[JohnR]

Do I need to forget about the incredible sounding speakers I've owned or heard with precision Revelators, Illuminators, Satoris, RAAL ribbons, beryllium domes and quality crossovers?  Can 10 entry-level speakers sound better for the same budget as a stereo pair of higher quality speakers if they are processed by Auro 3D?

You can buy speakers "with precision Revelators, Illuminators, Satoris, RAAL ribbons, beryllium domes and quality crossovers" for $1000/pair?

Not sure I'm buying into that and no way can I afford 10 high-quality speakers.  We've all been pleased with some of our ~ $200/pr speaker purchases for the money, whether Cambridge Aero, Gallo Classico, Philharmonic/Dayton Affordable Accuracy, etc., but most of us have relegated them to more casual secondary systems and few have found their way into our main systems, except perhaps as rear surrounds for movie effect use.

I find that a curious argument.... if you think they are good enough for surrounds, why do you think they are not good enough for height speakers as well?

[srb]

You can buy speakers "with precision Revelators, Illuminators, Satoris, RAAL ribbons, beryllium domes and quality crossovers" for $1000/pair?

Not quite, but I can buy a speaker with a Scanspeak Revelator woofer and a RAAL ribbon tweeter for $1150 (Philharmonic Audio Philharmonitor).

I find that a curious argument.... if you think they are good enough for surrounds, why do you think they are not good enough for height speakers as well?

I was referring to the recommendation to purchase the Cambridge Audio Aero 2 for all 10 speakers.  That was subsequently followed by another proposed system that acknowledged that better speakers for the front three LCR (KEF LS50) and lesser speakers for the 7 surrounds (KEF Eggs) might be more appropriate for some people.

As for the economy speakers I have for rear surrounds in a 5.1 system, I think they are "good enough" for movie surround sound effects but not necessarily for multi-channel music.

Steve

[JohnR]

OK, so you could buy three pairs of Philharmonitor for $3450 to add to your current mains for an Auro 8.0 setup.

Or, if you had a 5.1 system already, you could buy four pairs for the heights and surrounds (toss the current "not good enough" surrounds) for 11.1, at $4600.

If we supposed your current mains are Soundscape 8s at $8995/pair, the additional cost for all the extra speakers for 8.0 is less than 40%. In the 11.1 scenario and assuming an existing 7C center, it's a fairly similar ratio.

Of course most of us do have budget constraints of some kind or another but I guess I don't see that dismissing the whole concept based on speaker cost is really valid.

[JLM]

IMO we all have different (individual) sonic priorities.  Some are tube guys, some speaker guys, etc.  Personally I could never ignore vinyl surface noise like so many seemingly can.  This stereo/HT/immersive phenomenon seems to fit that observation.  Being an old music priority guy I take the following exceptions:

1.)  This is a very artificial and arbitrary construct.  In a stereo recording process tracks are mixed and mastered by professionals to create a realistic stereo image.  Immersive Audio takes that stereo recording and creates channels that didn't exist in the original and is done without any intelligent skill applied to the individual recording.

2.)  This is a very awkward setup for nearly any existing domestic space.  Only a blind mother could love all the wires, stands, and speakers everywhere.  And like HT formats it requires adherence to sitting in a sweet spot (or a huge room) more so than stereo. 

3.)  Comparison of ten $200 speakers to a pair of quality $1000 each speakers frankly is ridiculous and cause to dismiss the whole concept.  OTOH using ten $1000 each quality speakers (with comparable quality amplification and cabling) greatly increases costs.

4.)  Ideally more channels, properly done, will yield a more defined 3D soundstage.  However the devil is in the details and way too many details are missing.  And in general complexity breeds distortion.  It may be initially entertaining, but like so many other special effect speakers (omni, dipole, array) and formats (quad, SACD, DVDa) I expect it will be abandoned as the market is moving towards smaller and simpler solutions.

5.)  As absurd as it may seem in this scenario what's missing is diffused bass output.  Floyd Toole's work points to the need for multiple subwoofers in residential spaces to avoid +/- 20 dB peaks. 

[witchdoctor]

Have I been under the misconception that loudspeaker quality was an important factor in sound reproduction, where the "rubber meets the road", if you will?

Do I need to forget about the incredible sounding speakers I've owned or heard with precision Revelators, Illuminators, Satoris, RAAL ribbons, beryllium domes and quality crossovers?  Can 10 entry-level speakers sound better for the same budget as a stereo pair of higher quality speakers if they are processed by Auro 3D?

Not sure I'm buying into that and no way can I afford 10 high-quality speakers.  We've all been pleased with some of our ~ $200/pr speaker purchases for the money, whether Cambridge Aero, Gallo Classico, Philharmonic/Dayton Affordable Accuracy, etc., but most of us have relegated them to more casual secondary systems and few have found their way into our main systems, except perhaps as rear surrounds for movie effect use.

Steve

Steve do you still own the Kef C60 speakers in your 5.1 system profile? I see matching speakers available on ebay that you can add as height channels for a sweet price-
http://www.ebay.com/sch/items/?_nkw=kef+c60&_sacat=&_ex_kw=&_mPrRngCbx=1&_udlo=&_udhi=&_sop=12&_fpos=&_fspt=1&_sadis=&LH_CAds=&rmvSB=true

[JohnR]

5.)  As absurd as it may seem in this scenario what's missing is diffused bass output.  Floyd Toole's work points to the need for multiple subwoofers in residential spaces to avoid +/- 20 dB peaks.

Well, I can agree with one of your points - except for the "absurd" bit: how the ".1" channel is executed is important but largely irrelevant to this discussion.

[witchdoctor]

IMO we all have different (individual) sonic priorities.  Some are tube guys, some speaker guys, etc.  Personally I could never ignore vinyl surface noise like so many seemingly can.  This stereo/HT/immersive phenomenon seems to fit that observation.  Being an old music priority guy I take the following exceptions:

1.)  This is a very artificial and arbitrary construct.  In a stereo recording process tracks are mixed and mastered by professionals to create a realistic stereo image.  Immersive Audio takes that stereo recording and creates channels that didn't exist in the original and is done without any intelligent skill applied to the individual recording.

2.)  This is a very awkward setup for nearly any existing domestic space.  Only a blind mother could love all the wires, stands, and speakers everywhere.  And like HT formats it requires adherence to sitting in a sweet spot (or a huge room) more so than stereo. 

3.)  Comparison of ten $200 speakers to a pair of quality $1000 each speakers frankly is ridiculous and cause to dismiss the whole concept.  OTOH using ten $1000 each quality speakers (with comparable quality amplification and cabling) greatly increases costs.

4.)  Ideally more channels, properly done, will yield a more defined 3D soundstage.  However the devil is in the details and way too many details are missing.  And in general complexity breeds distortion.  It may be initially entertaining, but like so many other special effect speakers (omni, dipole, array) and formats (quad, SACD, DVDa) I expect it will be abandoned as the market is moving towards smaller and simpler solutions.

5.)  As absurd as it may seem in this scenario what's missing is diffused bass output.  Floyd Toole's work points to the need for multiple subwoofers in residential spaces to avoid +/- 20 dB peaks.

Thanks for your post. I encountered no devils in the details.

1) Buy new auro capable processor.
2) Add height speakers to my current surround system as funds allow.
3) Let the good times roll. 

IMO height channels high on the wall are a lot more discreet than towers, surrounds or most subwoofers. I had to use tall stands due to the heavy Paradigm Active 20 speakers I use. I could have used Paradigm Millenia speakers which would have worked too and I doubt you would even notice them.

https://www.paradigm.com/products-current/series=millenia/model=milleniaone-1.0/page=overview

[AJinFLA]

IMO we all have different (individual) sonic priorities.  Some are tube guys, some speaker guys, etc.  Personally I could never ignore vinyl surface noise like so many seemingly can.  This stereo/HT/immersive phenomenon seems to fit that observation.

No. For the 5th time, all this can be simply added to the beloved stereo shrine. Not one single thing needs to be done to the existing beloved stereo TT/Tubes, etc, etc, etc shrine. Add MCH to pre out and however many added speakers on needs for the upmix. For me, that would be 2 heights (already using surrounds). That's it. No 10 red herrings, etc.

This is a very artificial and arbitrary construct.  In a stereo recording process tracks are mixed and mastered by professionals to create a realistic stereo image.  Immersive Audio takes that stereo recording and creates channels that didn't exist in the original and is done without any intelligent skill applied to the individual recording.

Please. 99% of stereo recordings are artificial studio contructs. Very very few are binuaural mics pointed at musicians+instruments with zero post processing. Stereo itself is a construct.
But ok, so artificial and lack of intelligent skill is what you heard with Auro 3D upmixing? Could you share details of system etc you heard?

Ideally more channels, properly done, will yield a more defined 3D soundstage.  However the devil is in the details and way too many details are missing.

Yes, especially the Auro3D listening experiences of the detractors 

5.)  As absurd as it may seem in this scenario what's missing is diffused bass output.  Floyd Toole's work points to the need for multiple subwoofers in residential spaces to avoid +/- 20 dB peaks.

Right, but how do you do that above 40hz in mono and have any 3d? (Answer, you don't). https://secure.aes.org/forum/pubs/conferences/?elib=17270

I think it's pretty clear by now that 99% of audiophiles have never heard a 3d or stereo + surround setup.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Witchdoctor, thank you for the detailed description. Not sure I'll jump on anything now, but will revisit this when my AVR dies.
In the meantime though, I might rig up something to those "front high" outputs and see what happens.
I think it's just the internal Denon trickery and voodoo, and not anything as fancy as Atmos, Aura, etc...

[witchdoctor]

Witchdoctor, thank you for the detailed description. Not sure I'll jump on anything now, but will revisit this when my AVR dies.
In the meantime though, I might rig up something to those "front high" outputs and see what happens.
I think it's just the internal Denon trickery and voodoo, and not anything as fancy as Atmos, Aura, etc...

Sure, I hope you can post a pic or two once it is setup.

[Bob in St. Louis]

They're a bit old, but I've got some pics in my gallery.
Anything I do in the short term will be ugly and not very worthy of a photo. 

[thunderbrick]

They're a bit old, but I've got some pics in my gallery.
Anything I do in the short term will be ugly and not very worthy of a photo. 

You're a bit old and ugly, BISL, but I've seen your rig and I think it's pretty cool.  Snap away!

[Bob in St. Louis]

    

[JohnR]

Bob - there are still some of us left that care more about sound than looks.

[fredgarvin]

I think the thread title was an excellent model for a good thread, besides interested parties it drew a handful of grumps complaining about the title and yet couldn't help themselves from returning to make a few more posts that added nothing to the conversation but did help the thread grow. It's easy to see how that has become an internet business model.

Now, I still wonder if a sub array would be important and more effective than a single in immersive audio?

[Bob in St. Louis]

Bob - there are still some of us left that care more about sound than looks.

Absolutely, but the "rig job" would be nothing but wires hanging out in mid-air. 

[JohnR]

Hah hah!

Well that's a conundrum.

[witchdoctor]

I think the thread title was an excellent model for a good thread, besides interested parties it drew a handful of grumps complaining about the title and yet couldn't help themselves from returning to make a few more posts that added nothing to the conversation but did help the thread grow. It's easy to see how that has become an internet business model.

Now, I still wonder if a sub array would be important and more effective than a single in immersive audio?

That is an excellent question for the guys at Auro, I only have one sub so couldn't comment.

[AJinFLA]

Now, I still wonder if a sub array would be important and more effective than a single in immersive audio?

Absolutely yes. The ideal system would have multiple subs being fed specific signals. The PSR demo that I linked (more than once) used 5 full bandwidth (including sub freq) speakers. Humans can detect spatial effects down to as low as 40hz.

[thunderbrick]

Bob - there are still some of us left that care more about sound than looks.

True, but it's not an sound-or-looks issue.  Why not both?   

Or it could be a spouse issue.  Divorce can put a big dent in the sound budget....