AudioCircle
Industry Circles => GR Research => Topic started by: Tyson on 2 Jan 2020, 07:02 am
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202752)
Preamble
Had a chance to visit Danny recently and spent a few days listening to ALL the most recent OB offerings and thought I'd write up separate reviews for each of them. This review is for the NX-Ottica Tower.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202754)
Initial Impressions
Ah, the speaker I was the most reluctant to listen to. As many of you know, I own the Super 7 from GR Research which is fully OB and uses planar magnetic drivers for midrange and tweeter. And it is one of the very best speakers in the world, IMO. A big part of what I love is the blazing speed and transparency of those planar mids. I was sure that the NX-Ottica tower with it's heavier mass midrange drivers simply would not be able to keep up. And Danny's sitting right next to me during the audition. If it's not great.... awkward!
Visually however, this is a beautiful speaker - the copper baffle really sets off the copper phase plug on the midrange drivers. The crazy thing is Danny said he was able to get this finish/look out of a can of spray paint!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202753)
Listening Notes
Started out with them using the First Watt BA3 amp and it sounded good, but my fears were confirmed, it was definitely slow compared to the planars we'd heard earlier via the Super Mini. :( Oh boy, how am I going to tell Danny I don't like his design?
After a bit Danny suggests we switch to his battery powered chip amps. That certainly picks up the resolution, speed and imaging. But it sounds tonally thin vs the BA3.
Almost as an afterthought, we decide to hook up my Elekit Japan 300b amp. What a transformation! NOW there's speed, resolution, soundstaging, dynamics galore and also that beautiful 300b glow that just brings everything to life. OK, so now I'm eating crow. These speakers, with the right amps, are really, really good.
Also, even though they are a tower speaker, they really need the servo OB subs for full range sound. We had the triple OB subs hooked up and man these speakers sounded huge!
Edit to add: Here's a link to the recent New Record Day visit to Danny's and their impressions on several speakers, including this one. They heard stuff very similar to what I did:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xxFKVC2Xro
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Elekit Japan 300b amp. What a transformation! NOW there's speed, resolution, soundstaging, dynamics galore and also that beautiful 300b glow that just brings everything to life.
Does that Elekit TU-8600R 300B amp have the Lundahl transformer and/or Mundorf Silver/gold/oil cap upgrade?
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Does that Elekit TU-8600R 300B amp have the Lundahl transformer and/or Mundorf Silver/gold/oil cap upgrade?
Nope. I actually have the prior version that uses the octal 6SN7 tubes, picked it up for a song here on AC ($650 used!). Lundahl transformers are not an option on this version. But I have upgraded the amp by:
Bypassing the volume pot entirely
Replacing all signal and output wiring with pure OCC hookup wire
Replaced the RCA jacks with high purity copper Furutech jacks
Replaced the biding posts with low mass, high purity copper WBT posts
Put in a Furutech IEC connector
Replaced all input and coupling caps with Miflex copper
Bypassed the power supply electrolytics with Miflex copper
So it was a great design before but hamstrung by average level parts. It's a real beauty now.
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Ohhh, the Elekit TU-8233.. nice.
I wish my TU-8600r used 8233's chassis with traditional removable bottom plate, etc. As it is, the amp has to be practically disassembled just to get to the bottom and change out coupling caps :duh: Hope Elekit is listening for the next model...
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Ohhh, the Elekit TU-8233.. nice.
I wish my TU-8600r used 8233's chassis with traditional removable bottom plate, etc. As it is, the amp has to be practically disassembled just to get to the bottom and change out coupling caps :duh: Hope Elekit is listening for the next model...
Part of why I bought it was because it ran octals instead of 9 pin tubes for the input board. The other reason I got it is that it run both 2a3 and 300b tubes. You just plug one in and it auto-senses which tube it is and adjust internal voltage accordingly. That's very rare for these 2 particular tubes.
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Tyson,
Were you able to listen to the monitor version also?
Mike
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Tyson,
Were you able to listen to the monitor version also?
Mike
No, only the tower version.
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Tyson,
Were you able to listen to the monitor version also?
Mike
I think Danny and myself have both posted about this comparison a couiple of times....
While the MTM's are very good, they definately don't have the lower mid bass of the full NX-Otica's . There is quite a difference in this area. You also take away a lot of the workload on the NQQ's by passing off sub -200hz duties to the 4 M165 / M165X's....quite possibly why I didn't feel the MTM version had no midrange advantage even with no high pass to the NQ's.
jay
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Here's a link to the recent New Record Day visit to Danny's and their impressions on several speakers, including this one. They heard stuff very similar to what I did:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xxFKVC2Xro
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Here's a link to the recent New Record Day visit to Danny's and their impressions on several speakers, including this one. They heard stuff very similar to what I did:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xxFKVC2Xro
Funny thing is that I gave the system a little listen today and realized those Miflex Copper caps have just opened up a bit more. This system has moved up a little bit now since they were here. :D
Man these things take a long time to burn it, but they sure sound good when they are.
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Funny thing is that I gave the system a little listen today and realized those Miflex Copper caps have just opened up a bit more. This system has moved up a little bit now since they were here. :D
Man these things take a long time to burn it, but they sure sound good when they are.
Last week, xrk971
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273524-10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor-post6076154.html
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=204604)
After many hours of listening with the new Miflex caps, I have to say that I agree with Maty that they do make a difference. It is subtle but the improvement in soundstage and vocal presence is unmistakable. Definitely a worthwhile upgrade/add-on.
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Oh man, a nice Copper cap in the circuit and yet there is sand caste resistors, Tin connectors with steal screws in them, and cheap PVC coated wire.... Agh! So much improvement ahead still.....
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Give him time. Years ago, all the amplifiers he assembled, more than fifteen -to practice and know different topologies- used very cheap components purchased on eBay to save money.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/295286-virtual-audition-simple-quasi-mosfet-amp.html
After he began to design them and bought components in professional stores. In a class A designed by Hugh Dean (AKSA) he detected that according to which resistor he used, the harmonic profile of the amplifier changed: dominant H2 -> dominant H3 -> dominant H2.
I passed the link of the modified Behringer and detected the difference from the phone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmsMGILAYvk
I also had a hard time believing the cap bypass, hence I first did it with cheap NOS styroflex. Or the sand resistor which by definition should be of very low inductance.
Being unable to find a logical explanation at this time I can not ignore the improvement produced.
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Give him time. Years ago, all the amplifiers he assembled, more than fifteen -to practice and know different topologies- used very cheap components purchased on eBay to save money.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/295286-virtual-audition-simple-quasi-mosfet-amp.html
After he began to design them and bought components in professional stores. In a class A designed by Hugh Dean (AKSA) he detected that according to which resistor he used, the harmonic profile of the amplifier changed: dominant H2 -> dominant H3 -> dominant H2.
I passed the link of the modified Behringer and detected the difference from the phone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmsMGILAYvk
I also had a hard time believing the cap bypass, hence I first did it with cheap NOS styroflex. Or the sand resistor which by definition should be of very low inductance.
Being unable to find a logical explanation at this time I can not ignore the improvement produced.
Much respect Maty. Most people that didn't understand it would refuse to believe it. But it does sound better! I'm super impressed you've been able to trust what your ears are actually telling you. That's somewhat rare in this hobby.
:thumb:
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Dumb question on the NX-Otica / NX-Treme models..
I see the NQ models used in the MTM section only.. Would using the NQ models be an "upgrade" for the other M165 models in the banks of 4?
ie swap the M165-16 Woofers for M165NQ/16 Woofers?
just curious...
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Dumb question on the NX-Otica / NX-Treme models..
I see the NQ models used in the MTM section only.. Would using the NQ models be an "upgrade" for the other M165 models in the banks of 4?
ie swap the M165-16 Woofers for M165NQ/16 Woofers?
just curious...
No. The NQ model woofers were designed to be mid-bass drivers.
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Hope it's OK to ask here - very new to the forum (lurker mode). How do the NX-otica's perform with more complex prog rock/metal music (if you've had a chance to try some). The design philosophy to these speakers makes perfect sense to me, but seeing as auditioning them would be difficult, a purchase of a set would be a completely blind risk - I'm really picky with that genre's performance on speakers I've auditioned. Thanks!
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202752)
Preamble
Had a chance to visit Danny recently and spent a few days listening to ALL the most recent OB offerings and thought I'd write up separate reviews for each of them. This review is for the NX-Ottica Tower.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202754)
Initial Impressions
Ah, the speaker I was the most reluctant to listen to. As many of you know, I own the Super 7 from GR Research which is fully OB and uses planar magnetic drivers for midrange and tweeter. And it is one of the very best speakers in the world, IMO. A big part of what I love is the blazing speed and transparency of those planar mids. I was sure that the NX-Ottica tower with it's heavier mass midrange drivers simply would not be able to keep up. And Danny's sitting right next to me during the audition. If it's not great.... awkward!
Visually however, this is a beautiful speaker - the copper baffle really sets off the copper phase plug on the midrange drivers. The crazy thing is Danny said he was able to get this finish/look out of a can of spray paint!
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=202753)
Listening Notes
Started out with them using the First Watt BA3 amp and it sounded good, but my fears were confirmed, it was definitely slow compared to the planars we'd heard earlier via the Super Mini. :( Oh boy, how am I going to tell Danny I don't like his design?
After a bit Danny suggests we switch to his battery powered chip amps. That certainly picks up the resolution, speed and imaging. But it sounds tonally thin vs the BA3.
Almost as an afterthought, we decide to hook up my Elekit Japan 300b amp. What a transformation! NOW there's speed, resolution, soundstaging, dynamics galore and also that beautiful 300b glow that just brings everything to life. OK, so now I'm eating crow. These speakers, with the right amps, are really, really good.
Also, even though they are a tower speaker, they really need the servo OB subs for full range sound. We had the triple OB subs hooked up and man these speakers sounded huge!
Edit to add: Here's a link to the recent New Record Day visit to Danny's and their impressions on several speakers, including this one. They heard stuff very similar to what I did:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xxFKVC2Xro
Hi Tyson,
In my house hold we have cats, small but they are cats and like to get into things. Any recommendations to prevent the cats from having access to the MTM yet speaker being OB? If i can't make it work i may need to get the Studios rather than the Oticas.
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Hope it's OK to ask here - very new to the forum (lurker mode). How do the NX-otica's perform with more complex prog rock/metal music (if you've had a chance to try some). The design philosophy to these speakers makes perfect sense to me, but seeing as auditioning them would be difficult, a purchase of a set would be a completely blind risk - I'm really picky with that genre's performance on speakers I've auditioned. Thanks!
It'll do exceptionally well. For complex music like that, what you need is a speaker that does 3 things.
First, create a large soundstage for the music to be able to breath in. Otherwise it all sort of collapses into a mushy wall of undifferentiated sound. That's what most speakers do. But not the NX-Ottica.
Second, have exceptional timing. There's a few things that contribute to that, but having the tweeter set back so that it aligns with the woofers' voice coils gives you a big win there.
Third, have exceptional detail that is not fatiguing. This is probably the hardest to get right. You need a midrange driver that is exceptionally fast and has a super clean rise and settle time. And you must have a tweeter that is highly transparent but not bright. The NX-Ottica crushes it in both these areas. The only midrange I've heard that comes close to the detail level of the NX-Ottica is the Accuton ceramic mids - the Accutons are highly detailed but they are also quite cold and analytical sounding IME. For the tweeter, some of the new beryllium tweeters get close but none of them are OB so you get a lot of detail but it sounds closed off in comparison. And those tweeters are a LOT more expensive.
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Hi Tyson,
In my house hold we have cats, small but they are cats and like to get into things. Any recommendations to prevent the cats from having access to the MTM yet speaker being OB? If i can't make it work i may need to get the Studios rather than the Oticas.
Play a recording of dogs barking at loud volumes! Haha, just kidding.
I dunno, maybe you could get something made similar to what the old Vandersteen speakers uses, where they had a frame with acoustic fabric all the way around, something like this:
(https://www.audioconnect.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Vandersteen-1c.jpg)
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Play a recording of dogs barking at loud volumes! Haha, just kidding.
I dunno, maybe you could get something made similar to what the old Vandersteen speakers uses, where they had a frame with acoustic fabric all the way around, something like this:
(https://www.audioconnect.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Vandersteen-1c.jpg)
Hahaha, then i would be sleeping with the dogs if the wife found out i did that!
That's exactly what i was thinking building a frame of some sort to be able to place acoustic fabric but i don't want to ruin the MTM sound waves too much coming from the back of the speakers. (I am indecisive still between the monitors only MTM no woofers) I would just need to place fabric on top, on the back and on the side where the "wave" is.
I should be okay with adding the one frame so it can support all three acoustic fabrics, it shouldn't change the sound signature too much correct?
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I would lean to some grill/covering that is removable, so it's off when listening, and on when not playing the speakers.
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It'll do exceptionally well. For complex music like that, what you need is a speaker that does 3 things.
First, create a large soundstage for the music to be able to breath in. Otherwise it all sort of collapses into a mushy wall of undifferentiated sound. That's what most speakers do. But not the NX-Ottica.
Second, have exceptional timing. There's a few things that contribute to that, but having the tweeter set back so that it aligns with the woofers' voice coils gives you a big win there.
Third, have exceptional detail that is not fatiguing. This is probably the hardest to get right. You need a midrange driver that is exceptionally fast and has a super clean rise and settle time. And you must have a tweeter that is highly transparent but not bright. The NX-Ottica crushes it in both these areas. The only midrange I've heard that comes close to the detail level of the NX-Ottica is the Accuton ceramic mids - the Accutons are highly detailed but they are also quite cold and analytical sounding IME. For the tweeter, some of the new beryllium tweeters get close but none of them are OB so you get a lot of detail but it sounds closed off in comparison. And those tweeters are a LOT more expensive.
Well, I guess I can't ask for a better response and insight than that! In my experience so far, the "best" I've heard that wasn't in the stratosphere price-wise was the Vandersteen Treo. While I wasn't 100% sold on the tweeter, everything else about that speaker was largely what you described above. It allowed the music to breathe within the soundstage, and had super clean, tight, articulate bass (even if the quantity wasn't the greatest). Seeing as how the NX-Otica is ~1/3rd the price, this may be the winner I've been looking for.
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Well, I guess I can't ask for a better response and insight than that! In my experience so far, the "best" I've heard that wasn't in the stratosphere price-wise was the Vandersteen Treo. While I wasn't 100% sold on the tweeter, everything else about that speaker was largely what you described above. It allowed the music to breathe within the soundstage, and had super clean, tight, articulate bass (even if the quantity wasn't the greatest). Seeing as how the NX-Otica is ~1/3rd the price, this may be the winner I've been looking for.
Yeah man, I listen to large orchestral music mostly and some electronica (both of which can be very complex) and I am spoiled with the world-class speed of the Neo10 drivers in my Super 7 speakers at home. When I went to Danny's one of my big fears is that the midrange driver in the NX-Ottica just wouldn't be able to keep up with what my Super 7s can do. But I was wrong. That OB midrange driver he uses is blazing fast and insanely detailed. But it's also extremely well controlled and self-damped. Trust me, that is freaking hard to get right and is very, very rare.
And of course the other smart thing he does is load that Neo3 in a deep waveguide. IME, the Neo3 in a deep waveguide AND in OB config is pretty much the best tweeter out there. For dome tweeters, a couple of the beryllium tweeters come close (but they sound closed off because they are not OB). Of the other ribbon tweeters (like RAAL) have similar detail and delicacy but just aren't robust and dynamic sounding like the Neo3 in this config. The only tweeter I've heard that's on par with it is the ESS Heil AMT that is massive and goes down to 800hz. But it's so long you run into issues of poor off axis (vertical) dispersion. And those are $340 a pair. So the deep waveguided OB Neo3 is somewhat miraculous for the price, IME.
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I had the NX-Otica's for a number of years ( first pair built after we sent the initial prototype to Danny) and have now owned the Super 7's for approx a year. One is not better than the other, they are actualy quite similar in sound assuming you add subs to your NX-Otica's. The mid-range is different, it is slightly faster and slightly more detailed with the Neo 10 of the S7's but, they give up some warmth/musicality to the NQ mids of the NX-Otica's. Not as much reach needed by the subs either as the NX-Otica's will reach down deeper before bringing inthe subs.
Agree with Tyson too, the Neo3 in an OB config behind the deep waveguideis hard to beat . Had 2 models with closed back Neo3's previously and really liked them, but, opening up the rear side after being physically aligned withthe voice coils of the woofers is a big step up
Love my Super 7's but miss my Otica's at times too
jay
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Tyson and Cap. Interesting comparison. Thanks for that. I'm trying to get up to speed on all things GR and these discussions are very helpful.