Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 8761 times.

grsimmon

  • Restricted
  • Posts: 304
  • Omni - the best way forward
Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #40 on: 25 Sep 2018, 09:30 pm »
Joe, do not listen to grsimmon as he does not know what he is talking about and should not be on this forum with that answer. My question to you is first what type of equipment do you own? Your benefit from a D/A converter will ultimately be dependant on the resolving power of your equipment. I own the BDA3, and it certainly makes two channel music sound better than the D/A converter of my SP3, which I no slough itself.


That's some funny stuff right there.  Anyways,  get a Bryston CD player and you'll be fine.

TJ-Sully

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 416
Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #41 on: 25 Sep 2018, 11:08 pm »
+1 :thumb:

charmerci

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #42 on: 26 Sep 2018, 12:22 am »
Two things - how important is slightly better sound and are you willing to pay for it?


I'm comparing the JBL305MkII with my Philharmonitors. https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=159482.0


I want to scale down and save some money - but in listening to the JBL's, they are very good for the price and sound great. But the more I listen to them, the more that slightly flabbier bass kind of bothers me. I miss the tight bass when I sit down and really listen. If it was only for background, I'd have no problem with them. So the extra expense of the Philharmonitors seems worth it though it's not a huge difference in sound.

bapcha

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 28
Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #43 on: 26 Sep 2018, 12:40 am »
That's a short-sighted perspective. No one would argue that "digital is digital" or that "bits are bits," but a good cable does more than transmit information. It needs to do so cleanly which means eliminating EMI/RFI. A high end cable is likely to do a better job in propagating a cleaner signal than an el cheapo cable.

Not really. Peter Lyngdorf knows what he is doing. He is well respected by both audiophiles and techies alike, and I am confident that he is right

Bapcha

sounddog

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #44 on: 26 Sep 2018, 04:26 am »
I disagree. After recently seeing a link in an AC thread to the Nov 2017 Dagogo review of several ethernet cables, I was skeptical but decided to borrow from The Cable Co. a couple of Wireworld ethernet cables that the reviewer liked - the Chroma and the Starlight Cat 8s - to compare with my relatively inexpensive Cat 6 cables. I did not want to spend money to replace my ethernet cables and hoped there would be no significant difference. Besides me, I had 2 other people for the audition - my wife (who is a classical pianist and who most definitely did not want me to spend more money on cables, but who has a very discerning ear) and an audiophile friend visiting that week. I knew which cables we were listening to but they did not; in fact, because I use a powerline adapter, one ethernet cable is in our den where the Charter cable enters the house (and thus where they could not even see me changing cables) and the other cable is in our great room where it is hooked up to the stereo system. All 3 of us readily heard significant improvements in SQ with the Wireworld cables, especially with the Starlight and especially when it was used to hook into the music server used as the primary source for our system. So I bought the Chroma to use in our den and the Starlight to use to hook into the music server. Now exactly why they sounded better (and I have no connection with Wireworld nor do I claim its ethernet cables are necessarily the best), I can't say for sure, although Wireworld claims benefits from both the faster speed of its Cat 8 and the better noise rejection properties of its cables. All I can say is that it was one of the bigger bang for the buck changes I've made to our system. So I would respectfully suggest listening to different ethernet cables before claiming with such certainty that there is no difference.

bapcha

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 28
Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #45 on: 26 Sep 2018, 04:58 am »
You are welcome to disagree - but most half way good engineers can prove that the digital files being served to your DAC are identical in both cases. The uncorrectable bit rate is less than 1 in 1e8. Typical is 100 times lower 1 in 1e10

Bapcha

TJ-Sully

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 416
Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #46 on: 26 Sep 2018, 05:11 am »
Great story sounddog - thanks for sharing.  :popcorn:

This is such a cool hobby... you get try different gear and decide for yourself if this new "thing" makes a noticeable change, or a difference - and in our own minds improves our stereo systems.

I am with you sounddog. making improvements is rewarding, and sometimes, with just a few modest purchases - our systems change for the better.

Hard interpretations, like "bits are bits" or "digital cables are digital cables" - is a sure way to limit the possibilities for system improvements  - and sadly, may in fact reduce the fun in experimentation in this awesome hobby by narrowing scope.

so...there will be camps. and the camp I'm in embraces trial and error - and happily accepts all things hifi cannot be explained by linear thinking and current science.

In the end, if it sounds better - it is. 

TJ


I.Greyhound Fan

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #47 on: 26 Sep 2018, 02:56 pm »
You are welcome to disagree - but most half way good engineers can prove that the digital files being served to your DAC are identical in both cases. The uncorrectable bit rate is less than 1 in 1e8. Typical is 100 times lower 1 in 1e10

Bapcha

You can't measure everything you hear!  My Parasound A21 amp spec's are way better than my Pass X250 amp but it comes no where close to sounding as good.  There is more to it than 1's and 0's with digital cables like cat and usb for some reason.  Don't put down other peoples findings when you were not present.  I was one of the most skeptical guys when it came to cables, but hearing dramatic differences between cables made me a believer.   It is all system dependent.  Every ones gear is different.

4 of us heard big differences between usb cables, how do you explain that?  If the differences were all subtle, I could see your point.  But 2 of the cables were so bright that it hurt your ears and one was veiled and dark.  I guess we are all placebophiles!

I always get pissed off at people who claim that there are no differences between gear and tell other people to not waste their time trying out different cables just because they haven't heard them in their system.   Not all DAC's are created equal and they can respond differently to different cables for what ever reason.  Sometimes no difference will be heard.  My DAC and my friends Hugo Chord and T+A DAC8 sound different with different cables.


TJ-Sully

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 416
Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #48 on: 26 Sep 2018, 07:06 pm »
You can't measure everything you hear!....
I always get pissed off at people who claim that there are no differences between gear and tell other people to not waste their time trying out different cables just because they haven't heard them in their system....   

Roger that, Greyhound Fan. I agree 100%.   :thumb:

TJ

bapcha

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 28
Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #49 on: 26 Sep 2018, 10:34 pm »
Roger that, Greyhound Fan. I agree 100%.   :thumb:

TJ

But if the files are identical, the DAC firmware is at fault (unless you can figure out a better explanation)

TJ-Sully

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 416
Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #50 on: 26 Sep 2018, 11:33 pm »
bapcha, i think you are missing the point.   

not all things can be explained - or need to be. simply trust your ears.

take a deep breath and dive into the world of trying new things....like a new power cable, USB cable, or interconnect. You never know, you just might find something that jives with your system and appeals to your ears.

And its ok, there doesn't need to be a rationale or explanation.

cheers, TJ

CanadianMaestro

  • Restricted
  • Posts: 1760
  • Skepticism is the engine of progress
    • Hearing Everything That Nothing Can Measure
Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #51 on: 27 Sep 2018, 12:07 am »
ya should've been a shrink.
 :lol:

vintage9594

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #52 on: 27 Sep 2018, 12:20 am »
This is my everyday tip now....”Don’t do this before comparing cables”



Give it a break.....if guys/girls want to try various cables out to see if they get improvement with their systems it’s their choice on how to spend their $$$$.  I will be the first one to admit that higher price gear doesn’t always mean a higher quality sound(lived and learned) but to keep throwing your negative opinion out especially about cables without being there to witness is a bit much. 

Let it go and enjoy the knowledge we all gain by reading others past and present Audio experiences.  This was a thread on DACs & CD players not cables....you started off with your experience with your 10 year old slim devices/Logitech transporter and no one chimed in and disrespected your view of it.  I personally wouldn’t have it in a back up system but that’s my opinion and I am sure I could find a review of it online saying it’s the biggest POS made but why? It makes you happy and that is the only thing that matters.

I apologize in advance but had to get that out.
« Last Edit: 14 Oct 2018, 11:42 pm by vintage9594 »

brj

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #53 on: 27 Sep 2018, 12:52 am »
Jitter/timing.  (Which can be measured, by the way, even if there isn't perfect consensus on what constitutes a 'good enough' result.)

Even if you transmit the voltage levels representing 1s and 0s in the proper sequence 100% of the time, that alone doesn't guarantee a perfect output, as those voltage levels have to occur at precise times.  Conducted and radiated emissions are known to be able to impact nearby electronics in undesirable ways, and that can include impacting the multitude of clocks commonly found in digital gear, or downstream electronic interfaces, etc..  Other scenarios are possible as well.

Such emissions are possible on all wires, including those inside a DAC, etc.. One hopes that better DACs have improved wire routing, better internal ground paths, better inherent EMI/RFI rejection, etc., so as to be less susceptible to such influences.  Though whether you notice the influence of such effects may very well depend on where you live... the person living in the middle of nowhere may never have to worry about such issues with any reasonably well designed set of gear, while the person living next to the local broadcasting tower array may find that just moving wires causes a change in behavior.

No part of your audio system exists in isolation - it has to be considered as a whole with an understanding as to how individual elements may impact other elements, including across time, across a variety of inputs (music selection), and across various environments.  Just because a behavior isn't evident in your environment doesn't meant that it isn't evident elsewhere.

(And that's aside from rather foundational assumptions of equal hearing ability, equally well implemented room acoustic treatments, etc., much less differences in musical or system presentation preferences.)

bapcha

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 28
Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #54 on: 27 Sep 2018, 01:11 am »
Jitter does not corrupt the data. The DAC decodes 16/24/32 bits at a time (though I have hard to answer questions for any DAC that claims that it can actually resolve 32 bits of precision - or the reverse [ADC] on the analog side)

Not sure I understand "precise times" - the encoding determines timing. It is either 44KHz or 96KHz or 192KHz (assuming Redbook or higher resolution).  The timing is pre-determined, and it is not that difficult when engineers routinely deal with over 10Gbps

Bapcha

bapcha

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 28
Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #55 on: 27 Sep 2018, 01:19 am »
bapcha, i think you are missing the point.   

not all things can be explained - or need to be. simply trust your ears.

take a deep breath and dive into the world of trying new things....like a new power cable, USB cable, or interconnect. You never know, you just might find something that jives with your system and appeals to your ears.

And its ok, there doesn't need to be a rationale or explanation.

cheers, TJ

I designed circuits for a living before I went over to the business side of things. I know what is possible with Silicon (or Germanium or SiGe) and what is not (likewise, Copper, Aluminum, superconductors too). Until now, I can only relate to three engineers in the high end audio profession. They are Chris Russell of Bryston, Nelson Pass and Peter Lyngdorf. Charlie Hansen of Ayre too

Bapcha

brj

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #56 on: 27 Sep 2018, 01:53 am »
Jitter does not corrupt the data. The DAC decodes 16/24/32 bits at a time (though I have hard to answer questions for any DAC that claims that it can actually resolve 32 bits of precision - or the reverse [ADC] on the analog side)

Not sure I understand "precise times" - the encoding determines timing. It is either 44KHz or 96KHz or 192KHz (assuming Redbook or higher resolution).  The timing is pre-determined, and it is not that difficult when engineers routinely deal with over 10Gbps

I didn't say that it corrupted the data, but if the DAC reconstruction filter is unable to place even correctly delivered data properly in time, a signal other that what was intended will result nonetheless.

The frequencies you list are the reference frequencies of the oscillators.  Real clocks will vary about those intended targets for a variety of reasons, which I'm sure you know based on your circuit design experience.  All oscillators, from basic OCXO based clocks through 'atomic clocks' have various stability, precision, and accuracy specs defined by the manufacturer, and the variation within those specs may be driven by thermal, magnetic, gravitational, EM/RF, and other influences.

(Signals may be impacted elsewhere besides the clock... that's just one example.)

vintage9594

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #57 on: 27 Sep 2018, 01:56 am »
Minus the Lyngdorf brand I have had all the others you mentioned and replaced all of them with different gear. 
I will say I am a huge Nelson Pass fan....and all three brands deliver the sonic picture a bit differently.
I am bit surprised that you put up such a strong opinion on the validity of cables not having a bearing on sound but list 4 different designers that get to the end result in 4 different ways.  Your brain doesn’t allow you to think that cable design could have the same effect?  I have had all of those brands and none sound alike so why then couldn’t different Cable design have the same effect?

TJ-Sully

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 416
Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #58 on: 27 Sep 2018, 03:11 am »
i give up. it's like talking to a brick wall... :scratch:

firedog

Re: Why Would I Need a DAC-- Or An Expensive DAC?
« Reply #59 on: 27 Sep 2018, 06:49 am »
Digital Cables are digital cables. An OEM Apple or Dell USB cable will have exactly the same data as a Stealth Cable (just quoting, I do not care to look at Stealth or Jena cables). In fact, it can be easily proved the the cables (OEM vs. grail cables) transmit the same data. This brings us to the most practical Audio Engineer I have never met. Peter Lyngdorf - who recommends the use of cheap ethernet cabling on his mega $ Steinway-Lyngdorfs. The reason? It does not matter (I can get more technical, but will hold back for now)


Bapcha

Digital cables are all alike except for those that don't meet spec. And surprise, many "of the off the shelf", hanging on a rack ones at the big box store - don't. Also some audiophile expensive ones don't (which may explain why they sound "different"). There were tests posted online a few years ago of typical inexpensive cables and many were sub spec.
It's worth it to spend a bit more and get something well made like BlueJeans cable, where they test/measure each cable and ensure it meets spec.