AudioCircle
Community => Non-audio hobbies and interests => Cars and Bikes => Topic started by: ctviggen on 11 Apr 2016, 03:45 pm
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Anyone have a true electric car (not the Chevy Volt, which has an engine that can charge the batteries, and not the Tesla, which I don't think is affordable for 99.99999% of the population)? If so, how do you use it? What's the trip distance to/from work? Do you take it out on weekends?
Since my wife is (one of these days) getting a 7/8 passenger vehicle, I started looking into electric cars for my car. However, I have the following issues with them:
1) They're really expensive, even with the rebates/tax refunds. And the tax refund is only a refund, meaning that you'd have to put up the money until you get the money back in taxes.
2) They have a (listed) range of maybe 80 miles.
3) The actual range (as tested by car mags) is much less, by almost 20 miles. Furthermore, that's on a good day when it's not cold and you're not running the heater and heated seats. When it's brutally cold outside, you'll be lucky to make it forty miles.
4) As far as I can tell, they're basically a car to go to and from work, and that's about it. They're not really a second car. In other words, if you want to go on a 2-3 hour trip for a weekend get-away, you can't take that car. Which means that if you have a family, you're putting all the mileage on the 7/8 passenger vehicle, which gets terrible gas mileage, and little to none on the car that gets great gas mileage.
5) There are no charging stations anywhere. For instance, where I work, there's one charging station in that town, and it's nowhere close to where I actually work.
6) Many of the cars don't support fast charging (as popularized by Tesla), which means it takes hours to charge your car.
So, does anybody here have an all-electric car? If so, how do you use it? Would you disagree with anything I said above? If so, what?
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I don't have an electric car even though I would really like to. I have a 2006 Prius and I only buy about 90 gallons of gas a year between it and my seldom used '97 Tacoma. I also have learned that I overbought on my solar panels. Naturally it seemed like an obvious choice to use my excess electricity (prepaid for life) rather than buying petroleum but, try as I may, I could not find a way to justify the expenditure.
For you, however, the new Tesla 3 ($35,000) or the upcoming Chevy Bolt ($37,500) are a couple of options to explore. Both are expected to deliver over 200 miles per charge. It is also a good idea to look into your state's laws concerning electric cars. Here in Colorado there is an interesting loophole whereby you can buy a used electric vehicle fro out of state and still get the original tax consideration. It is called a credit but they pay it to you directly, even if you don't have any tax liability. The only catch is the car must not have been registered in Colorado previously. I considered buying a LEAF from out of state and having it trailered back here. Those cars can be had for as little as $8000 and the tax rebate is around $2500 to $3000.
In the end, you have to look at how much it costs to save money unless you simply want to do the right thing by lightening your carbon damage. That's a personal decision, of course. Obviously I chose the path that best suited my economics. Since I'm retired and my wife is counting the days until she can join me, we are squeezing our pennies. No electric car for us for the foreseeable future. At the rate we are driving the Prius will probably outlive us.
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Unfortunately, I won't be in the market for a car by the time either of those get here. I did read an interesting comparison of the Chevy Volt and the Prius, and the impression I got was that if you use the Volt's gas engine (to charge the batteries), the Prius works out to be a better value, having cheaper over-all costs. If you can use just electric for the Volt, though, then the Volt is a better deal.
I could still look into the Prius (and similar gas/electric engine cars), but I really need to figure out what I want in a second car. I keep thinking I'd like the second car to take some load off the main car, which means being able to take shorter trips with stuff for four people. Currently, I use my VW Jetta Diesel wagon for that, but we see how that turned out. I'll have to see what I can fit into a Prius and get the wife to test drive one with me.
As for solar panels, I also installed these on my home and I don't know how good they are. The electric company keeps raising rates (if I produce more than I use, I still pay $19/month). I don't mind paying fees if I produce more than I use, as the company still has to maintain all the lines. However, in Arizona, what they did was when you produce more than you use, the company pays one rate (say 5 cents/kwHr), but when you use more than you produce, the company makes you pay a second rate (say, 10 cents/kwHr). The way I pay, those are the same rates (that is, the rate I pay when I take energy from the grid is the same as the rate I pay when I put energy on the grid). If my state changes this to the Arizona model, my solar panels will be a waste. We'll have to see what happens.
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I have had a Nissan Leaf for the last two years and it is my favorite car I have ever owned. Obviously Im not a car guy and have little to no use for BMWs and the like.
1) you can be in a Leaf for under $25k
2) and 3) I driver mine every work day and with the heat on you will ALWAYS get over 60miles. Im not sure where you got that 40 mile number. The biggest difference in range is when driving 60mph on the freeway vs side roads. While it is satisfying on the freeway the range is diminished.
4) We drive our Leaf 90% of the time even on weekends. Sure if you are driving a few hours away then its no good but overtime you are home you are charging so its not a "per day" range. You could drive 60 miles in the morning and be fully charged in two hours.
5) In two years I have never charged anywhere but home. I think my all in delivered eclectic rate is ~$0.18/kWh and most charging stations are $0.5/kWh. How far do you work? Why do you need to charge when out?
6) I know my Leaf has a fast DC fast charge socket but the stations are not available.
I love my car. Its truly great to never go to a gas station and I have never ran out of charge. Let me know if you have any other questions.
How often do you drive over 60miles in a day?
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How often do you drive over 60miles in a day?
Nearly every time I drive, since I live 22 miles from the edge of town and the nearest grocery store, restaurant, etc. are a few miles in. Does that mean that us rural folks shouldn't sign up for the latest Tesla?
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The Leaf is one car I would be looking at. I usually drive to and from work, about 40 miles total. My wife is adamant, though, that I would have to be able to pick up one or both kids, should I need to do so, which will add at least 10-15 more miles, and may add more.
As for the 40 mile range, that's an estimate because the batteries are worse in the cold and would have to run a heater and heated seats. See:
http://www.plugincars.com/reduced-ranges-electric-cars-cold-129205.html
"Yes, I have personally experienced a 20 percent drop in range, between driving a Nissan LEAF along the Mediterranean Sea, and an identical LEAF in Oslo. The car tested in the south was on summer tires, while the one driven in the north had winter tires. This alone can reduce range by 10 percent considering most EVs are sold with special low rolling resistance tires (in Europe). Of course, I had the heater on when driving in Norway. The temperature was about zero degrees Celsius."
So, I guess electric cars are really to and from work cars, until they get up to 200+ miles.
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Nearly every time I drive, since I live 22 miles from the edge of town and the nearest grocery store, restaurant, etc. are a few miles in. Does that mean that us rural folks shouldn't sign up for the latest Tesla?
Personally, I can't tell what I think about spending 70k for an electric car. Certainly, you can't be looking for reduced cost, as you wouldn't get that money back over many decades. So, I don't know why people buy a Tesla.
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Until there are more charging stations, a drop better range and the price starts to get a bit more competitive, I don't think they are quite ready for prime time. I have solar panels integrated into the roof tiles (and if I shut off the pool pump running for 8 hrs./day it would probably be negligible monthly costs if anything). I put several circuits in the garage (I have 300 amp electrical service, 50 amps for the audio system and have an extra three circuits in the garage each with 2 receptacles) in case I ever consider one. I went with an electric golf cart as a second car and on some occasions, I use it to got to the local shopping center for lunch.
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The Leaf is one car I would be looking at. I usually drive to and from work, about 40 miles total. My wife is adamant, though, that I would have to be able to pick up one or both kids, should I need to do so, which will add at least 10-15 more miles, and may add more.
As for the 40 mile range, that's an estimate because the batteries are worse in the cold and would have to run a heater and heated seats. See:
http://www.plugincars.com/reduced-ranges-electric-cars-cold-129205.html
"Yes, I have personally experienced a 20 percent drop in range, between driving a Nissan LEAF along the Mediterranean Sea, and an identical LEAF in Oslo. The car tested in the south was on summer tires, while the one driven in the north had winter tires. This alone can reduce range by 10 percent considering most EVs are sold with special low rolling resistance tires (in Europe). Of course, I had the heater on when driving in Norway. The temperature was about zero degrees Celsius."
So, I guess electric cars are really to and from work cars, until they get up to 200+ miles.
In my personal first hand experience I would feel comfortable getting 60mile range 365 days here in MA. Absolutely 100%.
SClark: I have two kids and a wife. Does that mean I should not only have two seat sports cars?? YMMV
As for prime time, some folks won't be willing to convert. For the most part range issues are in people's heads.
People get hung up on charging stations. In most cities they are everywhere. That said most EV owners don't use them. What's the point paying 2x to get 15min of juice at the grocery? It's pointless.
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Having had a dealer loan for 24 hours, I can say that the Tesla S is a fabulous luxury car which compares well with other cars in it's price class. A 250 miles range is very adequate for most driver's needs. When the 200 mile, $35,000 Model 3 really becomes available, it will be a game changer. The huge advance sales clearly speak to the pent up demand. The other major auto makers will be there too.
In the meantime, my ebike gets a lot of use. It's terrific!
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=141040)
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There are now nearly 200,000 of these on the road now.
The long range dual motor version has 310 miles range and with a network of fast charging stations over much of the USA now range anxiety is pretty well eliminated.
The cost of the AWD model is now under $50,000 and it is amazing to drive. Rear wheel only model with 240 mile range is $42,000.
These are rated the safest cars made right now.
Must be a member or two out there that now owns one. I am thinking about one this spring.
Frank
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The Tesla 3, Chevrolet Bolt, and the Nissan Lief are now proven successes. 2019 and 2020 will see the introduction of many more choices, all with considerable range, from major manufactures. The day of the pure electric car is here! Without a doubt, my next car will be an EV. And, my existing solar system at my home will provide the power.
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I don't think you get the significance of an electric car. You don't look for charging stations like gas stations. You charge it at home for all of your local commuting. It's only when you take a long trip that you need charging stations. I took a trip to San Diego and used lots of charging stations along the way. You need a potty break or food anyway and you need to stretch your legs.
There is NOTHING out there like a Tesla, at least yet. They are the only car with a long-range charging infrastructure already in place, for the US and Canada. My models S charges to almost 300 miles at a DC Supercharger when travelling. For local, I use a "destination charger", which is AC at my home. It charges about a mile a minute. The Supercharger charges about 3-5 miles/minute.
Inexpensive Model 3 is due out this year. The current model averages about $50K with 320 miles range and 4-wheel drive. The inexpensive one is alleged to cost less than the average car cost in the US, which is $36K. You will save on average $50/month doing the same driving because it gets such good mileage.
Steve N.
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I had the electric Fiat for three years. then I had a BMW i3 for two years And now I'm waiting for the "cheap" Tesla. 98% of the time I charged my car at home. Occasionally I would park and charge just because it was a better spot but here in California there's so many electric cars gone are the days of getting a primum parking spot. Others are right that said you don't go out looking for places the charge car. You do all your charging at home. My city is also only 7 mi.² so the range thing was rarely an issue for the last five years. Even when I had a 20 mile each way commute it was never a problem. In both my cars got about 100 miles per charge.
Both of my cars my monthly payment was cheap. $212 for the Fiat and The Bmw was 252$. Both with minimal down payments that the state gave 2500$ back and covered. Most people would say never buy only lease electric cars. Tesla is changing that by making the lease options horrible.
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This one's all electric, I think;
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=190663)
Kinda small, but cheap ...
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And pink!
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A great concept for sure. Would buy one when they put a charger in vehicle. Do not like the idea of charging stations. Why cannot an alternator be used ? Everyone would want one. If and when it would be a Tesla.
charles
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A recent Tesla crash in Fremont, California resulted in a car fire and it wasn't a gas tank that exploded. Scary stuff. :o
https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/02/18/tesla-model-x-crashes-burns-fremont/
https://patch.com/california/fremont/fiery-crash-destroys-tesla-fremont
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Tesla is the safest car on the road, period. Many Tesla head-ons result in the other driver dying and the Tesla driver walking away. Nobody talks about those. The reason that the very few Tesla incidents are publicized is that the gas car manufacturers and oil companies don't want them on the road. They are the future, no denying it.
Have you seen the large fire crashes on the highways on the east coast? Two of them in the last 2 weeks. Many people injured in other cars nearby. Gasoline and diesel is much worse because it leaks out and burns you up before you can exit the car.
Steve N.
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ctviggen I just like to make one recommendation. Electric cars have become main stream and are now addressing all of your concerns. Or put another way there is no good reason not to buy an electric car. Just find one in your budget.
Ric
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We live in a modest city house without a garage but a driveway that extends along the side of the house. Without a garage, where would I put a charging station?
Best,
Lester
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We live in a modest city house without a garage but a driveway that extends along the side of the house. Without a garage, where would I put a charging station?
Best,
Lester
On the side of the house inside a locked box.
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Still loving my two Bolts plus I put the deposit down on a Rivian SUV!! :o
We will see how that goes.
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We live in a modest city house without a garage but a driveway that extends along the side of the house. Without a garage, where would I put a charging station?
Best,
Lester
I would think that a simple box over the charger should suffice, even if it doesn't lock. If you don't have lots of vandals in your neighborhood then skip the box. I had a 240V outlet put in my carport and the charge cable run along the carport roof. Just pull the connector of its hook and plug in after work. I do not miss pumping gas.
A hard wired charger seems like an unlikely target for vandalism but you should have a good feel whether your it would be fine in your neighborhood. Just hiding it from view of passers by ought to be enough.
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On the side of the house inside a locked box.
Hey, is that the ‘locked box’ Al Gore was talking about? Heh,heh,heh. Locked box.
Anyway, makes sense. Will have to get the electrician to check the lines coming into our 106 y/o house. Plus, it’s in a preservation district and any changes to the exterior have to be approved by the Landmark Society. And there’s always WAF to consider.
Yup EkW, it would have to be a locked box in this neigborhood.
Yup, I do believe there’s a Tesla in my future.
Thanks all.
Cheers,
Lester
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Box would be easier, but you could try hiding it in a milkman's delivery door if the preservationists make an issue of it.
Just hope they don't require you to buy a 100 year old electric car. :green:
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I’ve never seen a charging station in a box around me but I guess different places may.
Also, the plug and wall unit are not a charger. Semantics but it’s really just a smart plug. The charger is in the vehicle.
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I just want to say I admire and appreciate all you guys who have stepped up and bought an electric vehicle. I wish I could justify buying one. I have never purchased a new car in my life but would do so if the numbers were not utterly unjustifiable. My 2006 Prius has about 121,000 miles on the clock and has never needed a repair. Additionally, we put about 3000 miles/year on it at avg. 45 mpg. That's a whopping 67 gallons/year. Currently, with grocery points deducted from fuel purchases, I pay about $1.50/gal. That's maybe $100 for gas and $50ish for an oil change. At that rate I wouldn't live long enough to earn back the taxes and fees from the new car purchase. Plus, at 71, I think I'm too old for car payments.
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I just want to say I admire and appreciate all you guys who have stepped up and bought an electric vehicle. I wish I could justify buying one. I have never purchased a new car in my life but would do so if the numbers were not utterly unjustifiable. My 2006 Prius has about 121,000 miles on the clock and has never needed a repair. Additionally, we put about 3000 miles/year on it at avg. 45 mpg. That's a whopping 67 gallons/year. Currently, with grocery points deducted from fuel purchases, I pay about $1.50/gal. That's maybe $100 for gas and $50ish for an oil change. At that rate I wouldn't live long enough to earn back the taxes and fees from the new car purchase. Plus, at 71, I think I'm too old for car payments.
Maybe consider a demo or used Tesla Model 3? Just contact any Tesla dealership and they will tell you what is available across the country. They don't wear-out like ICE cars, unless they have been abused by racing them.
You don't go to a dealership to buy Tesla. I bought mine online. Try this for used/demos:
https://www.tesla.com/inventory/used/ms (https://www.tesla.com/inventory/used/ms)
Steve N.
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When SUV sized vehicles offer self charging option I'm in hook lie and sinker. Do like the deal with power companies overcharging for Elec. We would also have a smaller footprint with Elec.
charles
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I didn't remember starting this thread, but I did not buy an electric car. Without tax breaks, they're really too expensive, and even with tax breaks, these are only tax breaks and don't reduce the payments you pay.
Also, I pay about 20 cents a kilowatt hour for electricity (last month was 21.5 cents/kwHr), and while it's slightly cheaper than gas, it's not that much cheaper for electricity than gas. Unfortunately, I did not have my Chevy Volt long enough to see what it really took to go to and from work, so maybe my few calculations are off. The last data point I have was about $50/month and the electricity at that time was 18.75 cents/kwHr. Considering that car cost $10,000 more than the current car I have the only way that car (the Volt) was feasible was if there were incentives. With no incentives, it's cheaper to own a gas car.
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When SUV sized vehicles offer self charging option I'm in hook lie and sinker. Do like the deal with power companies overcharging for Elec. We would also have a smaller footprint with Elec.
charles
Isn't a Model X an SUV? What do you mean by "self-charging?
Steve N.
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I didn't remember starting this thread, but I did not buy an electric car. Without tax breaks, they're really too expensive, and even with tax breaks, these are only tax breaks and don't reduce the payments you pay.
Also, I pay about 20 cents a kilowatt hour for electricity (last month was 21.5 cents/kwHr), and while it's slightly cheaper than gas, it's not that much cheaper for electricity than gas. Unfortunately, I did not have my Chevy Volt long enough to see what it really took to go to and from work, so maybe my few calculations are off. The last data point I have was about $50/month and the electricity at that time was 18.75 cents/kwHr. Considering that car cost $10,000 more than the current car I have the only way that car (the Volt) was feasible was if there were incentives. With no incentives, it's cheaper to own a gas car.
The incentive is to save the planet for your grandchildren.
Steve N.
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A great concept for sure. Would buy one when they put a charger in vehicle. Do not like the idea of charging stations. Why cannot an alternator be used ? Everyone would want one. If and when it would be a Tesla.
Not sure what you mean? I plug my i3 into the wall with its wallwart. The charging stations are for if you want to charge faster.
Technically, all EVs have the charger in the car. The charging stations are something else, not chargers. But that's a nit.
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If they would just put a ICE in my electric car I would be all over it!!! :roll: :roll:
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Not sure what you mean? I plug my i3 into the wall with its wallwart. The charging stations are for if you want to charge faster.
Technically, all EVs have the charger in the car. The charging stations are something else, not chargers. But that's a nit.
Basically the same thing. My issue is no charge after initial charge. Why cannot they be designed to recharge themselves. IMO the only reason the Elec companies did not lobby against the Elec Vehicle. Same reason Edison sold out Tesla. MONEY.
Love the concept hope trucks will be next.
charles
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The incentive is to save the planet for your grandchildren.
Steve N.
Nonsense it is all about money or else they cars would charge themselves. Even less of a footprint.
charles
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Basically the same thing. My issue is no charge after initial charge. Why cannot they be designed to recharge themselves. IMO the only reason the Elec companies did not lobby against the Elec Vehicle. Same reason Edison sold out Tesla. MONEY.
Love the concept hope trucks will be next.
charles
Where does the energy come from to “recharge themselves”?
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EVs are not perpetual motion machines!
They need a recharge of electricity every couple hundred miles or so. They can be plugged in at home for an overnight charge, or at one of the hundreds of fast charging stations throughout the country (except North Dakota).
Tesla, in particular, has a well developed network of very fast “Superchargers” coast to coast.
Although they do need electricity, they do not need gasoline, motor oil, antifreeze, belts, hoses, spark plugs, tune-ups, and mufflers. In fact they have no exhaust system at all. With a Tesla it is electricity in, with nothing at all out except an amazingly pleasant driving experience.
Note that given the current limits of solar cell technology, it is not possible to cover a car with enough solar cells to propel it. Maybe enough to charge its battery at the rate of one mile charge gained per hour. You would need to let the car sit in the sun for a long time.
Don’t ask about the Tesla new Sentry mode. You won’t like it if you try to break into one now.
On the happier side, Tesla now includes a “dog mode”. This keeps the air conditioning turned on even when the car is parked and turned off to protect your pets while you make a quick shopping trip.
Tesla keeps sending out upgrades making their cars better and better.
No, I have not ordered one yet, but hopefully this spring.
Frank
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Teslas, like most all-electric cars, need minimal maintenance.
The Model 3 only requires battery coolant replacement every 50,000 mi / 4 yrs and brake fluid replacement every 25,000 mi / 2 yrs (like any car).
Further advancements in battery, charging and cooling technology may eliminate battery coolant altogether for all electric cars (the Nissan Leaf currently uses air-cooled batteries).
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Dog mode is great. I take my dog almost everywhere. With the EV I just leave it on and locked. She like NPR.
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If they would just put a ICE in my electric car I would be all over it!!! :roll: :roll:
I have an ICE in my electric BMW i3 REX. Does that work for you?
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I have an ICE in my electric BMW i3 REX. Does that work for you?
I was being sarcastic. I’m 100% electric on both cars.
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The coolest thing about Tesla is not the amazing acceleration, which it definitely can do. It's the dynamic braking that saves your brakes. If you are in cruise-mode (almost always), you don't need to brake except for complete stops. The brake pads last 100K-200K miles or more.
Also, if you have to deal with stop-and-go traffic, just let the car do this for you in Autopilot mode. Sit back and enjoy the music.
Steve N.
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Of course all of you with ICE cars will be out of luck without an electrical motor.
In your case, its called the starter. :o
Frank
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I would like to affirm Steve Nugent's finding!
I sold my S for a three. (personal preference). The standard stereo in the 3 is better than the upgraded one in the S and I must say the first car I felt the need NOT to upgrade!!!!
Wonderful cars on all fronts.
3 and a new aftermarket bumper that is a stellar redesign. $2000.
https://electrek.co/2019/02/18/tesla-model-3-aftermarket-bumper/