[John Casler]

I think one of the most misunderstood or misused terms in audio might be the "sweet spot".

To me the "Sweet Spot" is that "exact position" triangualted between two stereo speakers that offers the perfect balance of signal to fool the brain into thinking it is hearing what the microphones received and the equipment subsequently recorded of the original sonic event.

Because this "balance" is so precise, the image (soundstage) it creates cannot be achieved if you move to any position that does not retain that balance.

While it is true that a higher dispersion speaker might have a slightly (and i'm talking milimeters here) larger sweet spot laterally, but if we include the Soundstage and imaging as "sweet spot" requirements then it is generally only large enough for a single person.

So how can we get multiple sweet spots with a "lazer sharp" non-dispersant transducer like the VMPS?

I have found that the converging balance can be maintained and most of the sonic qualities at various points "between" the two speakers by moving forward and or backward on the triangulated midline.

That is, my "primary" sweet spot is sitting on my sofa nearfield about 7-8 feet from the speakers where I have them set to converge "exactly" on my ears.

But....

A secondary sweet spot is sitting directly behind the sofa about 9-10 feet from the speakers, which some of my visitors even prefer.  This provides a convergence point of a foot or two in front of you which I beleive is what Brian suggests.

Using this application I have also tried moving forward and having the speakers converge "behind my head" with excellent results, so it could be possible to actually have 3 reasonably good "sweet spots" for those times when you have a few buddies over and need more than one.

I don't know about you, but I really can't get into sitting really close to my buddies side by side. trying to cram two or three heads into the "triangulative convergence point"

I have also highly reccomended the "girlfriend" sitting in front of you on the sofa position for those with significant others who might also enjoy the soundstage.  This actually works "VERY" well. and of course might offer other advantages.

So the next time you hear the old "small sweet spot" routine, remember you have at least 3.  

I challenge anyone with "non-reflective" speakers to demonstrate more "high performance" (as in true to the original recording) sweet spots than that.  

It just doesn't happen

[Juan R]

I started about 2ft behind, right now I am about 6" to 12". I prefer the sound, but the only problem is when I go on the corner of the sofa(R or L) the sound is not balance like having the sweet spot a at 2ft.

[Sa-dono]

I have also highly reccomended the "girlfriend" sitting in front of you on the sofa position for those with significant others who might also enjoy the soundstage. This actually works "VERY" well.    and of course might offer other advantages.

I think this cuts down on the point of critical listening..except on listening to other sounds

I challenge anyone with "non-reflective" speakers to demonstrate more "high performance" (as in true to the original recording) sweet spots than that.

It just doesn't happen.  

*cough* Trinaural processor *cough* Meridian Trifield *cough* Logic 7 *cough*

Hey..you didn't say just two speakers in regards to this challenge

Here's another one to help you get that booty

[John Casler]

*cough* Trinaural processor *cough* Meridian Trifield *cough* Logic 7 *cough*  

SaDono,

Hope you're not catching something.  I know I won't be sharing the sweet spot with you Saturday.  

[Sa-dono]

SaDono,

Hope you're not catching something.  I know I won't be sharing the sweet spot with you Saturday.  

Nope..not catching anything And no worries..I don't want to be sharing any "sweat spot" with you anyways See you then

[doug s.]

hi john,

my present monitors have "conventional" drivers - focal ti inwerted dome tweets, & eton kevlar sandwich midwoofs.  the sound in the "sweet spot" is definitely better than when you're not centered between the speakers, both moving forward & backwards, per yer suggestions.  *but* - i still get a really nice soundstage, even when seated directly in front of one speaker, which i sometimes do, when friends come over & wanna hear my rig.  sometimes we share the sweet spot, both of us a bit off-center.  

this ability to get a decent soundstage when off-center is definitely speaker dependant.  the gr-research criterions, which i auditioned in my rig for a week, w/their similar, but smaller eton mid-woof, & ribbon tweet, were not at all enjoyable when listening off-center.  

personally, i would prefer a speaker w/wider dispersion, so i can listen off-axis.  while i generally sit in one of two spots, similar to what you describe - either 8'-9', or 12'-13' away, i generally prefer sitting next to someone when i'm listening w/friends, and, as ya mention, we don't get *that* intimate!

regards,

doug s.

[brad b]

Man, that was too easy....

[PLMONROE]

Now that you menton it, I thought that the  G spot was THE sweet spot, oh well.

[John Casler]

It's "G" spot, not sweet spot!!!!!!

I shoulda seen that coming  

[wshuff]

You should have seen it whating?  Or heard it coming?  More double entendre, John?

[John Casler]

You should have seen it whating?  Or heard it coming?  More double entendre, John?

You guys are a hard crowd.

I should have called it the "sweet seat" or the "Sonic Cockpit", or the Sonic Saddle, but I can see the same reslut.

As long as you're hearing the "magic" when you sit in it, it really doesn't matter what you call it.

[Housteau]

"I have also highly reccomended the "girlfriend" sitting in front of you on the sofa position for those with significant others who might also enjoy the soundstage. This actually works "VERY" well.  and of course might offer other advantages."

Quite a few years ago (70's I believe) MAD Magazine did a take-off article on the stereo sweet spot and it is basically how you have described it.  They illustrated the proper seating arrangements using specially designed sweet spot seating devices, both horizontally and vertically to accomodate a set numbers of listeners into one space.  I have several old issues, but can't seem to locate that one.  If I do, I will post a picture.  It is hilarious.

Dave

[John Casler]

my present monitors have "conventional" drivers - focal ti inwerted dome tweets, & eton kevlar sandwich midwoofs. the sound in the "sweet spot" is definitely better than when you're not centered between the speakers, both moving forward & backwards, per yer suggestions. *but* - i still get a really nice soundstage, even when seated directly in front of one speaker, which i sometimes do, when friends come over & wanna hear my rig. sometimes we share the sweet spot, both of us a bit off-center.

Hi Doug,

Very interesting.  How would you describe the soundstage/image you get when you are sitting directly in front of either speaker.

Does the solo performer still come from the center between the speakers?  Do you find it collapses in any way.  It is like one of the Disney "holograms" where it exists like 3-D no matter what angle you sit at?

With the VMPS, the people who converge their speakers as Brian suggests (about 1-2 feet in front of you) will too have an expanded sweetspot, by virtue of the closer speaker being at a more obtuse angle while the far speaker will be more on axis as you move to either side.

While this can increase the perception of the soundstage from more side positions, it is not as good as the "on axis" perceptions.

So knowing that you are a very critical listener and you have a great room (no side walls) and set up, I'm looking for what the real perception of soundstage is in the "off center" positions.

Knowing that the soundstage itself is the balanced combination of signals re-assembled to form the image, I'm wondering what you're hearing and how it is assembled into that image? (or if it is?)

And if it "is" what is sacrificed (if anything) in the detail department to acheive that result.  What I mean is that increased dispersion is like a Maglite Flashlight.   The beam of a Maglite, can be focused and sharp, or dispersed and fuzzy.

How does it sound?     And how would you describe it?

[doug s.]

hi john,

well, the sound definitely isn't as nice as when seated front-n-center, but it's still quite enjoyable.  the left-center-right soundstage spread is still pretty-much all present & accounted for - ie, if i'm sitting in front of the right speaker, i still hear the center image coming from betwen the speakers, but it's obviously now coming more from the left, as that's where the center now is.  the sounds from the left part of the soundstage are yust that much further away.  i lose sounds coming from the right of me, as i'm now obviously in front of that source, so sounds aren't coming at me from to the right of my seating position.  the whole presentation is similar to what happens when yure at a live music event, & are seated off to one side, as opposed to having a seat in the center of the stage.  

prolly what suffers the most is the perception of soundstage depth - this collapses quite a bit, but not entirely, and it's still enjoyable to listen to music from this position.  likely cuz the left-to right image is still present, and nothing at all is lost in the detail department.  all the sonic info is still there.  still a sharp "mag-lite" beam, not a fuzzy one!

more re: soundstage depth - i a-b'd cd & winyl copies of a patricia barbour album - modern cool - for a relative who has an all-digital rig.  he was in the sweet-spot, i was off to the side.  even from the side, the increased depth of the winyl was readily apparent; for my relative in the sweet spot, the difference was huge...  

i have had my speakers toed in so much that they cross in front of the listening position, a la vmps, & the off-center sound *is* better, for the reasons ya describe, but, as ya also describe, it's not best for the center seat, tho it really is a tiny degradation in my set-up - i lose yust a smidge of total soundstage width, w/no other negative effects.

bottom line is, much as i like my present set-up of electronics, i really think my room is my best piece of audio gear!   i think it's the room that allows me to get the most out of my gear.

regards,

doug s.

[warnerwh]

"bottom line is, much as i like my present set-up of electronics, i really think my room is my best piece of audio gear!  i think it's the room that allows me to get the most out of my gear. "

Doug: you hit the nail on the head. It surprises me how little about room acoustics is discussed.  The best electronics and speakers NEED good acoustics period.  Surprising how often people buy a new amp or some other piece of gear when it's the room where the best effect is to be had.

[doug s.]

warner, while i certainly could use a bit of room treatment, it's my room's size that really allows me to get the most of my gear.  at ~26x38x8.5, i really don't need that much.  i'd like some on the wall behind the speakers, but it's really not that big a deal, w/the speakers 5'-6' out into the room.  and, i would also like some sound absorption on the ceiling, at the 1st reflection points to the listening position...  some day...  

regards,

doug s.

[Housteau]

I agree that room acoustics are very important and often neglected.  I also believe there is a certain hierarchy at work here. To me, the room and speaker combination is one of the most important factors in determining the final sound of ones system. Next, I see the source components having the most influence. Lastly to me are the amplifiers and cables. Because they are last doesn't mean that I think of them as unimportant. I just feel that those other things mentioned must first be truely dialed in for them to make their strong impact.

For example: If you have a less than ideal listening space, or if your speakers are placed as a compromise to domestic tranquility, or multi-channel sound when listening to stereo, you are not hearing their full potential. In cases such as these, often small changes in speaker placement and room treatments will give much more of a positive change to the sound than a purchase of an expensive amplifier and / or cables.

However, if you have a room and speaker placement tweaked out to their
fullest potential, then the differences posed by audiophile cables and
amplifiers, as well as other gear can be noticed and may just be worth their price of admission.

Some could argue that the source components are the most important link in the chain. For my example above, I was assuming all high quality sources.

It is just that I have known too many people that have spent outrageous amounts of money on great gear that they will never ever be able to fully appreciate. That is due to either not having a proper listening space, not having a clue on how to set things up, or not making listening their primary activity. What I mean is, they love music and good sound, but it is not their only focus when the music is playing. They walk around and/or do other things at the same time, basically making it more of a background thing.  There is nothing wrong with that, but realistically, just about any good average department store stereo can serve in that capacity.

When friends often ask me what they should buy, or what is a good stereo, I first ask what their listening habits are.  In all honesty, if they do not truely listen to music and just enjoy hearing it, I tell them is doesn't matter what they buy.  They will not be able to hear the audiophile differences in high end gear and it would not be worth it to them.  

To me, owning an ultra high quality audiophile system without having
the proper room, set-up and listening habits, is like owning a world class sports car with only stone and gravel roads to drive it on.

Dave

[doug s.]

dave, i look at this a bit differently.  1st off, i tink the room, all by itself, is the most important factor.  sure, speaker/room interface is important, but, once the room itself is sorted out, then ya have many different speakers that will work in it, depending on yer personal tastes.  

as far as the electronics go, i feel the preamp is the most important single piece of equipment.  partly cuz this is the one piece of gear that will interface w/all the others.  partly, it's yust based upon my own experiences.  

like most, the upgading of my rig has occurred over time - a new widget here, doo-dad there, etc.   well, if i had to go back to the last piece of equipment for every single item, except one, it would be my preamp that would remain.  i could go back to my old cj walker turntable instead of the oracle, the nad cd instead of the aiwa, the ec amps instead of the mesa baron, the adcom sub amps instead of the ec amps, etc...  but, the preamp is what makes everyting work.  its strengths are always there, the other gear yust adds or subtracts, in warying degrees.  

my prior pre's were nice - electrocompaniet ec-1a, then linn kairn, followed by rogue magnum 99 (well *most* of my prior pre's were nice!   ), then cary slp-98.  they all did some stuff well, everyting else was flavored by them  - amps, source gear, speakers.  well, my present pre, a fully updated melos ma333/music director yust does it all - soundstaging, detail, dynamics, extension, neutrality, everyting.  if the best dodd pre is better than this thing, well it must be *really* awesome!    

as far as speakers go, well, there's so much personal taste inwolved here, & there's so much difference in the way that the electronics actually interface w/the movement of the air molecules, what w/ribbons, horns, dynamic drivers of every diffferent material, even gas-ion drivers - well, i'm not sure even *i* know which speakers i like the best!  

regards,

doug s.

[Housteau]

"dave, i look at this a bit differently. 1st off, i tink the room, all by itself, is the most important factor. sure, speaker/room interface is important, but, once the room itself is sorted out, then ya have many different speakers that will work in it, depending on yer personal tastes."

Actually, we do agree.  I didn't mean to imply that the brand or type of speaker made the difference, but rather it's proper placement within the room that was important.  That is what I meant by the speaker/room interface.  It all begins with the room.  In any case, a good room aids in everything one is trying to achieve.

"as far as the electronics go, i feel the preamp is the most important single piece of equipment. partly cuz this is the one piece of gear that will interface w/all the others. partly, it's yust based upon my own experiences."

Yes, I see your point, especially for LP playback (I also have an Oracle).  

Dave