppo has announced a headphone/stereo-pre/DSD USB DAC based on the ESS Sabre chip and the audio circuitry of their well regarded BDP-105. It should be moderately priced and likely very successful. Sony, of course has gotten behind DSD with hardware & they've promised content from all the major labels. The media player software on Windows & the Mac upconvert to it. I suspect that DSD upconversion will become standard on the next generation of DAC chips, and therefore it could even become common on mainstream audio equipment like home theater receivers within a few years.

As for Lampi DSD, I agree that the vast majority of it will be sold as add-ins to their PCM DACs. I'm just saying that, although it might sound radical, I'm interested in at least trying DSD upconversion of all my PCM content, and therefore ditching the PCM aspect of the DAC altogether. It seems to me that that may yield the best result and at a lower cost, as a loaded LampizatOr DSD DAC is already more than I really wanted to spend.

Speaking of "loaded", from the LampizatOr DSD DAC website:

OPTIONS
Duelund capacitors Copper Cast PIO   (add 180 Eu for one)
Volume control with 64 steps and remote control (add 400 Euro)
Volume control for balanced with 64 steps and remote control (add 600 Euro)
Biamping output add 100 Euro
Balanced fully differential outputs: add 400 Euro
(two more Duelunds for balanced cost 180 euro extra for each and 4 are needed in total)

I really enjoyed your write-up in PTA, which was the first article I'd seen there. I'm also looking forward to Ted's review.

[dminches]

and quite a few ripping all their Vinyl to DSD128,

I don't understand why people would do this.  If they have that good a vinyl collection and that good a vinyl setup why would you want to listen to it via a digital transfer?

Personally, I have more than enough room in my musical array for both analog and digital.  And the DSD material I have heard is truly excellent.  But I can't see making needle drops of my vinyl collection.

[zybar]

George, yes you have a point...However....Many DACs only do one thing, really.  My Meitner MA-1 is, in reality, a one-bit DSD only DAC, while upsampling all PCM to DSD128 internally.  So for the Lampi (which, frankly, is a prototype and not intended to be sold as DSD only, really...just a proto of what will mostly be a board option for the Level 4 and 5 DACs) I will ask JRiver to upsample all my PCM to DSD (before it gets to the Lampi).   Lucasz will sell a few of these in DSD only mode, but only a precious few...most will be included in a combination DAC.

Fair points Ted.

However, saying something is really good at one thing vs. only being able to do one thing isn't exactly the same.

As I understood this initial implementation, you could only do DSD unless you had a software program (such as JRiver v19) that could convert all of your PCM to DSD.  The fact that it will ultimately be an option in one of the other DAC's seems to support my initial comments.

As for JRiver upsampling PCM to DSD...I am very much looking forward to hearing that in my own system when I receive my Auaralic VEGA DAC in the coming weeks.

George

[dminches]

As for JRiver upsampling PCM to DSD...I am very much looking forward to hearing that in my own system when I receive my Auaralic VEGA DAC in the coming weeks.

George

Can someone explain to me the advantages of upsampling PCM to DSD?  I read a blog post about this but I didn't walk away with any definitive.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html

[wisnon]

Speaking of "loaded", from the LampizatOr DSD DAC website:

I really enjoyed your write-up in PTA, which was the first article I'd seen there. I'm also looking forward to Ted's review.

Thanks for the kind words! Really appreciated.

The DSD only Dac was first conceived for previous Lampi Dac owners to have a DSD option to add to their existing Dac without sending stuff back for upgrades, etc. Consequently, I think existing L3 and above owners will get a nice reduction on the retail price (according to what I saw on the website before).

Owners of LampizatOr DACs : ASK ABOUT YOUR DEEP DISCOUNT for DSD DAC !

[wisnon]

I don't understand why people would do this.  If they have that good a vinyl collection and that good a vinyl setup why would you want to listen to it via a digital transfer?

Personally, I have more than enough room in my musical array for both analog and digital.  And the DSD material I have heard is truly excellent.  But I can't see making needle drops of my vinyl collection.

Convenience. they will have to choice of playing vinyl when they want or DSD128 in a lounging session without having to keep getting up every half hour. one person told me that he and his mates could not distinguish between the 2 in a blind test with his $15K TT setup! He used PBD-3 Dac

[k6davis]

Can someone explain to me the advantages of upsampling PCM to DSD?  I read a blog post about this but I didn't walk away with any definitive.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html

JRiver states their reasoning for doing so here: http://yabb.jriver.com/interact/index.php?topic=82074.0. Here's the relevant section:

The argument for this new feature is that a DAC might do a better job with DSD than PCM.  Certain DAC chips are always running in DSD mode and any incoming PCM will get converted to DSD by the DAC.  If you instead do this conversion with a computer, you may be able to achieve higher quality.

The DSD and PCM conversion processes are apparently very different and your DAC may perform better if it receives a signal in DSD form. It's nice to be able to try it out for (essentially) no cost.

[wisnon]

Fair points Ted.

However, saying something is really good at one thing vs. only being able to do one thing isn't exactly the same.

As I understood this initial implementation, you could only do DSD unless you had a software program (such as JRiver v19) that could convert all of your PCM to DSD.  The fact that it will ultimately be an option in one of the other DAC's seems to support my initial comments.

As for JRiver upsampling PCM to DSD...I am very much looking forward to hearing that in my own system when I receive my Auaralic VEGA DAC in the coming weeks.

George

George the DSD "Dac" is not really a Dac, its an elaborate 3-stage filter! It only does DSD, as PCM requires decoding and DSD does not. This is why lampi is one of the only PURE DSD machines out there with no conversion at all and no DSP. Vega, for example uses a Sabre Chip, so while the result is reportedly excellent, its stil not unadulterated DSD.

The Lampi DSD module can be incorporated into a normal Lampi PCM Dac as an add on, and will STILL not use a chip, as it will be isolated and distinct from the PCM section. Its not ultimately an option, its now, as there are at least 2 commercial L5s sold just like that and weeks before I got my DSD only dac.

Finally, JRiver for PC costs like $50 to $100 and you get the ability to upsample PCM on the fly with the powerful PC processor, rather than the chintzy Dac chip. Where is the compromise in that?

[wisnon]

Can someone explain to me the advantages of upsampling PCM to DSD?  I read a blog post about this but I didn't walk away with any definitive.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html

I myself am disposed to playing everything at native recorded rate/format, but some people think that PCM upsampled to 128 (not 64) sounds better than the native PCM rate.

It may be a matter of taste, so try for yourself. It costs nothing to try if you already have the gear, software and media to test with.

[Big Red Machine]

Anyone have a ballpark cost to upgrade an L4 to DSD and if it requires sending it back and results in a larger chassis?

[wisnon]

Can someone explain to me the advantages of upsampling PCM to DSD?  I read a blog post about this but I didn't walk away with any definitive.

http://archimago.blogspot.com/2013/09/measurements-pcm-to-dsd-upsampling.html

Essentially if you have a Delta-sigma PCM Dac, its quasi DSD anyway. You would probably never do this if you have a ladder dac like TotalDac...which is like $12k sold direct.

[wisnon]

Anyone have a ballpark cost to upgrade an L4 to DSD and if it requires sending it back and results in a larger chassis?

About $1k give or take (plus delivery), requires sending back and DHL delivery take max 2 days to return.

If you do that, you may want to add Duelund caps and if an older L4, you may want to spec up to Gen4.

I cant answer for the details there....

[k6davis]

Thanks for the kind words! Really appreciated.

The DSD only Dac was first conceived for previous Lampi Dac owners to have a DSD option to add to their existsing Dac without send stuff back for upgrades, etc. Consequently, i think existing L3 and above owners will get a nice reduction on the retail price (according to what i saw on the website before).

Owners of LampizatOr DACs : ASK ABOUT YOUR DEEP DISCOUNT for DSD DAC !

You're welcome. It's articles like yours that not only make us aware of equipment we may not have otherwise known about, but also give us an in depth understanding of why we might be interested in particular piece. It's a great help to us in making these rather complex decisions.

With that said, smile, you're concerning me a little in regard to the LampizatOr DSD DAC.

I agree with you that there will be a small minority buying the unit as a stand alone piece, but I hope that Lucasz fully intends to sell it that way, as the website suggests.

[k6davis]

Anyone have a ballpark cost to upgrade an L4 to DSD and if it requires sending it back and results in a larger chassis?

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but this is on the Lampi DSD DAC webpage. http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/DSD_DAC.html. Interested parties may want to get this confirmed... or debunked:

DSD DAC will not be available as a retrofit addition to Lampizator DAC except the Level 5.

It is possible to install DSD DAC in Level 5 machine.