AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Planar Circle => Topic started by: SteveFord on 16 Mar 2011, 05:03 pm
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I've been going back and forth with the folks at Magnepan for the past month or so to see how I could get them involved with this Circle without stretching them too thin.
As Magnepan states on their website and other posts in forums and chat rooms, their small staff does not have the ability to monitor or respond to questions in chat rooms or forums.
I am a bit of a Magneplanar "junkie" with several models around the house and more to come (it's a sickness). If you have a Magnepan question, post it on this site and I will do my best to get the answer for you or see that someone that knows the answer gets back to you.
Hopefully, this will work for the membership here and the people who get paid to make our speakers. Any questions, fire away.
For what it's worth, I tried to extend the offer to other planar manufacturers but not a peep which I suppose says something right there.
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Steve, Steve, Steve--oooh, oooh Can I be first? Hand raised and waiving. :lol:
Any news about the "minis"? I don't have room for the "biguns".
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Yes, you certainly may!
I'll be back presently and while I'm gone, the lovely Vanna White will present you with a lifetime supply of Rice-A-Roni, the San Francisco Treat, for you to enjoy on your all expenses paid cruise for two to beautiful Aruba!!!
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Hey guys, there is an official Magnepan chat room that is moderated under the Bryston thread. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=91239.0
And I think there is an answer on the Mini's there too.
Matt
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Youravhandyman, I think that they're trying to incorporate it into the Speaker section. You could say that this is official if you wish. It's possible that the answer has been posted over at the Magnepan Child Board already.
As Wendell said, he's trying to find what will work the best for him as it doesn't sound like his boss is going to hire an assistant for him within his lifetime.
Production for the mini maggies has been pushed back as they're getting hammered with orders for the 1.7 and 3.7s so they have to clear the backlog on the big boys.
How long that will be remains to be seen. If you tell people to stop ordering the big ones it will speed things up!
The minis are going to be quite something - a three piece system using the .7 technology and they'll come in at roughly $1600 for the package, give or take. You will need the subwoofer as that contains the crossover so 3 piece it is.
I've been looking at this downstairs bedroom/office and wondering where I can stick some MMGs but these upcoming minis would be a much better fit.
I don't expect them to replace the speakers in the larger rooms but for a small room such as this they should be just the ticket.
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That's awesome news on the Mini Maggie's... I've also got an office system where the Mini's would be awesome (I'm using Usher S520's now)! Is the woofer going to be the Magnepan woofer, or a traditional cone subwoofer? I'm guessing the Magnepan woofer, but you said sub - so I'm just looking for some clarification.
I'll also add that I spoke with Wendell today as well (about my 3.7 order)... I've got a red pair on order and he said that they should be going to powdercoat either next week or the week after. It'll be a gloss red powdercoat finish and there will be an upcharge for it. Just in case anybody was wondering.
Thanks for taking on this new responsibility Steve :thumb:
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It will be that Maggie subwoofer which is really more of a bass section than a sub.
Congratulations on the red 3.7s!
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That's what I figured - just looking for clarification. Thanks for the info Steve!
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Steve,
Please ask if there is an option for a 2.2 Mini system (i.e. two bass modules) and if the crossovers can be bypassed to use an external crossover. Thanks.
It will be that Maggie subwoofer which is really more of a bass section than a sub.
Congratulations on the red 3.7s!
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Here's one from Troy over on the Planar Asylum:
I would like some more details about how the 20.1 midrange and bass is built different than the 3.6? Also is the ability to play louder the only benefit?
Also does Wendell prefer absorption or diffusion, if diffusion any preferred flavor QRD, geometric, etc...
And here is the response:
I get a question like this nearly every day on one model or another. It would mean a short white paper to attempt to cover the subject--- and some of it we just don't know. Much of the development is a cut-and-try process. If something works, we don't always know the exact reason.
The 20.1 is a 3.6 without regard to cost. Everything we make is about price/performance value. The 20.1 was designed without this concern. If something could make it a little better, it was done. But, there is no audio "jewelry". If cost was put into the 20.1, there had to be a detectable (blindfolded) improvement.
Absorption or diffusion? Both, but in moderation. Again, we do it by cut-and-try. No favored brands, etc
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For Don_S:
Two woofers (model DWM) can be used. The crossover is built into the DWM and can not be bypassed.
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:D are you guys going to up the 20.1 any time soon like the 3.6's ????? :D i have the 3.6's and think they are a very good speaker indeed. Pat :D
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Someone already asked about a 20.2 on the other forum -- if you enjoy tea leaf reading, I suggest you check out the full answer there -- but the bottom line was that there's no official confirmation at this point.
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Steve, Thanks for the info. Bummer that the crossovers can't be bypassed. That limits options.
For Don_S:
Two woofers (model DWM) can be used. The crossover is built into the DWM and can not be bypassed.
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For the mini Maggies, I would think that a conventional subwoofer might be more useful than a second panel subwoofer?
As Josh said regarding the 20.2s, I wouldn't be expecting anything along those lines anytime soon.
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Hi Steve,
Another question for Wendell -- can the Mini Maggies be used on stands, as nearfield monitors, or do they have to be sitting on a horizontal surface like a desk?
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To Steve Ford or Wendell I would like to get maggie 1.7's but i think my room might be too small. It is a dedicated room in the basement 11 feet wide and 17 feet long by about 7 and a half feet high. Also is a Bryston 4bsst2 enough to drive them. thanks Scott
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Can you guys upgrade my 1.6s to 1.7s, say for about $250 bucks? :lol:
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Sorry to be so slow in getting these responses for you:
Another question for Wendell -- can the Mini Maggies be used on stands, as nearfield monitors, or do they have to be sitting on a horizontal surface like a desk?
They could be put on stands, but, Mini Maggies are only recommended in spaces where a 1.7 can not be shoe-horned in.
I would like to get maggie 1.7's but i think my room might be too small.
It is a dedicated room in the basement 11 feet wide and 17 feet long by about 7 and a half feet high.
Yes, that is small, but, what are your options? A smaller, lower-definition Maggie such as the MMG? I would take the 1.7 over the Mini Maggies in that room.
Also is a Bryston 4bsst2 enough to drive them.
That is enough for me in a smallish room, but, I am reluctant to say how much would satisfy someone else.
The question from thunderbrick got me wondering if it's even possible to upgrade the 1.6s to 1.7 configuration so I'll try and find out.
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For the esteemed thunderbrick,
Is it possible to modify the 1.6s into 1.7s (and presumably 3.6s into 3.7s)?
No.
I've got to admit, Wendell makes me laugh.
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My question was entirely tongue-in-cheek, but one can dream, right? :thumb: :drool:
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Thanks, Steve. You can tell Wendell that since the Mini Maggies were too small, I bought a pair of Tympani IVA's instead. :-)
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I have a question for Wendell, first a disclaimer. I am only interested in general suggestions, I can see his eyes rolling now. As in we could never sell a speaker with this kind of modifcation, however Maggie fans on the forum are pretty HardCore so we don't care so much about the astethics for this mod. Plus what is a wing/baffle in size compared to the Tympani's, those are some large speakers.
The question is does he have any advise, regarding using wings/baffles with large Maggies's like the 3.6. Since they admit that they try different mod's and they use some boundary reinforcement techniques with the smaller speakers. They should have some general thoughts, guidelines etc... Again I don't need a full blown tech article, just a few basic do's and don't.
If Wendell prefers I can call him with this question, just thought it might be nice too share with the forum.
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He's out and about for a bit so give me around a week for an answer.
I did ask earlier about this and they did experiment some with this.
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Thanks Steve.
How about one more question though, what about acoustic diffusion panels and DIY diffusors ? As in what type does works best with Magnepan, QRD's, Skyline's/PRD's, etc... Again just looking for some basic info. nothing too complicated.
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I have a question. I listened to (Bill in WV's) Tympany's yesterday. I loved the bass and midrange. Much better than an underpowered very small Maggie I heard 5 years ago which was my only other Maggie experience. How do 3.7 and 20.1 compare to the Tympany in general. Can they play as low and loud as the Tympany? I assume the new ones are better in the midrange and upper octaves, but they are smaller, which is why I ask about the bass...
Thanks!
Rich
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Thanks Steve.
How about one more question though, what about acoustic diffusion panels and DIY diffusors ? As in what type does works best with Magnepan, QRD's, Skyline's/PRD's, etc... Again just looking for some basic info. nothing too complicated.
You'd want to use QRD's behind the speakers (generally at the first reflection points), because they're lateral diffusers whereas skylines diffuse the sound both horizontally and vertically. So PRD's would spray sound on the floor and ceiling, which would obviate one of the main advantages of a line source, its vertical directionality.
Dipole line sources don't generally require ceiling treatment, in fact, theoretically, you don't want to eliminate the floor and ceiling reflections since they create a virtual infinite line source out of a finite one. Treatment of first reflection points on the side walls is optional -- dipoles don't put much energy there but depending on orientation some does reflect, so you may want to try treatment at the first reflection points. Absorption is generally better than diffusion there because typical QRD diffusers don't work well when you're that close to them. If you're sitting too close to the rear wall, you may want absorption there, again, it's too close to the listener for QRD's.
All subject to the caveat that different rooms benefit from different treatment, of course.
BTW, you can throw together some QRD's quickly and cheaply with styrofoam, then buy or make better ones if you like the results. There are QRD calculators online if you need the values.
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I have a question. I listened to (Bill in WV's) Tympany's yesterday. I loved the bass and midrange. Much better than an underpowered very small Maggie I heard 5 years ago which was my only other Maggie experience. How do 3.7 and 20.1 compare to the Tympany in general. Can they play as low and loud as the Tympany? I assume the new ones are better in the midrange and upper octaves, but they are smaller, which is why I ask about the bass...
Thanks!
Rich
Nope :-|
The Tympanis have the best bass of any Maggie, by reputation (and my own experience) the best midbass of any speaker ever made.
Which is why I just scored me a pair of Tympani IVA's. :-)
Once you get used to woofers that combine the clarity of planars with the slam and extension of all but a handful of dynamics, it's hard to settle for anything else.
Still, the 20.1 goes significantly deeper than the 3.7, from what I've read (I still haven't heard the 3.7 myself -- I understand it's magical).
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Here you go, from Wendell Diller, the hardest working man in stereo land:
The question is does he have any advise, regarding using wings/baffles with large Maggies's like the 3.6.
It is not very effective and looks terrible.
Since they admit that they try different mod's and they use some boundary reinforcement techniques with the smaller speakers. They should have some general thoughts, guidelines etc... Again I don't need a full blown tech article, just a few basic do's and don't
Not recommended.
what about acoustic diffusion panels and DIY diffusors ? As in what type does works best with Magnepan, QRD's, Skyline's/PRD's, etc... Again just looking for some basic info. nothing too complicated. Both absorption and diffusers can work wonders.
We simply use cut-and-try.
I listened to (Bill in WV's) Tympany's yesterday. I loved the bass and midrange. Much better than an underpowered very small Maggie I heard 5 years ago which was my only other Maggie experience. How do 3.7 and 20.1 compare to the Tympany in general.
Note from me (Steve Ford): you'll need to get a little more specific to get a valid answer.
Can they play as low and loud as the Tympany? Yes
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Given that they've been out for over a decade now, are the 20.1's likely to see a revision (incorporating the 1.7/3.7 driver technology for example) in the relatively near future - or are there other things ahead of them in the development pipeline?
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Thanks for the answers! I will try to audition 20.1.
Given that they've been out for over a decade now, are the 20.1's likely to see a revision (incorporating the 1.7/3.7 driver technology for example) in the relatively near future - or are there other things ahead of them in the development pipeline?
good question
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good question
I know it's been asked earlier in this thread but it didn't really get an answer so I was hoping this time it might! :wink:
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IF anything is happening with the 20.1s we won't know about it until after the dealers do.
IF being the operative word.
Same deal with any other future products.
So the answer is, who knows? Not me.
We can speculate but that's all we can do at the moment.
Steve Ford
P.S.
That's only understandable. IF something does occur I'll be sure to post it as soon as I can.
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Thanks Steve, I know we can speculate (isn't that what BB's are for?!). I was actually hoping for a slightly less speculative response from the folks at the Maggie factory but I guess that's being unrealistic ...
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Something along the lines of "the dealers would lynch us" if they weren't the first to know about products was mentioned...
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What constitutes a decent sized room for the 20.x? I have a 20'X12' room, is this too small?
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What constitutes a decent sized room for the 20.x? I have a 20' X 12' room, is this too small?
I would say a 20' x 12' room (with, presumably, 8' ceilings?) would certainly limit the sound you could get from a pair of 20s/20.1s ... however, you may still be able to get a decent sound from them.
But don't forget that, compared to, say, 1.6s or 1.7s - which are much more appropriate for that size of room - you will need considerably more amplifier power.
What you would have to do is listen to them nearfield, along the lines of:
* 6' 8" out from the front wall (1/3rd the room length)
* ribbons on the inside, with the panels 4' apart
* sit 6' 8" away.
Good luck,
Andy
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Thanks. Looking to upgrade the 1.7s next year. I've had a lot of different speakers in the room, some of them quite big (Logan Prodigys for instance) and managed to get good sound from them. But the same Prodigys sounded much better in a friends larger room.
I am thinking that if I stick with Magnepan, the 3.7s should do well. I know how to make something around that sound sing in the room.
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From Wendell:
20x ???? I assume you mean any speaker of that size.
Well, actually, from 200 Hz and up, the 3.7 and 20.1 are smaller than a 1.7. A floor-to-ceiling line source is the gold standard and it should be very narrow. Its the bass that makes the 20.1 and 3.7 so large.
The problem with small rooms is usually too much bass/midbass.
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For Wendell.
20.x was a bit of a joke and also bit of whimsy. Assuming that the next upgrade will be to the 20 series. :)
I guess part of the confusion is what constitutes a small room. I've had my room characterized as both small and largish.
I do know that your MG 1 and 3.5 and Logan's CLS and Quest speakers sounded superb (in the room) while the Prodigy didn't seem to breathe and was bloated in the midbass but I never had the opportunity to try the 20.1
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As a relatively new user I didn’t even know about this Questions for the Magnepan Factory thread or that a Magnepan Chat Room existed (not that I know how a chat room differs from this thread or how to participate in a chat room), but based on the suggestion of josh358 I decided to post my questions here though I see some folks were discussing biamping on the Magnepan Chat Room.
Suggest you ask these questions on the questions for the ask the factory thread at the top, I think most of us are as curious as you are. About all I know is that the crossover is located in the woofer, I imagine you can bypass it but I don't know how easy it is or what values you'd need. I do know that the Mini Maggies were shown at CES with a huge Bryston amp, 1000 watts/ch or something, and that they were running it hot.
So can you bi-amp the Mini Maggies like the big ones? I believe some people are even tri-amping their larger Maggies.
Are there any power levels that could damage the Mini Maggies? Is a 300B set amp too little and a 1000wpc Class D amp too much for the Mini Maggies? Is any speaker damage due to underpowered or overpowered amps covered under Magnepan's warranty?
Are there any estimates as to the relative power requirements for the woofer panel versus the tweeter/midrange panels?
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I forwarded your questions to Wendall last night when I saw them in the Mini Maggie thread but no response as of yet.
He may be out and about, hob knobbing with the hoi polloi, so give it some time.
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From Wendell:
Trying to hotrod the Mini Maggie System by biamping etc. will not only mess up the phase response, but, is a waste of money since it performs best as a near-field speaker.
From me:
Power requirements are one of those things that is really difficult to get an answer that isn't found on the Magnepan web site. I've managed to do it but it's like pulling teeth simply because they have no way of knowing just how loud you'll be listening to things, where you'll be sitting, room size, etc.
I would say to be realistic with your power requirements; I normally use anywhere from 5-100WPC on MMGs.
My VTLs don't have meters or LEDs but I would think I see around 200WPC on the big ones when they're really cranked.
Clipping will blow anything up and ribbon damage is not covered under Warranty on my 3.7s. I would imagine it would be the same deal with the little guys.
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Thanks for getting some response from Magnepan. I was hoping to determine in advance what are the best amps for the Mini Maggies without being limited to the amp brands my dealer carries.
From scouring the websites I feel that there are two different themes for amps with Maggies. The first theme is that Maggies love high current and you can never give Maggies too much power. As a side note I seem to recall reading something about speakers being damaged by not enough power, whereas most people may believe that it is high power that may damage speakers. Thus I was trying to determine, all other things being equal, if a 500wpc amp is better for the Mini Maggies than a 1000wpc amp or should I step down further to a 200wpc amp?
The second theme from many people seems to be that Maggies love tube amps. I really don’t know if this is true or if people who convince themselves that solid state amps are better are deluding themselves to believe that a lower cost solid state amp sounds better when the reality is that many of these people cannot afford powerful tube amps.
Thus my interest in biamping comes from recommendations from other websites where someone is using moderately priced tube amps for the tweeters and midrange and very affordable solid state amps for the bass. I didn’t think I was trying to hotrod the Mini Maggies by biamping but now I can’t get it out of my mind that I am putting a 427 big block engine into a sexy Corvette Stingray instead of a stock 327 engine.
Perhaps Wendell’s response is a typical response from Magnepan that speaker mods are not recommended. But in all the Magnepan forums I see nothing but many users trying to mod, tweak and hotrod their Maggies, whether it is modding the frames, removing or changing fuses and biamping or triamping speakers.
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You've just opened up multiple cans of worms with that one!
Let's copy your last post and tackle that over on the Mini Maggie section.
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Has Magnepan ever considered powered speakers? A three way active 20.1 with deqx correction would put magnepan a cut above. Ice power seems well suited for magnepans from my experience. I think both of those guys are always looking for partners (deqx and B & O Ice power). That's the impression I get from their websites at least. Then again, I'm not really in the business.
powered maggies with a mains power plug, spdif in, usb, and maybe a mic for the "deluxe room calibration package"
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From Wendell:
We've found that most of our customers have very strong preferences in regards to amplification - be it OTL, tubes, high power solid state or a combination of tubes and solid state - and they would not appreciate our dictating the type of amplification.
We give general guidelines on our website regarding set up which the owners can take from there. Calibration tools are useful but certainly not necessary.
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I know, building your system is half the fun.
It was just a thought. If you could team up with companies like that they could probably help with engineering and marketing.
Those icepower modules are so small, yet powerful. It's almost like magic.
If you had a super top of the line model like that it would no doubt get a lot of attention from reviewers and such. The real audiophiles would still buy the lower end models and try to make them sound like the top of the line. Buying products from everyone involved in the process. It just raises the bar and one ups the competition.
"Calibration tools are useful but certainly not necessary"
Have you heard deqx correction? It's night and day to the passive crossovers. Fixing group delay is the key. I highly recommend checking them out. They have done projects with speaker manufacturers.
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http://www.deqx.com/oem.php
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How about adding a second DWM woofer to the Mini Maggies? Is stereo separated bass be more desirable than centered combined bass? I'm not sure if this is an accurate description, but I assume that the DWM does not provide any stereo separation by itself but may tend to blend the sound from the separated tweeter/midrange panels together?
Since the DWM woofer has inputs for both L+R channels, does that mean that you have to feed signal to both L+R inputs for the DWM woofer to be fully energized? In otherwords, is there any reason to feed a mono signal to the L+R amp inputs on the DWM since nothing is being blended?
How would you suggest using the DWM woofer or two DWM woofers for any of the other Maggie speakers? Do you suggest: 1. running the DWM woofer and Maggie speaker with full range input from the amp; 2.connecting the DWM woofer to the amp and the Maggie speaker to the DWM using the internal DWM crossover, or; 3. using an external crossover (passive or active) to connect the DWM and Maggie speaker to the amp (passive) or preamp (active).
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I have a laminate floor with padding (over concrete) and wish to mitigate the ill effects of this type of flooring in an effort to get the best sound from my 1.7s.
I think my two stage plan will work well. I ordered Mye stands which will be installed and evaluated. Then I want to place Mapleshade plinthes under the 1.7s. This second step bothers me a bit since that will result in raising the speakers anywhere from 4 to 6 inches (The ceiling is 8'). Will this be a problem or a benefit?
Since these will be in my home, I want something that looks as well as it performs (so concrete blocks, etc are out :)). There are similar stands and devices which have similar costs and I have tried some (with other speakers) and they seem to work well.
I do remember when I purchased my first Maggies I chose the shorter version rather than the taller and only noticed some difference when standing.
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I'll paraphrase the conversation:
rw@cn,
As long as you don't raise them too high you shouldn't have a problem.
They did try stacked MMGs with good results, by the way. That gives me some more ideas.
Robin Hood,
Two DMWs will certainly move more air.
Wendell says to give him a call so he can get a clearer idea as to what you're looking to do so he can give you a better answer.
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Steve, is 5 inches too high? :lol:
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For Ricardo Monteblan's late sidekick, Tattoo, maybe...
Wendell did say that the ideal is a floor to cieling line source which is why the stacked MMGs worked out so well.
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Thanks. If I do this, it looks like it will be more like 7". At any rate, there is a good return policy.
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I'll paraphrase the conversation:
rw@cn,
As long as you don't raise them too high you shouldn't have a problem.
They did try stacked MMGs with good results, by the way. That gives me some more ideas.
Robin Hood,
Two DMWs will certainly move more air.
Wendell says to give him a call so he can get a clearer idea as to what you're looking to do so he can give you a better answer.
Thanks, I will give Wendell a call once I know what I'm doing or what I want to do. Right now I just having fun with Magnepan's newest speakers and exploring the possibilities of using them for a satellite/woofer system. Now stacked Mini Maggies, that gives me some more ideas.
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Hi, Steve. My question is about the size of my room and Maggie 3.7's. My room is 12ft.wide,16ft. long with 8ft ceilings. Are Maggie 3.7's too large for this room. I am currently using LFT8B's which are smaller than the 3.7's. There are no Maggie dealers anywhere near me, so I would have to buy them unheard so to speak and I don't want to make any obvious mistakes. Thanks
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I tried to get Wendell to elaborate a bit more but he just steered you to
http://www.magnepan.com/faq#best_magneplanar_for_my_room
as he feels that's the best answer he can give without being there.
I think that we should kick it over to here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=99906.0
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Thanks to you Steve for setting up the communiction link with Wendell. :thumb:
My question is about single center channel speaker placement (CC5 or CCR if budget permits): I planned to put the main speakers (MG3.7 on Mye stands) about 1.70m (5.58ft) from the front wall. Since I'm more serious with 2-channel than HT, I've been advised to install the center speaker (about 1.07m or 3.5ft above the top edge of my plasma screen) on the soffit/coffering with 3.15m (10.33ft) height and about 1.1m (3.61ft) into the room. Therefore, the center speaker will be about 60cm or 2 feet behind the main spakers, and about 1.3m (4.27ft) above top edge of the 3.7's. Is the placement too high / too far from both tv screen and main speakers for believable dialogue? Or it's quite ok to adjust the angle of the center speaker for acceptable result with this setup?
The new room I'm about to build has planned dimensions of 5.95m (19.52ft) wide; 8.40m (27.56ft) long; 3.65m (11.97ft) high. I'll be sitting about 3.9m (12.8ft) from the main speakers.
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The peripatetic Mr. Diller is off and about (something about a UFO convention in New Mexico) so the official answer will have to wait for a little bit.
In the meantime, I'll copy your post over onto the home theater section as perhaps someone can give you some first hand observations.
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Went to the only local maggie dealer today to hear the MMG's , my buddy wants to buy after falling in love with my SMGA's . So the guy hooks up to a Joida tube amp fed from a Peach tree int , source was a lap top !! First track was ok , next was some Diana Krall , the speaker was farting on the bass , really bad . Kid says "that is the cut out on that model " On to the next DK track same thing and then the next track which I did not know , still had a fair amount of distortion in the low end . My SMGA's have nearly the same specs and there is no "cut out " on them. We came back to my place and played the same 2 DK tracks , perfect ! Are these guys out to lunch ? If so they just lost a sale ! I asked the kid what format he was using for the music , said it was CD quality .
I was pretty stunned as he said a few times that is how the speaker is designed and if you want more you need to go to the 1.7 . Not wanting to argue with an idiot we left .
Too bad they don't have the trial period in Canada.
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Wanna name the store? Or at least the city? :icon_twisted:
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Ottawa
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It's pretty clear they were having problems with either the amp being underpowered or something else. Diana Krall recordings are over produced and not that great (IMHO), but the MMG's should still have no problem with them.
Your buddy should pull the trigger on a pair of MMG's regardless of whether you Canucks get a trial period or not.
Cheers,
Dave.
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I sent somewhat of a rant Sat evening to the stores website and got a response today . I am told the issue was a bad optical cable on the laptop and the amp was making popping sounds when they checked it today . No mention of the "cut out feature " though ,that is designed into the MMG :lol:
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Did they so much as apologize and offer an after-hours test drive to make it up to you? That's what I would have done.
Or you could send them a link to this thread and tell 'em to take a hike. :icon_twisted:
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Perhaps another visit is in order.
Wendell is out hither and yon but I'm pretty sure that Customs and high freight costs are the reasons behind the no in home trials in Canada.
Either that or an elderly family member might bungee cord them onto their feet and use them to go trudgin' across the tundra (mile after mile).
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I talked to my buddy today and he said he wanted to go back , bring his CD player with a burned disc of 5 or 6 of his listening tunes but when I got home and checked my email and had another response from the store mgr or owner I guess and said and I quote
"We determined later in the day that someone had changed some of the settings
on the laptop, resulting in what sounded like distortion. Computers are more
complex than, say a turntable or cd player, but they play music beautifully,
properly set up. We demo all audio equipment with computers, if you aren't
comfortable with that you really aren't our customer.
I forwarded that to my buddy and he said he would never set foot in there again. So bad optical cable ? amp was bad ? speaker design ? and now laptop settings were changed and if you don't like it take a hike . Oh well it is his store and can run it anyway he chooses . Montreal has a dealer , about 3 hours away cause buddy does not want to plunk down $800 without actually hearing a set of the MMG's first.
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Complain to Magnepan.
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+1! What idiots!
What a shame there are so many Maggie dealers in Ottawa, that it'll be tough to figure out who they are. :lol:
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The demo is everything as they say.
Maybe we need a dealer demo thread - the good, the bad and the fugly.
Back to questions to the factory.
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The demo is everything as they say.
Maybe we need a dealer demo thread - the good, the bad and the fugly.
Back to questions to the factory.
It has been a good thing though as as I have been really listening to my old maggies since last weekend , moving them by inches etc . I have the worst room in history for maggies and they still sound great to me . Back to regular programing :icon_lol:
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Hey Steve, could you ask Magnepan if they could supply a frequency response chart of the MG 3.6? Or perhaps a review of the 3.6's that has a fairly accurate freq. chart? Being an older model maybe it would not be as classified, plus that is my current speaker.
I realize that the process is more difficult than with conventional speakers, but still would still like to see what it looks like.
Troy
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Here you go:
We don't have one and I am not sure if there is one from a review. Anyway, move the mic around, move the speaker around, put it into a different room---you can get most any response curve you want.
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Troy, forgive me if we already discussed this -- I have a vague recollection that we did -- but have you checked out Stereophile's review? A very comprehensive set of measurements of the 3.6. The main caveat is that the bass is pushed up because he measured them from 1 meter.
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From the Magnepan website for the DWM woofer:
"Multiple subwoofers are commonly used to smooth room bass response. Although an expensive solution, this technique has been proven to be superior to EQ of a single subwoofer. Using the same fundamentals of acoustics, Magnepan has a solution which can fine-tune the bass and midbass of Magneplanar floor-standing models--- the Maggie Woofer (DWM and DW 1). When both time domain and frequency response has been optimized in a given room, smaller, floor-standing Maggies can begin to replicate the "Gold Standard" of bass reproduction--the Tympani series Magneplanars. Technical details describing this application of the Maggie Woofers can be found in the DWM manual."
Following the above suggestion for multiple DWMs, I have a couple of questions concerning the Mini Maggies and 3.7 Maggies.
Mini Maggies with 2 DWM woofers:
1. Is stereo separated bass more desirable than centered combined bass?
2. I'm not sure if centered combined bass is an accurate description, but I assume that the DWM does not provide any stereo separation by itself but tends to blend the separated L+R tweeter/midrange panels together. Is this true?
3.7 Maggies (or 1.7 or MMG Maggies) with 2 DWM woofers:
3. If I connect the left full range Maggie and left DWM woofer in parallel from my amp left channel and connect the right full range Maggie and right DWM woofer in parallel from my amp right channel, each channel of my amp will see a 2 Ohm load. Is this a correct interpretation?
4. Since the DWM woofer has inputs for both L+R channels, does that mean that you input the L signal to only one input on the DWM woofer, only one-half of the DWM woofer will be playing? In otherwords, is there any reason, such as for full (rather than partial) speaker output, to feed a split L signal to both amp inputs on the left DWM woofer and feed a split R signal to both amp inputs on the right DWM?
5. If I feed split signals to both amp inputs on the left DWM woofer and the left full range Maggie, is the left channel of my amp seeing a speaker load less than 2 Ohms?
6. Would it help if both sides of the DWM woofer were connected in series? I’m not sure if this is correctly worded but for the left DWM woofer I mean, connecting the left + speaker output from the amp with a long speaker wire to the left - speaker input on the DWM, then a short speaker wire from left + speaker input on the DWM to the right - speaker input on the DWM, and then a long speaker wire return from the right + speaker input on the DMW to the left – speaker output on the amp. If wired in series wouldn’t the combined sides of the 4 Ohm left DWM woofer be an 8 Ohm load?
And:
7. What is the best way to hook up 2 DWM woofers with one of the full range Maggies such as the 3.7 or MMGs?
8. Are there any sonic preferences or recommendations for just hookng up just one DWM centered between the full range Maggies?
Finally:
The audio club I belong to has another question that I want to pose to Wendell concerning using DWM panels with other planar speakers.
The specifications for the DWM are given as 40-200 Hz but the Maggie DMW manual states:
“The DWM is a woofer, not a subwoofer. And the superior performance of the DWM, as compared to a subwoofer, is due in part, to extremely wide bandwidth (flat to 5 kHz). The DWM can seamlessly cross over at a higher frequency to any of the limited bandwidth "Maggie" models. However, the higher crossover points require proper time alignment to achieve the most seamless blend between the DWM and the limited bandwidth Magneplanar.”
9. Does the internal crossover limit the DWM to 200 Hz for the Mini Maggie midrange/tweeter panels or is the response of the DWM flat to 5 kHz if no small panel is attached?
I will call Wendell next week to give him some time to digest my questions and recover from CES 2012.
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I can answer this one without even having to ask:
Call Magnepan and ask for Wendell. That's exactly what he'll say.
He's a talker not a typer and he'll be more than happy to answer your questions over the telephone.
It's not what you want to hear but that would be the best route with your questions.
When you get the answers report back, please.
He might be en route to Vegas right now. They're frugal so he may be forced to hitch hike!
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I can answer this one without even having to ask:
Call Magnepan and ask for Wendell. That's exactly what he'll say.
He's a talker not a typer and he'll be more than happy to answer your questions over the telephone.
It's not what you want to hear but that would be the best route with your questions.
When you get the answers report back, please.
He might be en route to Vegas right now. They're frugal so he may be forced to hitch hike!
Thanks Steve.
I called and spoke to Wendell yesterday before posting but as you can see from my post, some of what I am asking can be confusing or misunderstood. I think when I called he had several other people waiting to talk to him and so out of courtesy to others and him I decided to keep our conversation brief and follow up with a clear and concise written explanation of what I was attempting to pursue, clarify and understand.
I am more than willing to call him again but in the interim I would also appreciate comments from others to make sure what I am asking makes sense. I am very respectful of Wendell's time to many other customers and running a business. And while I assume that Wendell is very knowledgeable I thought by writing down my questions would give him the opportunity to think about what I was asking or confer with others at Magnepan rather than instantly responding to my questions hearing them for the first time. Finally I thought a written reply to my questions would be something that I and others could ponder and review for some time.
I don't know about you but when I meet new people and they tell me their names I often forget their names within a few seconds. But if I see their names written on a name tag or business card my memory retention is significantly longer.
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Yeah, right now is a bad time to catch him.
I'll get a better answer for you in a week or two when this show is over.
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Yeah Josh having talked about several things, sometimes the details get a little fuzzy. I know we talked this too but...
Steve, Josh, question for Wendell and your answers are appreciated also. What about open baffle subwoofers for the 3.6's/3.7's do they integrate better than conventional subwoofers? I know you give up bass impact and some low frequency depth, just wondering if in your opinion it is worth the trade off?
Also Josh, what kind of room placement does an open baffle subwoofer require? FYI, I bought an SVS PB2 Ultra last year, which I think is awesome.
However never hearing a dipole open baffle sub myself, I wonder how that would compare. I am sure the SVS would win for movies and low organ music, but was curious how it would do for music vs the open baffle?
I have mine crossed over at 40hz, now I just need to dial in the phase control, para eq, and maybe the Audessy for the bass also. Plenty of room treatments and upgrading as I can.
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Hi Troy,
Open baffle subwoofers are a better match for planars because they have the same directional pattern and radiation falloff (1/R instead of 1/R^2) so you can match them throughout the room. Also, IMO, they're better for music than omnis because they don't excite the lateral and vertical room modes. As you point out, the tradeoff is that they don't play as loud or as deep, unless of course you use a lot of them and lots of power. This isn't a major consideration for music unless you're an organ buff, but if you want to go all the way down to 16 for dinosaur footfalls or pedal notes you can always add a sealed super-sub -- just measure the longest dimension in your room, that will give you the lowest room mode, if you go an octave below that and use a high crossover slope an omni won't cause problems as long as you don't try to drive it below its resonance frequency.
One of the advantages of separate subs is that you can position them independently of the speakers, the bass never seems to be best at the same place as the imaging and dipole woofers do best without toe in. Dipole subs should be parallel to the front or side wall, not toed in, since that would excite more room modes. Beyond that, you have to experiment, since it's different for each room and listening position. Mostly, you're going to be sliding them to and from the wall they're parallel to because that's where most of the modes will be. If you slide them so that they're sticking out 90 degrees from and touching the side walls, you'll get boundary reinforcement and more bass, but you could get too much, you have to experiment. One cool trick: if you have them the same distance from the front wall that you're sitting from the rear wall, you'll get partial cancellation of the remaining room modes. I used to do this with my Tympani 1-D's and it works quite well. Keep in mind while you're doing this that phase matters, you'll have to use the phase control as you move them to keep the polarity right and if you don't have continuous phase control position them at half wavelength intervals vis-a-vis the crossover point.
Measurement can really help a lot here, if you can watch what's happening on a computer screen it's a lot easier to find a good position, but a Radio Shack meter will do, it's just a bit more work.
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I called Wendell today to discuss several questions that I had posted on 5 January. The following are either my interpretations of his answers or my answers. I would hope that Wendell or someone else would correct any misinterpretations in these answers.
Mini Maggies with 2 DWM woofers:
1. Is stereo separated bass more desirable than centered combined bass?
Ans. Stereo separated bass refers to 2 off-centered DWM woofers. Centered combined bass refers to 1 centered DWM woofer. As remarkable the Mini Maggies with a single centered DWM woofer sounds, IMO the analogy is similar to using a single centered subwoofer in a speaker system versus two off -centered subwoofers. The primary difference with this analogy is the fact that subwoofer crossover frequency is much lower, 30-80Hz versus 200-300Hz for the Mini Maggie midrange/tweeter panel.
2. I'm not sure if centered combined bass is an accurate description, but I assume that the DWM does not provide any stereo separation by itself but tends to blend the separated L+R tweeter/midrange panels together. Is this true?
Ans. The configuration of a single DWM woofer centered between separated L+R midrange/tweeter panels does provide great stereo separation in the normal Mini Maggie speaker system basically due to the separated L+R midrange/tweeter panels. I would assume that there is little difference between feeding a single DWM woofer (without the midrange/tweeter panels) a mono signal to the 2 inputs on the DWM compared to a stereo signal to each DWM input.
3.7 Maggies (or 1.7 or MMG Maggies) with 2 DWM woofers:
3. If I connect the left full range Maggie and left DWM woofer in parallel from my amp left channel and connect the right full range Maggie and right DWM woofer in parallel from my amp right channel, each channel of my amp will see a 2 Ohm load. Is this a correct interpretation?
Ans. Connecting two 4 Ohm speakers in parallel will result in a 2 Ohm load to the amp.
4. Since the DWM woofer has inputs for both L+R channels, does that mean that you input the L signal to only one input on the DWM woofer, only one-half of the DWM woofer will be playing? In otherwords, is there any reason, such as for full (rather than partial) speaker output, to feed a split L signal to both amp inputs on the left DWM woofer and feed a split R signal to both amp inputs on the right DWM?
Ans. The DWM woofer has two inputs that are not designated L+R channels. Each input feeds one half of the DWM. The output of two DWM woofers partially fed is equivalent to a single DWM woofer fully fed. Two DWM woofers fully fed is twice the output of a single DWM woofer fully fed.
5. If I feed split signals to both amp inputs on the left DWM woofer and the left full range Maggie, is the left channel of my amp seeing a speaker load less than 2 Ohms?
Ans. I would assume the answer is yes if the correct interpretation is connecting three 4 ohm speakers to the left channel of my amp. This assumes the left 3.7 speaker is 4 ohms and each half of the DWM woofer is 4 ohms.
6. Would it help if both sides of the DWM woofer were connected in series? I’m not sure if this is correctly worded but for the left DWM woofer I mean, connecting the left + speaker output from the amp with a long speaker wire to the left - speaker input on the DWM, then a short speaker wire from left + speaker input on the DWM to the right - speaker input on the DWM, and then a long speaker wire return from the right + speaker input on the DMW to the left – speaker output on the amp. If wired in series wouldn’t the combined sides of the 4 Ohm left DWM woofer be an 8 Ohm load?
Ans. This question was not asked since I simply do not know the relationship of both halves of the DWM woofer and its internal crossover. Perhaps hooking up an ohm meter on this configuration might answer this question.
7. What is the best way to hook up 2 DWM woofers with one of the full range Maggies such as the 3.7 or MMGs?
Ans. In parallel, though the desirability of this setup is to smooth out the bass, not add more bass.
8. Are there any sonic preferences or recommendations for just hookng up just one DWM centered between the full range Maggies?
Ans. None, other than running the Maggies full range.
DWM woofer panels with other planar speakers:
The specifications for the DWM are given as 40-200 Hz but the Maggie DMW manual states “The DWM is a woofer, not a subwoofer. And the superior performance of the DWM, as compared to a subwoofer, is due in part, to extremely wide bandwidth (flat to 5 kHz). The DWM can seamlessly cross over at a higher frequency to any of the limited bandwidth "Maggie" models. However, the higher crossover points require proper time alignment to achieve the most seamless blend between the DWM and the limited bandwidth Magneplanar.”
9. Does the internal crossover limit the DWM to 200 Hz for the Mini Maggie midrange/tweeter panels or is the response of the DWM flat to 5 kHz if no small panel is attached?
Ans. The reference to the extremely wide bandwidth, flat to 5 kHz refers to the woofer response. The internal crossover would limit the DWM to about 250 Hz.
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Thanks for posting that - I gave him a rest as he said that he picked up the creeping crud in Vegas.
The question remains: are you getting a DMW or two?
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I currently have two DWM woofers to play around with. Thus many of my questions were related towards exploring the usage and limits of the DWM in a stereo setup.
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Where's my 12.7?
There's 1.7 for people with big rooms and Mini's for people with tiny rooms.
People with medium rooms are stuck with a 15 year old speaker.
No more discrimination against medium roomers!!!!
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Yeah, what gives?
Where's the MMG2?
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I'm afraid that we won't be seeing any trickle down technology for the MG12s as it would raise the cost too close to the 1.7s.
It seems that people jump from MMGs to 1.7s (or larger) and an updated MG12 would end up being dropped due to poor sales performance as the 1.7 wouldn't cost all that much more.
That's not what you wanted to hear but that's the honest answer.
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Hi Steve,
I just purchased a Mini Maggie Sytem last week New from a local dealer...sounds good except for two things:
1)When I place my ears to both left and right Mini tweeter/mid panels, the sound on the right sounds full but the left channel sounds very soft and akin to much reduced midrange, only soft trebly sound/a little midrange playing. But sitting from far field, the imbalance seems less of an issue, but I just cant help but worry my set has some problems, are the left and right channels supposed to sound imbalance? I tried switching cables and DWM inputs, but it's localised to the DWM issue I guess as both treble/mid panels alternate in balance once I switch the cables over so nothing wrong with the panels and yes I ensures proper polarity on both panels and DWM and amp.
2)Occasionally I get that high pitched screechy sound when playing some tracks with lots of treble, does that mean I must must the 1 ohm resistor to both mid/treble panels? Heard using those can cool down the highs but also zap the dynamics out of the Mini Maggies.
Of the two Im more concerned about the channel imbalance issue (I only realized when I put my ears to the panels left vs right, from mid field listening, not so obvious). This make hamper me from realizing the full potential of the Minis if my set is indeed a lemon or it that a phasing issue?
Anyone else has this prob with their mini maggie system?
Cheers
UV
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Sorry to ask, but are you using a mono source signal?
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Nope, running lossless ape/flac files to an Rega DAC and then Rega Brio-R to DWM woofer...anychance the woofer output (hi) is faulty? Are you guys who has the mini getting nice solid mids/treble from both panels? Or one side with mid/treble, the other with just mainly treble and very very soft surround like sound which I just cant call midrange
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UV88,
I wrote to Wendell but he's probably running around at the show right now.
Is this with ALL sources and did you have this problem with other speakers?
Have you tried a different amp and preamp (if possible) to make sure that the problem lies with the speakers?
Finally, how far away is your nearest dealer?
When I heard the Mini Maggie system both channels were operating the same so something is amiss.
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Hi Steve,
I just purchased a Mini Maggie Sytem last week New from a local dealer...sounds good except for two things:
1)When I place my ears to both left and right Mini tweeter/mid panels, the sound on the right sounds full but the left channel sounds very soft and akin to much reduced midrange, only soft trebly sound/a little midrange playing. But sitting from far field, the imbalance seems less of an issue, but I just cant help but worry my set has some problems, are the left and right channels supposed to sound imbalance? I tried switching cables and DWM inputs, but it's localised to the DWM issue I guess as both treble/mid panels alternate in balance once I switch the cables over so nothing wrong with the panels and yes I ensures proper polarity on both panels and DWM and amp.
2)Occasionally I get that high pitched screechy sound when playing some tracks with lots of treble, does that mean I must must the 1 ohm resistor to both mid/treble panels? Heard using those can cool down the highs but also zap the dynamics out of the Mini Maggies.
Of the two Im more concerned about the channel imbalance issue (I only realized when I put my ears to the panels left vs right, from mid field listening, not so obvious). This make hamper me from realizing the full potential of the Minis if my set is indeed a lemon or it that a phasing issue?
Anyone else has this prob with their mini maggie system?
Cheers
UV
I would take the speakers back to the local dealer for replacement. The dealer will confirm if the speaker is defective and take the required action with Magnepan.
The Mini Maggies are such a fantastic speaker system that there should be no doubt in any buyer's mind as to the exemplary sonic performance of the speakers. My advice is to not settle for anything less and I predict that Magnepan would agree.
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UV88,
I wrote to Wendell but he's probably running around at the show right now.
yes, he was in newport beach, demonstrating (all day long!) the two woofers (one in a table, one as a stand) with a center channel and two wall-mounted speakers, the stealth system. nice sound indeed, and after the demo he would ask people to find the woofer... most could only find one (the stand) but didn't identify the location of the other (the side-table). okay, so the room was a bit dark ;-)
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Robin Hood,
Eliminate the variables first if possible; it may not be the speakers but if so get a replacement.
They should sound fantastic.
I wish I had been at the show, the coverage on this site shows some beautiful systems there. Audio equipment design has really transformed into an artform.
Enough so that I was late to work because I sat around too long drooling over the pictures!
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Thanks guys for the heads up on the mini maggie panel imbalance sound, think it's the DWM woofer unit as amp powering the Mini Maggie channels directly(without connecting to the DWM) sounds good with mids/highs. Courtesy of your suggestion, I have requested my dealer to swap for a new set, otherwise would never know how good these maggies can sound.
Im using just 1 DWM, as a 2.1 master bedroom setup.
Any idea how to correctly (phase and polarity-wise) to hook up another DWM? DO i need 2 separate amps or what? The website doesnt really go into detail with the connection hookups, and Im quite certain a few of us might likely get teh wrong polarity/phasing?? Thanks guys
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If your dealer can't answer that one I'll bet Robin Hood can.
I heard from Wendell and he said to give him a buzz and maybe he can help you out with whatever the deal is over the phone.
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Thanks guys for the heads up on the mini maggie panel imbalance sound, think it's the DWM woofer unit as amp powering the Mini Maggie channels directly(without connecting to the DWM) sounds good with mids/highs. Courtesy of your suggestion, I have requested my dealer to swap for a new set, otherwise would never know how good these maggies can sound.
Im using just 1 DWM, as a 2.1 master bedroom setup.
Any idea how to correctly (phase and polarity-wise) to hook up another DWM? DO i need 2 separate amps or what? The website doesnt really go into detail with the connection hookups, and Im quite certain a few of us might likely get teh wrong polarity/phasing?? Thanks guys
The info you seek is in the DWM manual and is also on the website.
http://www.magnepan.com/manual_DWM#Phasing
Unless you are using an active or passive crossover that limits the low frequency to roughly 250 Hz, I would be hesitant to directly connect the midrange/tweeter panels to your amp. Hopefully the speaker fuse will blow before any damage to the midrange/tweeter drivers but Magnepan is probably most knowledgeable on what torture these panels can take in non-orthodox applications.
I like using my two DWMs centered between the two midrange/tweeter panels. The two midrange/tweeter panels on speaker stands are connected to one DWM on a speaker stand in the 2.1 configuration you describe. The second DWM is on the floor below the first DWM and is powered with a second amp and controlled with a second volume control. In this configuration both sides of the both DWMs are fully powered and the bass is blended to my preferences. I love the DWM bass and I am not sure if one can ever have too many DWMs if one has the money. In this configuration the two midrange/tweeter panels can 12 feet apart with a wide soundstage since the centered DWM anchors the sound and precludes the loss of any center fill.
Magnepan recommends a different configuration for using two DWMs, where each DWM is adjoining opposite walls on the floor and each DWM connects one midrange/tweeter panel. In the recommended Magnepan configuration only one amp is required, only one-half of each DWM is powered but each DWM gets bass reinforcement from the floor/wall position.
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Thanks a bunch for the info Robin and Steve, I received my replacement set which doesnt have the missing midrange sound from one of the panels but alas, to my disappointment, this replacement new set comes with some hideous cosmetic flaw..see pic...should I just stick with it?
..Magnepan shld have some better QC on cosmetics eventhough sound is of utmost priority..these are by no means economical MMG by any standards IMHO.
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If you're not happy with it call Magnepan is all I can say.
They've always stood behind their product.
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Where's my 12.7?
There's 1.7 for people with big rooms and Mini's for people with tiny rooms.
People with medium rooms are stuck with a 15 year old speaker.
No more discrimination against medium roomers!!!!
the 1.7 IS a medium room speaker, as is the 3.7 the 20.7 is a large room speaker...
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Will someone please tell me what audiophiles think are small, medium and big rooms? :lol:
Over the past 15 years, my has been called small, medium and big by people trying to sell me speakers. Oh, it is 20X13X8 (feet).
What I am going to do is put a pair of 12.7s in the room, push them against the front and side walls (between a TV), sit 2ft away (did anyone say near field?) and blissfully enjoy. :thumb:
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Like just about everything else in audiophiledom, small...big...medium are subjective. :)
I've seen a number of "small" rooms that contained larger speakers like 1.6's or 2.X's. I believe the room is too small for those speakers, but the user says "it works great." So, who are we to argue?? :)
Cheers,
Dave.
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Will someone please tell me what audiophiles think are small, medium and big rooms? :lol:
Over the past 15 years, my has been called small, medium and big by people trying to sell me speakers. Oh, it is 20X13X8 (feet).
What I am going to do is put a pair of 12.7s in the room, push them against the front and side walls (between a TV), sit 2ft away (did anyone say near field?) and blissfully enjoy. :thumb:
The reason for the confusion I think is that your room is a bit paradoxical, long but narrow. 13 feet is small, but 20 isn't.
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Assuming the speakers are going in the 13' area, I'd say that your room is 1.7 size.
That would make it a medium speaker sized room in my book.
Normal people would call them gargantuan, room dominating monsters which are WAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY too big and should be replaced by something much smaller.
Luckily, I've been blessed with selective hearing.
Just ask my wife.
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Between the 1.7s and 3.7s the room looks better with the 1.7s but the 3.7s sound better. I would still like to try the 12.7s.
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Hi Steve,
Do you mind enquiring from Wendall & co if the mini maggie treble/mid panels have different versions?
The set that I just bought 2 weeks back had a metal strip that can be taken off from the back of the panel and exposes the tweeter from the rear part. Some pictures online showcase the mini maggie panels without the exposed tweeter from the rear but it seems the grille wrap encloses the rear part of the tweeter making it appear as a continuous grille wrap without any exposed parts.
http://new.audiogon.com/listings/157567
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUOqbam4sJM
Pls check the above two links and you can see there are 2 variants? Which one is new and is there a difference in sound? My dealer said the exposed rear portion of the tweeter is the newer model, but why create a newer variant unless there is difference in sound?? Does the continuous grille wrap cloud the rear tweeter and reduce the airiness in any way?
Cheers
UV88
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Regarding positioning of the DWM woofer for the mini maggie, best same plane as the mid/tweeter panels or in front or behind them? Setup now is along same plane, 45cm above the floor but bass response is ok, a little weaker than a pair of Spendor SA1..is that expected or something amiss with woofer placement...?? Thanks
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Instead of burying you with audiophile mumbo jumbo regarding the never ending quest for audio bliss which necessitated the running product changes, here's the boring truth of the matter:
There is no change in the speaker. We simply put the ribbon under the fabric grille.
This is from me:
it looks like the DMW goes a bit behind the monitors (like shoved back under a desk where your feet won't kick it).
Experiment with placement to see where you like the sound best, though.
When I heard it there was a small REL sub in a far corner behind the desk chair and it all worked really well together.
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I have a question for the Magnepan factory:
Why don't you make headphones?
Think about it: Newcomers like Audeze and Hifiman have been stirring up the headphone biz with some interesting products based on planar magnetic drivers. Magnepan has been making this type of drivers longer than anybody. If they made headphones they would probably be a big hit.
If anyone from Magnepan is reading this... think about it!
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So which one is the newer or the older version? The one with the ribbon tweeter buried beneath the fabric grille or the one with the ribbon exposed and protected by the metal strip (which we have to pry off as it's fasten by a magnet)? In hifi, old vs new version matters i guess, as even speaker cable pods that lift it off thr ground can become a matter of great debate for some audiophiliacs :P
Thanks
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For the headphones from Wendell:
Jim Winey has been working on headphones as long as I can remember. Why didn't we put them on the market? I suppose that a small company has a limit of have many products you can put on the market.
From me: I think that Magnepan's answer to the headphone market is the Mini Maggie System. They're not strapped to your head and everyone around you can hear them, of course, but the sound quality eclipses any headphone I ever heard by a very wide margin.
As for the exposed versus covered Mini Maggie ribbon, Wendell's post indicates that the covered ribbon is the current version. I'd imagine that this was done to simplify the manufacturing process.
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I had a question:
I was wondering about the glue you're using nowadays.
People make such a big deal about UV light so how much do I have to worry about sunlight and the panels?
I also know that glass filters out 90% of ultraviolet.
The answer:
The coating problem is Old News. We haven't a single failure with the new coating--and we have had it in production for many years.
Did this answer your question?
Yes, it did. Now I won't be worrying so much about my speakers reacting like vampires when the sunlight hits them.
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I gather the UV sensitive ones were the very early ones -- first ten years of production. Then they switched to a non-UV-sensitive adhesive, but it turned out to be water sensitive. So for the second decade of production, you have to worry about dampness rather than light! Then Mark Winey started a research project and found the new adhesives, which aren't sensitive to either.
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Finally, an adhesive as insensitive as the owner!
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I'd like to try using the DWM as a woofer in an active bi-amp setup with a crossover frequency of around 500hz. Is there an easy way to change the crossover frequency of the DWM from 200 to 500hz, or to bypass it altogether? I assume the DWM can handle it as it is rated to be flat to 500khz.
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My Q,trying to find color schemes for 3.7's,not on the Magnepan site or net.
I've seen white,black,cherry that's it so far.
Would be nice to see the different color schemes.
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For the colors, give it a few weeks and check their web site as they're doing some updates.
For the DMW,
You can always tear into it, but it would void the warranty. Without knowing the intended use, I am not sure if this a wise move.
I assume the DWM can handle it as it is rated to be flat to 500khz.
I think you meant 5 kHz.
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Steve,
Yes, I meant 5khz. Sorry.
Clarence
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Steve, my listening room is 19' x 27' x 8'. I listen to music and ht about 50/50 and have a rather large subwoofer. Which do you think would work in my room, the 1.7 or 3.7?
Thanks!
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Either would work but I think you'd be best with the 3.7s.
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When can we expect to see an updated MG12?
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The Magic 8 Ball says Prognosis Not Good.
It seems most people jump from the MMGs to the 1.7s.
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I've seen some 1.7s (pics and in person) and the tuning dot spacing is different on each speaker. How do they determine the spacing and why wouldn't they be symetrically placed? (ie. same spacing on left speaker as the right speaker)
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Noway,
No way can I get an answer on this one - proprietary info, I'm afraid.
You'd think the spacing would be symetrical, wouldn't you?
My guess is the answer can be found in this article regarding spatial cues:
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/virtual-surround-sound.htm
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I've seen some 1.7s (pics and in person) and the tuning dot spacing is different on each speaker. How do they determine the spacing and why wouldn't they be symetrically placed? (ie. same spacing on left speaker as the right speaker)
I'm pretty sure it has to so with spreading out the resonances of the membranes btw the left and right speakers, so there not one strong resonance. Large planars are really like a stretched drum head, so you can imgine that they resonant just like a drum head. Ever seen a drummer put little squares of tape or foam on a drum head? It stops some of the ringing and overtones. I imagine the dots are doing the same thing.
Greg
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The answer is right here (in another thread) fellas.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110161.msg1146057#msg1146057
Same reason on the larger speakers as on the MMG's.
Dave.
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Here's a photo of the impedance sweeps of my left/right (woofer only) MMG panels. Notice there are six different peaks and the two lowest frequency peaks from each panel do not line up with each other.
Hope that helps.
Dave.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=69914)
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Thank you for the tuning dot info. Makes sense.
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That tears it.
From now on it's do you have a question for Davey!
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@ Davey:
:scratch: Pardon my ignorance, but why would spreading out the impedence humps affect the sound? I can see an impedence bump affecting the flow of power from an amp, but why make the two channels act differently, especially since the bumps seem minor (at most 0.3 ohm difference).
MGbert
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It's not really the magnitude of the impedance peaks that are of interest. Since these are transducers with much less powerful motors than conventional drivers....and they are essentially resistive....the magnitude of the peaks is not indicative of the SPL rises created by the membrane sections.
If I were to take six different measurements with the microphone very close to the center of each of those "sections" you'd see a much more exaggerated effect.
An impedance sweep is a much easier way to determine their frequency. You can see visually the resonant frequency of each section and not deal with all the variables (and spend all the time) involved in SPL measurements.
It's not easy to subjectively evaluate the effect of the tuning buttons since most folks only have one set of speakers. I have two sets (actually three :)) sets of MMG's and I've auditioned two left speakers and also two right speakers. The two pairs sound different from each other in the bass area. I have to attribute that to the sympathetic panel tuning you realize when pairing speakers like that.
The power amp (a good one) couldn't care less about small impedance peaks like this. It's functioning as a voltage source and the very small current changes at these resonant points are minor.
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Dave.
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@ Davey:
Thanks for the quick and detailed reply. So these peaks serve as a "fingerprint" of more significant audible dips and peaks. Makes sense, but I wish at times like this my engineering training was in electrical vice structural... :)
MGbert
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Is there a a factory recommended way to remove dog and cat hair from the Magnepan socks?
I've heard good things about the Swiffer Duster.
Wendell:
I haven't been asked that one. How about duct tape as you would remove lint from a suit?
Me:
Isn't wrapping the family pet in duct tape considered to be cruely to animals?
Sounds effective, though...
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Is there a a factory recommended way to remove dog and cat hair from the Magnepan socks?
I've heard good things about the Swiffer Duster.
Wendell:
I haven't been asked that one. How about duct tape as you would remove lint from a suit?
Me:
Isn't wrapping the family pet in duct tape considered to be cruely to animals?
Sounds effective, though...
The swiffer is better on dust, but it can help. You could try some rollers which are used for clothes to remove hair. The rubber on them can catch the hair, after rinsing with cold water they are ready to be used again.
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My wife would like to know how many divorces are attributable to the Tympanis, hmmmm?
She then added "you guys are all crazy".
I wonder what she meant by that?
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My wife would like to know how many divorces are attributable to the Tympanis, hmmmm?
She then added "you guys are all crazy".
I wonder what she meant by that?
Well, Wendell does say the market for Tympanis is limited because you need a separate room. Separate bedroom, perhaps?
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My wife would like to know how many divorces are attributable to the Tympanis, hmmmm?
She then added "you guys are all crazy".
I wonder what she meant by that?
She obviously is mistaken... she thinks we're all on the Planar Asylum! (well, actually, some of us are, but around here we PRETEND to take our meds...) :lol:
MGbert
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Do they still sell Tympanis?
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Do you have a question for the Magnepan factory?
Yes, I do have a question. Will you send me a pair of 20.7's for free? :fishing:
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On eBay land and they'll get back to you on the 20.7s sooner or later.
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I have found a dealer in Houston and will see if he will set up some 1.7's at his place of business for me. In a smaller room if he has one as close to mine as possible.
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I just have one thing to say to those Magnepan's folks. I just got the Magnepan Mini System and man....this setup is slap yo momma good!
Thanks Wendell for your help and advise.
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How can you tell the "new" MMGs from the prior two versions?
Here's how you can tell the "new" MMGs from the earlier ones:
Two capacitors as seen from the back side is the "new" MMG.
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Hi! I have a one question; is it anyhow possible to get Magneplanar true ribbons from Magnepan for a DIY project? I really would not want to buy whole 3.x's and break them just to get the ribbons I need.
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Hi! I have a one question; is it anyhow possible to get Magneplanar true ribbons from Magnepan for a DIY project? I really would not want to buy whole 3.x's and break them just to get the ribbons I need.
Yes, you can (probably through your local Maggie importer).
In the US, you can swap old broken ribbons for new ones for, I believe, USD300 the pair. If you don't send them the old (broken) ones back, you end up paying USD600.
Your country importer will probably add a margin - so expect to pay double. I (in Oz) enquired about buying some 3.6 ribbons and was quoted about A$1,300 (USD1,250).
Regards,
Andy
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Give that man a cigar!
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Actually I already asked from the local importer (in Finland) and also from Nordic Europe distributor, and they both said "no" :=(
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Contact Manepan on Monday, they should be able to hook you up.
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(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=84860)
I just finished doing speaker frames for the Magnepan SMGa.
I used 100% clear quarter sawn spruce, same as for piano soundboards.
I might have made a mistake using softwood. There's no sweet spot and the sound seems to be very mild and easy to listen to but the highs are missing. I also did the crossover and might need to break them in first.
Anybody else experimented with softwood frames?
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Here's your answer:
It is likely you did something that affected the highs, but it wasn't the wood. More likely, you inadvertently relaxed the diaphragm ever so slightly.
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Crossover still the same?
Dave.
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Steve:
Can you (or another member) post a picture showing what the back of the new MMGs with 2 capacitors looks like compared to the previous version?
Much appreciated.
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It'll have to be somebody else, Magnepan won't send any nudies and I don't own any new ones plus I am just horrible at putting those socks on. That's an art form for displaced, wizen Inuit ladies, I suspect.
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Steve,
Of course, I'd never ask someone to "undress" his/her speakers for a closer look.
I have the light cloth and can see through a bit using a flashlight.
I see what looks like a single blue or black capacitor on the right and what is probably a red inductor on the left, so probably not the new version.
Would Wendell reveal info regarding serial numbers for the old vs. new versions?
Thanks
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I asked but didn't get a response on the serial numbers.
I don't think that they consider the newer version to be a significant upgrade which is why they barely made a mention of it (unlike the Super Duper MMGs which are supposedly reviewed in the current month's TAS). Maybe my mail lady is a closet audiophile and she swiped my copy.
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It'll have to be somebody else, Magnepan won't send any nudies and I don't own any new ones plus I am just horrible at putting those socks on. That's an art form for displaced, wizen Inuit ladies, I suspect.
Steve,
My current Love, whose adopted name is Debbie, and lives here in Virginia, and whose native Alaskan name is something else, and who has a PHD in Marine Biology, wonders what the Hell this may have to do with anyone like her? :scratch: :lol:
Edit: I'm pretty sure,neither she or I would cut into my new version MMG's socks to take a pic of the electronics.
Although, If it were easy, I might be persuaded to oblige.
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Your "current Love??"
Be careful when you say stuff like that. Just as when I used to refer to my wife as my "first wife." For some reason she didn't like that. :scratch:
One thing's for sure, I REALLY love my second (current) wife. :thumb: :lol:
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Yes Grasshopper! One must be careful not to trip over one's tongue.
Yet when I met Crow (Oh Shit I divulged the name), that is exactly what I did and do. 8)
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I asked but didn't get a response on the serial numbers.
I don't think that they consider the newer version to be a significant upgrade which is why they barely made a mention of it (unlike the Super Duper MMGs which are supposedly reviewed in the current month's TAS). Maybe my mail lady is a closet audiophile and she swiped my copy.
Huh. I didn't know that. Unzipped the issue, and sure enough, there it is.
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Steve-
Thanks so much for asking about MMG serial numbers.
What I'm really interested in is whether the sound I can get by adding a DWM to my MMGs will be close to what I would get with the super MMG setup.
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Well, in keeping with the little we know about the new MMG, which is that it uses some elements of .7 technology, doesn't have a foil woofer, and in photographs looks much the same in terms of tuning dots and such, I'd guess it has a series crossover. The version before that used a single pole parallel crossover -- there's a schematic of it on the MUG site, as well as of the original version. So you should be able to tell whether it's a new version one or not by looking at the wiring.
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buyersremorse,
Give Wendell a call and ask him what he thinks about that.
He'll give you an honest answer.
I have NOT heard either the new MMGs or the Super Duper ones so I can't answer that.
I was really hoping that TAS review would have comparisons but nope.
Wendell did ask about the serial numbers but it looks like the ball got dropped somewhere along the line.
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Well, in keeping with the little we know about the new MMG, which is that it uses some elements of .7 technology, ...
So maybe we/they should start calling it 0.7, as a follow-on to the 0.5 & 0.6.
I recently acquired a pair of 0.5s (have yet to update the crossover to 0.6 spec), and have been quite happy with them.
Tim
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That's pretty clever.
My 0.5s are still going strong after what, 20 years and one rebuild due to doggie wee wee?
Since I got those I've had 0.6s, 1-Cs, 1.6s, 1.7s, IIIAs, 3.6s, 3.7s and 20.7s.
It's never once crossed my mind to get rid of the 0.5s so I guess that says something good about them!
I'm still waiting for Magnepan to build that all foil MMG they threw out there for the guys on the Planar Asylum to take a stab at building.
THAT I will have to buy if they ever make such a thing.
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Steve, you say you bought 0.5 and 0.6, and kept the 0.5 pair? Did you notice much difference between the two?
I have the instructions for upgrading the 0.5 crossover to 0.6 specs, and plan to do it sometime soon. Did you ever do the update?
In keeping with this thread: Question for the Magnepan factory:
Does Magnepan offer the service to perform the crossover upgrade to 0.6 spec if I send my 0.5s in for fixing delamination?
I bought them from my local Atlanta Maggie dealer (Audio Alternative - they sold them through an ebay auction due to the beginning stages of delamination).
I only notice the buzzing on occasion, but will eventually need to get them fixed.
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I wrote to see if they offer an upgrade, I'm sure it's no big deal.
As for why I kept the original MMGs, it might just be sentimental value but I really didn't warm up to the later version for some reason.
They were just another set of speakers to me - decent sounding but I liked the originals better.
Maybe it's just because I've had them for so long they're part of the family, that kind of thing.
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No, I was asking about your 0.5s. You said your 0.5s were still going strong, then you said you later got 0.6s (and others).
I was asking about the difference you heard between the 0.5 and 0.6 models (and wondering why you kept the 0.5s over the 0.6s).
From what I've heard, the only difference between 0.5 & 0.6 is the crossover changes. Is that true? Was there a noticeable sound difference?
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I only used the later MMGs (the .6) for rear channels and when I went to a 2.1 set up they went back onto Audiogon simply because I didn't have any emotional attachment to them.
The old .5s have been with me through thick and thin, many moves and two wives.
Wife number 3 had better dote over them or else it's out the door for her (the MMGs stay)!
In answer to your question, I don't know if the later ones sounded better or not as I didn't put them head to head with the original ones. I do believe it's simply a crossover change between the two models, nothing along the lines of any structural changes.
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I see why I was confused about your comments. You're mixing up Magnepan models. The MMGs and the 0.5/0.6s are definitely NOT the same thing.
Yes, the MMGs had a crossover update (a downgrade, by most accounts - to differentiate it more from the 0.5/0.6 line), and the 0.5 received a crossover update to make it the 0.6 (an upgrade in smoothness), but that doesn't make them the same speaker.
Here are some additional details:
DESCRIPTION INTRO DATE FREQ.-RESP. DIM. (W"×H"×D")
MMG '97 50Hz-24kHz ±3dB 14½"×48"×1¼"
MMG '99 50Hz-24kHz ±3dB 14½"×48"×1¼"
MG-0.5 '91 45Hz-22kHz ±3dB 19" × 50" × 2"
MG-0.6 '94 45Hz-26kHz 19" × 50"
MG-12 '99 45Hz-22kHz ±3dB 17"×51"×1½"
The 0.5 & 0.6 were both introduced before the MMG came into existence, then the MG12 displaced them.
You can see that the dimensions of the 0.6 are quite close to the MG12. The 0.6 is wider than the MG12, but I'm sure it's mostly because of the wood trim on the sides, which extends at least an inch out from the speaker itself.
You can check out specs on most models here:
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/articles/speakers.html
I hope that's helpful.
To be clear, I have the 0.5, not the MMG, and, considering the downgraded crossover on the MMG, I can see why you kept the earlier model.
Edit: Updated specs on 0.5 (details not listed on website linked above, but taken from my owners manual)
Frequency Response specs on 0.5 are identical to MG12 even though physical size is slightly different.
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Sorry, I thought you were making a funny about the MMGs.
No, I have no experience with the ones you have, I got the MMGs when they first came out and then jumped back in time only once and that was for 1-Cs.
A year or so ago I read a thread about 1-Cs being a superior speaker due to the thicker mylar or something like that and you just have to wonder.
The side rails for the 1-Cs still live on with hinges mounted for the MMGs.
Back to our regularly scheduled program...
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Well, I initially made a joke about calling the new MMGs (with DWM woofer) the new 0.7 since it had ".7" tech in it, but then things got a little mixed up. Then again, Magnepan models over the years seem to be a little mixed up too, hence the confusion.
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I stand doubly corrected: Magnepan does NOT offer upgrades unless it's something across the board like adhesives.
The cynical might say it's to sell new speakers which might have some truth to it.
I suspect it's more the case of they've made a couple hundred thousand speakers and trying to keep track of what was done to which pair would just drive the service department insane.
This is what we made, this is what you'll get back is how it is which makes an awful lot of sense.
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Thanks for asking them. Good to know.
I suppose I should have queried how much it would be to relaminate mine, but I can just call them to ask.
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Saw some posts regarding the push-pull design of the series 20.x panels that they could run the risk of damage if the structures move too much from the very loud, low frequencies signals in movies.
Is that true? I'm considering to run my 20.7's full range when watching movies from BD and DVD.
Thanks.
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Where to get the same off-white grill cloth Magnepan uses by the meter/yard? I am not looking for replacement grill cloth.
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Regarding 20.x extension limits:
The diaphragm makes a loud, crude noise when it hits the magnets. No harm done.
From me:
You'd really have to be pushing it to hear that particular loud, crude noise.
I know I never heard that and I have been known to listen at "slightly" elevated levels.
WHAT???
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Thanks, Steve. :)
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You're welcome.
For the cloth, Magnepan says they sell it.
If you wish to try your own skills, you can simply do a search on acoustic speaker fabric or speaker grill cloth and turn up a variety of aftermarket vendors.
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I'm looking into the 1.7, so I called Magnepan to ask about the black discs that are visible through the grill cloth. I asked about their placement, and the woman said "Right, there are two on one and three on the other in a pair". In all the pictures I've seen there are three on both, but in slightly different places. First, are they highly visible because of camera flash, or is the cloth really that transparent? I saw a listing with prices, and the version without the side panels was described as having different cloth than the ones with side panels. True? Do all the 1.7's have the dots in haphazard locations? Having a little case of OCD, I wouldn't like looking at left and right speakers that aren't symmetrical! Do the side panels hide a seam? Do they help make the frame a little stiffer? And what's the verdict on the Sound Anchor stands---effective, and worth the dough? Thanks---EJ.
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I'm looking into the 1.7, so I called Magnepan to ask about the black discs that are visible through the grill cloth. I asked about their placement, and the woman said "Right, there are two on one and three on the other in a pair". In all the pictures I've seen there are three on both, but in slightly different places. First, are they highly visible because of camera flash, or is the cloth really that transparent? I saw a listing with prices, and the version without the side panels was described as having different cloth than the ones with side panels. True? Do all the 1.7's have the dots in haphazard locations? Having a little case of OCD, I wouldn't like looking at left and right speakers that aren't symmetrical! Do the side panels hide a seam? Do they help make the frame a little stiffer? And what's the verdict on the Sound Anchor stands---effective, and worth the dough? Thanks---EJ.
I'll take a stab here on a few of these questions. The "dots" are a design feature to ensure that identical resonances in both panels do not result in "one note bass" syndrome. OCD or not, it is really preferable to have the panels non-identical. And on my MMGs at least, it took a lot of backlight to make the dots visible to the listener, at least with black cloths (nicknamed "socks").
And I used Sound Anchor stands for years before my MMGs got the Magnestand mod. They do the job, and don't screw up the sound doing it. In fact, you could argue that they improve the stability of the panel, which improves sonics a bit... and provides some tip-over accident protection. They also let you adjust the height and tilt of the panels to let you fine tune the sound. I was very happy with them. Although I have not heard them with Maggies, Mye stands have gotten raves, but they are more expensive and elaborate. And the Magnestand mod is a whole other kettle of fish, but not necessarily recommended for 1.7's. The proprietor (internet name Peter Gunn, hence the term "Gunning your Maggies") says the mod is far more beneficial for 1.6 and earlier models. Actually, this is a wild and more polite paraphrase of his actual opinion of 1.7's, but that is a whole other series of threads. FWIW, I don't share his opinion - I think 1.7s are an excellent speaker and an almost unbelievable value. That said, I also love my Gunned MMGs in my claustrophobic 11 foot by 11 foot 4 inch listening room.
Hope this helps... and Happy Turkey Day!
MGbert
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I just looked at mine and there are 3 dots so I think whoever told you differently may have been starting the holidays a bit early.
If the speakers are by a window, at certain hours during the day everything behind the socks is visible, especially with the white cloth, less so with the black.
I'll see if the cloth is different for the aluminum trim models but I believe the MDF for all has a recess in both sides for the trim to slot into.
I'm pretty sure the trim pieces are more for decoration (and protection from accidental bumps into walls and such) than anything else.
Mine have wood strips and those little pieces aren't going to do anything for the sound one way or the other.
From my very limited experience with aftermarket stands they seem to increase the bass output which you'll have to judge for yourself as every room and set up will be different.
P.S.
Having heard MGbert's speakers I'd say they're smaller versions of the 1.7s.
Same sound, smaller package.
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I'm looking into the 1.7, so I called Magnepan to ask about the black discs that are visible through the grill cloth. I asked about their placement, and the woman said "Right, there are two on one and three on the other in a pair". In all the pictures I've seen there are three on both, but in slightly different places. First, are they highly visible because of camera flash, or is the cloth really that transparent? I saw a listing with prices, and the version without the side panels was described as having different cloth than the ones with side panels. True? Do all the 1.7's have the dots in haphazard locations? Having a little case of OCD, I wouldn't like looking at left and right speakers that aren't symmetrical! Do the side panels hide a seam? Do they help make the frame a little stiffer? And what's the verdict on the Sound Anchor stands---effective, and worth the dough? Thanks---EJ.
Steve is correct. The dots are to "distribute" resonances so the system will not drone at one particular frequency.
They're certainly not "haphazard" in location and, by design, they should NOT be symmetrical for left/right speakers. This is part of the engineering design of the systems.
The number of dots depends upon the speaker model. The MMG's have a single dot on one speaker and three on the other.
Cheers,
Dave.
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Great, thanks guys. I managed to see a pair in the flesh yesterday, and that explained a lot too.
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Below is the link to HIFI ZINE's visit of Magnepan facility. There's a picture of the "buttons". :)
http://www.hifizine.com/2013/09/magnepan-inc-a-tiny-giant/
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Hello!
I have a pair of new gen MMG's (March 2013 production). Is it okay to EQ in a bit of boost at 50Hz (say +3 dB) without harming the bass panel due to over driving? No chance of my amp clipping - it's 525W @ 4 ohms. I play the speakers at levels less than 98 dB.
I have a Klark Teknik DN370 and a 1/6th octave RTA. I was pleasantly surprised how flat the speakers were in the range of 250 - 16,000 Hz. Kudos to Magneplaner!
I use the EQ to smooth out speaker response in my room (12 x 20 x 9).
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I'm pretty sure the trim pieces are more for decoration (and protection from accidental bumps into walls and such) than anything else.
Mine have wood strips and those little pieces aren't going to do anything for the sound one way or the other.
Wendell sez there is no difference in the ALU vs. wood, they are only there for decoration.
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As a heads up, I think Wendell is on vacation hunting polar bears with a shotgun or something like that.
Trudgin' across the tundra (mile after mile).
You'd think he'd take his wife to someplace with palm trees but nope!
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No way you hunt polar bears with a shotgun...
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I was just kidding.
I'd imagine they get a little ornery with a backside full of buck shot.
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There's no change in the fabrics for the 1.7s (off white, black or dark grey), just trim piece options.
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The dealer who demo'd them for me said they were not available without the side pieces. I thought they were priced $1999 without and $2099 with aluminum sides, right?
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I'm unsure as to the pricing but they are NOT available without any side trim.
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Okay, thanks Steve. The trim actually looks real nice, making for a "finished" look. The silver on black makes the panels a perfect match with the Emotiva face plates!
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It would match Sonic Frontiers gear, too.
Hmmm...
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Hi Steve,
I have recently bought the 1.7 from the australian dealer (Mcleans) and one of the feet is not upright as shown in the attached:
Hence when installed the feet is at a different angle than the others resulting in an unbalanced speaker. This is like putting 2 of those provided spacers on one feet and none on the other. Is this a normal occurrence?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100259)
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Hi Steve,
I have recently bought the 1.7 from the australian dealer (Mcleans) and one of the feet is not upright as shown in the attached:
Hence when installed the feet is at a different angle than the others resulting in an unbalanced speaker. This is like putting 2 of those provided spacers on one feet and none on the other. Is this a normal occurrence?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100259)
I have that on one of the 1.7's as well.
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I have that on one of the 1.7's as well.
How did you resolve yours? Did you get a new foot?
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So maybe we/they should start calling it 0.7, as a follow-on to the 0.5 & 0.6.
I recently acquired a pair of 0.5s (have yet to update the crossover to 0.6 spec), and have been quite happy with them.
Tim
I actually just heard the new .7's at T.H.E. Show yesterday. Wendell did a programmed 10 minute demo of the speakers, and they sounded very good, I thought. There were no questions allowed, and one group was ushered out as another was ushered in. But I did manage to ask if the Magnepan bass panels, one close to each .7, were on, and he said yes. So the demo was really of the .7's and the bass "subs". I also asked what the retail price would be, and the answer was $1400-$1600. I had heard many box speakers at the show, with the typical small, low-height sound obviously coming out of the pair of boxes, and the .7's sounded, in comparison, much more like live music. Another Magnepan bargain!
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How did you resolve yours? Did you get a new foot?
No I settled with putting something under the foot to keep the speaker from wobbling. Could be improved..
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How did you resolve yours? Did you get a new foot?
It is not straight because of the weld below. I assume that the part of the feet contacting the floor is uneven also. Take it out , put a larger tube on the aluminium feet and pull it out.
Easy task, just be careful not to stratch the paint.
These feet are made pateticly and they still dont want to change it..
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Hi Steve,
I have recently bought the 1.7 from the australian dealer (Mcleans) and one of the feet is not upright as shown in the attached:
Hence when installed the feet is at a different angle than the others resulting in an unbalanced speaker. This is like putting 2 of those provided spacers on one feet and none on the other. Is this a normal occurrence?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=100259)
Did you contact the distributer? If so, what was the answer?
The best solution is to get something like the Mye stand. I expect shipping from Canada would make the price unreasonable, but you might find a local metalworks company that would tackle the job for you.
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The Mye stands are great, but if you don't want to spend what they cost, the Sound Anchor stand for 1.7's are also much better than the stock feet, and are much cheaper than the Myes.
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To project-h20
I think you have a defective foot (feet). Please contact Bill McClean, our Australian distributor.
Sorry to be so slow in contacting Wendell on this one.
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Did you contact the distributer? If so, what was the answer?
Many thanks to all who responded. My local distributor has send out a new foot after recognizing the welds are misaligned.
The Mye stands are great, but if you don't want to spend what they cost, the Sound Anchor stand for 1.7's are also much better than the stock feet, and are much cheaper than the Myes.
It would be very hard to get WAF for the Mye stands, the sound anchors might stand a chance :)
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Hi All,
Does anyone else have a broken tweeter attenuator as shown in left attenuator under the +ve speaker cable in the attached picture? ATM the locking screw has completely fallen off and cannot kept in place let alone be tighten.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101120)
Am I the only one to suffer build quality issues with the Maggies? Are the maggies supposed to be this fragile?
:duh: :scratch:
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Hello I am seriously thinking of getting x2 mini-maggies systems to cover my small living room / man cave space. I have a Marantz SR7500 amp rated for 8-6 ohm and not 4ohm. I was pondering connecting the L front channel to two of the mini's in parallel thus providing an 8ohm load and then doing the same with the other two for the R front channel. Is this possible and how would the DWM subs be integrated into this configuration if possible? Living room is cozy and I think these could knock the socks off the KEF Q1's I presently have in there... not that they sound bad at all. Always seem to be wanting more from my system. The four drivers could be custom mounted on separate stands for each channel. I would definitely entertain the larger 1.7's or Super MMG's but the gal friend/wife/ :scratch: would not go for that. I'm pushing it already!
Hope someone can give me an input.
Cheers.
Skycaptain
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Hi All,
Does anyone else have a broken tweeter attenuator as shown in left attenuator under the +ve speaker cable in the attached picture? ATM the locking screw has completely fallen off and cannot kept in place let alone be tighten.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101120)
Am I the only one to suffer build quality issues with the Maggies? Are the maggies supposed to be this fragile?
:duh: :scratch:
Are the speakers old? It appears (from the photos) that the connectors have suffered from a number of traumatic events.
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Are the speakers old? It appears (from the photos) that the connectors have suffered from a number of traumatic events.
I just received them barely a month ago nicely packed from the dealer with the magnepan seal intact. Is it possible to check the age of the panel?
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I would definitely entertain the larger 1.7's or Super MMG's but the gal friend/wife/ :scratch: would not go for that.
Show her some nice setups of the 20.7s and 3.7s and sell them to her as room dividers. Works for me :icon_lol:
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Show her some nice setups of the 20.7s and 3.7s and sell them to her as room dividers. Works for me :icon_lol:
I don't know what some people are doing but you need to start with the color. Maggies are attractive but black panels belong in the basement, off-white panels are suitable for the living room. What many wives may be objecting to is all the electronic junk that we often put in-between the speakers. All speakers will sound better without audio racks and audio equipment in-between speakers.
Perhaps the folks who complain about WAF appeal need to get an interior decorator or someone else with good taste. I agree with WAF objections to having their partner throw junk in the living room or any other room in the house except perhaps the basement, garage or out-house.
And for the super-critical there are several options, such as the Magnestand Maggies with their beautiful wood or the BG Radia speakers hidden in the wall behind attractive fabric panels. :icon_lol:
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Perhaps the folks who complain about WAF appeal need to get an interior decorator or someone else with good taste. I agree with WAF objections to having their partner throw junk in the living room or any other room in the house except perhaps the basement, garage or out-house.
And for the super-critical there are several options, such as the Magnestand Maggies with their beautiful wood or the BG Radia speakers hidden in the wall behind attractive fabric panels. :icon_lol:
Show her some nice setups of the 20.7s and 3.7s and sell them to her as room dividers. Works for me :icon_lol:
Really appreciate the reply boys... and your inputs as you suggested, however it is her space as well :roll: and to conquering the WAF factor ..the real workable solution that I am pursuing is incorporating their mini Mags systems. I heard them at an office furniture fair display last fall and was blown away with the sound. Amazing for such a desk top system. Yes at a furniture show ..go figure. So if there is a Magnepan factory dude out there who could answer my first post that would be great. Cheers lads.
Skycaptain.
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Really appreciate the reply boys... and your inputs as you suggested, however it is her space as well :roll: and to conquering the WAF factor ..the real workable solution that I am pursuing is incorporating their mini Mags systems. I heard them at an office furniture fair display last fall and was blown away with the sound. Amazing for such a desk top system. Skycaptain.
To give you some idea of how the Mini Maggies might look like in your living room.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101358)
If I had to make the setup look more attractive I would hide the speaker wires and ditch the sub. Also, the speaker stands are cheap and functional but if I wanted something more attractive I would opt for natural wood stands or spray paint the metal stands white or a color coordinated with other colors in the living room. Actually because I have a low wall in my living room about the same height as the speaker stands with 3 feet behind, I do not even need the speaker stands since I could sit the speakers on the low wall. IMO for an attractive living room no other audio equipment should be in the living room. All my audio equipment is in the basement along with my reference speakers.
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To give you some idea of how the Mini Maggie's might look like in your living room.
A most prodigious effort Sir Robin, thanks for taking the time to show me a possible set up. :thumb:
I think you may have something here that could work. :D. I Like those stands as well. Where did you get the ones that the DWM's sit on? They look wide enough to connect (x2) mini Mags on each. Do you think the DWM subs could be positioned down and away from the main drivers? Or do you feel that the DWM subs do not extend bass adequately and that's why you augment with the additional powered sub? Or was that a possible option you showed me for looks?
Now I just need to know if I can hook two mini Mags in series to put an 8ohm load on each R & L front channel of my amp.
Again thanks mate and what do you think of the Mini's yourself?
Skycaptain over and out.
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The Mini Maggies are the most impressive speakers that I have heard from Magnepan since the Tympani IVa and for the price they can't be beat. Many of the other larger Maggies sound good but I was never impressed with them to spend money and I knew if I got them I would always be wanting more. That said I haven't heard the 3.7i or the 20.7 speakers, so I can't say that those would leave me wanting. The Minis are very special and I knew I wanted true ribbons and the bass technology from the 20.x speakers.
The DWMs are woofers, not subs, since they only go down to 40Hz. I believe the DWMs cross over to the midrange/tweeter panels around 250Hz so there is a lot of mid bass. So you should not locate them too far from the midrange/tweeter panels unless you locate the DWMs centered between the left and right speakers.
The speaker stands were from Pangea, nothing special but cheap about $50 on sale and I filled them with steel shot. I actually use the same stands for my Audioengine 4 speakers in a home theater system in another part of the house. The satellite panels are attached with Blu tack but the DWMs are bolted to the stands so you may be looking at the DWM wood base. That said it is easy to bolt a wider plate on any speaker stand to support two satellite panels. I had originally planned to develop a custom stand to support two satellite panels vertically (optimized for seating and standing positions) with one DWM below for each channel.
The sub in the picture is a Genesis G-928 bipole sub and I use it because I have multiple dipole and bipole subs. Does it make a difference - yes, is it worth the money - yes, is it absolutely necessary - no. But because of your WAF concerns I would go with either multiple DWMs or in-wall BG Radia subs as your funds allow.
Regarding your last question, I'd defer to Magnepan or someone else if you are willing to modify your Maggies. If you use the standard Maggie input and speaker connections, you could connect two satellites to one DWM for the left channel and ditto for the right channel but I believe that's still 4 ohms. Whatever you decide you'll find the Mini Maggies to be very enjoyable speakers and something that any critical WAF will accept so long as you don't bring the other audio gear in the room.
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Skycaptain,
Sorry to be so slow but I've been really busy of late.
Wendell is out doing a dealer tour of the Canadian Rockies and said that your question would require a phone call.
Can you call him in early July? If not, remind me and I'll find out for you.
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Thanks again for your input Sir Robin. I appreciate all your input so far. Your latest post helps to ratify my decision to proceed along this path. I have a couple subs in my present system, but now knowing the DWM's don't extend much below 40Hz I will consider keeping those. I really like your idea of mounting two satellite panels vertically with one DWM below for each channel. I was thinking a slighly different configuration, See attached diagram. Your thoughts?
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101423)
Thanks Steve for your reply. As I live in B-E-A-U-T-itiful Vancouver, BC, it is on the West Coast so it is
a tad far away from the Canadian Rockies, However if you have an email for Wendell that would be great.
If not.. I will try to contact you later in July. Main question is in regard to connecting two minimags
+ DWM's so that the load is 8 ohms on each front channel.
Skycaptain - over'n'out
8)
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Wendell is a talker, not a typer so I'll call him for you when he gets back.
The Mini Maggie system sounds great; that set up you're proposing looks interesting.
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Skycaptain,
Your configuration looks interesting. Since you are looking at the VTI-DF stands I suggest buying one DF19, one DF24, and one DF36 stand to experiment what configuration sounds best in your room. The choice is two of the midrange/tweeter panels mounted on the DF24 as you depict or one panel mounted on the DF19 and one panel mounted above on the DF36.
My main concern is the Marantz SR7500 that is really a home theater amp and may not be suitable for driving Maggies. Would you be willing to modify the Maggie internals and void your warranty if that is the only way to achieve 8 ohms? Would you be willing to sell the Marantz and buy a suitable amp? Will your setup be for music only or do you plan to use it for home theater? If you are interested in multichannel audio or home theater using the Marantz SR7500 amp, I suggest four or six Audioengine 4 speakers instead (LF, RF, LR, RR, LC and RC for video recommended). If not, I suggest changing or be prepared to change your amp if it doesn't work well.
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Skycaptain,
Your configuration looks interesting. Since you are looking at the VTI-DF stands I suggest buying one DF19, one DF24, and one DF36 stand to experiment what configuration sounds best in your room. The choice is two of the midrange/tweeter panels mounted on the DF24 as you depict or one panel mounted on the DF19 and one panel mounted above on the DF36.
My main concern is the Marantz SR7500 that is really a home theater amp and may not be suitable for driving Maggies. Would you be willing to modify the Maggie internals and void your warranty if that is the only way to achieve 8 ohms? Would you be willing to sell the Marantz and buy a suitable amp? Will your setup be for music only or do you plan to use it for home theater? If you are interested in multichannel audio or home theater using the Marantz SR7500 amp, I suggest four or six Audioengine 4 speakers instead (LF, RF, LR, RR, LC and RC for video recommended). If not, I suggest changing or be prepared to change your amp if it doesn't work well.
How do Sir Robin, I own x4 DF24's already so thus my reference to that particular stand. The SR7500 is rated to 6 - 8 ohms and that the 4 ohm loads for the maggies could ouch the amp. :nono:
However I'm not going to modify the Maggies and risk a warranty void, but simply change the connection sequences between them and my amp to bring the realized load to 6-8 ohms. See attached image for what I think will work.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101560)
Skycaptain...oer & out
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SkyCap:
You are missing one connection on your diagram, to complete the 8 Ohm circuit you also need to "serialize" the inputs to each DWM panel, similar to the "-" > "+" on your Mini pairs.
My other concern would be the Mini's placed side by side, the tweeter spacing may lead to horizontal treble comb filter interference. The Mini's might work better stacked on top of each other.
Your receiver has line level outputs, start saving up for a good quality used amp : )
Shawn
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SkyCap:
www.magnepan.com/www/images/DWMwiring.pdf
You are looking at the first setup. Think directional flow "+" to "-".
Disconnect everything! and connect .....
= Amp Left Out + > Dwm Amp In Left +
= Dwm Amp In Left - > Dwm Amp In Right +
= Dwm Amp In Right - > Amp Left Out -
That's the 8 Ohm series connection from the Amp to the Dwm.
Same style for the DWM to the Mini's
= Dwm High Out Left + > Mini_1 In +
= Mini_1 In - > Mini_2 In +
= Mini_2 In - > Dwm High Out Left -
Or you could buy 4 channels of 4 Ohm capable amplification and follow the original diagram exactly ( times two : )
Shawn
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SkyCap:
You are missing one connection on your diagram, to complete the 8 Ohm circuit you also need to "serialize" the inputs to each DWM panel, similar to the "-" > "+" on your Mini pairs.
My other concern would be the Mini's placed side by side, the tweeter spacing may lead to horizontal treble comb filter interference. The Mini's might work better stacked on top of each other.
Your receiver has line level outputs, start saving up for a good quality used amp : )
Shawn
Your input is very interesting...very interesting indeed! :wink:
Thanks and I have revamped the diagram for one set LEFT Channel. Then I would repeat for the RIGHT channel.
Let me know if this is what you meant for wiring configuration. I'll consider the vertical stacking for the mini's.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=101587)
Take care.
Skycaptain ovr & out
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You didn't ask me, but I'll tell you anyhow :icon_lol:. The Mag-1 and Mag-2 should absolutely, incontrovertibly NOT be placed side-by-side. That will unquestionably created horizontal lobing, and comb-filter phase cancellation and frequency response problems. If you stack them vertically you will have created a nice line-source speaker, increasing the two panel's output without creating any of the aforementioned problems.
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SkyCap: Bingo(ish) ...
The only ambiguity in your drawing is the final return path from mini_2 "-" to the dwm "-".
Without knowing the details of the DWM's internal high pass circuit, the safe bet would be to leave both of the DWM's High Out Rights unconnected. and connect Mini_2 "-" > DWM High Out Left "-".
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.-- Yogi Berra
The more I think about it, the more I would run the final version by the Master.
Shawn
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Thanks bdp24 and Shawn for both your inputs. :thumb: Very much appreciated guys.
I'm looking so forward to getting these bought and set-up. As of yet I have not located a dealer here in Vancouver, BC but may actually pop over the border to Seattle to purchase and bring them up. I will await Master Jedi Wendell to comment directly or via Steve. If all works out, I will post images and review of project.
Skycaptain ovr & out.
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SkyCap:
I think "Yogi Berra" wins this round, "In practice it doesn't work."
The DWM has internal passive crossovers that are expecting a specific load, start connecting things in series or parallel and the anticipated load values are out the window.
The crossover points will be moved off the intended frequency.
I see a new (used) power amp in your future.
Shawn
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SkyCap:
I think "Yogi Berra" wins this round, "In practice it doesn't work."
The DWM has internal passive crossovers that are expecting a specific load, start connecting things in series or parallel and the anticipated load values are out the window.
The crossover points will be moved off the intended frequency.
I see a new (used) power amp in your future.
Shawn
Damn those Yankees!!! No doubt you seem quite knowledgeable on the topic Shawn, but as I started out on this quest, I will await an input from the factory guys. You never know they may come up with have a solution....like get an compatible amp! :duh:
Take care.
Skycaptain.. ovr & out
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The only thing that could help you, would be a use of some autoformers like
speltz. They rise the impendance to your desired value and they do it with only minor( in your case when using this amp) negative impact to the overall sound.
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Autoformers are not without trade-offs. They can "shift" impedance higher at higher frequencies, but they still present a really low impedance at lower frequencies. This can cause issues with some amplifiers. These are generally better suited for tube amplifiers and not solid-state.
Skycaptain, You realize that if you series-connect the speakers your 100 wpc amplifier is now a 50 wpc amplifier? That might still be enough however.
Dave.
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Autoformers are not without trade-offs. They can "shift" impedance higher at higher frequencies, but they still present a really low impedance at lower frequencies. This can cause issues with some amplifiers. These are generally better suited for tube amplifiers and not solid-state.
Skycaptain, You realize that if you series-connect the speakers your 100 wpc amplifier is now a 50 wpc amplifier? That might still be enough however.
Dave.
Not what I heard ...
http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/zero_autoformer_e.html
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That's just a subjective "review" by a reviewer who has no technical background and a basic misunderstanding of the supposed requirement for impedance matching.
I'm talking about objective concerns here. Like possible significant DC currents in the autoformer when connected to certain solid-state amps. This is a well known possible issue and Paul (rightly so) even mentions this on his website. (Or at least he did years ago when I read it there.)
However, that's not to say they won't work fine with certain amplifier/speaker combinations. Just saying that possible issues should be understood.
This thread is getting well off the "question for the factory topic." :)
Cheers,
Dave.
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An Autoformer hooked up to a SS amp? As I understand it, it's raison d'etre is to bring the nominal impedance of a low-impedance speaker up to the higher-output area of a tube amp's power envelope. Speltz uses the example of Audio Research amps and Magneplanar speakers, but they're more commonly mated with OTL amps. Roger Modjeski points out that his MR-200 amp actually increases in output power as the load impedance drops, but his amp is the exception. Roger also bucks the common wisdom by stating that OTL's are a bad match with ESL speakers.
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This thread is getting well off the "question for the factory topic." :)
Cheers,
Dave.
Thanks for the inputs guys but I agree,with Davey that the comments although a result of my original inquirers would probably best be served on perhaps another related thread :?.
I am awaiting some input from the factory on this and will most likely look into a amplifier to power the front mags separately. I checked out one of Speltz's own sites, the cost of the 2 autoformers could easily get me a nice NAD mini amp to power the front channels quite nicely. I am now seriously considering a super MMG option or a pair of 1.7's…. much to the chagrin of keeping it a WAF happy enterprise. :duh:
http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMG.
I have yet to decide on anything and it will depend on what information I get back from the factory.
consequently after checking out Speltz's site (http://www.zeroimpedance.com/) I may pick up a set of his 'Anti-cables'. Check it out!
Skycaptain… over & out.
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A pair of naked Autoformers is $540, and it's lead out wires can be ordered long enough to take the place of speaker cables. That makes it quite cost-effective in an appropriate system (a normal tube amp mated with a pair of Magneplanars).
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1.7s are not a bad choice at all but you'll really be best off getting an amp that does 4 Ohm loads or else it could be crispy critters time.
Ask me how I know that one...
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Steve,
Now that you've let on that something "fun" happened, you have to fill us in on the details.
The 1.7 drops to a little less than 2 ohms at 20k per HomeTheaterHifi's review of the 1.7s (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/floor-standing-speakers/floor-standing-speakers-reviews/magnepan-magneplanar-mg-17-flat-panel-quasi-ribbon-full-range-speakers/page-4-the-magneplanar-mg-1-7-speakers-on-the-bench.html). Yikes.
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No fun, I'm afraid, just lots of agita.
Let's just say I've fallen in love with my wife all over again and leave it at that.
She's a good one.
To get back on track, good find on the link. I'll add that to the on-line review section.
A stout amp is a must with these guys. Smoking electronics really can stink up a room...
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1.7s are not a bad choice at all but you'll really be best off getting an amp that does 4 Ohm loads or else it could be crispy critters time.
Ask me how I know that one...
A high-current SS amp really is the way to go with Magnelanars. In the old days (the 70's), audiophiles were willing to sacrifice just about everything in order to get the grain-free transparency and sound-stage depth, et al, that only the tube amps of the day could provide. Now that there are reasonably-priced SS amps that possess grain-free transparency and imaging, that sacrifice is no longer necessary.
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This topic has been posted before, but to my knowledge has never been cleared up or addressed. I have after market fuses on the way that are directional in their design. I'm trying to find out where at the fuse holder the signal flow enters and where it exits? I would like to know the direction of the signal for both the tweeter and mid range fuse holder. For reference, looking at my installed 3 .7i speakers, does the direction of the signal / path go Up (floor to ceiling) or down (ceiling to floor)? Any help with this topic would be appreciated.
Thanks
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It has been addressed. It's just that some folks refuse to believe the conclusion. :)
Fuses are not directional......and even if they were it wouldn't make any difference in this case since it's an AC circuit.
Any other conclusion (or claim) is a non-sequitur.
Dave.
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My question is about the 3.7i xover design and specifically the signal to path the fuse holder, that's all, nothing else. Respectfully, I ask folks to stay on topic and please not turn my question to debate about the usual, that can't make a sonic difference. Really please, I just want my question answered.
Thanks
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I answered your question. It won't make any sonic difference which way the fuse is installed.
If you try installing the fuse both ways and you hear a difference........then you're hearing things. :)
I don't care what the manufacturer says. If they claim these fuses are directional in an AC circuit, then they're full of it. :)
Some things are true whether we believe them or not. :)
Dave.
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It has been addressed. It's just that some folks refuse to believe the conclusion. :)
Fuses are not directional......and even if they were it wouldn't make any difference in this case since it's an AC circuit.
Any other conclusion (or claim) is a non-sequitur.
Dave.
I disagree with the second half of the middle line. :)
I think the better way to state your point (and it's better because it turns the tables on the erroneous concept) is that if the fuses are directional, then they aren't appropriate for this application.
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There's always a critic. :)
I'm getting really good at sensing when people are not getting the answer they want to hear. And I think we have a case here.
I can tell Vangelis that there is no signal entry or exit on the fuse holders....and that the fuses are not directional....and that there is no signal direction for anything.....but I just don't think it's the answer he wants to hear.
Dave.
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I have a question for the Magnepan factory. How does it feel to make such incredible speakers? I fired mine up last night after many, many months of running something else, and if you have the space for their displacement, there is no replacement. Or something like that :thumb:
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Here is the official answer to the great fuse controversy:
An audio signal is alternating current (AC). Current goes both directions. We have never heard a satisfactory explanation why these devices are directional. A diode is directional, but you would not want that in the signal path.
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There's no "great fuse controversy." :) But, it's a good answer from Magnepan and completely correct.
There is no direction of signal flow for tweeter and midrange fuse holders. There is no entry or exit......whether it's a 3.7i design (or any other.)
The directional installation requirement for these "directional" fuses is complete nonsense.
Dave.
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There are a couple of great threads concerning the issue of fuses on the Music Reference AudioCircle forum. Before you put a Hi-Fi Tuning Fuse in your tube power amp, you will want to read what Roger Modjeski has to say about them. Hopefully BEFORE your amp is damaged by one!
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Yeah - lets please not migrate the fuse debate over to the planar circle. Think that one's :deadhorse:
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I don't really think there's a debate or controversy on the HiFi tuning fuses. They're a total snake oil product, plain and simple.
Regarding regular fuses......I think Magnepan should get rid of fuses and fuseholders entirely on their speakers. They serve no useful purpose at all, but provide multiple possible connection failure points and also possibilities for distortions even when the fuses are intact. If some sort of protection for the ribbon tweeter is deemed necessary, there are way better safety options than fuses.
Dave.
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It would seem that the fuse thing is perhaps a legacy remnant for Magnepan design and unnecessary and detrimental. But perhaps those guys have some reason I as a non engineer am missing.
So that would be a good Magnepan question : why the fuse / fuse holder? Is it REALLY necessary, or just something they think they need from a product reliability / liability stand point?
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Yeah, I think that's probably correct.
However, I'm not convinced there's a reliability (or even liability) concern here, any longer. Power amplifiers are much better designed nowadays with respect to protection of both themselves and the speaker load.
If a liability concern, Magnepan should simply state they are not responsible for damage to drivers from poor/marginally protected amplifiers.
Any potentially damaging transients that might make it to a speaker load are most likely externally created and would not be prevented by a fusing scheme anyways.
For the life of me, I can't figure out why somebody would want to insert HiFi Tuning fuses in their signal path. But, the mind of an audiophile works in mysterious ways I guess. :)
If there's a concern for the ribbon tweeter, I would use a resetable polyswitch.
Dave.
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You ask, you get:
The fuses are needed to protect the drivers. That is what fuses do.
---------------------
They have protected my speakers over the years when upstream components (amps, preamps) decided to blow themselves up.
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Yeah, I guess that's what I'd expect them to say. :)
However, the query here is less about the "protection" aspect of the fuses but more about the non-linearities of the fuse under normal operation. It seems like that aspect of the fuse operation might not be understood by them. :)
Replace the existing fuses temporarily with a 30 amp glass fuse and see if you can't hear the difference immediately.
Anyways, depending upon the failure, it's speculative to assume the drivers wouldn't have survived if the fuses weren't there.
Oh well.
Dave.
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Steve, There are threads even with in the Planner circle to debate issues and make make blanket statements regarding how a listener can't possibly be correct in their interpretation. My assumption here is that this / your thread titled "Do you have a question for the Magnepan factory" was to be conduit to consolidate questions that Magnepan owners can ask questions to the factrory. I was in error. Perhaps my mistake was to frame the reason for my question. it's clearly apparently that you feel my question is without merit. Perhaps you might make a disclaimer that only questions you consider valid will be passed on to Magnepan. Thank you for your consideration.
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This is not about contradicting anyone's personal interpretation. Your initial assumption is simply erroneous – there is no signal flow direction. Steve posted Magnepan's official response (Magnepan is the 'We' at the start of the third sentence - the fourth sentence echos my previous comment). Ergo, your latest assumption is also wrong – you were not snubbed. I'm sorry that you find the answer unsatisfactory, but that is the only answer that could have been given. Steve does not need to add the disclaimer you suggest, nor does the reason for your question have anything to do with the meaning of the word 'alternating' (alternating current).
As a matter of fact, Dave's initial reply was restricted to your question. His reply presaged Magnepan's. It was a simple statement of fact, completely devoid of value judgment. In an AC circuit, the signal flow is bidirectional.
The correct answer to your question is the best answer you can be given, even if it's not the answer you want to receive. Would you rather someone lie to you?
I don't know about you, but I continue to learn (about as much as I can). Often, learning forces me to change the way I think about things. Embrace these chances for adjusting your paradigms – they represent the power of culture at its best.
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I think he's received a reasonable and reasoned response to his question. He is also welcome to ask Magnepan directly if he wants the same answer repeated directly from them, or contact the fuse manufacturer to see if they have anything else to say. I don't detect any bias or refusal to recognize merit in Steve's response to his question.
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Those are the answers from Magnepan.
An audio signal is alternating current (AC). Current goes both directions. We have never heard a satisfactory explanation why these devices are directional. A diode is directional, but you would not want that in the signal path.
The fuses are needed to protect the drivers. That is what fuses do.
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Gents,
This one's a no-win situation. Ahem.
It's irritating...to me at least...that these kind of snake-oil products foster this kind of misunderstanding in the audiophile community. I wish I knew the solution. :(
Oh well.
Dave.
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Don't buy their stuff, I guess.
Okay, back to Questions Only, please.
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Hello Steve,
I am french but never could have any answer about my Magnepan 3.7. Perhaps, you could...
I wrote to the french distributor and couldn't have any answer, either.
Could you tell me if it is possible to upgrade 3.7 to 3.7i in France/Europ. And if not, how to do it when you are a foreigner?
Best regards, teiki.
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Here's the word:
Unfortunately, the mods can only be done at Magnepan.
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Thank you so much for your answer. But what a pity for us... :(
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Yeah, I guess that's what I'd expect them to say. :)
However, the query here is less about the "protection" aspect of the fuses but more about the non-linearities of the fuse under normal operation. It seems like that aspect of the fuse operation might not be understood by them. :)
Replace the existing fuses temporarily with a 30 amp glass fuse and see if you can't hear the difference immediately.
Anyways, depending upon the failure, it's speculative to assume the drivers wouldn't have survived if the fuses weren't there.
Oh well.
Dave.
Sorry to be late to the game, just wanted to say that they do know about it, in fact Mark Winey runs his 3.7's without fuses and reports a slight increase in clarity. However, he also warns that you'd better know your system if you do! Melted Mylar can be an expensive surprise. Besides, everyone knows that the function of ribbon tweeters is to protect the fuse . . .
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There was a lot of press about the "mystery speaker" shown at CES 2014 that turned out to be MMWs/MMGs/DWMs, but no real follow-up that I could find. I already have the "parts" (speakers at least) and would like to recreate that combo to listen for myself. Any guidance from Wendell (or the AudioCircle community)? I'm hoping I won't need the Bryston magic processor.
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The Bryston processor played a big part in making that show successful.
From me: if you want more info on Tri-Center, call Magnepan and ask for Wendell.
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The Bryston processor played a big part in making that show successful.
From me: if you want more info on Tri-Center, call Magnepan and ask for Wendell.
Appreciate the advice. I spoke with him briefly when I first purchased MMGs+MMGWs+MMGC speakers. At that time (which was after the first descriptions of the "tri-center" approach but before the showing of the "mystery speaker") he said he didn't recommend the MMGW/MMGC combo for that application--I'm interested to see what changed his mind.
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Wendell's not real big on typing which is why he always says to call. Maybe he does hunt and peck with two fingers? :D
I know he's real big on the Tri Center but he doesn't expect it ever to catch on in a big way. When Josh went up there he said something like it makes stereo sound like it's broken or missing something or words to that effect.
Probably the best approach would be here's what I have in the way of equipment, what I'm looking to do is replicate the sound that I heard at the show, what do I need to do in order to get that to work in my home? I'll need that Bryston piece and what else will be required?
Let us know what he says, please.
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Wendell's not real big on typing which is why he always says to call. Maybe he does hunt and peck with two fingers? :D
I know he's real big on the Tri Center but he doesn't expect it ever to catch on in a big way. When Josh went up there he said something like it makes stereo sound like it's broken or missing something or words to that effect.
Probably the best approach would be here's what I have in the way of equipment, what I'm looking to do is replicate the sound that I heard at the show, what do I need to do in order to get that to work in my home? I'll need that Bryston piece and what else will be required?
Let us know what he says, please.
OK, had a chance to chat briefly with Wendell. His first response was that trying to reproduce the Mystery Speaker set-up at home would be impractical because of the associated expense (i.e. processor) beyond the actual speakers. It made sense to do it at CES to demonstrate what low cost Magnepan speakers can potentially sound like, but the extra dollars otherwise would be better spent on speakers higher up the product line. I then pushed a little bit and got the following tidbits. With the Bryston processor, use Pro Logic II Movie mode, crossover at 200hz, and no sub. Use Y adapter for Tri-Center (should have asked for more details about this--does anyone have more specific info?). DWMs not required for the effect, but were needed at CES because the room was big. I may have a chance to borrow a Bryston SP2, in which case I'll give it a try.
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Yeah, give it a try!
That's Wendell - he always gives good advice but if you persist he'll help you do something outlandish!
I'll be headed his way next Spring and really want to hear the Tri Center and see if that's in my future. I'm using 3.7s and I do have enough room to flop one on it's side in a custom Mye stand so maybe that's what I'll end up with.
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Yeah, give it a try!
That's Wendell - he always gives good advice but if you persist he'll help you do something outlandish!
I'll be headed his way next Spring and really want to hear the Tri Center and see if that's in my future. I'm using 3.7s and I do have enough room to flop one on it's side in a custom Mye stand so maybe that's what I'll end up with.
3.7 on its side? Interestingly, Wendell identified the MMGc as the weak link in the set-up I want to experiment with, and he recommended upgrading to the CC5 as the center. Have you compared a sideways 3.7 to the CC5?
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No but I do own both speakers and have heard the MMG-C.
The CC5 is a big step up from the MMG-C as it sounds more like a 3.7 than an MMG.
What the CC5 will do is give you the wide dispersion pattern but it won't have the bass that the big panel will, obviously.
My wife and I went back and forth between her system (MMGs/CC5) and the living room system (3.7s) and the sound was surprisingly similar. The real difference was better highs and lows from the 3.7s, the rest of it sounded pretty darned close.
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OK, I got a hold of a Bryston SP2 to play with over the weekend to create some tri-center magic. Can't call Wendell for help, so does anyone have an answer to the following:
From what I understand, I should be splitting the center channel output from the SP2 with a simple Y RCA connector. One branch feeds the amp input for the center channel speaker and the other feeds the amp input for the wall-mounted side speakers that are wired in series. If so, there seems to be no simple way to balance volume or delay between the center and sides. Am I missing something?
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I know he's real big on the Tri Center but he doesn't expect it ever to catch on in a big way. When Josh went up there he said something like it makes stereo sound like it's broken or missing something or words to that effect.
The Tri Center isn't for everyone in terms of cost, space and sound. It does make stereo sound like it's broken or missing something but so will the QOL Signal Completion Stage, the Rupert Neve Portico 5014 Stereo Field Editor, or 5.2 Surround Sound.
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Had a fun afternoon yesterday playing with some new toys (although my back is sore from sitting on the floor plugging and un-plugging cables, moving amps and speakers, etc.).
Components were MMG, MMG-W, MMG-C, Oppo DVD player, Bryston SP2 processor, 4 Adcom 555 amps in bridge mode (one for each channel). Also had a pair of 3.6s on hand for comparison. Here are some initial thoughts.
1. The single biggest change was what Dolby PLII-movie processing did--drove tons of information to the center channel in a way that seemed too "focused" for my tastes when only the center speaker is used. With the wall mounted speakers added, the effect was interesting--definitely fuller, less artificial, and a wider sweet spot for listeners compared to center speaker alone. Compared to 2 speaker stereo, spatial information (at least left-right) does seem more stable, particularly for things near the center of the sound stage.
2. Still have a lot of things to try, but best result so far has come with the center speaker a foot in front of the wall mounted speakers and the delay set so that the processor thinks the center channel is about 4-6 feet behind the mains.
3. Not surprisingly, Tri-center highlights any deficiency in the center speaker. I was never unhappy with the MMG-C in my conventional 5.1 setup, but now I feel a strong need to upgrade.
4. Overall, the MMG/W/C Tri-center does sound better to me than the same speakers in a conventional (single center speaker) set up, but the sound from a pair of 3.6s in conventional stereo makes me happier than what I have been able to obtained from the Tri-center using "lesser" speakers. Maybe there is more magic to unlock, so I'll tinker a bit more.
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How long do you have the 3.6s and the processor for and where are you located?
Perhaps there's someone nearby with a 3.6 or 3.7 to try as a center speaker?
Here's a photo from the Mye Stand website which is what I'm thinking of:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=128348)
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How long do you have the 3.6s and the processor for and where are you located?
Perhaps there's someone nearby with a 3.6 or 3.7 to try as a center speaker?
Here's a photo from the Mye Stand website which is what I'm thinking of:
3.6s are mine. I'm intrigued enough with the idea that I bought the Bryston processor. I'm in the SF Bay Area. For kicks, I tried using the DolbyPLII processing in my Onkyo 875 receiver instead of the Bryston, and it sounded terrible--just sucked the life out of the sound. So what Wendell said seems correct--there is something special about what the Bryston SP does, and the MMG-C as a center channel doesn't really cut it. My buddy who helped with the setup and listened with me over the weekend has some large Magnepans himself, so we have the potential of doing some interesting things. Obviously, we don't have a special stand for sideways placement, but we could jury rig something.
One thing I have to figure out is how best to integrate a sub since the recommended setting is to specify "no sub" to send the low frequencies to the mains. My sub does not have speaker level inputs or a high pass option.
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Maybe drop James Tanner a line on the sub?
Keep us posted on the Tri Center, that's a really interesting project you've got going there.
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The Tri Center isn't for everyone in terms of cost, space and sound. It does make stereo sound like it's broken or missing something but so will the QOL Signal Completion Stage, the Rupert Neve Portico 5014 Stereo Field Editor, or 5.2 Surround Sound.
The weird thing about the tri center, and what I think Steve is remembering, is that two channel stereo *doesn't work* after you've listened to it. Wendell told me about that before I listened, and, naturally, I didn't believe him. OK, so I listen, and then I switch back to two-channel stereo, and the image collapses almost to mono! It's the damnedest thing. Fortunately, the effect isn't permanent.
Otherwise, I agree, there's more than one way to skin a cat. And different approaches are going to suit different setups and budgets. The advantages of a center channel, whether in 5.1 or tri center, are well known. My guess is that what tri center ads to the three channel mix is delayed lateral first reflections from the on-walls, in what otherwise would be the dipole null (or close to it). But it's possible that something else is going on.
By the way, re the picture with the sideways center, Wendell tells me that a conventional full-sized panel works fine as a center channel. This is for conventional three-channel; I don't know whether it would work with tri center, since the Maggie centers are cardioids rather than dipoles.
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Hello Steve,
I just bought mini maggies.
Unfortunately, the countersunk screws which mount the oval metal plates to the satellites were left out in the original packing.
Could u please help ask Wendell what is the correct thread size and length? My dealer is also helping out but i hope i could get a reply here sooner as my satellites need proper support fast :)
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Okay, hopefully, I'll hear back by the time I get back from work.
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I just moved from S. California to Vancouver, Washington, and will no longer have a room big enough for my Tympani T-IV's, so may be selling them. They have been refurbished (including the voice coil wiring), are in perfect working order, and have the light grill cloth. If interested (there's nothing like them, except the T-IVa!), you can reach me at ericjerde@gmail.com.
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Mojoaudio,
Wendell is on a road trip at the moment so call Magnepan and ask for the service department.
bdp24,
You'll have more success if you stick an ad in the Classified Section.
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Right Steve, I'll do that. Mentioning it here was not in place of an ad, just an advance notice.
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I just moved from S. California to Vancouver, Washington, and will no longer have a room big enough for my Tympani T-IV's, so may be selling them. They have been refurbished (including the voice coil wiring), are in perfect working order, and have the light grill cloth. If interested (there's nothing like them, except the T-IVa!), you can reach me at ericjerde@gmail.com.
Don't do it, you won't get anything sounding like those again.
I have the tweeter panel separated and placed directly in front of the bass panels and that works for me.
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I have a question for Wendell, Steve...
In the various manufacturer literature on toe in for the three and twenty series I have seen somewhat conflicting literature.
Specifically, the manuals on the 20.7 show the panels aimed straight at the listener. This would effectively place the bass side and tweeter side exactly even if one was to take a string from listener to panel. But then in the latest on-site description of the speaker, there is a specific recommendation to make sure the bass side of the 20,7 panel needs to be closer than the tweeter side for optimal time alignment. This implies greater toe in for tweets in, and less toe in for tweets out.
My specific question is .... does this same recommendation now apply for the 3.7i speaker? The manual shows the tweeters aimed dead on at the listener (meaning the tweeter is about a half to full inch closer than the bass side). Is this correct, or does the same logic hold that the 3.7i woofers should be closer for proper time alignment?
How does Wendell recommend the 3.7i be aimed? How does he aim them at shows or in listening test?
Thanks in advance for passing this on. I could call Wendell myself, but thought it would be best to answer it publicly for everyone interested at once.
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Will do.
I asked him about measurements at the shows a few years back and he said he just sets things up by eye.
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Don't do it, you won't get anything sounding like those again.
I have the tweeter panel separated and placed directly in front of the bass panels and that works for me.
Since posting that, I got into the Planar Speaker Asylum, found the threads by Satie about replacing the T-IV mids with NEO 8's, separating the panels, wall-loading the bass panels, etc., and am going to give it a shot. If it doesn't work out, there is a local interested buyer who's waiting to hear from me!
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Drumroll, please.
And the answer is.......
I suggest that customers follow the instructions rather than placing too much on the drawings in the manuals. In all .7 models, the bass/midrange should be an inch or so closer to the listener than the tweeter. This means a much more radical toe-in if the tweeters are on the inside.
Keep in mind that all .7 models with tweeters on the inside or outside have different pluses and minuses (as explained on the website) compared to all previous Maggies.
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Thanks, that was fast!
That is indeed how I prefer them, so it is nice to eliminate that nagging fear that I am doing something wrong. The extra toe in with tweets in solidifies the image, tightens it and gives it more depth and body.
I tend to spend most of my listening time with tweets in, but do admit that I LOVE the tonality of the speaker with tweets out, at the expense of a more diffuse image.
My current set up is in a large room with the speakers at least 5 feet from the first side wall reflection, tweets about 6 feet from front wall and woofer side about 7 feet from FW. Today I am running it with a pair of DWMs and a sub, but it actually sounds great without the additional bass support.
Next purchase is a set of Mye stands....
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Drumroll, please.
And the answer is.......
I suggest that customers follow the instructions rather than placing too much on the drawings in the manuals. In all .7 models, the bass/midrange should be an inch or so closer to the listener than the tweeter. This means a much more radical toe-in if the tweeters are on the inside.
Keep in mind that all .7 models with tweeters on the inside or outside have different pluses and minuses (as explained on the website) compared to all previous Maggies.
And if you have the tweeters out, how would one get the bass/ midrange panel closer to the listener? Would that mean the speakers are facing straight forward without any toe in?
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With the tweets out, the bass panel starts out closer to the listener. They key now is to get it so it is only an inch or two closer. This involves toe in to reduce the closeness.
Put another way, if you start with the speakers facing you in proper location so that a string is equidistant from your head to the bass and tweeter side (this isn't a thought experiment, I strongly recommend Maggie owners actually do this), then if tweets are out, you adjust toe in so that bass is an inch or two closer as measured using the string. The end result is that tweets in will have more toe in than tweets out. But not a lot more.
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By the way, I should add that minor changes in toe in make a HUGE difference in frequency balance, especially in the upper midrange or mid high crossover range. Getting the mid/bass slightly closer (with tweets in) brings up the Mids if your speaker is well away from side walls. With side wall proximity, this may not be true though because of the reflection (the less toe in the more reflection off the SW).
I am a big fan of using a radio shack spl meter or phone app and a test track to measure frequency response. It is easy to measure the response straight on, then adjust it with an inch or two of toe in each way and see what it does to the upper Mids and lower treble. Of course it also affects the image depth, sound staging and such. In my room, "radical" toe in with tweets in gives smooth, yet slowly declining frequency response on the 3.7i. I also have an old pair of IIIa's and they need to be set up slightly different, mainly to tame the hyper aggressive upper Mids.
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Thanks for the response. Got to try this out one of these weekends.
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I have a hatchling Savannah Monitor set up in the living room so I haven't been using the 3.7s much but the tweeters in/bass angled closer 1" is how the 1.7s ended up just doing it by ear.
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It's finally time to thank the community for all the great deal of information about the magic world of Maggies. I think I absorbed every single post and learnt a big deal out of so many generous contributions. In my awkward 28x21' room I ended up with tweeter in (it was hard to convince myself about that) and 1" tweeter further from the listening position as well. In my never ending quest for the best placement I use the same tool of string and SPL empirical measures now at 100Hz (76db), 1kHz (80dB) and 9kHz (47dB). I found (even harder to digest) the Acoustic Resonators with filters and diffuser having a big impact in mitigating the resonance due to the windows on the front wall with typical fireplace hole in the middle and ubiquitous flat TV on top. Still a lot of work to do, but I am in love with the 1.7i (it was so hard for me to position them I almost went Emerald Physics, but now I am glad I did not - fact that Mr. Wendell does it successfully by the eye every time tells at length about all his technical knowledge). So at the end they are 8 feet apart measured from the inside bar, 7 feet away from the front wall (windows) and almost 9 from the sweet spot. Another huge improvement (bass response and imaging) was raising the speaker on a 1" maple base supported by 3 ball bearings each. Finally, they are tilted forward using two spacers for the top screw and a single one at the bottom. Riccardo
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I'm curious how the center ch. is derived for the 3 ch stereo demo's at shows.Is it simply the pro logic II center info sent from the Bryston processor to the center speaker?Is there any processing done to the left and right speakers?
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I have a hatchling Savannah Monitor set up in the living room so I haven't been using the 3.7s much but the tweeters in/bass angled closer 1" is how the 1.7s ended up just doing it by ear.
I do remember that you like your reptiles. Dogs! They drool and they rule. :thumb:
I have my 1.7s tweeters out right now, but looks like I have some experimenting to do this weekend.
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Yeah, and they shed hair all over the place but I guess that's part of the deal.
Details may or may not be released about the Bryston processor/Magnepan stuff.
Sorry, I tried.
Speaking of dogs and reptiles, time to take care of the zoo.
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After reading posts 285 through 295 I checked the toe in on my 3.7i speakers using the Bosch GLM 15 laser measure. Indispensable tool for positioning your speakers. Anyway, the center of the mid/bass panel was 2" farther away than the tweeter, which surprised me since they appeared toed in. I toed them in more by keeping the inner front footer of the Mye stand stationary while moving the outer front closer. Now the center of the mid/bass panel is 1" closer than the center of tweeter panel and it really does sound better. The soundstage seems more completely detached from the physical location of the speakers, and it deepened and widened some. Tonality seems more natural now for sure.
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Hello all,
I have a question about the screw holes where the stands attach to my 3.6's:
On one speaker, the holes have become loose (too much sliding, repositioning) so that the stand is not secured properly to the speaker any more.
Is there some kind of an easy fix for this loose fit problem?
Do I need to get aftermarket stands with additional screw holes? If so, any brand and model recommendations?
Thanks in advance,
Jeff
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Hi Jeff,
Easy fix - insert a wood toothpick into the hole and break off/cut at surface level. Re-thread original screw into hole.
Best fix - drill out hole (if necessary) and tap in metal insert. Then install appropriate length and tread machine screw or bolt.
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Thanks, Pryso.
I think I prefer fix #2. I was hoping that someone from Magnepan might reply, but it would probably be hard to beat that solution. Again, much appreciated.
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I have a question about Magnepan's new wall mounted panels. I presume they're dipoles like the standard Maggies, so how is it those models - the MC1 and the MMG-W can work against the wall and not have the out of phase back radiation not cancel the front radiation? I'd love to go for something like the MMG or .7, but understand those won't work close to the wall.
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Here you go:
The principle is to send the rear wave on a journey so that it comes back delayed at least 10 milliseconds. (Think billiard shots.) That means that it sounds best if kept away from corners.
The boundary effect of the wall means that the balance of the speaker must be adjusted for the reduction in out phase lower frequencies---which is the reason that floor-standing model can have elevated lower frequencies if mounted on a wall.
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I'm considering utilizing a pair of Magnepan MG1.7i in a home theater set up but concerned whether or not this room is too small. What is Magnepan's recommendation/thoughs? The ceiling is 8ft high. Looking to have at least a 5.1 system, perhaps even 7.1. Postive/negative responses welcomed.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154068)
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I'll pass it along but I'd say you'll be fine.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=154071)
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Thanks Steve. Additionally, I'm visualizing using the MMG-W for side/rear surrounds along with a CC5/DWM up front. Audio equipment by either NAD or ARCAM along with Emotiva power amps with a Rhythmic sub rounding out the bottom end. I would like to do a projection system but wondering if the height of the 1.7i will interfere with the projection. I think in this room, the 1.7i can only be placed a max of around 1.5ft~2ft from the front wall. Hmmm...your thoughts or rather Magenpan's thoughts...hehe :D
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Wendell is probably still sleeping off Thanksgiving but if you're only pulling the speakers 2' out from the wall I don't think you'll be too happy with the sound. You want 4 to 5 foot out into the room.
The DMW/CC5 combo should be real good, the MMG-Ws are okay but nothing wonderful.
MMGs on hinges would be a better choice (I have both so an A/B comparison is real easy).
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It would be nice if they had a model that would work about 3 feet from the wall, I got to try a pair of 1.7i, what a nice sounding speaker but to work their best they were out 6 feet into the room. (14x25x10)
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It would be nice if they had a model that would work about 3 feet from the wall, I got to try a pair of 1.7i, what a nice sounding speaker but to work their best they were out 6 feet into the room. (14x25x10)
In my experience, 3' is actually OK -- you get more depth at 5', but I could live with 3' if I had to (and have at times). However, on-wall mounting might be a better solution. As Wendell pointed out, you want to maximize the path length of the reflected back wave for the best possible imaging. Ideally, the first reflections reach your ears more than 10 ms after the direct sound. At 3' out, it's roughly 6 ms, which will compromise spatial reproduction a bit. With the wall mounted speakers, the back wave will skitter towards the side walls and reflect from those to your ears, so whether you get more or less of a delay will depend on where you have to mount the speakers, which will depend in turn on room geometry and screen size. If you figure out where you're sitting and go for a standard 60 degree stereo spread, you can figure out where the on-walls will go. Then pretend that there are mirrors on the side walls -- angle of incidence equals angle of reflectance -- and that will allow you to calculate the path length to your seat: sound travels at roughly 1000 ft/sec so each foot will give you about a millisecond of delay.
You can ameliorate the effect of the 3' distance by putting QRD diffusors at the first reflection points on the front wall. If you get a motorized screen, they could live behind the screen -- they won't work obviously when the screen is down (unless you get an acoustically transparent one), but that won't be much of a compromise when you're watching movies or TV, it matters more for music.
You won't be able to see over the tops of the speakers nohow! If only one or two people are going to be watching, you can put the speakers to either side of the screen (still 3' in front of the wall of course) and still get a nice size screen with a field of view that meets SMPTE specs. I did it with a 114" screen and a pair of MMG's and it worked fine -- floor standing Maggies can be within 2' of a sidewall or even closer if you equalize down the bass a few dB. OTOH, if you're going to invite the neighborhood and have theater-style seating, you'll need to space the speakers further apart (> 60 degrees) and you'll need a center channel, which you need for theater-style seating anyway to anchor the dialogue.
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I'm one of the minority who think the whole "maggies have to be out in the middle of the room" is BS. It's a "nice to have" not "must have". Same with "Maggie's need hundreds of watts of power". Again - nice to have not must.
If you do have them close to a rear wall use some absorption behind to address excessive back slap of sound messing up sound coming from front. Same holds true for other dipole planars. I've purposefully used sloppy language to describe this.
I've been a bit disappointed with mmg-w and CC's. They just don't extend down enough in the low frequency even for surround duty and much less for CC duty. Yes - you get the wrap around dipole affect which is nice. But because the LF is so lacking the receiver / pre pro sets the crossover point too high (like 200hz) and then your sub starts trying to play it back (bad). You end up having to manually set the crossover point on the surround lower to compensate or else you get this muffled dialogue coming out of the sub.
So I would echo SF that for side surrounds use MMGs full size on diy hinges. This what I do though it takes some work and they are big. For rear surrounds I have compromised with MMG-Ws. Still a lot of material that's not native 7.1. Its more for fill in effect so I dont sweat it as much.
The Maggie CCs have been the biggest disappointment. Adding the DMW is kludgy. And adding the cost of that ANd CC5 gets expensive. If you have the space I'd recommend the MMG on its side. I tired that once (before using it for side surround) and it was the best by far. Even if you only use one it's still only $600 a pair. You could probably resell the other to someone else who wants to do the same.
Continuing with my CC rant - Maggie's are so revealing that I'm finding often on programs the CC sound is so badly recorded that I think my CC is broken. Distorted / honky / etc. Sometimes even within the same blu ray movie - good / bad / good. What I've come to realize is that it's not the speaker but the recording. The MMG is in some ways "warmer" than the QR based CC5 so it's actually more forgiving. I would look at placing absorption behind it though as it's not practical often to place a CC too far out.
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I agree with jarcher.
I've owned maggie 3 series a couple times. They sound great but who has a mansion or a wife that will put them way out in a room?! Put close to wall, enjoy and slide out into room for listening session if need be.
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I agree with jarcher.
I've owned maggie 3 series a couple times. They sound great but who has a mansion or a wife that will put them way out in a room?! Put close to wall, enjoy and slide out into room for listening session if need be.
The wife loved the sound, but the first thing out of her lovely mouth, you aren't going to leave them there are you :duh:
But they really sounded great out in the open, and I didn't have any WAF friendly diffusors to try them pushed back towards the wall. But liked the speakers.
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When I owned 1.6's I tried them anywhere from 2-5 feet into my room. I settled on 40 inches as ideal for me.
I used a Crown XLS 1500 and really enjoyed that pairing. Wish I had owned the Audio Refinement amp I do now.
I may eventually try MMG's again once my cats grow up more.
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Good answer from mr_bill.
That partially covers Wendell's question which is do they look too big?
If looks aren't the issue, the question is are they too big acoustically? If that's the question, I'd say not at all and I would also say to give Wendell a buzz as he's been at this a long time and can set these things up in his sleep.
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I think it becomes a question of where do they sound good VS where do they sound best?
But there are alternatives for those who must place Maggies somewhat close to the front wall. Move them out for critical listening as mr_bill suggested, otherwise they should be fine closer to the wall for background/casual listening. Also, one can experiment with dispersion devices on the wall directly behind the speaker to minimize directly reflected sound.
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I think it becomes a question of where do the sound good VS where do they sound best?
But there are alternatives for those who must place Maggies somewhat close to the front wall. Move them out for critical listening as mr_bill suggested, otherwise they should be fine closer to the wall for background/casual listening. Also, one can experiment with dispersion devices on the wall directly behind the speaker to minimize directly reflected sound.
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Ill go with that...sounds good to me :thumb:
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My question for Magnepan is if they plan on making more of a presence at this year's Axpona show?
With the demise of so many local audio stores, it is essential that people get a chance to hear speakers. The new trend is for tens of thousands of people to hear hundreds of brands at organized shows such as Axpona in Chicago. For the last two years, the only Maggie showing was as the speaker to demo a DAC (it sounded great both years, but was less than ideal in terms of room size).
It would be great if Magnepan could set up a room or two and show what their various models are capable of. Personally I would love to hear the state of the art demo of the 20.7, or the three way system, or whatever new they have cooking.
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With the demise of so many local audio stores, it is essential that people get a chance to hear speakers.
With the demise of so many local audio stores, it is essential that people support the last good ones left, particularly any news ones that open up. If you want something to remain or thrive, you need to support it financially. Otherwise well all need to stop talking about "the demise of the B&M store"........
Magnepan will do in-home demo's shipped direct to you up to 1.7 I believe if your a certain distance away from a B&M dealer - they are still doing that aren't they Steve?
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Here you go:
In the past, we were participating at CES and the Newport show. With a small staff, that was too demanding and resulted in neglect in too many other areas. We will only be showing at the LA Show in June.
Our dealer in Chicago has 4 stores and has most all of our models on display from MMGs to 20.7s. A crowded demo in a hotel room is not the equal to a private audition with your music, sitting in the sweet spot and listening at your leisure.
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It looks like they still have that 1.7 home demo going.
I've had mine for a few years now in the upstairs system and with the addition of a big SVS tube sub there's no upgrade itch to scratch.
http://www.magnepan.com/model_MG_16
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Thanks for the answer. Every marketing department needs to make make decisions in a world of limited resources and I respect their decision. I got an invite to their three way demo at a local store, but was out of town that day and sadly missed it.
I may even try to make it out to the California show this year.
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By the way Steve, I share your enthusiasm for the 1.7. I heard them at a friend's house in a very small room and the soundstage was fantastic. Seemless.
I have 3.7i's with two subs in a large room, and a secondary pair of old 3a's set up Limage-style in a separate medium sized room with no subs.
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Having owned many Maggies since 1988, I have moved on to Ambience Reference Series out of Australia. You can order direct from the factory (much better pricing) and pay air shipping. Sometimes they come up used at a deep discount. Crazy efficient and the most versatile speaker providing excellent sound in challenging rooms. If you have a tube system, consider them. (I have no affiliation).
REFERENCE SERIES
Both our Reference models incorporate the Ambience ribbon driver, which has proven to be extremely reliable and robust.
These ribbon hybrid loudspeakers boast an extremely high efficiency specification of 96dB, which use extremely powerful neodymium “rare earth” magnets.
The magnets form the main integral part of the engine that creates the sound.
They produce five times the acoustical output energy as our standard series with the same rated amplifier input power.
To match the high efficiency levels of the ribbon driver, we’ve had to employ double woofer arrangement in the bass section to create the low frequency output.
Marrying these two varying technologies together, a complex 18dB/Octave crossover has been specially designed utilizing “Hovland” capacitors from the U.S. These capacitors are renowned for being the finest available in the world.
The crossover point is performed at a frequency less sensitive to the human ear; thus cannot be distinguished.
Internal cabling is also sourced from the U.S company “Analysis Plus”; this company is rapidly gaining reputation for being one of the finest cable manufacturers within the industry.
The resulting combination is a speaker system that has incredible DYNAMICS, REALISM and coupled with CLARITY that only Ribbon or Electrostatic loudspeakers can produce.
The soundstage is huge, and being of di-polar type design, create a three dimensional sound field.
Because of their gradual ramp downward tendency at the upper most frequencies, listening is very smooth and relaxing, even when operated at high volume levels!
GRAND REFERENCE
Sensitivity. 96dB @ 1metre, 2.83volts input
Power handling 150 watts RMS (long term)
Crimped metal ribbon type
Twin 180mm SEAS woofers, custom made
specifically for Ambience loudspeakers
Custom Sub Bass Driver
Rear ported bass reflex design
Nominal impedance 4 ohms
Crossover 3rd order @ 420Hz
Minimum amplifier power 10 watts RMS/channel
Ideal Amplifier power 30-70 watts RMS/channel
1840mm tall x 480mm wide x 360 deep
Weight : 68 kg / each
REFERENCE 1600
Sensitivity : 96dB @ 1metre, 2.83volts input
Power handling : 150 watts RMS (long term)
Crimped metal ribbon type
Twin 180mm SEAS woofers, custom made
specifically for Ambience loudspeakers
Rear ported bass reflex design
Nominal impedance : 4 ohms
Crossover 3rd order @ 420Hz
Minimum amplifier power 10 watts RMS/channel
Ideal Amplifier power 30-70 watts RMS/channel.
1605mm tall x 228mm wide x 432 deep
Weight : 32.5 kg / each
GRAND REFERENCE 1800
STANDARD 1800
STANDARD SERIES
All our models incorporate the Ambience ribbon driver, which has proven to be extremely reliable and robust.
The Bass driver has been specifically developed by SEAS of Norway to match the Ambience Ribbon driver, with a useful lower frequency response well below 30Hz.
A complex third order crossover is fitted to all models.
The crossover point is performed at a frequency less sensitive to the human ear; thus cannot be distinguished.
The resulting combination is a speaker system that has incredible REALISM, coupled with CLARITY that only Ribbon or Electrostatic speakers can produce.
The soundstage is extremely large, and being of di-polar type design, they also have great depth.
Because of their gradual ramp downward tendency at the upper most frequencies, listening is very smooth and relaxing, even when operated at high volume levels!
The 1800 model creates a huge “soundstage” and performs at their best in larger rooms.
Special edition versions are available based on existing models.
Their high efficiency makes them suitable for amplifiers with very low output power ratings of 10 watts, to a maximum continuous power output rating of 150 watt RMS /channel. With large amplifiers, extreme sound pressure levels are achievable.
The Reference 1600 model have upward firing bass drivers, which gives them excellent ability to perform under any situation, irrespective of room influences and positioning. A loudspeaker that is very versatile.
Warmth, Encompassing, Surrounding. Hence the name - AMBIENCE!
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Is there a question for the Magnepan factory in there?
Maybe do a write up with some pictures and what not in a separate thread.
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I'm one of the minority who think the whole "maggies have to be out in the middle of the room" is BS. It's a "nice to have" not "must have". Same with "Maggie's need hundreds of watts of power". Again - nice to have not must.
If you do have them close to a rear wall use some absorption behind to address excessive back slap of sound messing up sound coming from front. Same holds true for other dipole planars. I've purposefully used sloppy language to describe this.
I've been a bit disappointed with mmg-w and CC's. They just don't extend down enough in the low frequency even for surround duty and much less for CC duty. Yes - you get the wrap around dipole affect which is nice. But because the LF is so lacking the receiver / pre pro sets the crossover point too high (like 200hz) and then your sub starts trying to play it back (bad). You end up having to manually set the crossover point on the surround lower to compensate or else you get this muffled dialogue coming out of the sub.
So I would echo SF that for side surrounds use MMGs full size on diy hinges. This what I do though it takes some work and they are big. For rear surrounds I have compromised with MMG-Ws. Still a lot of material that's not native 7.1. Its more for fill in effect so I dont sweat it as much.
The Maggie CCs have been the biggest disappointment. Adding the DMW is kludgy. And adding the cost of that ANd CC5 gets expensive. If you have the space I'd recommend the MMG on its side. I tired that once (before using it for side surround) and it was the best by far. Even if you only use one it's still only $600 a pair. You could probably resell the other to someone else who wants to do the same.
Continuing with my CC rant - Maggie's are so revealing that I'm finding often on programs the CC sound is so badly recorded that I think my CC is broken. Distorted / honky / etc. Sometimes even within the same blu ray movie - good / bad / good. What I've come to realize is that it's not the speaker but the recording. The MMG is in some ways "warmer" than the QR based CC5 so it's actually more forgiving. I would look at placing absorption behind it though as it's not practical often to place a CC too far out.
I rarely comment on forums, but reliable, quality information is hard to find. Kudos to this guy for hitting the mark 100% with my personal experiences. On both the placement issue and center channel, I totally agree.
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I have a legitimate question for Wendell...
Is it advisable to build a tri-center system using NOT identical speakers, but instead a set of 3.7i's on the outside and a IIIa as the center speaker?
IOW, would the speakers be able to blend, providing the tri-center magic, or would they likely clash?
I would have asked him this at one of his local tri center demo's, but was out of town the day he came to Chicago.
Any insight on the pros and cons of such an approach would be appreciated along with his most recent insights (if any) on the electronics necessary to pull this off.
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Wendell asked you to please call him, he's not 100% sure what you're after so I think he will need some clarification and will be able to help you out that way.
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Ok thanks.
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I also have been intrigued by the tri-center approach and spoke with Wendell on how to set it up. He emphasized that it is critical to use a Bryston processor to make the "magic" happen, so I bought one (a 1.7 upgraded to 2.0) to play with. I learned a lot and had a great deal of fun playing around with Tri-center, but the physical layout ended up not working so well for me. I was thinking that there may be a group of forum members who want to see what the fuss is about, but don't want to commit to a somewhat expensive processor, so I thought about setting up a "chain" for forum members to trial the processor by "buying" it, then passing it on to the next buyer (no profit-taking allowed), presumably till it makes it to a forum member for whom Tri-center is a home run. What do you all think?
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Sounds like a great idea, alas, I have no way of doing three-channel in my current setup because I have a projection screen in a small room. Which does bother me because having heard Wendell's demonstrations of both Tri-Center and conventional three channel with the Bryston processor, it's hard to go back to the phantom image of stereo. If I didn't have the screen or had a larger room and could put an acoustically transparent screen in front for movies, I'd go three channel in a second.
Maybe someday, with a short throw projector . . .
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That would be a very expensive proposition for me as I'd need another VTL amp and another 3.7 plus the Bryston piece.
I have thought about it, though.
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A crowded demo in a hotel room is not the equal to a private audition with your music, sitting in the sweet spot and listening at your leisure.
Truer words were never spoken. Meanwhile I have a question: which models can still be sent back to the factory for refurbishment? I can't afford new ones and am leery of the complexity of Maggies when it comes to repair and maintenance. But the prospect of having the experts attend to them is enticing indeed. Thx
PS: I'm an architect and I'd like to design better stands/feet for the 1.7 :)
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Truer words were never spoken. Meanwhile I have a question: which models can still be sent back to the factory for refurbishment? I can't afford new ones and am leery of the complexity of Maggies when it comes to repair and maintenance. But the prospect of having the experts attend to them is enticing indeed. Thx
PS: I'm an architect and I'd like to design better stands/feet for the 1.7 :)
As far as I know, they can still repair every model, or almost every one. They have custom jigs and stretching tables, a dedicated paint booth, all the old specs. The repair operation is like a little factory within the factory.
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That would be a very expensive proposition for me as I'd need another VTL amp and another 3.7 plus the Bryston piece.
I have thought about it, though.
And how would you get a single 3.7?
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Find somebody else doing the same thing and split a pair, same with the amp.
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One thing I learned was that the Tri-center approach seems to work best for me with three of the same speakers. I haven't been as happy when a Magnepan center channel is part of the mix. I wonder if Magnepan would consider starting to sell individual speakers (or sets of 3)?
Steve, at one point I believe you had a 3.7 on its side as a center channel. When I tried it (albeit without appropriate stands), I had some issues with dispersion, and it didn't sound as good as with the center speaker upright.
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Find somebody else doing the same thing and split a pair, same with the amp.
You want to saw the amp in half? :-)
I wonder how feasible it is to do that (find someone doing the same thing, that is).
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You want to saw the amp in half? :-)
I wonder how feasible it is to do that (find someone doing the same thing, that is).
Dual mono amps, ya big silly.
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Dual mono amps, ya big silly.
Heh, yes, I got that. :-)
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Does anyone know what size the shipping box for Magnepan 3.7i 's are. Having trouble getting the exact dimensions so I'll know what type of vehicle to move a pair in. Will. Honda CR-V do the job?
Thanks
John
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73 x 27 x 6".
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Don't be modest, you knew that off the top of your head. :-)
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I'm going to put money down soon on a pair of Magnepan 20.7
I want to know the current wait times, from order to delivery, for 20.7?
Actually more to know if I have to delay ordering, rather than order early.
Since if the current delivery is in less than a month, I would need to wait to order.
Were if they take six weeks, or eight, no problem I am in no rush. But I could order sooner.
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From Wendell, no special delays.
From me, good choice!
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Amen to that!
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So with no answer, that means no one is going to say what the current wait time is? Or can I call Magnepan the day I plan to order, and find out what the current length ot time from order to shipping?.
I am not asking for any 'delay'. I am asking what is the current wait time.
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My 3.7s took 14, maybe 20 days from order to my living room.
Place the order with your dealer and they'll be there before you know it.
Post a review, please.
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. I bought a pair of Mini Maggie two years back in Malaysia and I recently moved to India. When I thought I attained Audio Nirvana, a capacitor in one speaker blew, tearing the grill! I could see only the name Richey A14C on the blown piece. I request you to let me know the specs of this capacitor and also where I could get it.
Also, please let me know if anybody has he schematic for the crossover. Thanks very much,
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Why use the Jumpers on 1.7i ? what would happen if I take them out ?
2. what size wire awg to use as jumper cables , my present speaker wires are dueland 16 awg and IC are 16 & 20 awgs
could I just use piece of dueland wire as jumper cables ?
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ganeshvm,
The suggestion is to contact Magnepan directly (if you haven't already done so).
A_shah,
I can answer that one.
I think half your speaker won't work, people who replace the jumpers normally use a section the speaker wire that they're running.
I've tried it and couldn't tell the difference but maybe my ears aren't that discerning.
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ganeshvm,
The suggestion is to contact Magnepan directly (if you haven't already done so).
A_shah,
I can answer that one.
I think half your speaker won't work, people who replace the jumpers normally use a section the speaker wire that they're running.
I've tried it and couldn't tell the difference but maybe my ears aren't that discerning.
Ok
thanks ! just wanted to make sure , That is exactly what I have done. yes it does make an audible difference to my ears !
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Are there any north east coast dates scheduled for the 30.7 tour
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From Wendell AKA Road Dog:
I completed the Western half of North America and working my way east. We are urging customers to RSVP their dealers to be notified when we make a schedule to come to their area.
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I got further word, it looks like early autumn for the East Coast.
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Thanks Steve will bo on the lookout.
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I also have been intrigued by the tri-center approach and spoke with Wendell on how to set it up. He emphasized that it is critical to use a Bryston processor to make the "magic" happen, so I bought one (a 1.7 upgraded to 2.0) to play with. ...
Did Wendell give you any specific PLII settings to make the tri-channel magic happen ???
E.G.
- Center Width Control = ???
- Dimension Control = ???
- Panorama Mode = ???
TIA
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Wendell says to give him a call on Tuesday, 9/4/18.
It sounds like the answer will be too detailed to boil down to a few sentences.
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(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=191932)
C-900u Preamp
M-900u Amplifier
Totaldac Twelve 3 box
Bel Canto e.One Stream
Martin Logan 15a
(Pair) Rel Carbon Subs
Shunyata Triton V3
HD Plex 200W Linear Power Supply
HS-453DX-8G-US QNAP NAS
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My last post in this thread over a year ago. I have owned my Magnepan 20.7 almost a year! Anniversary on March 23.
I am not sure how much ddark65 Martin Logans would be worth trading them in for 20.7 or 30.7 Magnepan.. Depends on the dealer... :thumb:
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my bad lol wrong section , I just bought the logans
No problem.. enjoy! :thumb:
They are kind of cousins...
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Dear Magnepan,
I can see through my speakers, is this normal? :D
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I am afraid to email this directly to Magnepan (because I'm putting myself in serious danger of buying something)... I'm looking for some advice.
My listening space is at one end of a 13 x 26 ft (4 x 8m) room with 7-foot (2.1m) ceilings. The room is an open loft-like space. My set up is at one end of the room on the long wall and occupies a little less than half of the room, while the other half of the room is the kitchen. Wood floors and ceilings, no room treatments except the couch and a little area rug in front of it.
I'm looking at the .7 as compared to the 1.7i. In my room I could get them 3 feet off the front wall (and more when I'm home alone), so no problems there. But I'll probably only be 6 to 7 feet (~2m) away on the couch. My reading indicates that might be a little close for Maggies. So I have to main lines of inquiry I'd like some help with, if anyone knows.
1. Bass/Size: Are the .7 too small to give me the bass they're specced for in this room? I'm afraid the space goes beyond "medium" into "large" when the air volume of the adjoining kitchen is accounted for. My current speakers roll off pretty steeply at starting at 60Hz and are all done below 40. If I can match that kind of response I'll be satisfied.
2. Listening distance: Is my listening position too close for me to appreciate what Magnepans have to offer?
.7 vs 1.7i: as a current single driver speaker guy, my gut tells me that, all other things being equal, the 2-way .7 would need less distance to the listener to feel as coherent as the 3-way 1.7i. But then I've also heard people say that the 1.7i's midrange and (super)tweeter are actually closer together than the drivers in the .7, so the bigger speaker would be preferable for near-er field listening.
Does anyone know what's really up? Is it still a case of "get the biggest Maggies you can afford"? Before you ask, a sub is currently not on the table. I do not want to jeopardize the peace I currently enjoy with my neighbours.
Thanks for any help.
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General comments to McNubbins:
My listening space is similar, but 8 ft ceilings. My width is only 11ft 8 in. With my Magnepan 20.7 speakers 42" to 53" (angled a lot) from back wall, and sides 18" (closest) to side walls. Tweeter 'in' (vs outside) I sit about eight feet away. (But I wish I could sit closer some times.) I also have the kitchen as the back part of the room, and a hallway to the front door, with a space between with two closets, one facing hall, one facing kitchen sticking into the space behind me. but the basics of it is the space front to back is about 26 feet.
I also care about not disturbing my neighbors, and have a variety of ways of attenuating the bottom end of my big Maggies. (However still some Rock music which is just not really playable on them due to 'too much bass' (so those I use earphones, but since I enjoy all sorts of music, particularly small Jazz and Classical groups, usually not a problem)
One point to remember about Maggies is the bass does not travel through walls nearly as much as box/cone speakers bass does. So you get a 'head start' on not annoying the neighbors with Magnepans!
As far as how big a speaker you need to fill the space... You can see I am of the opposite camp. (Which is how huge a speaker can I cram into my 'little' room) So I do not have that part of the answer. I used to have 3.6 Maggies in the same spot as my current 20.7 and they were just about perfect. as far as bass and the room went. The 20.7 have much better midrange clarity than the 3.6 did, but more bass than I really can use. (with some bass heavy Rock.. PS ALL Rock from the 60's 70's bass is no problem. Only into the 80s. like Madonna and forward does bass become BIG, and a problem. the perfect bass for my 20.7 is Depeche Mode as an example of bass i can play and not worry about getting an eviction notice. I usually am playing Rock at around 67dB "C" weighted at listening position using a Radio Shack SPL meter. (Having meter is great so I know 'how loud am I really) Been here 12 years, no one has ever complained about my playing music (and being in an 'over 55' complex plenty of folks complain about ANYTHING...)
I would say if you can afford the 1.7i got for them. Remember they will want a powerful amp. Not just to play loud, but to play well at moderate levels. But I am all for get the biggest you can crowd.
Good luck.
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I'm with Elizabeth -- I like the big ones!
Otherwise -- you'll get better imaging a few feet back, because of the lateral displacement of the drivers, but I don't think 6-7 feet is an impossible distance. As you move closer you'll get a major bass rise but I don't think you're quite that close. I listen to my Tympanis at something like 6' and it works well.
The speakers do like to be at least 5' off the wall.
I'm in a small room, 13' x 14' with 13' of usable area, so my situation isn't all that dissimilar to yours. The solution is to pull the speakers out 5' or so and listen near the rear wall. That means some minimal acoustical treatment, broadband absorption behind your listening position. Corning 703 2" fiberglass should do the trick, 4' x 4', two or better yet three pieces thick (4"-6" total) so you get bass absorption. Or you can buy a ready made acoustical panel from GIK, et al.
If you're close to a side wall, you may notice the asymmetry as the sound will tend to wrap around the side wall but be open on the other side. If you can, move the speakers further out from the side wall, otherwise, again, some treatment may help.
i'd be concerned about the reverberation from the hard kitchen. Fortunately, dipoles don't radiate all that much to the side.
Re size, yeah, as I said, I'd be inclined to go to a larger Maggie. That might not be true if the speakers were on the short wall but on the long wall, they won't get bass reinforcement from two proximate side walls. And in general, the bigger the Maggie, the better the performance, as you'd expect -- louder, deeper, lower distortion for the same playback level.
I don't think the supertweeter is an advantage specifically for listening up close but it is an advantage in general.
That said, the .7's should be acoustically smaller than the 1.7's and you're sitting up close, so they may image better, laterally, anyway. But I think Wendell will be better able to respond to this on the basis of experience with the various models! Even if it does mean you'll end up buying 30.7's.
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Thanks for all the tips and information, Elizabeth and Josh.
It's encouraging to hear others' Magnepan success stories of setups in rooms that don't seem ideally matched to the size of speaker being used.
I think you're both probably probably right that bigger is better. I've been bitten before in some of my other hobbies by getting gear that's just "good enough". So it is probably better to wait until I can fit a 1.7i into my budget rather than getting something that might be too small. And if I get the 1.7i, it's tall enough that I might just be able to walk around the room a bit and have my ears still in vertical window of good treble dispersion (The VWGTD)!
It's also good to be reminded that room treatments can help mitigate some positioning compromises.
I'm still curious if anyone has anything further to add--I've learned a lot going back through threads like this one, and it may be helpful to someone else in the future. Thanks again.
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Even though you're really close to those speakers the small guys might get dwarfed by that room.
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I have a question based on the following statement taken from the Magnepan FAQ page... (https://www.magnepan.com/faq#big/)
“If we sold the portion of the speaker from 200 Hz up, you could put it in the average apartment. Yes, it would be tall, but very narrow.”
Magnepan says they “are not fans of hybrid speakers” BUT the fact is many of their customers use conventional subs with their Maggies. So assuming there was enough demand, would Magnepan be willing offer “the pole portion of the speaker from 200 Hz up”?
Subs are much smaller than large panels. And there are some subs (OB servo) that are probably every bit as good as large panels when it comes to extension, impact and high definition bass.
I hope Magnepan is open minded enough to at least explore this avenue.
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Hey Magnepan! How about making the LRS an Active Loudspeaker.
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Wind Chaser,
Here's your answer (kinda):
On a theoretical basis, mixing a line-source, dipole driver with a monopole woofer doesn't work. However, a dynamic dipole (open baffle) woofer would work, but there are very few of them on the market.
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Hi Steve,
The question I was hoping Magnepan would answer is... would they (Magnepan) be willing offer just “the pole portion of the speaker from 200 Hz up”?
If so, assuming the poles were sensibly priced, I bet the demand would be prolific. If they offered just the pole portion of the speaker from 200 Hz up, it would allow people the flexibility to choose their own bass solution. As it is, early results of a quick poll indicate the vast majority of Maggie owners are using subs with their Magneplanars. (https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53808&view=viewpoll/) This would suggest most people want more bass then the panels can produce. So why not offer the poles which although very tall, would be least space taking Maggie that could fit in almost any room?
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I would never have a sub with a pair of Maggies. :thumb:
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I know that your question was not really answered.
I took that to be a "no" along with an oblique hint.
They're always fooling around with something at the factory so we'll see what comes next.
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I would never have a sub with a pair of Maggies. :thumb:
Have you ever tried or heard a sub / subs with them?
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Tall poles are a lot more appealing than large panels. They could be moved in and out of position with relative ease / nominal effort. Mated with dynamic OB servo subs would open up tremendous possibilities in smaller rooms where large panels are not an option.
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Why would I want to do THAT? :lol:
I live in an 'over 55' complex. That means NO NOISE. Half the reason Magnepans are great here is the fact the damn thumping does NOT go through walls. Gee ... what an idea.. buy a sub so it DOES...
Plus I hate that throbbing sheet. :thumb:
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Half the reason Magnepans are great here is the fact the damn thumping does NOT go through walls. Gee ... what an idea.. buy a sub so it DOES...
NOT AT ALL with OB subs... :wink:
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I know that your question was not really answered.
I took that to be a "no" along with an oblique hint.
Steve,
I'm not sure I understand, are you saying Magnepan's response to my question was an indirect evasive "no" based on a "theoretical basis"?
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If you watch what they do they'll start off with one model change and then a whole slew of them follow (the 3.7s gave rise to the 1.7 and the 20.7 and then came the "i" designation and down to the .7 and finally the new LSR speakers).
They just came out with the 30.7 which is a different direction than just two panels. Super expensive statement speakers for the jet set crowd.
Their history suggests that they'll use that as a model for a new family of products which may include what you're after although they're really against conventional cone woofers and any sort of built-in amplification. I know for a fact that ain't never gonna happen even if ain't ain't in the dictionary.
They also seem to really like selling packages with the DMV being the exception.
My educated guess is that your credit card will take a beating sooner or later.
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McNubbins,
I am a Maggie owner (1.6's and original MMG's). I have a friend that has the 1.7's in a small room, maybe 10x12 if that. He uses his in a near field setup, sitting maybe 5' from the speakers. He also uses dual Rhythmik subs and room treatments. His system sounds awesome.
When I first saw the set up, I thought that there was no way it was going to sound good but it does. Of course he has electronics that sound great at lower volumes but he does turn them up and rock.
By the way, subs can integrate well with Maggies. You need a good non ported sub to fill in the bottom end. I run dual Martin Logan subs with mine and it is a seamless transition.
Go for the 1.7i's and don't look back.
Larry
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I am afraid to email this directly to Magnepan (because I'm putting myself in serious danger of buying something)... I'm looking for some advice.
My listening space is at one end of a 13 x 26 ft (4 x 8m) room with 7-foot (2.1m) ceilings. The room is an open loft-like space. My set up is at one end of the room on the long wall and occupies a little less than half of the room, while the other half of the room is the kitchen. Wood floors and ceilings, no room treatments except the couch and a little area rug in front of it.
I'm looking at the .7 as compared to the 1.7i. In my room I could get them 3 feet off the front wall (and more when I'm home alone), so no problems there. But I'll probably only be 6 to 7 feet (~2m) away on the couch. My reading indicates that might be a little close for Maggies. So I have to main lines of inquiry I'd like some help with, if anyone knows.
1. Bass/Size: Are the .7 too small to give me the bass they're specced for in this room? I'm afraid the space goes beyond "medium" into "large" when the air volume of the adjoining kitchen is accounted for. My current speakers roll off pretty steeply at starting at 60Hz and are all done below 40. If I can match that kind of response I'll be satisfied.
2. Listening distance: Is my listening position too close for me to appreciate what Magnepans have to offer?
.7 vs 1.7i: as a current single driver speaker guy, my gut tells me that, all other things being equal, the 2-way .7 would need less distance to the listener to feel as coherent as the 3-way 1.7i. But then I've also heard people say that the 1.7i's midrange and (super)tweeter are actually closer together than the drivers in the .7, so the bigger speaker would be preferable for near-er field listening.
Does anyone know what's really up? Is it still a case of "get the biggest Maggies you can afford"? Before you ask, a sub is currently not on the table. I do not want to jeopardize the peace I currently enjoy with my neighbours.
Thanks for any help.
Did you decide what to go with? Did you get them yet?
I’m have a similar situation/layout, except I have a cathedral ceiling, and have the same question; .7 vs 1.7i?
One of my concerns is only being able to set the speakers 2.5 to 3ft max from the walk behind them, with a 60” plasma TV between. That puts the main listening position 7 - 7.5ft from the speakers.
In my case I plan to use my current sealed sub (Power Sound Audio Triax).
My concern with the 1.7i is how visually big it will be in my setup. Visually, the .7 would be better, and easier to move out of the way when I want to use my current Soundfield Audio Monitor 1 speakers. But, in terms of performance, would the .7 be too small for the room?
Here’s a pic of the listening area. It’s open to the right to the dining area (about the same size as the listening area. The SVS sub in the left corner has been replaced with my current sealed sub.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=196016)
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Hi, Saturn. No, I haven't gotten anything yet. Having said that, I have decided on the 1.7i based on everyone's advice. I'm afraid of having too little speaker for my space.
I figure the .7 isn't realistically any smaller than a 1.7i physically. If the 1.7i is too big for your decor, I feel like the .7 would be too. I was just trying to get away with spending less money. :) Maybe in the off-white things would seem a little smaller?
More experienced members can probably tell you if your sub will adequately compensate for a smaller Maggie, if you go in that direction.
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Hi, Saturn. No, I haven't gotten anything yet. Having said that, I have decided on the 1.7i based on everyone's advice. I'm afraid of having too little speaker for my space.
I figure the .7 isn't realistically any smaller than a 1.7i physically. If the 1.7i is too big for your decor, I feel like the .7 would be too. I was just trying to get away with spending less money. :) Maybe in the off-white things would seem a little smaller?
More experienced members can probably tell you if your sub will adequately compensate for a smaller Maggie, if you go in that direction.
Thanks. :)
I forgot mention it in my post, but saving money would be a really good thing too! :D
That said, like you, I’m also concerned about going too small, performance wise, for the space.
There’s also the issue of how well Maggies would preform in my setup/room given placement restrictions. Does Magnepan offer a trial period on the .7 and 1.7i? The closet dealer is over 175 miles away, so it may end up a new pair of Maggies aren’t even an option for me.
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I suggest you call Wendell Diller at Magnepan and explain your concerns. They have a lot of experience with Maggies in different sized rooms, much more than any of us do, and Wendell will tell you what model is likely to work.
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I suggest you call Wendell Diller at Magnepan and explain your concerns. They have a lot of experience with Maggies in different sized rooms, much more than any of us do, and Wendell will tell you what model is likely to work.
Yep, plan to do that as well. :)
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Btw, I posted this in another thread after hearing the .7 in another AC member’s home. His room/listening area is bigger than mine, allowing the Maggies more space behind them, and a bit more “live” than my room.
“Big thanks to Jay for letting me visit to hear the .7! I really enjoyed it....even the non audio discussions. :D
Jay has them in a very nice, simple setup; a Mac Mini (optimized for playing music) connected to a DAC which was connected to the amp (class D I believe, 400 wpc). Having recently completely disassembled my combo audio/HT system ( I swear there must have been 5 miles of cables!), I can really appreciate the appeal of keeping it simple!
Overall, the sound from them was very clear and detailed. Well recorded voices and piano stood out to me as absolutely superb! Music with small assembles sounded superb as well. I can see wanting a pair just for these qualities. Performance with large orchestral works was mixed, especially with the entire orchestra going full tilt. Perhaps a bigger panel would be better suited for this.
The .7’s detail/high resolution is a double edged sword. Great recordings sound great, stunning even. Sub par recordings, not so great. They certainly aren’t very forgiving speakers. Bad recordings have nowhere to hide.
Perhaps they are too small for the room they are in (Jay mentioned earlier he intended to use them in a smaller room), but they were pretty bass shy. Keep in mind I’m use to a system that includes a large sub with 3 15” drivers (sealed cabinet, 4000 watt amp) that can provide as much bass (extension down to 8hz) as I’d ever want, and most any music recording would call for. A sub would be a must for me with the .7. Of course, what bass was there was very clean.
As Maggie’s are known for, there’s a complete absence of any “box sound”. That lack of a box sound can be very addictive. I remember back in the early 80s when I was looking to replace pair of SMGs (wanted better bass/output capabilities), I found it difficult to find a box speaker that’s didn’t sound like a box. I ended up replacing them with the ADS L1290, which I enjoyed greatly over 25 years.
If money weren’t a factor (not that they are particularly expensive), I could see getting a pair to use with recordings with which they excel. But finances and space dictate I have something that that can do most everything well (my Soundfield Audio Monitor 1 fits the bill nicely).
Thanks again Jay! :thumb: “
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Does anyone know how I can buy Magnepans if I don't have a dealer in my country? I called up Magnepan a few hours ago naively expecting to be able to order a set of 1.7i directly from them.
The person I spoke with told me that they don't sell the 1.7i model factory direct. He said this is because they need to protect their dealer and distributor network...which doesn't exist in this country. He said that I should deal with one of the two dealers on my continent, and gave me two email addresses which don't work.
I called again and was put through to Wendell's line, though he wasn't in at that moment. I left a message with him, but was only able to leave my email as contact information. (I do my international calling through Skype because my lotto numbers haven't hit yet.)
I guess I need to be patient and wait for a reply, or try to call again another day. I thought it would be easier to give Magnepan my money!
EDIT:
After only about an hour (impressive!) here's the reply:
"Unfortunately, the only practical way to buy 1.7i would be when you are in a country with a dealer and take them back with you. Dealers will not sell into another country."
So if my heart is set on the 1.7i, I guess my best bet would be to bring a pair back on the plane when I return from visiting my family.
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Saturn94,
Only the LRS offers the trial/return offer just like the MMG had.
Not the larger models.
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You can purchase them in one country and ship them to your country paying whatever import duties your country charges.
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You can purchase them in one country and ship them to your country paying whatever import duties your country charges.
I wanted to buy them over the phone and have them shipped to my country. I called Magnepan and eventually had three different people tell me I can't buy the 1.7i direct from them, and that I need to purchase from a dealer. There is no dealer in my country. Wendell himself told me dealers will not sell outside their own countries, so I would need to go and visit, in person, whatever dealer I chose. Only then could anything be shipped to me.
I also asked, out of curiosity, about buying the LRS directly from Magnepan and was told the same, that I would need to buy from a dealer.
In the year 2019, with the invention of the internet three decades behind us, I am more than a little surprised that my best option is to fly to Hong Kong or Japan (the closest dealers to where I live in South Korea) to buy from someone. I thought Magnepan be willing to deal with me directly because their dealer network doesn't serve my area. I cannot understand who this policy helps.
Guess I'm looking for some electrostats now.
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That's a thought but if I really wanted a set of new 1.7i's I'd contact the dealers in Japan (or wherever) and see if they'd ship a pair to me.
The worst they could do is say no and freight would be a lot less than coming from the US.
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That's a thought but if I really wanted a set of new 1.7i's I'd contact the dealers in Japan (or wherever) and see if they'd ship a pair to me.
The worst they could do is say no and freight would be a lot less than coming from the US.
You're absolutely right, Steve. I'm trying (and failing) to maintain a level head over this.
As far as Hong Kong, I cannot find any online presence for the dealer, Excel Hifi, and the email address I was given doesn't work.
The list price I see for the Japanese Magnepan dealer has the 1.7i at nearly double the US dollar MSRP, and I would still need to deal with shipping and customs besides.
https://www.stella-inc.com/magnepan/index.html#price_list
I sent them an email anyway. Maybe they'll give me a 50% discount. There we go, my optimism is returning.
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I would think the best bet is the buy them from USA dealer, and shipped. Clearly the Japanese dealer is charging for the first shipping from Minnesota to Japan and far more.
You might look for US West coast dealers Maybe find one who HAS shipped something (anything actually) to South Korea. and find out yourself what shipping the size and weight of the boxes would be. Most likely DHL as the shipper of choice for big international items. The real problem is the importation, fees, and duties to South Korea. One wrong item on a piece of paper and your paid for speakers might vanish into some duties warehouse... for years.
If I were you, I would look for a South Korean dealer of some US made product, Audio Research? Conrad Johnson? who buys US products to assist give you a heads up on the importation issues.
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Shipping shouldn't be a problem. I've had other speakers shipped here from the US with zero issues. All that needs to happen is that there is a proper shipping label and my contact information is there for the customs officials on this end.
I'll send some emails over the weekend and let you folks know later what my conclusions are. Thanks for all the suggestions.
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Saturn94,
Only the LRS offers the trial/return offer just like the MMG had.
Not the larger models.
This is very disappointing. I don’t want to be in a situation trying to sell a pair of speakers that didn’t work out in my room/system because the manufacturer doesn’t allow returns (been there, done that, lost money).
In this age it doesn’t make sense to not offer direct sales with a reasonable return policy. I understand wanting to protect their dealer network, but many of us do not have a dealer available within a reasonable distance (in my case over 350 miles round trip).
Even if there was a local dealer here, a return policy is still a must since there’s simply no good substitute for auditioning speakers in your own room/system.
I miss my local shop. 😢
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I wanted to buy them over the phone and have them shipped to my country. I called Magnepan and eventually had three different people tell me I can't buy the 1.7i direct from them, and that I need to purchase from a dealer. There is no dealer in my country. Wendell himself told me dealers will not sell outside their own countries, so I would need to go and visit, in person, whatever dealer I chose. Only then could anything be shipped to me.
I also asked, out of curiosity, about buying the LRS directly from Magnepan and was told the same, that I would need to buy from a dealer.
In the year 2019, with the invention of the internet three decades behind us, I am more than a little surprised that my best option is to fly to Hong Kong or Japan (the closest dealers to where I live in South Korea) to buy from someone. I thought Magnepan be willing to deal with me directly because their dealer network doesn't serve my area. I cannot understand who this policy helps.
Guess I'm looking for some electrostats now.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
I thought the LRS was only sold factory direct (wasn’t the MMG only factory direct?)? Is it just because you’re out of the US?
I guess Magnepan is satisfied just selling to buyers who have a local dealer? Seems like they are losing a lot of potential customers this way.
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I think the idea is to keep the local dealers from disappearing entirely.
My "local" one is an hour or two away from me (depending on how many car wrecks there are).
I miss all the stereo stores myself. Every decent sized town used to have one, now it's iPods and ear buds.
Ugh.
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My local dealer is about a 15 minute freeway trip (during not rush hours).
He actually was an early Magnepan dealer, then quit carrying Magnepan for several years... Then took Magnepan back on. I was fortunate to have gone over and listened to a pair of 20.7s when they first few years they were out. He had a pair to demo. I went twice, with my own music, and listened for several hours. Then waffling, decided to not buy them. (that was at least five years ago). After he was not getting much interest in the 20.7s he sold the demo pair, and I doubt he would get another!
But at least when I decided to buy the 20.7 last year, I already had a very good idea of what they sound like.
Seeing as he is one of the survivors.. stopping carrying a slow selling brand and taking on others, actually pretty often, has managed to keep his business going. I know he quit brands when stores like Best Buy started carrying them. And he took on McIntosh when another big store, carrying MAC gear went belly up.
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Btw, I posted this in another thread after hearing the .7 in another AC member’s home. His room/listening area is bigger than mine, allowing the Maggies more space behind them, and a bit more “live” than my room.
“Big thanks to Jay for letting me visit to hear the .7! I really enjoyed it....even the non audio discussions. :D
Jay has them in a very nice, simple setup; a Mac Mini (optimized for playing music) connected to a DAC which was connected to the amp (class D I believe, 400 wpc). Having recently completely disassembled my combo audio/HT system ( I swear there must have been 5 miles of cables!), I can really appreciate the appeal of keeping it simple!
Overall, the sound from them was very clear and detailed. Well recorded voices and piano stood out to me as absolutely superb! Music with small assembles sounded superb as well. I can see wanting a pair just for these qualities. Performance with large orchestral works was mixed, especially with the entire orchestra going full tilt. Perhaps a bigger panel would be better suited for this.
The .7’s detail/high resolution is a double edged sword. Great recordings sound great, stunning even. Sub par recordings, not so great. They certainly aren’t very forgiving speakers. Bad recordings have nowhere to hide.
Perhaps they are too small for the room they are in (Jay mentioned earlier he intended to use them in a smaller room), but they were pretty bass shy. Keep in mind I’m use to a system that includes a large sub with 3 15” drivers (sealed cabinet, 4000 watt amp) that can provide as much bass (extension down to 8hz) as I’d ever want, and most any music recording would call for. A sub would be a must for me with the .7. Of course, what bass was there was very clean.
As Maggie’s are known for, there’s a complete absence of any “box sound”. That lack of a box sound can be very addictive. I remember back in the early 80s when I was looking to replace pair of SMGs (wanted better bass/output capabilities), I found it difficult to find a box speaker that’s didn’t sound like a box. I ended up replacing them with the ADS L1290, which I enjoyed greatly over 25 years.
If money weren’t a factor (not that they are particularly expensive), I could see getting a pair to use with recordings with which they excel. But finances and space dictate I have something that that can do most everything well (my Soundfield Audio Monitor 1 fits the bill nicely).
Thanks again Jay! :thumb: “
Yep -- the bigger ones give you deeper bass, higher output, and lower distortion. The large ones are superb on orchestral material because they can make a huge image. The .7's are basically their compact model for smaller spaces or displeased spouses.
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This is very disappointing. I don’t want to be in a situation trying to sell a pair of speakers that didn’t work out in my room/system because the manufacturer doesn’t allow returns (been there, done that, lost money).
In this age it doesn’t make sense to not offer direct sales with a reasonable return policy. I understand wanting to protect their dealer network, but many of us do not have a dealer available within a reasonable distance (in my case over 350 miles round trip).
Even if there was a local dealer here, a return policy is still a must since there’s simply no good substitute for auditioning speakers in your own room/system.
I miss my local shop. 😢
I think part of the problem is that they're big and expensive to ship. Another issue is that dealers see direct sales as a threat. In a foreign country, service and support would also be an issue.
At one point, they had a "dealer direct" program where you could buy some things online and the sale would be handled by the nearest dealer, not sure what happened to that. But it's important to them to keep the dealer network alive, because large planar speakers sell only when people have heard them and realized how good they sound. The idea of the little LRS is to let people who don't live near a dealer hear a taste of the Maggie sound on trial. If they like it, they can then move up to a larger model.
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I certainly understand wanting to preserve the dealer network. But I don’t see how selling online to those without a dealer threatens any existing dealers. As it is, it leaves those without a (reasonably) local dealer few to no options. Apparently, Magnepan is ok with this.
I seriously miss my local dealer who would let me audition most anything at home, knowing I’d likely end up buying it. :lol:
I’m can’t say I’m real confident that the LRS would give me a good enough idea how a larger Maggie (and which one??) would look and perform in my room. Am I wrong? :scratch:
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I certainly understand wanting to preserve the dealer network. But I don’t see how selling online to those without a dealer threatens any existing dealers. As it is, it leaves those without a (reasonably) local dealer few to no options. Apparently, Magnepan is ok with this.
I seriously miss my local dealer who would let me audition most anything at home, knowing I’d likely end up buying it. :lol:
I’m can’t say I’m real confident that the LRS would give me a good enough idea how a larger Maggie (and which one??) would look and perform in my room. Am I wrong? :scratch:
The LRS would certainly give you an idea about how a 0.7 or a 1.7i would sound in your room depending upon the size. The 3.7i is a different animal. I own both an original MMG and the 1.6's. My room is 17x17 with 9 foot ceilings. The MMG's easily filled the room without strain. Of course, you need a good amp.
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The LRS would certainly give you an idea about how a 0.7 or a 1.7i would sound in your room depending upon the size. The 3.7i is a different animal. I own both an original MMG and the 1.6's. My room is 17x17 with 9 foot ceilings. The MMG's easily filled the room without strain. Of course, you need a good amp.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
My space is a living room/ dining room combo that’s about 14 x 25, with a cathedral ceiling that goes from 9’ at the long wall to about 19’ at the opposite side. The living area is also open to the stairwell and small upstairs landing. The living area, where my system is, is about 14 x 14 (actual useable area is about the 11 x 14) with the speakers on the long wall of the room.
So while the usable floor space is smalll (main speakers 7-7.5’ from the main listening position, max space behind the main speakers is 2.5 - 3ft.), the actual cubic feet of the the space is about 5500 ft3. There’s a pic of my listening area on post 379 in this thread.
I believe my amp would be up to the task; Parasound Classic 5250, 250wpc @ 8ohms, 385 wpc @ 4 ohms, 45 amps peak per channel. https://www.parasound.com/vintage/5250.php
So, one question is, if I like the “appetizer” and want/need to move up to a bigger panel, is it worth it to have to deal with a dealer over 175 miles away?
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I certainly understand wanting to preserve the dealer network. But I don’t see how selling online to those without a dealer threatens any existing dealers. As it is, it leaves those without a (reasonably) local dealer few to no options. Apparently, Magnepan is ok with this.
I seriously miss my local dealer who would let me audition most anything at home, knowing I’d likely end up buying it. :lol:
I’m can’t say I’m real confident that the LRS would give me a good enough idea how a larger Maggie (and which one??) would look and perform in my room. Am I wrong? :scratch:
The impression I have is that dealers are very threatened by anything like that. They see it as a foot in the door and online sales as destroying brick and mortar stores. But I assume there's a way to handle this situation, e.g., if you ordered something from a dealer by phone, Magnepan could drop ship it to you. It's going to be shipped to the dealer from the factory, anyway. I know that they sell speakers to people who haven't heard the model, e.g., 20.7's, which most dealers don't have on display.
The LRS was specifically designed to give people with good equipment a taste of the sound of their current larger models. Wendell Diller would just love people with $30,000 speakers to try it, it's that good. Of course, you're going to get more with the larger models -- deeper bass, higher output, and the amazing true ribbon tweeter on the 3.7 and up. But at more moderate levels, the LRS is basically a slice out of a big Maggie. However, Wendell says it won't work in big rooms, it doesn't couple properly so the bass disappears.
I think the thing to do is to give Wendell a call at Magnepan and discuss the situation, he's very aware of the vanishing dealer problem and is doing his best to find ways around it. He can probably give you a good idea about whether a given model will work in your room, too. He doesn't like to sell the wrong model to people because they depend on word of mouth and a good reputation.
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I think it's time to take this to a different thread if you wish to continue this discussion.
There are no questions for the factory here.
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I think it's time to take this to a different thread if you wish to continue this discussion.
There are no questions for the factory here.
I do not understand. Are questions about where to buy Magnepans and which model would be appropriate in a given room not appropriate questions for the Magnepan factory? :scratch:
Oh well, I’ll move on since my questions have been answered to some extent (where to buy? Except for the LRS, from a dealer, period! Which model for my room? Call Magnepan, don’t ask in this thread :scratch: )
Please correct me if I’ve misunderstood your post.
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I see on Magnepan’s website the LRS comes with a 60 day return policy. I thought they also offered full credit towards an upgrade within the first year, but I see no mention of that on the website.
Does Magnepan no longer offer the 1 year full credit towards an upgrade?
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The LRS program is the same as the MMGi. There is a one-year upgrade to a 1.7i or higher with a partial credit.
I looked and the MMGi trade in was full credit so I'm not sure if I have the definitive answer or not. At the very least I can say that there is a trade in period towards the big boys.
I asked Wendell years ago what they did with all of the returned ones and he said that very few speakers ever come back.
Everyone probably does what I did: hold onto them and use them in another system.
I'm thinking of getting some LRS for the TV system and using my old MMGs set up like giant Stax headphones by my computer.
No fooling.
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The LRS program is the same as the MMGi. There is a one-year upgrade to a 1.7i or higher with a partial credit.
I looked and the MMGi trade in was full credit so I'm not sure if I have the definitive answer or not. At the very least I can say that there is a trade in period towards the big boys.
I asked Wendell years ago what they did with all of the returned ones and he said that very few speakers ever come back.
Everyone probably does what I did: hold onto them and use them in another system.
I'm thinking of getting some LRS for the TV system and using my old MMGs set up like giant Stax headphones by my computer.
No fooling.
Should I decide to order, I’ll call Magnepan to see if they can confirm the details of the program. It’s odd that this isn’t spelled out on the website.
Interestingly, searching on Google I found an old Magnepan webpage that mentioned a 60 day return period for the 1.7 (has since expired).
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...although they're really against conventional cone woofers and any sort of built-in amplification. I know for a fact that ain't never gonna happen even if ain't ain't in the dictionary.
Jeez, how I wish I made a bet with you about this.
Six months later we have a prototype and tour.
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HA!
I'm really surprised at the direction they took - I remember Wendell going on about how audiophiles hate built in amplification because it doesn't give them any choice as to what to use, the problem with cone speakers is blah blah blah...
Hope it works out for them.
I've given up on a smaller 20.7 which is something I'd actually purchase for myself.
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That might be the next step. :-) Wendell is starting with the flagship and if that flies they'll work on less expensive models.
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“If we sold the portion of the speaker from 200 Hz up, you could put it in the average apartment. Yes, it would be tall, but very narrow.”
They should put that portion on the market. Implementing ones own bass solution isn’t that hard.
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I'm running 2 DWMs in a left and right stereo configuration. Because each one comes with 2 inputs, should they be wired in series or parallel for best bass reproduction? Do you know what the actual frequency response of a DWM is? Literature and web site both state 40hz to 200hz. I am not seeing anything close to 40hz even though they are 4 feet from the backwall and 40 inches from a side wall. Thank you, Jerry :D
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For dwmaggie:
Too complex for emails. Ask them to call us.
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Maybe you could provide a synopsis of your conversation?
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11X17 you'll be fine. I started with them in a 11-9 X 15 room have since moved to 3.7i in the same room amazing sounds.
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Yes, I have a Qu for the Magnepan factory.
Having just blown a 2-ohm (T-IVa) ribbon, I am taking the opportunity of swapping my old ribbons for a pair of current, 3-ohm ribbons.
Obviously, a more expensive proposition but:
* as I run a 3-way active system, 3 ohms is a more benign load on my ribbon amp than 2 ohms.
* and it means that any future ribbon blows can be more quickly resolved (as 3-ohm replacements are readily available from the importer, whereas 2-ohm ribbons need to be rebuilt).
The current 3-ohm ribbon cage is 5/8" longer than the previous 2-ohm ribbon cage. As the screw holes in the flanges are identical ... this means I have to extend the slot which the ribbon cage fits into, by 5/16" either end!
This is not a straightforward task - there's a lot of finicky cutting involved, as I have hardwood frames.
So I'm wondering why Magnepan decided to increase the length of the ribbon cage, when they moved to the 3-ohm ribbon?
Given the old 2-ohm ribbon cage was 60" in length, if you had kept the same length for the newer 3-ohm ribbon, its resistance would've measured 60 / 60.625 * 3 ohms. Which is 2.97 ohms. Which is absolutely no different, as far as any amplifier is concerned.
And if you had kept the same length ... the swap-over would've been painless.
Andy
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My bet is it had to be painful. Or all those current (back then) owners would just swap them instead of buying NEW speakers and thus keep Magnepan in business....
If i ran a business I would be sure to make it dang impossible to upgrade old stuff to the new parts.
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My bet is it had to be painful. Or all those current (back then) owners would just swap them instead of buying NEW speakers and thus keep Magnepan in business....
If i ran a business I would be sure to make it dang impossible to upgrade old stuff to the new parts.
That is a very good point, Liz! :lol:
I would still like to get Magnepan's explanation, though.
Andy
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I just saw this, been busy screwing around with guitars and work and stuff.
Let me see if I can't find out (if anyone remembers is probably more like it, that was a while ago)!
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I just saw this, been busy screwing around with guitars and work and stuff.
Let me see if I can't find out (if anyone remembers is probably more like it, that was a while ago)!
Thanks, Steve. :thumb:
Andy
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Well, here's the response:
These questions are impossibly difficult for emails. He should call.
I think you're in Australia so if I hear anything else I'll let you know to save you the monster phone bill.
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Well, here's the response:
These questions are impossibly difficult for emails. He should call.
I think you're in Australia so if I hear anything else I'll let you know to save you the monster phone bill.
I understand Wendell has a problem with emails, Steve - but that is a pathetic response for a corporation in 2020. Shirley there are others at Magnepan who are happy emailing (younger executives, say)?
I don't want a discussion on their thinking 25 years ago - so to me, the answer to my question is one sentence - eg:
* (as Liz suggested) we made the length different to try to stop people swapping over ribbons, as we felt that would negatively impact our sales of new 3.X spkrs.
This is a perfectly sensible business decision!
Or:
* our technical department made calculation of the length of ribbon required to deliver 3 ohms - and we didn't think of the impact on old ribbon owners.
I don't believe this possibility - as changing ribbon-cage lengths would've had a manufacturing impact ... which would've cost time & money.
Anyway - colour me disappointed. :(
Andy
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Yep.
And stop calling me Shirley!