[nathanm]

In my search for an imposing, ass-kicking, full bandwidth floorstanding tower speaker that produces slamming bass in full stereophonic glory from an area in the same gereral vicinity as the mid and highs, that I can afford  I've realized it seems mostly hopeless.  Anything that reaches down below 40Hz costs thousands and thousands.  So here's one idea I had.  A pair of VMPS Smaller Subs used as the bass section for a quasi-full range tower, with monitors perched atop said subwoofer boxes.  I figure this allows me to take the bass response out of the equation, (desired criterion #1) which seems to be precisely what makes floorstanders so unreachably expensive, and concentrate on finding monitors that image well, which is desired criterion #2.

Anyone using this method?  Also, where might I find a picture of the smaller sub sans grill cloth and\or from different angles?

The site says the XO range is 250 and below, do they play well enough in that mid bass area without sounding sluggish or muddy?  I have the New Larger and I know that when I crank up the XO point beyond 120Hz they sound pretty lousy but I figure this must simply be due to the fact that the sub is not physically near the rest of the drivers.

I just have this gut feeling I will be more satisfied with my system if I can get the bass lined up with the rest and have it coming from two points in space, not three.  Hmmm...

[doug s.]

nate,

on a different tack, ya may wanna try a used pair of thiel 3.5' s.  -2db at 20hz, and amazing imaging/soundstaging.  less than $1k used.  in fact, there's a pair near me f/s on a-gon right now (unless they're awreddy gone), for ~$700.  the seller sez they sound better w/o the active eq, i say he's nuts, unless yure subwoofin'...  the 3.5's require good amplification, w/lotsa current...

doug s.

oh yeah, vmps also makes a wersion of their smaller sub profiled like the 626, designed to be used as a stand...

[dubravko]

Also, where might I find a picture of the smaller sub sans grill cloth and\or from different angles?

http://www.vmpseurope.com/e/p-sub.htm
There's a Smaller Sub from only one angle, but this one shows it all. At the middle of the back side are speakers terminals and a potentiometer. I can email you a larger picture.

[rosconey]

nathanm,
take a look at my gallery, i think its close to what you are looking to do.
i got my large sub and had my 3.5 ways designed to match it. i like stand mounts, i think they are easier to place and image better.do you run your large in stereo -mine is crossed at 90 from my yamy rxv-1 it has mono and stereo lfe outs,i also use it as a speaker stand for one side.
the 3.5 ways are done by rick craig based on the phast-est.
these speakers are a super match with the sub, everything compliments everthing else, no gaps in  imaging and sound stage, vocals are smooth and bass that covers you.i would love to add another large

[warnerwh]

Here's a pair of smaller subs that are supposed to be in excellent condition on ebay, also there's some good pics:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3275&item=3021586039&rd=1

[nathanm]

Ooooh, thanks for the link warner!  Those look quite sharp.  Of course, they'd need some black paint on the bottom though.

[Val]

A pair of VMPS Smaller Subs used as the bass section for a quasi-full range tower, with monitors perched atop said subwoofer boxes.  I figure this allows me to take the bass response out of the equation, (desired criterion #1) which seems to be precisely what makes floorstanders so unreachably expensive, and concentrate on finding monitors that image well, which is desired criterion #2.

nathanm, why do you want to discard the advantages of having monitors at their best locations for imaging and subwoofers at corners for best bass, while getting some of the worst characteristics of full-range speakers (a big resonating stand, compromised imaging and bass) through the back door, so to speak?

Let's suppose, for the sake of the discussion, a good room, a pair of Ellis 1801 or GR Diluceos or Criterions on stands crossed over, say, at 60Hz or 80Hz via a good electronic crossover (Marchand XM44) to a pair of VMPS Smallers or Originals (or DIY Cable Signatures with Hypex HS200) placed at room corners; provided you can get the phase correct (the room gain with DIY Sigs should be OK), isn't a combination like that a better one?

In my website audio section I have written a pair of articles (the second one mainly) that deal with exactly this problem. I should not expect everybody to agree with everything I say there, but I think I have a point.

Val

[nathanm]

Val:
Well, having the main speakers sitting on the sub cabs is not etched in stone, it's just what makes the most sense to me at the moment.  I feel it makes sense to have ALL the frequencies emanating from as close a point in space as can be practical.  My Larger is now sitting directly inbetween the mains.  I've also had it in the corner and behind my chair as well.  To me it still sounds boomy and directional no matter where I put it.  I know much of this is because of the too-small 13x14' room, but there's not a whole lot I can do about that.  (I do have foam bass traps, but need more to fill in the gaps)  

I also want to set the XO point higher on the subs so I get more mid bass roar in the 60-90Hz area.  If a single sub is located away from the rest of the frequency output at a higher XO point it sounds distracting and 'wrong'.  Just doesn't gel properly.  So that's why I felt having two subs would be easier to manage and allow me to have the big drivers moving more air, thus hopefully getting a more thick, chunky sound overall which is exactly what I need to do proper justice to metal guitar.

I have a Behringer XO now but am patiently waiting for IRD to finish theirs.  The Marchand is too expensive I think.  I will have a look at said website.  Thanks for the input!

[Val]

Like you say, your room may not be good. I haven't had good results either with only one sub on a corner unless crossed over low (although sometimes a high-order filter works), or placed between the speakers.

Val

[nathanm]

I've also thought about putting the sub in another room, cause it seems the bass sounds louder from every room in the apartment BESIDES the listening room! Heh!  Long cable run, though!

[sharper]

In my search for an imposing, ass-kicking, full bandwidth floorstanding tower speaker that produces slamming bass in full stereophonic glory from an area in the same gereral vicinity as the mid and highs, that I can afford  I've realized it seems mostly hopeless.

It's not hopeless. There's a guy on audiogon who's selling his VMPS Super Towers. He's asking $450.  This speaker produces unbelievable bass response and power. They are phenomenal with heavy metal.  It's mind blowing. You can play Motorhead insanely loud. And Brian might be able to offer you newer mids and tweeters as upgrades for the mids and highs. I think there may be a review of it on the VMPS web site.

[Val]

I suppose the Super Towers wouldn't comply with nathanm's criterion 2. Big and bulky pieces of furniture trembling all over and thus not imaging that well and dissapearing like an elephant.

[nathanm]

Sharper: Yep, I've seen that ad for the older model VMPS tower.  Seems like nobody wants 'em.  I thought for the price they'd be gone quickly.  Poor guy.  Dreadfully ugly photos nonwithstanding, I was a bit reminded of my old Fischer speakers which didn't exhibit any magical 3D qualities, even though the VMPS would most likely sound MUCH better.  Also, they are rather ugly speakers IMO.   Well, maybe they have a cool '70s vibe perhaps.  I've been rather hesitant about those. Straight boxes just don't do it for me.  

What I really want are the Waveform Mach Solos. *swoon*  But I still worry about the bass response.

[sharper]

What I really want are the Waveform Mach Solos.

Another Canadian speaker. Are they expensive in the used market? I would have thought their value would have dropped significantly given that the company has been defunct for a while (unless I'm unaware that they've resumed business).

[markC]

Way off topic-sorry,but, Sharper I,m just north of Toronto. Perhaps we could get together one day and compare notes/systems? It would be great to meet a fellow ACer.

[Q]

I think some of the problems nathanm is trying to resolve is exactly what i've talking about with upper bass.  Ive been thinking about doing exactly the same thing with RM40s...(except the subs would be off to the sides) since both times Ive heard them, they sound thin in the upper bass...and by that i mean in the 150-200 Hz area.  It is by far the best speaker I have heard otherwise.  
It is easy to find subs that reach low into the 20s, but it is not easy to find a speaker with lots of radiating area above the sub cutoff.  Most folks who are into percussion, or extremely dynamic recordings would agree that tons of area in that region is crucial for realism.  
My point:  I like your ideas of keeping the subs close to the mains, but try crossing them up close to 200Hz.  Yes, this does present phasing issues, but you should be able to dial that out with proper crossover.  And please do not get a downfiring sub unless you are crossing over at 50Hz or lower.

I also agree that the bass is directional as you have found,...because it is exciting higher harmonics from the cabinet and things around it....you will find that the louder the bass is played, the more directional it will become for this reason.  Therefore, Unless you have a VERY dead room including low frequencies, then definitely place your subs close to the mains.
Good Luck.

[Val]

Who said this was easy? Q brings interesting items to the discussion table.

J. Gordon Holt's 1985 article Down With Flat! and follow-ups (see below) addressed the subjective effects of a flat frequency response. The range just above the upper bass has to be bumped up a bit for the speaker to sound big and present, like a good horn. I agree with this and have tried it with equalizers, but I suppose a TacT system would provide a definitive cure for this and other frequency and room-related problems. I am also upset, for example, with speakers that aren't balanced according to the 50k rule (also in the article), like minimonitors without a sub, that sound bright to me, and I used to dislike flat treble (not anymore with my old age).

But doesn't the RM-40 have lots of radiating area with all those ribbons? That is one of the things Martin G. deWulf liked about it, if I remember well his rave BFS review.

I disagree with Q about subs. Stereo subs are OK in room corners, provided their cabinets are well- braced internally, as in any quality speaker, and that the crossover filter is a high-order one. After all, we are assuming good rooms and high-quality speakers.

Val

http://www.stereophile.com/fullarchives.cgi?138">Down With Flat!

[rosconey]

maybe thats a by product of trying to make too small a speaker to work with subwoofers.everyone wants a single 6" or 7" driver and a tweeter speaker to cover down low(40-60) and just fill in with a sub at the bottom,no driver to cover the upper bass, i never been a good follower thats why i use 2-6.5inchers , a dome mid and tweeter in as small a sealed cabinet as rick craig could design. i think stand mounts are easier to place and image better, add in the fact that it has 2 woofers to cover upper bass down and you have stand mounts that are good at clean & solid  bass as most towers, heck some days i forget to turn on the sub amp and listen for hours before i realise it, but when i do turn on the sub (stereo)it adds alot more depth and space to the bass.another one of my quirks is to add the best amp to my sub as i can afford, i dont want 600 watts of digital power, i want good old fashioned solid class a-a/b power.cant remember what company it was but the other day i saw a web page that had the top of the line subs with 200 watt class a/b amps and the lower priced ones had big digital amps at two and three times the power.thats why i have odyssey monos on the way for my large vmps sub
   if more people had a chance to listen to my speakers  rick would have this years-- flavor of the month speaker

[Q]

The RM 40 does have a fair amount of area...but the mids only start at 166Hz....its the woofers im talking about...and i'm an ex-owner of the  Legacy Focus with 3-12" woofers per side, crossing at 180Hz.  I will not tell you that the Focus did many things well, but it DID do upper bass well if a bit bloated.
I have heard few if any speakers that can recreate a plucked bass string or a small tom drum hit with similar realism.  

Im just not going to buy other speakers until i can get this back.

I will agree with you about subs in corners...but..again this is the difference between low bass and upper bass.  Sure, you could put low bass subs in the corners for great, room enforced low bass, but you certainly would not want them to cross up around 200Hz.  That would make for all sorts of weird phasing issues.

Take a look at most manufacturers top speakers...they typically do not use separate subs....and...the reason is that they want to crossover  those woofers up high to maximize their upper bass presence.

[Val]

maybe thats a by product of trying to make too small a speaker to work with subwoofers. everyone wants a single 6" or 7" driver and a tweeter speaker to cover down low(40-60) and just fill in with a sub at the bottom, no driver to cover the upper bass

Small drivers can't reproduce midbass or lowbass well. For that you need a big driver (12, 15 or 18-inch) or several smaller ones (3 x 10, 4 x 10-inch) that can move a lot of air to give you realistic bass impact and slam. On the other hand, allowing those biggies to cover frequencies above upper bass and well into the midrange is the inverse sin, as most would be too slow. Other than using a big SW and a high-quality small monitor, you have to go to an expensive floorstander like the Vandersteen 5, that steadily decreases the driver diameter as the frequency increases. Audio is a compromised endeavor.

In my previous post I forgot to mention that Holt's suggestion of elevating the upper bass and lower midrange a bit is good for reproducing symphonic music and big orchestras, but exaggerating it will result in chesty male vocals and a wrong sound on other types of music. One example I tested at length at home is the B&W N805. Its measurements show a kind of big, built-in bump at 90Hz to 200Hz to make it sound "big," and that makes it impressive at first (read the Stereophile reviewer salivate!) but in the long term I preferred the flatter N804.

I also disagree with Q's generalized criticism of down-firing subwoofers. Provided one can get the phase correct, they are as good as front-firing ones. For example, RELs and Vandersteen 2WQs are well-known for being some of the easiest subwoofers to blend with satellites, and the low-order Vandersteen (-6dB@80Hz) would reproduce part of the midrange, but it still sounds good and seamless.


Val