[woodnaudio]

I'm setting up a room as a semi-dedicated audio listening room. Currently I'm planning on doing some basic treatment:

- Absorbers at first reflection points (side walls, front and back walls, cloud on the ceiling)
- Bass traps in the front corners

Is this the sort of treatment plan for which taking room measurements as I put treatment in would be advisable? Or is it basic / no-brainer enough that I could just proceed and trust my ears?

[Mike-48]

My experience has been that the most informative measurements in this are reverb time vs frequency and related graphs (there are many). You could even run an ASC MATT analysis (Google it) to see how that changes.

Treatment does not affect measurable FR very much, but it can kill irritating reflections, reduce bass hangover, and in doing so, increase clarity and musicality considerably.

[Big Red Machine]

Ringing, slap echo, things like that can be tamed and as Mike offered, you will get an overall improvement in the clarity of sound. Don't overlook diffusion as well.

[woodnaudio]

Thanks Mike, Red -

The room is 12x12ish and I’m just getting started.  Would the metrics mentioned tend to guide one in placement or selection of treatment? Or at low budgets and starting out, is it just a no brainer to treat first reflection points?

Asked another way... could I go wrong with treating first reflections and front corner bass trapping?

[TJHUB]

OP:

I have spent years tweaking and measuring my room(s).  In the end, measurements never helped me over my ears.  Measurements don't show imaging, sound stage depth of width, clarity, or emotion.  My ears hear it.  When you find the right mix of speaker placement, listening position, and treatments, your ears will hear it too.   Measurements are just a tool that's really not that effective or easy to use short of measuring bass frequencies.  As always, YMMV.

Also, conventional treatment placement is not best for all rooms, and setups.  It's really just the best place to start.  I found the treating the corners of the room behind the speakers, or just the wall directly behind the speakers, then the first reflection points is step one, but add them one at a time while listening for changes in sound.  Add other treatments carefully.  Many times they don't really improve much of anything.

My next treatment is to try an acoustic cloud.  I've never tried one, so it's purely experimental.  My room sounds fantastic to me now, but maybe there's something there to gain.

[youngho]

I'm setting up a room as a semi-dedicated audio listening room. Currently I'm planning on doing some basic treatment:

- Absorbers at first reflection points (side walls, front and back walls, cloud on the ceiling)
- Bass traps in the front corners

Is this the sort of treatment plan for which taking room measurements as I put treatment in would be advisable? Or is it basic / no-brainer enough that I could just proceed and trust my ears?

Conventional wisdom would support your plan. If interested in measurements, you might take a look at http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/20111013acoustic-measurement-standards-for-stereo-listening-rooms-pu-html/

[bpape]

Bass control - yes.

Cloud - maybe. Depends on what problems are there, what the room height is, the type of speaker, etc.

Side wall absorbers - maybe.  If you have SBIR issues, then yes.  If not, then diffusion could be a better option.

Don't forget the wall behind you pending the distance you are from it, where you sit in relation to the length, etc.  Many nasty nulls (or general buildup if you are sitting close) can come from this area that is often ignored.

[Big Red Machine]

Bass control - yes.

Cloud - maybe. Depends on what problems are there, what the room height is, the type of speaker, etc.

Side wall absorbers - maybe.  If you have SBIR issues, then yes.  If not, then diffusion could be a better option.

Don't forget the wall behind you pending the distance you are from it, where you sit in relation to the length, etc.  Many nasty nulls (or general buildup if you are sitting close) can come from this area that is often ignored.

Bryan and Glenn were more help to me, teaching me, years ago, and I have not forgotten their sage advice which has served me well for 13+ years now. 62%!

[JLM]

Suggest reading Floyd Toole's "Sound Reproduction" 3rd edition to learn how speakers behave in-room.  Room "mistakes": size (bigger is better) and shape (avoid simple multiples of primary room dimensions) can't be easily fixed with treatment or DSP room correction.  The first step is to reduce bass peaks/dips via use of 3 or 4 subs located near the corners, again read Toole.  Then measure.  In my 8ft x 13ft x 21ft (ideally proportioned) room with 3 subs and mid-field setup had 15 dB peaks at 54 and 83 Hz, exactly at the frequencies you'd predict based on those room length/width dimensions.  Ended up eventually adding ten GIK 244 panels, 4 across the front, 2 on each side, and 2 on the back walls which knocked down the peaks by half.  Tried Dirac but didn't care for the results. 

Also suggest using controlled directivity speakers to reduce room interaction such as Amphion; JBL 305, 306, 308, 705P, or 708P; Genelec; Dutch & Dutch 8C; or Kii Audio Three. 

[Tyson]

JLM,
Those Dutch & Dutch 8c speakers look VERY interesting!

[poseidonsvoice]

JLM,
Those Dutch & Dutch 8c speakers look VERY interesting!

They are  :

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dutch-dutch-8c-active-loudspeaker-system

https://www.stereophile.com/content/dutch-dutch-8c-active-loudspeaker-system-measurements

Dr. Geddes was consulted in the development...

But they are the antithesis of “AudioCircle”. No tweaking needed!

Best,
Anand.

[Speedskater]

When doing tests like this, it's important that the microphone is in the exact same position for all the tests. This goes for all objects near the mic, including humans.

[ricmon]

I agree with TJHUB and bpape.  I have treated the conners on the back wall and addressed the first refection point on just one of my side walls.  Don't over think it and use your ears.

Ric

[Mike-48]

The room is quite square? I know some who find they get better sound in square rooms by setting up the audio system on the diagonal. Of course, that's not always practical, depending on how else the room is used.

[woodnaudio]

The room is quite square? I know some who find they get better sound in square rooms by setting up the audio system on the diagonal. Of course, that's not always practical, depending on how else the room is used.

Yes, somewhat square. Approximately 12’ x 12’8” x 7’ (3.7m x 3.9m x 2.1m). I’ve heard about setting the room up on the diagonal. Unfortunately, do to the other usage of the room, that’s not really a practical setup.

So far, untreated, I’m pretty happy with the tone of the system.... but soundstage leaves a bit to be desired. It sound like there are three distinct stages... center left right... rather than one cohesive stage.

[JLM]

Square rooms will double up the bass echo at a single frequency.  The ancient Greeks used 5:8 ratios for their stone temples (what they called the "Golden Ratio") which happens to be one of the Fibonacci ratios to reduce bass echo - far less than ideal.  Now western eyes/ears perceive these ratios as being pleasing. 

Have tried the diagonal setup in rectangular rooms, helped to reduce first reflections as "side" wall reflections barely exist, but bass behaves as waves, so orientation doesn't affect bass performance.  Such a small square room leaves few options.  Can you pick a different room?  Or line two adjoining sides with absorption?  Again suggest reading Toole. 

Using ears alone can be very misleading as we acclimate so easily.  The question boils down to what you're striving for: high-fidelity or a pleasing/entertaining experience.  Audio is a individual pursuit, so each must decide for oneself what direction to follow.  But note that high-fidelity has a single answer, while personal tastes have no standard. 

[TJHUB]

Yes, somewhat square. Approximately 12’ x 12’8” x 7’ (3.7m x 3.9m x 2.1m). I’ve heard about setting the room up on the diagonal. Unfortunately, do to the other usage of the room, that’s not really a practical setup.

So far, untreated, I’m pretty happy with the tone of the system.... but soundstage leaves a bit to be desired. It sound like there are three distinct stages... center left right... rather than one cohesive stage.

What speakers are you running, and where is your listening position relative to the side walls and wall behind the listening position?

[Bob Stark]

Woodn,

What you describe sounds like your speakers are at least a little bit too far apart.  Try moving them a bit closer like an inch at a time and stop when you hit the spot where the soundstage is more real and there is none, or much less of this, going on.  Mark that spot with tape and try to go a little further in to hear what happens.  Then, go the other way again to make sure you've done the best with this that you can.  If it gets worse in both directions, your marked placement would be where the speakers are at their best IN YOUR ROOM.  You can do the same thing front to back to get the bass--treble balance just right.  You will probably have to compromise some to also keep your best soundstage.

If your system is not too big and a PITA to move around, you should at least try the diagonal placement for a couple hours and see what this does for your sound.  You can always put it back right where you had it.  It is is a big hassle just do the top paragraph and use your ears.

Bob

[woodnaudio]

What speakers are you running, and where is your listening position relative to the side walls and wall behind the listening position?

Currently running Linn Ninkas, but these are temporary. I have a pair of Omega Junior 8 XRS with Alnico drivers coming soon. They are setup along the slightly longer wall. Listening position is centered and approx 3 feet from the rear wall (a pair of French doors).

The speakers are set approximately 2ft from the side walls and 3-4 feet from the rear wall. This seemed to best balance bass-treble.

[woodnaudio]

Have tried the diagonal setup in rectangular rooms, helped to reduce first reflections as "side" wall reflections barely exist, but bass behaves as waves, so orientation doesn't affect bass performance.  Such a small square room leaves few options.  Can you pick a different room?  Or line two adjoining sides with absorption?  Again suggest reading Toole. 

Using ears alone can be very misleading as we acclimate so easily.  The question boils down to what you're striving for: high-fidelity or a pleasing/entertaining experience.  Audio is a individual pursuit, so each must decide for oneself what direction to follow.  But note that high-fidelity has a single answer, while personal tastes have no standard.

Changing rooms is tough, but treatment is definitely in the cards. I’ll try and get my hands on Toole’s book.

The answer to your second question is...both? For me, pleasing and entertaining is the most important. I see room and system setup as a way to get there.

Back when I was shopping for my very first system, I heard a system/room that really mad an impression which stuck. That system sounded so real and three dimensional... I guess I’m chasing a taste of that, but keep getting distracted listening to music