[Russtafarian]

Tyson provided me with SACD ISO files.  I used Ted B's program to extract a stereo DSF file for each track from the ISO.  Jriver tags and plays the DSF files, using DoP to send DSD to the Benchmark DAC.

Russ

[munosmario]

Tyson provided me with SACD ISO files.  I used Ted B's program to extract a stereo DSF file for each track from the ISO.  Jriver tags and plays the DSF files, using DoP to send DSD to the Benchmark DAC.

Russ

Thanks, Russ....I think I got it. Tyson did not actually rip the SACD for you. He created a disc image (ISO) which, in turn, you ripped into  *.dsf files (containing the DSD audio signal information) using Ted_b's program. Then, to play the DSD audio signal in those *.dsf files, you use JRiver to create the DoP files that are required to stream (via USB) the DSD signal out of your computer into your new Benchmark DAC 2. All of this the consequence of i) SACD copy protection and ii) limitations of the USB 2.0 protocol to transmit a DSD signal....rather complicated but, no doubt, a highly rewarding exercise!

Cheers........................Mario

[@lexander]

limitations of the USB 2.0 protocol to transmit a DSD signal

if DAC supports native DSD, how to send DSD files to it? You say that usb 2 limited to DoP, so how to send native DSD?

[ted_b]

Guys, first off DoP does NOT require any creating of files, it is a protocol.  Second, it is in fact native DSD that is passed (said for the hundredth time)not a PCM conversion.  Third, when you get DSD off the disc it is called ripping just like when you rip something else from a disc.  When you extract DSF files from the ISO it is called extraction.  Jriver can play either of these (the isos or the dsf files) with no intervention, no creation of "DoP files" etc.

No it is not complex, it is straight forward.

DSD, native and unconverted, gets to a USB DAC via either a native ASIO driver or via DoP (which is an unobtrusive automatic protocol that carries DSD within the first 16 bits of a 24/176 PCm container).  This is not PCM conversion...nothing is converted, and the user does nothing.

[munosmario]

Guys, first off DoP does NOT require any creating of files, it is a protocol.  Second, it is in fact native DSD that is passed (said for the hundredth time)not a PCM conversion.  Third, when you get DSD off the disc it is called ripping just like when you rip something else from a disc.  When you extract DSF files from the ISO it is called extraction.  Jriver can play either of these (the isos or the dsf files) with no intervention, no creation of "DoP files" etc.

No it is not complex, it is straight forward.

DSD, native and unconverted, gets to a USB DAC via either a native ASIO driver or via DoP (which is an unobtrusive automatic protocol that carries DSD within the first 16 bits of a 24/176 PCm container).  This is not PCM conversion...nothing is converted, and the user does nothing.

Thanks, Ted. Stand correct, DoP is not a file but, as you stated, a protocol that enables a port using the standard USB 2.0 protocol to transmit a native DSD signal....in other words, since the standard USB 2.0 protocol does not recognize DSD digital audio signals (only PCM ones), the DoP protocol enables the computer's USB port to transmit the native DSD signal as if it were a PCM signal but it is still a native DSD signal (ridding on top of a PCM proxy/virtual carrier signal, so to speak). What the DSD (Dop) capable DAC does is to extract the native DSD signal from the DoP modified signal coming out of the computer's USB port. Right?

Now, regarding usage of the term "ripping", we can agree to disagree. Strictly speaking, creating an ISO image is just that: "creating a disk image." When you create a disc image of a CD prior to burning, for example, that is not normally called "ripping", which would correctly be the case when the digital audio data is extracted from the disc image (or original disc, for that matter) and saved as readable digital files (playable tracks) in a computer's storage drive. That is what the term "ripping" literally means: ripping (as in "separate" not "destroy") a disc's digital contents  into individual tracks.   

Regarding simplicity or complexity label for the multi-stage process, it is simple for you or tyson or whoever has the right PS3 to start with... and, thankfully, through yours or tyson's generosity, you guys make the process "simpler" for the rest of us, but not "simple." As it pertains to myself, imposing on someoes's time and goodwill is not really that simple.

Thanks again and cheers......................Mario

[Tyson]

Just to clarify - I rip ISO files from the physical SACD disc and put them on a hard drive for you, and if you want dff files, I will extract those for you also (stereo only, not multichannel).

[srb]

That is what the term "ripping" literally means: ripping (as in "separate" not "destroy") a disc's digital contents  into individual tracks.

That is what it has come to mean relative to digital audio, but the term "rip" was originally adopted from the digital graphics sector to describe the process of producing a file that is in a format usable by an endpoint device, and literally stands for Raster Image Processor - software or embedded firmware that inputs a vector graphic file and creates a bitmap file that printing devices can use.

Steve

[munosmario]

That is what it has come to mean relative to digital audio, but the term "rip" was originally adopted from the digital graphics sector to describe the process of producing a file that is in a format usable by an endpoint device, and literally stands for Raster Image Processor - software or embedded firmware that inputs a vector graphic file and creates a bitmap file that printing devices can use.

Steve

Thanks, Steve...as you stated, I am correct relative to digital audio, which is precisely the contex of this discussion. But very interesting piece of information...if of any saving grace, within the said context, please notice that when I say "literally" I am referring to the term "ripping" meaning "ripping", namely,  to the action accomplished by the process. I did not stated that RIP means literally “to rip"

In any event, I am almost sure that you would agree with me that, within a digital audio context, the RIP acronym was so befitting as a word to describe the purpose of the process that it became a noun to name the process itself (as well as a verb to describe the action of using the process)--with vague memories of its origin as an acronym in the digital graphics field.

Thanks and cheers.................Carlos

[wisnon]

The SACD disc was protected for eons and now someone has come up with a way to rip the data from it in a usable file format .iso

Iso files are directly playable and have ripped 40 so far and not extracted a single one, as I find no compelling reason to do so yet!

That for me is the definition of ripping and in this subset of digital audio, IT HAS COME TO MEAN JUST THAT! The people who introduced the process get to name it.

You rip an .iso file and you extract a .dsf file from it of desired.

[rhmmmm]

Guy's a little clarification would be most appreciated.

Russ is talking about listening to the DSD file version of that Pizzarelli SACD but, Rob, you are talking about checking out that SACD...or did you mean "file"? I gather Meitner transports can pass native DSD from SACD (through a propriatary optical link) to their DSD capable DACs (like yours, Rob), is that your situation and , thus, the checking for that Pizarelli SACD?
 
Now, if we are actually dealing with a DSD file --or files-- Russ, could you please be more specific, was it a downloaded DoP file (from where?), or some rip from the actual SACD using a suitable Sony Play Station, or was it some other way to stream DSD natively from computer?

Thanks and cheers,

Mario

Mario,

Edit: by checking it out, I mean looking at it on amazon and listening to the preview tracks.  If I like it, I'll buy it.  I have a PS3 capable of ripping the SACD layer, so that is how I would get this SACD's DSD material to my DAC. 

Also, here is what Wikipedia thinks of ripping: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping

[munosmario]

The SACD disc was protected for eons and now someone has come up with a way to rip the data from it in a usable file format .iso

Iso files are directly playable and have ripped 40 so far and not extracted a single one, as I find no compelling reason to do so yet!

That for me is the definition of ripping and in this subset of digital audio, IT HAS COME TO MEAN JUST THAT! The people who introduced the process get to name it.

You rip an .iso file and you extract a .dsf file from it of desired.

Wow, wisnon, what a proclamation. I am not going to argue with you, just refer you to Ted_B's own words in a Computer Adiophile's thread (which echoes plenty of similar references to the meaning of ripping SACD's in that and other relevant forums:

"The only way to rip SACD's (to extract true DSD from them) is via the "hacked PS3" method described and discussed heavily here.
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/SACD-ripping-using-your-PS3-part-2"

As you can see, according to Ted's quoted statement, to rip a SACD is to extract true DSD files from them. Totally in line with conventional wisdom. So, if, as you say, you have not extracted any file yet from those ISO images you have in your possession, then, according to Ted, you have ripped nothing. All you have is a collection of ISO disc images that you created (or somebody else created for you).  Now, if Ted decides to humor you and changes his statement to endorse your proclamation, then, out of the respect that he deserves for his hard work on this matter, I will gladly humor him and also endorse that proclamation.

Peace....................Mario

[munosmario]

Mario,

Edit: by checking it out, I mean looking at it on amazon and listening to the preview tracks.  If I like it, I'll buy it.  I have a PS3 capable of ripping the SACD layer, so that is how I would get this SACD's DSD material to my DAC. 

Also, here is what Wikipedia thinks of ripping: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping

Thanks a lot, Rob, for the "cheking out" clarification. I was hoping that the SACD being recommended was available in downlodable DSD format (as you may have realized by now, I don't have suitable PS3).

Also, thanks for the Wikipedia link, there it is clearly stated that according to conventional wisdom "ripping" and "Dgital Audio Extraction (DAE)" are one and the same....meaning, if no extraction, then, no ripping. As the link also states, ripping is distinct from simple file copying, in that the source audio/video often isn't originally formatted for ease of use in a computer file system--which is exactly the case with an ISO disc image (a copy) of a SACD disc.

Thanks and cheers.............................Mari o

[Tyson]

You can play ISO files, DFF, or DSF files all as native DSD.  The advantage of using DSF or DFF is with organizing the music - ie, putting it in folders and/or tagging it. 

[wisnon]

Wow, wisnon, what a proclamation. I am not going to argue with you, just refer you to Ted_B's own words in a Computer Adiophile's thread (which echoes plenty of similar references to the meaning of ripping SACD's in that and other relevant forums:

"The only way to rip SACD's (to extract true DSD from them) is via the "hacked PS3" method described and discussed heavily here.
 http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/SACD-ripping-using-your-PS3-part-2"

As you can see, according to Ted's quoted statement, to rip a SACD is to extract true DSD files from them. Totally in line with conventional wisdom. So, if, as you say, you have not extracted any file yet from those ISO images you have in your possession, then, according to Ted, you have ripped nothing. All you have is a collection of ISO disc images that you created (or somebody else created for you).  Now, if Ted decides to humor you and changes his statement to endorse your proclamation, then, out of the respect that he deserves for his hard work on this matter, I will gladly humor him and also endorse that proclamation.

Peace....................Mario

I have my own PS3, thank you and Mr Wicked is the creator of the ripping process which Ted has told us 1000s of times. LoL

If "all I have is a bunch of disk image files", then tell me why I am enjoying DSD playback at will?

All this brouhaha over semantics is unbecoming and I fail to see how this helps anyone. Get with the program.

[ted_b]

Yes, please use these terms or stop posting about SACD Ripping to DSD:
ripping:  using Mr Wicked's SACD ripper.pkg on the PS3 to rip ISO images from the otherwise protected SACD disc, to your hard drive
extracting:  to use the sacd_extract.exe (Windows or MAC) to extract DSF or DFF files from the aforementioned ISO.

There is no need to change the terminology.  It's not debatable.  That's what the tools are called, and that's what we call the processes in our project.  Sorry....

As Norman (Wisnon) and Tyson state, there are music players that will read the ISO directly (and not need you to extract to DSF or DFF).  In fact, at AXPONA this weekend Michal and I have discussed such comparisons.  I am tasked, this next week, to compare, both sonically and flexibility0wise, the differences between playing the ISO file and playing the stereo and multichannel extracted DSF files.  The ISO direct playback has huge convenience and storage benefits, but I'm concerned that they may sound different (because of on-the-fly extraction by the player..especially in multichannel) and they may not be able to be tagged anywhere as easily...let alone playlist flexibility, etc.  I will report back.

[sts9fan]

Yes, please use these terms or stop posting about SACD Ripping to

This isn't Russia. Is this Russia? This isn't Russia.

[rw@cn]

ISO is not a term invented by Mr. Wicked or others. It is a long standing term that has been in use for years and has a precise meaning. If you don't use it or use it incorrectly, then there is a lot of unneeded confusion and perhaps needless invective. 

[ted_b]

This isn't Russia. Is this Russia? This isn't Russia.

WHAT is your point??  That posting confusing terminology and debating it (when we already have the terminology) for semantics-sake is worth more discussion in the thread??  Really? 

So, no this isn't Russia, but it is a forum Circle that requires some focus and some moderation.  Start a new thread in a general Circle if you want to discuss the supposed vagueries of computer audio terminology, but please let's get back to topic.

[strocky]

Hello there from Bonnie Scotland, I've read this thread with interest as I'm about to home demo a Mytek 192 & Benchmark HGC2 DAC, however I'm looking for some advice regarding the best way to integrate a DSD DAC into my current system (See system breakdown below)

Anthem MRX 300 AV Amp with ARC (Required for my very bad room - laminate flooring, speaker next to large window, listening position in alcove)
Lyngdorf SDA2175 Poweramp (used to drive front speakers via Pre-Out of AV Amp)
Audiovector Mi3 Super Floorstanding Speakers + matching centre/rear for 5.1 System

I assume I could use the HT Bypass of the Benchmark DAC or the Analogue Input of the Mytek into the Pre-Out of my Anthem Amp?

However if I decided to go for a cheaper option in the TEAC UD-501 DAC, how would I integrate that into my AV Amp??

Another possible complication is that I'm still concerned that no matter how good the DAC is, my room would still get in the way, with this in mind would adding a Lyngdorf DPA-1 or RP-1 be helpful or would it be adding too many boxes into the mix?? (AV Amp, Poweramp, Processor & DAC)

[Hank]

Wow - semantics rodeo.  I've become interested in hi-rez and now this DSD topic.  I am not computer music literate, but my takeaway from all this is that I can't rip or extract or whatever from SACD's unless I use an old PS3 or ask someone who owns one, to do that for me.  Is that the bottom line - PS3 process or NO DSD enjoyment?
thanks