[nathanm]

My other motivation for putting the monitors on the sub cabs was to avoid stands for asthetic reasons.  I made some stands of my own out of pipe, MDF and adjustable acorn nut "spikes" (gotta find some place that sells lead shot though) which turned out fine, but still I thought it would look better with the dual subs as stands, and the VMPS smallers are the correct height.  My room has no available pair of corners to stick the subs in anyway (believe me I've tried, but the architect decided that putting doors in prime subwoofer locations was a better idea! What a jerk! )

Also, I was inspired by listening to audiojerry's ex-B&W Matrix 801s which were basically a tiny little mid\tweeter box sitting on top of a big burly bass box.  Those weren't too shabby when we cranked up Hans Zimmer's "Gladiator" efforts.  The Waveform Machs also have the same kind of idea of a really beveled mid\tweet speaker perched on a larger bass cab.  I figured the VMPS smallers would be one possible way to jury rig up a similar scenario.

I also recall Brian Cheney saying 'round here that having a "beard" or flat surface in the front of the stand was a Good Thing.  Although Val's website suggests the opposite for best imaging performance.  

It remains to be seen what my tastes will be if I can get a more favorable tonal balance.  3D imaging might seem not so important then.  Not sure.  Although, I think that the 'trick' of 3D imaging might be a more apartment-friendly sonic attribute to shoot for instead of hammering low end, sadly.

[Val]

The RM 40 does have a fair amount of area...but the mids only start at 166Hz....its the woofers im talking about...and i'm an ex-owner of the  Legacy Focus with 3-12" woofers per side, crossing at 180Hz.  I will not tell you that the Focus did many things well, but it DID do upper bass well if a bit bloated.
I have heard few if any speakers that can recreate a plucked bass string or a small tom drum hit with similar realism.

I haven't heard the RM-40, but its 10-inch upper woofer would seem more than adequate diameter-wise, provided it is balanced with the lower one (and the ribbons, of course). Sometimes the culprit is the room and its gain, you can bump up the upper bass but then it may sound bloated lower down. As I write this I'm re-reading DeWulf's RM-40 review. He also talks about the speaker needing current and some amps sounding "too lean and lacking dimensional warmth" due to their high damping factors and resulting extreme control of the woofers.

I am familiar with the Focus and liked its bass too, one of the best I've heard, but I disliked almost everything else, no bracing (I had the same experience with old VMPS speakers), it sounded to me like the midrange was stepped down from the bass and the treble stepped down from the midrange. The midrange driver is a jewel that sounds very clean, though.

Sure, you could put low bass subs in the corners for great, room enforced low bass, but you certainly would not want them to cross up around 200Hz.  That would make for all sorts of weird phasing issues.

I totally agree. I would never go above 90Hz or 100Hz with a subwoofer, and that I make very clear in the articles I have written.

Take a look at most manufacturers top speakers...they typically do not use separate subs....and...the reason is that they want to crossover  those woofers up high to maximize their upper bass presence.

Now we're talking compromises and big differences in price. If you want a full-range speaker system of reasonable price and size, my point is that you have to use a subwoofer with monitors. The combination, if well done, is much better than anything at three or more times the price.

[rosconey]

val

you have to go to an expensive floorstander like the Vandersteen 5, that steadily decreases the driver diameter as the frequency increases. Audio is a compromised endeavor.



that is what happened by accident-tweeter, dome mid, woofer ,woofer and one side of my large sub-12" is left channel, 15" is right.
t-m-w-w-sw, cut off of 90 because thats all my rxv-1 will allow, have bass set to bolth and mains set to large.
works good with each speaker having a easier time because of a smaller range to work in,but crossovers get bigger, more complicated and harder to do properly(thats why i didnt do it ), and power also becomes a issue now, but i got that covered.

[Val]

I also recall Brian Cheney saying 'round here that having a "beard" or flat surface in the front of the stand was a Good Thing.  Although Val's website suggests the opposite for best imaging performance.

Jeez, I can barely keep timing here

I was going to include a better explanation for not using a flat surface in front, but I lost the original article in a hard disk failure, a long and educating one from Martin Colloms, himself a good monitor-loving Brit. Anyway that is also my experience of many years. A good monitor deserves to be placed well into the room for what it does best, midrange and treble, imaging and soundstaging. A pair of good SWs can easily take care of the rest. By the way, Focus Audio, another Canadian company, makes a great minimonitor, FS-688, perfect for a small to medium room:

http://www.focusaudio.com/index1.htm">Focus FS-688

[Q]

"I haven't heard the RM-40, but its 10-inch upper woofer would seem more than adequate diameter-wise, provided it is balanced with the lower one (and the ribbons, of course). Sometimes the culprit is the room and its gain, you can bump up the upper bass but then it may sound bloated lower down. As I write this I'm re-reading DeWulf's RM-40 review. He also talks about the speaker needing current and some amps sounding "too lean and lacking dimensional warmth" due to their high damping factors and resulting extreme control of the woofers."

Well, the 10-inch is more like 9 if you measure, and the upper woofer from what I understand isnt rolled in until lower in the freq range....which is why i would augment the RM40 with woofers (hate to call them subs).

[/quote]
Now we're talking compromises and big differences in price. If you want a full-range speaker system of reasonable price and size, my point is that you have to use a subwoofer with monitors. The combination, if well done, is much better than anything at three or more times the price.[/quote]

True, but if you could take that same monitor/and twin subs (that can handle higher freqs), and change the crossover to ~180Hz I think the results would be far better....taking LF strain off the midbass, and gaining radiating area for the upper bass.

[doug s.]

a few thoughts...

re this statement:

"...Take a look at most manufacturers top speakers...they typically do not use separate subs....and...the reason is that they want to crossover those woofers up high to maximize their upper bass presence...."

in fact *many* mfrs' top models have separate sub modules, designed to either flank, or go under the monitors.
============
having subs flanking the monitors, or being used as stands, seems to give a more accurate soundstage, ime, but won't necessarily give the most bass response, as room reinforcement isn't optimized.
============
if i were using only one sub, besides having the ((at least 24db/octave) x-over set as low as possible (which i do w/two subs, as well), i would have the sub centered exactly between the speakers, & in the near-field, if possible.  "lowboy" style subs would work best for this, obviously.
============
brian cheney suggests actively crossing over the the rm40's low-mid frequencies w/a 24db/octave x-over, at ~200hz.  this may give better upper bass response.  and, as the latest fst tweets cross over at 7khz instead of the spiral ribbons' 10khz, perhaps the midrange ribbons' performance is also improved yust above 200hz...
============
good upper bass response may in fact be driver-quality dependent, not yust driver size/quantity dependent.  i listen to a *lot* of percussion music, & i get excellent results (in a large room) w/monitors w/a focal inverted tweet crossed over to a single 7" eton kevlar-sandwich driver.  (similar to the 5.5" drivers that gr-research is using in their criterion's & diluceo's.)  the monitors are crossed over to subs flanking the monitors.
============

ymmv,

doug s.

[Q]

a few thoughts...

in fact *many* mfrs' top models have separate sub modules, designed to either flank, or go under the monitors.
+++++
MOST manufacturers DO NOT have monitors as their top models!
============
having subs flanking the monitors, or being used as stands, seems to give a more accurate soundstage, ime, but won't necessarily give the most bass response, as room reinforcement isn't optimized.
+++++
Again, you're talking bass, im talking upper bass, and in some folks jargon, it is lower midrange!
============
if i were using only one sub, besides having the ((at least 24db/octave) x-over set as low as possible (which i do w/two subs, as well), i would have the sub centered exactly between the speakers, & in the near-field, if possible.  "lowboy" style subs would work best for this, obviously.
============
+++++
Not sure what you mean by "lowboy", so i assume it is a floor firing driver.  I must reiterate that those only work reasonably well with the lowest freqs..like 60Hz and below.

brian cheney suggests actively crossing over the the rm40's low-mid frequencies w/a 24db/octave x-over, at ~200hz.  this may give better upper bass response.  and, as the latest fst tweets cross over at 7khz instead of the spiral ribbons' 10khz, perhaps the midrange ribbons' performance is also improved yust above 200hz...
===========
I wonder why he recommends 24db/octave when the stock one is reported to be 6db/oct.  I assume it is to keep phase alignment, and that 24 is common with active xovers.  

good upper bass response may in fact be driver-quality dependent, not yust driver size/quantity dependent.  i listen to a *lot* of percussion music, & i get excellent results (in a large room) w/monitors w/a focal inverted tweet crossed over to a single 7" eton kevlar-sandwich driver.  (similar to the 5.5" drivers that gr-research is using in their criterion's & diluceo's.)  the monitors are crossed over to subs flanking the monitors.
============
+++++
The Legacy focus used twin 7"Eton kevlars, and yes I think they did a great job, but I think there was some audible residual ringing with the kevlar drivers.  These great drivers were also in the Legacy Whisper (quantity=4 per side!) and that was a lesson in area...you owe yourself an audition of these.....all you would need is a good tweeter to replace that crappy dome and ribbon!...but the presence and imaging was OUTsanding.
Sure, we are talking big money, but i stress AREA again.  Yes, it all starts with quality drivers, but thats only part of the equation.   Why do you suppose planar speakers are so popular....they suck for resolution and dynamics, and bass...but its the sheer area of radiation that gives them the realism across the range.
Frankly i have not heard ANY system with a single 6.5-7" driver handling freqs down below 150Hz that come close to reproducing percussion accureately.  UNLESS you are sitting within a few feet of them, I dont see how!  This is the trouble I have with big name(read big $) small speaker guys like B&W...to me all these sound anemic at best.
ymmv,

doug s.

[doug s.]

hi q,

re: mfr's using monitors as their top model, i mean any speaker w/the low end in a separate box.  even the $140k genesis speakers have separate woofer towers to accompany their *monitors*.  other speakers w/separate woofers include aerial acoustics, ensemble, huff, german physiks, avantgarde acoustics, wisdom audio, yust to name a few off the top of my head.

by lowboy, a down-firing driver sub would qualify, but forward-firing drivers would also work.  ie: the latest iteration of vmps' larger sub would make a good coffee-table in front of the listening position, while my older-style upright vmps subs woodn't do at all...

re: brian cheneys' speakers, he actually offers an active x-over option (dunno its specs), but he said my marchand would work quite well...

i heard the whispers a few years back, at a show, & was not at all impressed.  in fact, i thought imaging was one of its weak spots. (poor room, perhaps?)  i definitely liked its dynamics, tho!  and i am familiar w/the legacy's eton mid/woof - it is the *exact* same driver in my meret re monitors.  the drivers are not that spendy, at ~$90 a pop...

my room is large - ~26x38x8.5 - and i get good percussion response w/only two of the etons.  i remember coming back from wolftrap once, after hearing the kodo drummers perform.  man, were *they* awesome!     anyway, i turned on the stereo, & cranked up a nice kodo cd i had.  while it certainly wasn't live, both i & my wife were amazed how realistic it really sounded.  of course, there is *always* room for improvement - i wish the budget could swing a pair of vmps rm40's, or a pair of gr-research alpha-ls'...

regards,

doug s.

[Val]

We have to agree beforehand that we're all talking compromises and personal preferences. There are very few absolute truths in audio, it is mostly about what set of compromises pleases you more than (the many) others. Can somebody say the strange-looking (I think is great modern art) $44,000 B&W Nautilus, with 12" woofers and 5" flat lower mid (crossed over at 220Hz) is not a great speaker? Or the $41,500 Rockport Antares, with the very famous Skaaning 13" and 6" (crossed over at a low 130Hz!) drivers? I suppose some would still prefer a huge planar, but how can one say those speakers aren't any good? Say, four 6-inchers would move a lot more air, but is that the only valid compromise? No amount of Legacy midranges would hold a candle to either of those speakers, in my opinion. The only problem is that to make all the compromises reasonably acceptable, they cost a lot of money.

Val

[John Casler]

I think some of the problems nathanm is trying to resolve is exactly what i've talking about with upper bass.  Ive been thinking about doing exactly the same thing with RM40s...(except the subs would be off to the sides) since both times Ive heard them, they sound thin in the upper bass...and by that i mean in the 150-200 Hz area.  It is by far the best speaker I have heard otherwise.  

Hi Q,

While I'm all for augmenting the Bass of the RM40 (I have a pair) I recently found a new configuration (tweak) that may help you with your 150-200 Hz area.

If the RM40s you listened to had the "toggle" switch and were powered by a single amp (not biamped or bi-wired) they can or could be seriously improved by simply running the toggle in the "UP" position and either "bi-wiring", or running a single jumper from one pair of binding posts to the next.

The difference in upper bass and lower midrange impact and clairity is night and day.  It is much more "punchy" and detailed with no overhang.

Now they will not sound "bloated" like cones but I have several reference tracks I use to judge this area.  One is a solo Bass Guitar cut that is absolutley breathtaking.

Anything with good Tympani in it can also be used to judge this area.

The Timpani's energy is centered in the upper-bass and lower-midrange, between 75Hz and 200Hz.

I had both the Legacy SigIIIs and The Focus and right now (after tweaking) my RM40s are far more balanced (actually through all the frequencies)

And I might add that although many might argue this point I "do not agree" that a monitor will inherantly "image" better than a floorstander.

"If"  that floor stander is the RM40 (or other Ribbon Monitor)  I have been working on soundstage and imaging since Jon Dahlquist and Saul Marantz visited me, and my DQ10s almost 30 years ago.

I have listened to and set up more systems than I can count and have never heard any better or realistic soundstage than what I have currently.

I do have a few special tricks that produce this Sonic Hologram, but it is done with one "huuuuge" speaker.  (the RM40)

But anyhow I digress,

If you listen to the RM40s again (hopefully they are set up properly) take along a pair of 10" jumpers and try my "toggle up" tweak and see if it makes any difference to the lower midrange and upper bass your looking for.

Oh and if it is SS and isn't at least 250wpc @ 8ohms it won't sound its best anyhow.

And one final shot.  Since the RM40 is crossed over to the ribbon at 166hz, if the midrange pot is set too high, it will reduce the amount of bass energy from the upper woofer at any given volume.  This will throw off the "balance" in that range.

It might be interesting to slightly "dial down" that Midrange pot a bit too, if you still don't get the sonic results you're looking for.

All the best,

Regards,
 
John Casler
 
VMPS LA CA USA
SUMMIT Audio Video
310-446-0138
800-320-6884 (order desk)
bioforce.inc@gte.net
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;system=72
http://my.register.com/summitaudiovideo.com/index.html

[Q]

We have to agree beforehand that we're all talking compromises and personal preferences. There are very few absolute truths in audio, it is mostly about what set of compromises pleases you more than (the many) others. Can somebody say the strange-looking (I think is great modern art) $44,000 B&W Nautilus, with 12" woofers and 5" flat lower mid (crossed over at 220Hz) is not a great speaker? Or the $41,500 Rockport Antares, with the very famous Skaaning 13" and 6" (crossed over at a low 130Hz!) drivers? I suppose some would still prefer a huge planar, but how can one say those speakers aren't any good? Say, four 6-inchers would move a lot more air, but is that the only valid compromise? No amount of Legacy midranges would hold a candle to either of those speakers, in my opinion. The only problem is that to make all the compromises reasonably acceptable, they cost a lot of money.

Val

Yes, you are right about compromises, and I have no idea what any of those speakers sound like (due to cost!), although if the B&W Nautilus sounds anything like the Nautilus 801, I dont want any part of it....I'd listen to the Legacy all day before that product.....but thats my opinion.  Hey...if you like it, listen to it, period.  I'm simply relating a few of my experiences for the benefit of some strange people who spend way too much on a silly hobby!, and in the process, hope to gain some knowledge about my next purchase!

[Val]

Sorry if my post appeared too forceful or a rant, that wasn't my intention. I just wanted to point out that those speakers and several highly-rated others use a small driver or two to reproduce midrange, in fact, many or bigger drivers like Legacy uses are rare in audio. You're so right about mentioning the N801! I have it as a bad example in my website, but due to it using a huge driver for the midrange and having coherence problems as a result!

Val

[Q]

Hi Q,

While I'm all for augmenting the Bass of the RM40 (I have a pair) I recently found a new configuration (tweak) that may help you with your 150-200 Hz area.

If the RM40s you listened to had the "toggle" switch and were powered by a single amp (not biamped or bi-wired) they can or could be seriously improved by simply running the toggle in the "UP" position and either "bi-wiring", or running a single jumper from one pair of binding posts to the next.

The difference in upper bass and lower midrange impact and clairity is night and day.  It is much more "punchy" and detailed with no overhang.

Now they will not sound "bloated" like cones but I have several reference tracks I use to judge this area.  One is a solo Bass Guitar cut that is absolutley breathtaking.

Anything with good Tympani in it can also be used to judge this area.

The Timpani's energy is centered in the upper-bass and lower-midrange, between 75Hz and 200Hz.

I had both the Legacy SigIIIs and The Focus and right now (after tweaking) my RM40s are far more balanced (actually through all the frequencies)

And I might add that although many might argue this point I "do not agree" that a monitor will inherantly "image" better than a floorstander.

"If"  that floor stander is the RM40 (or other Ribbon Monitor)  I have been working on soundstage and imaging since Jon Dahlquist and Saul Marantz visited me, and my DQ10s almost 30 years ago.

I have listened to and set up more systems than I can count and have never heard any better or realistic soundstage than what I have currently.

I do have a few special tricks that produce this Sonic Hologram, but it is done with one "huuuuge" speaker.  (the RM40)

But anyhow I digress,

If you listen to the RM40s again (hopefully they are set up properly) take along a pair of 10" jumpers and try my "toggle up" tweak and see if it makes any difference to the lower midrange and upper bass your looking for.

Oh and if it is SS and isn't at least 250wpc @ 8ohms it won't sound its best anyhow.

And one final shot.  Since the RM40 is crossed over to the ribbon at 166hz, if the midrange pot is set too high, it will reduce the amount of bass energy from the upper woofer at any given volume.  This will throw off the "balance" in that range.

It might be interesting to slightly "dial down" that Midrange pot a bit too, if you still don't get the sonic results you're looking for. ]
+++++++++++++
Yes, i did hear the RM40 both biamped and single amped, but i couldnt tell you if the toggle switch was in correct position.  One place used a B&K amp, and the other used a Cinepro for the bass and something i dont remember for the uppers.

I did do some moving of the mid and tweet pot while listening, and couldnt get the results i wanted.   Sure wish I could audition your setup.  Curious if you use a sub or augmented bass with your setup??

There is no question about the smoothness of the RM40s...some of the most coherent and smooth over the freq range speakers ive had the priviledge of hearing.  Smoothness (or the lack of) is THE reason i no longer own the Legacys.  BUT..i moved to twin 6.5 PHL/Raven drivers and  and frankly, i cant stand to listen to it for more than a minute....and thats mostly because it just sux in the whole bass region....albeit more smooth than the Focus.

Hell, I REALLY like these speakers, with that ONE exception,....upper bass, and impact realism.  Maybe I should just buy the darn things and find out for myself!
Q

[John Casler]

Yes, i did hear the RM40 both biamped and single amped, but i couldnt tell you if the toggle switch was in correct position.  One place used a B&K amp, and the other used a Cinepro for the bass and something i dont remember for the uppers.

I did do some moving of the mid and tweet pot while listening, and couldnt get the results i wanted.   Sure wish I could audition your setup.  Curious if you use a sub or augmented bass with your setup??

There is no question about the smoothness of the RM40s...some of the most coherent and smooth over the freq range speakers ive had the priviledge of hearing.  Smoothness (or the lack of) is THE reason i no longer own the Legacys.  BUT..i moved to twin 6.5 PHL/Raven drivers and  and frankly, i cant stand to listen to it for more than a minute....and thats mostly because it just sux in the whole bass region....albeit more smooth than the Focus.

Hell, I REALLY like these speakers, with that ONE exception,....upper bass, and impact realism.  Maybe I should just buy the darn things and find out for myself!
Q

Hi Q,

Most likely if the owner was "bi-amping" he knew enough to put the toggle in the up position.  And Cinepro is a great amp for bass.

As far as the "pots", I think many people run them too high.  Generally they start with them around 12:00 or higher.

The beauty of the Ribbons is enticing and some even turn them up higher.  While this does increase the "air and presence" at any given volume level, it also reduces the overall signal that goes to the upper and lower woofs in comparison.

The pots should be looked at as "volume controls" for "balancing" treble to Midrange to bass frequencies.

I now have my pots at about 9:00 MR and 9:30 Treble. (and I may be reducing it even further)

And yes, I do use a LARGER Sub, but only for frequencies below 40Hz.  My RM40s are run full range (for music) and have effective response down to about 25Hz.

Rolling the Larger in at 40Hz actually augments from about 28 down to 15Hz

Should you find yourself in Los Angeles, you are certainly invited to stop in for a listen.

And if you do decide to make the RM40 "leap", I'm always here for you

Regards,
 
John Casler
 
VMPS LA CA USA
SUMMIT Audio Video
310-446-0138
800-320-6884 (order desk)
bioforce.inc@gte.net
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;system=72
http://my.register.com/summitaudiovideo.com/index.html