AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Enclosures => Topic started by: colekaye1 on 25 Jan 2012, 11:41 pm
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Hey everybody,
I happened to come across a pair of Snell Type E/III speakers. I'm new to the audio world and was wondering if anybody knows anything about them (what are they worth, are they worth keeping, etc.). Thank you for reading my post and I look forward to your responses.
-Colekaye1
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First off welcome to the forum! I’m currently a Snell owner myself and I’m on my second pair. I’m by no means an expert on the brand. I can tell you that they are an excellent pair of speakers. If you care about quality craftsmanship and sound they are worth keeping. They were made in the USA in Haverhill, MA by group of people who took great pride in their work. The cabinets were finished by hand with real wood veneers and the tweeters were matched within .5dB. I had to get some work on my speakers and was able to drive to the factory and met some of the people who worked there. If I remember correctly Snell was acquired by Boston Acoustics then by Harman Kardon. You can read about the company here http://www.snellacoustics.com/default.asp
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Welcome Cole. Are they worth it? Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One of the finest two way floorstanders ever designed. Originally $850 they rose to $1199 at the end of the run, yet they still demand fairly high prices on the used market, $400 and up for nice examples. They are actually a 2 1/4 way design as they have a supertweeter in the back for added ambiance. The original was designed by Peter, but Series III and IV were mostly the work of Kevin Voecks who took over design duties after Peter Snell's sudden death. The Series II and III were largely refinements of the original, with the Series IV taking a greater departure, much more Kevin's idea of what the speaker should have been. Beautiful tone, detailed, alive, strong and punchy bass, some whiffs of treble graininess creep in, but not to objectionable levels. Except for the Series IV, imaging was not their strong suit, more of a wall of sound than highly detailed soundstage, which Peter felt was more representative of actual concert hall presentation. For the Series IV this all changed, outstanding soundstaging with sharply drawn images. I'm a real fan of the Series IV, purists hate it. http://www.snell.no/the_archives_type_E.htm (http://www.snell.no/the_archives_type_E.htm) and http://www.snellacoustics.com/History.asp (http://www.snellacoustics.com/History.asp)
For used pairs you need to check the foam surround for rot. Snell used high quality foam, but it's still not a rubber surround. Check the rear level controls for scratchiness, again they used good components, but they are old. Finally, one of the hallmarks of the design were .5db matched drivers, which means the crossovers were hand tuned for each speaker. When I had to replace a woofer I got the new woofer with the added crossover components to bring it into spec with the other half of the pair. They still had the tested response curves on file 10 years later. Don't know if that still holds true since the purchase by D&M Holdings. But for you it means if any of the crossover caps have changed values over the years, they may or may not have direct replacements, worth checking out.
Lastly, Audio Note UK still sells the original Type E design under their own brand as the AN-E with four different price levels, from memory about $3500 to something under $10k?, or something insane like that. They are improved designs, but I didn't think that improved when I heard them.
Hope this helps.
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I have owned the Snell E III speakers since 1998 and I had the surrounds done about 2 years ago. They are fantastic speakers. I've had them in 3 different rooms in my house and they've sounded good everywhere. I've had them with a variety of electronics,Bryston, Counterpoint, NAD,McIntosh, Nuforce and right now Quicksilver V4 amps, Counterpoint SA 1000 pre, CAL Sigma II Dac, Sony 775 SACD player. I agree with the others in that they may not be the best at imaging but you can certainly get pretty good results with experimenting with positioning. I also own Vandersteen 3A Sigs and Maggie 1.6 in other systems and the Snells are just as enjoyable to listen to. They just play music and are easy to integrate with most any electronics up front.
www.snell.no is a sight devoted to Snell speakers that may be of help. Enjoy your Snells.
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Thanks so much for the info guys! Looks like I stumbled into something good. :D The foam surrounds were rotted when I got them, so I bought a couple of foam kits and re-foamed them. Everything else with the speakers seems to be alright, I didn't have any scratchiness with the rear level controls. Do you guys think that the new foam would either drastically change the sound or the value of the speakers? They currently sound great with the new foam surrounds. I can only imagine what they must have sounded like right out of the box.
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No, refoaming can only improve what you had. Dead on spec, perhaps not, but the motor, spider and cone have way more effect than one foam surround or another. If you had changed to rubber or coated the surround it might make a major difference. The only other thing that could change is the value of the caps in the crossover, which could lower the crossover point. I wouldn't sweat it unless you start hearing distortion in the upper mids/lower treble. Since AFAIK you have to remove the caps to test their value, it's only for obsessive DIY'ers or if you hear a problem. Enjoy, you have found a winner. BTW, could we ask how much you paid?
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Anyone out there know if Peter Snell designed his speakers like the E Type to go in the corners? I know that the Audio Note Speakers which are basically Snells but very tweaked out with high grade components and wire, are always demoed with them being in the corner. The demos I've heard of them have been fantastic, with great imaging, sound stage and the bass for being in the corner is not over ripe or bloated. I've never tried putting my E III's in the corner but was wondering about this. The Snells have a port in the back as well as the rear firing tweeter which I don't think the Audio Notes have. Putting them in the corner would seem like a no-no with that design. Any feedback on this would be greatly appreciated.
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There's a toggle switch to turn off the rear tweeter, so that's not an issue, and yes, Peter Snell considered the room an integral part of his designs and could all be placed near wall if needed (hence the switch) or further out into the room. However they were not designed for corner placement like Allison's or Klipsch's. You see more of his in room theory in the Type A and B, with the B Minor down thru the K making more and more compromises for the marketplace.
Audio Note UK has their own ideas, some of which I don't particularly agree with, but they do a nice job executing them. I have only heard the AN-E's during show conditions in which they did not image as well as other displays in similar sized rooms and were not placed hard against the corners, just trending towards that with the front wall and the corners several feet away. But certainly you may have had better conditions to hear them in than I did. In any case they sounded very nice.
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Thanks for the speedy reply! My Snells do not have a toggle switch but do have a rotary knob in the back for adjusting the front tweeter output. Serial # 43869 and 438670. Would some production model E-III's have the toggle and some not?
Perhaps these were more of the Kevin Voecks design and to be used away from the walls with the rear tweeter for more of an atmospheric airy presentation. Interesting!
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What a coincidence, I just got a pair of new 8" factory Snell replacement woofers today in the mail for my J's. The E/III were the first Snell's I owned when I started to gravitate towards "high" end speakers/components. The E's have a great mid-range, are smooth and pair very well with tubes I found. One of Snell's real strengths are the reproduction of voice. I currently own C/V's, D's, M's and a pair of J/III.
As for re-foaming,(I have done about 6 woofers) as long as the woofer remained centered and did not get pulled one way or the other when the glue setup, you should not be able to tell much of a difference. There is no real need to pull the dust cap and shim the voice coil.
C/V's are in my two channel room and the D's/M's handle home theater duty.
You have a very nice set of speakers IMHO.
Enjoy
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I know that the Audio Note Speakers which are basically Snells but very tweaked out with high grade components and wire, are always demoed with them being in the corner. The demos I've heard of them have been fantastic, with great imaging, sound stage and the bass for being in the corner is not over ripe or bloated. I've never tried putting my E III's in the corner but was wondering about this.
tonyjack,
If you have two available corners that you can use with your Es then it will be well worth your time to try it out for yourself. Typically, the AN-E speakers start out by being placed directly in the corners and then gradually move their way out from the back wall while staying very close to the side wall. The tow in is aimed somewhere between the speakers pointed in your lap to just in front of your feet. This is the way that I have mine set up at home and it is the way that I have seen Mario (of AN UK) set them up for shows. (Mine are probably out from the back wall a little bit more than typical, but just as close to the side wall.)
If you keep your Snell E as close to the side wall as possible (2-4 inches) but move them as much as 18 inches away from the back wall of the corner, then your rear firing tweeter might have something to fire against with enough breathing room to be "ambient". Try turning the tweeters all the way down at first and then slowly bring them up until they become audible.
FWIW, here is a little bit of info on placing the AN-E : http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/speakers/speaker_placement.shtml (http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/speakers/speaker_placement.shtml), and a little more of the same starting on page 3 of the owner's manual : http://www.audionote.co.uk/downloads/an-e_manual.pdf (http://www.audionote.co.uk/downloads/an-e_manual.pdf)
colekaye1,
Nice catch man! Enjoy. :thumb:
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Lastly, Audio Note UK still sells the original Type E design under their own brand as the AN-E with four different price levels, from memory about $3500 to something under $10k?, or something insane like that. They are improved designs, but I didn't think that improved when I heard them.
Did you ever read this Stereophile review? Kind of an eye opener. Look at the frequency response graph, Fig.4.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-note-e-lexus-signature-loudspeaker-measurements (http://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-note-e-lexus-signature-loudspeaker-measurements)
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Ref the above two posts, I have to correct myself, memory being what it is, I have a picture from the show I was referring to and lo and behold, the little suckers are in the corners.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/Letitroll98/Capitol%20Audiofest%202011/Copyof100_0723.jpg)
I believe these are the are one of the Signature Series with the hemp woofers. My notes say $16,000 a pair! :o I love Snell speakers, and I thought these sounded splendid, but I would spend my $16k on Joseph Audio Perspectives, YMMV.
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I believe these are the are one of the Signature Series with the hemp woofers. My notes say $16,000 a pair! :o
Nice pic.
So how much do you think it would cost one to build their own? Maybe $1000?
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Nice pic.
So how much do you think it would cost one to build their own? Maybe $1000?
I don't know, that's so hard to say because you don't know if you could even source the exact drivers. But saying you could get a reasonable facsimile, maybe ScanSpeak Revelator for woofer, Morel MDT33 tweeter, you could be into $800 for drivers easily. Outboard crossover so I'd assume some big oil caps and high quality inductors, maybe another $500 there. Furniture grade woodwooking, assuming you can't DIY, another $600. So parts cost, a bit under $2k a pair guesstimate. Your time is free because you're keeping them, and assuming anyone taking this on would have the test equipment on hand.
Manufacturing for a market, way different parameters. You get wholesale purchase of parts, whether drivers or parts to manufacture your own, Audio Note UK may have many of the internals manufactured in house, wiring and coils for sure. You have to add in all the multitude of fixed and variable costs, but this gets spread out over your economy of scale. Not all that large with a cottage industry like Audio Note UK, but not insignificant. Wildly guessing, but maybe 40% more to get it to market than what you could build it for yourself (including your profit), then add a 20% distributor markup and then a 40% retail markup shows you could get on a showroom for under $5,000 retail. Then of course, I could be wrong.....
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QuietEarth: Thanks for that info. That's great. I can't really do proper corners due to my room configuration, but I can follow some of the guidelines indicated on the site. I'm getting very good results with the positioning they are in now but things are a bit compromised because of a set of drums in the middle of the room between the speakers. It actually helps in the ambiance department because the drums are tuned wide open, so you get a little of that with the sound of the system which is all tube. Other systems in the house are more precise from an imaging perspective. One more with drums and another without! I guess you could call it a natural tweak.
I'm still curious about the toggle switches that letitroll98 mentioned,as my model E III's do not have them.
The system in the photo is very much like what I heard at a VTV Audiophile Expo held here in New Jersey maybe 5 years ago. I remember the Audio Note room having the most inviting, natural sound at the show.
Thanks again for these great posts!
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Your welcome tonyjack. Have fun experimenting but take your time and try to live with each little change for a while before you move on or move them back.
Yes, the speakers in that picture look like the AN-E Lexus Signature, about $16K without the stands. I think that particular pair belongs to Dave Cope who helps them with the shows and other promotional stuff. (He used to be the AN US distributor a few years ago.) That pair is placed a little further back into the corners than I remember, but that is the gist of it. If you slid them forward about a foot along the side wall axis, but kept them just as close to the sides and with the same toe in, then that would be how I have mine set up. It works for me.
If someone can make those exact speakers for 1000 US dollars, and I mean make them exactly the same with the same parts and materials (or better), I will gladly pay you 4000 dollars for them. Does that sound fair? PM me when they are ready and I will come over and listen to them before I write you a check. Or if you prefer cash . . . . :D
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Your welcome tonyjack. Have fun experimenting but take your time and try to live with each little change for a while before you move on or move them back.
Yes, the speakers in that picture look like the AN-E Lexus Signature, about $16K without the stands. I think that particular pair belongs to Dave Cope who helps them with the shows and other promotional stuff. (He used to be the AN US distributor a few years ago.) That pair is placed a little further back into the corners than I remember, but that is the gist of it. If you slid them forward about a foot along the side wall axis, but kept them just as close to the sides and with the same toe in, then that would be how I have mine set up. It works for me.
If someone can make those exact speakers for 1000 US dollars, and I mean make them exactly the same with the same parts and materials (or better), I will gladly pay you 4000 dollars for them. Does that sound fair? PM me when they are ready and I will come over and listen to them before I write you a check. Or if you prefer cash . . . . :D
I have an AudioNote dealer in my town, I've seen and listened to some of the AN loudspeakers. I wasn't impressed one single bit. Not even.
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Just an FYI that the OP has these speakers up for sale.
http://www.snell.no/forum/index.php/topic,2180.0.html (http://www.snell.no/forum/index.php/topic,2180.0.html)
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I have an AudioNote dealer in my town, I've seen and listened to some of the AN loudspeakers. I wasn't impressed one single bit. Not even.
I guess this means that you won't be building me a pair then..... :D
Just kidding. There are plenty of people that don't like Audio Note or their products. Sometimes I wish I were one of them. (My wallet sure does. :oops:)
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The Audio Note speakers don't really sound like the Snell E III's and I don't think the designer wants them to. He (Peter ?) has basically said he didn't care for the direction Snell took when Kevin Voecks took over. The basics of the speaker I would imagine is the same but the AN's are another animal. I think the Snells are more of a meat and potatoes type of speaker that don't really make a fuss. Everyone that's heard mine seems to really be taken with them. They don't really do an audiophile thing, but instead just play music in a way that you can just enjoy and not notice what's happening with the presentation. My speakers are just like the one's for sale, same finish as well. Sometimes a speaker like that is a nice departure from the audiophile speakers which I have (sort of!) and love as well (Vandersteen/Maggie). I also have some old DCM TF 400's that are also the kind of speakers that you can just listen to for shall I say, just the music. I love them all really and that's the beauty of it. If I had the $$$ I'd like to have a pair of the AN's just for comparison, but $16,000 for loudspeakers is not going to happen for me. Thanks again for all the info. Enjoy.
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I guess this means that you won't be building me a pair then..... :D
Just kidding. There are plenty of people that don't like Audio Note or their products. Sometimes I wish I were one of them. (My wallet sure does. :oops:)
Yeah, you're correct, I won't be diving in to building replicas of AN's, which are replicas of Snells, it's all just too confusing for me. :wink:
And don't think I don't like Audio Note UK, very nice gentlemen and their other room driving Cathedral speakers was fabulous. And the AN-E's sounded lovely, just my personal preference at that price point goes elsewhere. I have some disagreements on things that aren't pertinent here, but their products sound very good.
tonyjack, it wasn't Peter Snell that disagreed with Kevin Voecks, he was dead, and that death was the reason Kevin was brought in. Dr. William Osgood was Peter's partner/associate and took over the company at that point, it was he who brought in Kevin as chief designer. Kevin took the line far away from Peter Snell's original ideas, most notably with the Type A, and it was the original Snell customer base that rebelled. I think he was bringing the line into the 21st century, however I'm a heretic. Osgood was not a strong presence and mostly grimaced on the sidelines as Snell became a home theater line under Kevin's direction. The sale of the company ended both of their terms of service at Snell.
I agree Types E thru K and J, a lesser extent Type D's, are middle of the road everyman speakers that still wear very nicely even today. However Types A, B, B Minor, and early C are still some of the finest speakers around bringing relatively high prices on the used market.
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I think that tony was referring to Peter Qvotrup......
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Yes that's right,Quietearth. I couldn't remember his last name. He's made it clear in some forums on AA about how he feels about the Snell sound/design after Peter Snell passed and Voecks took over.I would imagine it's only natural for who ever is in charge to put his/her own stamp on things, which is what Voecks did, like it or not. I remember talking to a Snell worker when inquiring about new drivers for my E/III's and he said that those speakers were the favorite's with the workers at the factory. This was at the time they were going to move to Binghamton NY and be part of the McIntosh family. I think it was D&M Holdings? Is Snell still in business? I lost track of them after that deal fell through.
I never heard the Snell A model, but have been told my more than a few, that they can still compete with many of today's top designs.
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I think that tony was referring to Peter Qvotrup......
I see said the blind man as he fell in the ditch. Regardless, we all agree a big disconnect after Mr. Snell passed.
I remember talking to a Snell worker when inquiring about new drivers for my E/III's and he said that those speakers were the favorite's with the workers at the factory. This was at the time they were going to move to Binghamton NY and be part of the McIntosh family. I think it was D&M Holdings? Is Snell still in business? I lost track of them after that deal fell through.
Ha! Maybe there's only one guy manning the phones, but the gentleman at Snell said the same thing to me when I ordered a new woofer, although in reference to the Series IV. From memory here, but I think he said he worked HiFi retail before going to Snell and sold a zillion Type E's, which were his favorite design, being the best compromise of price and performance.
Snell Acoustic still has a website and lists one retail dealer within 50 miles of myself and 3 more installer type outlets. But when I called the dealer he clearly stated they were out of business and no new models were available, but parts could still be ordered. He seemed quite desperate to sell the one remaining used Snell Illusion A7 he had on the floor, retailed for $50k and only $18k now, such a deal.
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@Letitroll98
Yeah, I bought a whole bunch of stereo stuff for $200 including the Snells. I didn't realize they were worth so much and I could use the extra cash.
They are for sale if anyone is interested.
Check out the link below:
http://www.snell.no/forum/index.php/topic,2180.0.html
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hello, can anyone give me some buying advice on the Snell e3's. thx
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I would suggest reading the thread, which has a plethora of advice and information, then if you have any specific questions ask them.
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I would put in a good word for Type E/II - they are quite similar to the E/III, and I believe Peter Snell designed the E/II. Best mod: a bundle of plastic drinking straws cut to the same length as the port - tape around the bundle, and leave a tab of tape sticking out, so you can pull them out, if need be. This flattens the peak of the bass the port contributes, and extends it lower a few hertz, too.
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I bought a new pair of Snell E111's back in the day. A good speaker that I enjoyed for years but their biggest limitation is that they don't do the soundstaging thing ( especially depth.) it depends if this is important to you or not. I bought a new pair of PSB Stratus Silver i's in 2001 and they were (are) significantly better in every way ( more transparent and disappear as sound sources.)
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The Series IV does a much better job of soundstaging than the previous series. Kevin redesigned the cabinet to present a much smaller front baffle looking like other modern designes.