[CountryBoy]

This is my first post on AudioCircle. My system is not vintage but aged. I acquired most of my current setup in 1998: Basis Audio TT, Electrocampaniet ECP phono stage, Macintosh 2200/2102 amplification, and Platinum Reference 1 (granite-encased) speakers. My digital sources are newer Schitt Audio units. I haven't changed anything in the analog side for years because I found the sound greatly enjoyable.

However, since COVID enabled me to shift to working almost fully remote, I began listening 6-8 hours per day. This immersion led me to  wonder if the soundstage and imaging could be improved.

You may have heard of FOMO - Fear of Missing Out. In my case, it may be better said that I have FOTO - Fear of Trying Out. Partially due to disrupting what is a pleasing system, but more so to deal with all the shipping hassles and cost since I live on a farm in the mountains.

Whenever I ask an audiophile what might be the first change I should make, the answer is always speakers. Lately, I have become very interested in the Spatial Audio X4 Ultra after reading reviews of the earlier products and seeing the YouTube videos espousing the boost in presence and detail. However, I was not one to visit audio shows in the past, so I don't have a first-hand experience. The closest show is the Capital Audio Fest next November. Apparently, I just missed being able to listen to SA speakers at Linear Tube Audio who used to demo their equipment with Spatial Audio at stores and used to have a set in their Maryland showroom.

I also know that a showroom sound doesn't equate to how the speakers will sound in my room. Also, Clayton offers a very accommodating 45-day trial period. However, at the current shipping rates, the risk is about $1,000 if I decide open baffles don't improve enough on my current speakers.

What advice might those much more experienced in equipment swapping provide me? Is it possible through this or other audio forums to find someone who might be willing to let me come listen to their system? I look forward to reading your replies.

[Early B.]

First, there's no risk in upgrading. You're guaranteed to get better sound than what you currently have. Be forewarned that you MUST be prepared to change out your entire system. If you're looking at Spatial Audio X4 Ultra speakers, then your components should be on the same level. That means flushing the Schiit down the toilet, for instance.

Having said that, you're gonna get subsequent advice that will be all over the map and none of our opinions will be very useful. Just buy those Spatials and keep flipping gear until you have what you want.     

[Rusty Jefferson]

There are few types of speakers that can provide a good soundstage with precise imaging like small 2 way speakers that are well designed.  Perhaps your speakers are an issue or perhaps something is hampering their performance. You would (generally speaking) want them to be set up following the Cardas rule of thirds technique. If say, they are pinned up against the front wall or side wall(s) they aren't going to produce a big soundstage, and neither will X4s or any other speaker. Can you provide a picture of your setup?

Also, using a pair (or more) of subwoofers with stand mount 2 way speakers can greatly improve the soundstage image.

[Mr. Big]

The Spatial speakers are very good. You don't need to change all your gear, Schitt gear as long as the amp has some power and current will drive the Spatial. Schitt gear is solid and well designed and affordable, their top-of-the-line power amps are killer good.

Good speaker cables and interconnects and power cords would be a good investment but you don't have to spend crazy money, analysis plus black mesh speaker cables work very well with the Spatials and matching interconnects. Look for some used PS Audio Power Cords, the older ones for amps are quite good for the signature line and plus lines for front-end gear.  Then be able to allow them to burn in from use and then start playing with them so you educate yourself on how the sound changes as you move them, closer to each other depending on the size of your room lastly toe-in is very important. We can give you advice from hands-on use but your room is not our room so you will have to work with them, like any other speaker you might purchase.

Lot's of solid info on this site and all say one thing in agreement they need time of use to settle into their final sound.

[toocool4]

Before you start shelling out money, go through your setup. Setup is key.

[CountryBoy]

@Early B. Thanks much for the sensible advice. I don't much listen to "that Schitt" so I'm less concerned with it, but your point is likely equally valid as it relates to the analog components. Recently, a dealer that I had contacted about speaker demos suggested that I start with the weakest link in my chain which he saw as my Hana ML cartridge (recommending an upgrade to Soundsmith Sussurro). However, to your point, that upgrade would also require upgrading the phono stage. I did try out two of those that I could get from the local Crutchfield store but returned them as I did not hear a noticeable improvement (with my Hana) over the ECP. I'm still contemplating whether upgrading both cartridge and phono stage is the next step to take, perhaps moving to a Luxman EQ-500.

@Rusty your counsel also is quite valuable. I certainly wouldn't suggest my soundstage is poor, actually I find the imaging and depth to provide the "in the room" sensation when playing original issues or quality re-issues that I've read others rave about. I was formerly a drummer and find the Platinum Reference speakers to accurately present the sound of cymbals, tam and bass drums, maybe because the speaker designer was a bassist. If I have concerns, it is with the height and perhaps breadth of the stage, since others seem to imply one can hear "outside the speakers" while my soundstage is constrained within both in terms of height and width. I couldn't find a way to take a good picture of the room. My speakers are out 6' from the back wall in a 15 1/2' x 23' room with a vaunted ceiling that rises from 10 to 15' -- filled bookshelves line the side walls up to 9 or 10' and on the rear wall (behind the speakers) which I hope are contributing acoustic benefits since adding treatments on the walls is nearly impossible.

@Mr. Big the Schitt I use (can't seem to help myself  , is the DAC and headphone amp. The amplification is a Macintosh tube  amplifier 150 wpc with a Macintosh tube preamp. I've had some audiophile friends say they aren't "real Macs" because they were manufactured in the 1990s, but they sound pretty good to my ears. I did once try out mono blocks from Van Alstine when my amp needed a minor repair and did not find they came close to that Mac sound that I've loved for many years. My interconnects and speaker cables are Tara Labs Air and I upgraded the power cords awhile back but don't recall the manufacturer.

@toocool4 I very much appreciate your advice to take small steps before unloading a boatload of coin. Besides the usual TT setup steps (that I think I'm doing right at least as far as Michael Fremer suggests), what other setup changes might you recommend?

I cannot thank you all enough for the amazing advice. I am soo glad I decided to show my ignorance and ask for help!

[Delta77]

Hope you don't mind me chiming in.

When I first heard of "Affordable Higher End Audio", about 5-6 years ago, I was just overwhelmed with what was out there and some of the astronomical prices. After some time invested in research I realized some of this stuff is attainable.

Being kind of new I would spend Lots of time looking at members systems on this site (and other sites).
The Members that I admired the most were the ones with tube amps. These guys "seemed" to have the most experience, from what I could tell. So I felt as if these guys have already been through the gauntlet, let me just follow the leader.

I would try to find a system that you admire and try to mimic it (for the most part).
Also try to pay attention to the room size and speakers location to front and side walls.

I would agree the system is the sum of All it's Parts.
The whole system pretty much needs to be on the same level before you will realize just how each piece contributes to the Whole.

Some systems are for off access listening and some are more for in the sweet spot listening (soundstage).
My system sounds pretty good off access but nothing special until you sit in the sweet spot , and then you begin to understand what the reviewers are talking about.

Please feel free to check out my system.

Good luck in your venture to a "better" sound system.

 
 

[CountryBoy]

@Delta77 I absolutely agree that the vicarious path has numerous benefits. It was indeed wandering this yellow brick road that raised my interest in exploring options for improving my audio system. I am very impressed by your system choices. Interestingly, they have much in common with the configuration used by a jazz enthusiast that I've recently discovered on a Hoffman forum (am I allowed to reference other audio sites?).

My entire analog system was recommended to me by a trusted and dear friend and audio store owner in Colorado who passed away many years ago. My rudderless ship has continued to carry me forward without veering off course until recently -- and perhaps I should simply stay the course and, continuing the mix metaphors, understand that there is "no place like home."

Thanks again to all for such thought-provoking and valuable advice!

[RonN5]

Another thought would be to try some pre owned Spatials that can get you very close to the sound of the Ultras and if you like the sound, order the Ultras and sell the preowned.

I saw these just listed at a ridiculously low price. Sign up with Pirateship and you can UPS them to your home fully insured for less than $500….

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649970368-spatial-audio-m3-sapphire/

And if you do resell, since you bought them so low, you might only be out the shipping cost.

The selling price is attractive and the speakers themselves are outstanding.

Good Luck

[toocool4]

CountryBoy If you think your turntable is setup correctly, look at your speaker setup. You say you are missing height with the sound, you can get the height by changing your speaker rake angle. Try tilting the speakers up a few degrees, experiment with the rake angle and go with what sounds best to your ears.

Continue to move your speakers around and see what sounds best to you, you say the speakers are 6 feet away from front wall how far are they from the side walls? Experiment is Key here, you may find you don't need an upgrade to get to the sound you want.

[jpm]

Many musicians don't have just a single instrument (think guitar collections) so why not build a second system?  If you don't need to sell your existing system to fund new purchases then don't.

It might be easier to try out new gear knowing that you're not sacrificing a system that you know intimately and clearly have a bond with. Build on RonN5's suggestion and see what kind of a system you can put together, while still having your old one as a reference.

[CountryBoy]

@toocool I was not aware of the rake angle concept but will begin researching and experimenting with that. The lead shot filled stands have adjustable feet that will permit some modification. I have also thought of investing in the Gaia's if they are compatible with the holes in the base.

Though the stands are heavy, I can move the speakers around a bit. That's how I settled on the current placement. They are 3 feet from the side walls. I have played with toe-in as well. The current setup seemed best for the speaker to disappear in regards to sound between them with precise centering of the focal instrument or singer. I have two primary seats in this room (one a listening chair and the other my desk chair directly behind the listening chair). This speaker positioning has the same enjoyable sound at both locations -- though maybe that is part of my issue on the height and width of the stage.

@jpm I am planning to keep my existing speakers, perhaps rotating them to the general-listening family room where I currently use the "non-reference quality" speakers from the same manufacturer that I would give to my son. I had not thought of building out a full system elsewhere. I do have a home theater that might serve that purpose, though it has a system that is optimized for movies (JBL speakers and 9.1 solid state amplification). You have raised an intriguing proposition! Thank you for broadening my horizon.

The main issue I notice is with drums (maybe my bias/interest or a mastering issue). Far too often the drums are not "in place" within the soundstage but instead are stretched unnaturally across the soundstage - as though the drummer had 10 foot arms! In the worst recordings, the drums are on top of the focal instrument or voice (no depth -- especially on CD/streamed or digitally mastered LPs). Or the drums are stuck in the far right of the stage which is where I especially notice the end of the soundstage coinciding with the speaker, and unnatural for a live setting.

With your advice, I can hopefully free the instruments to be more life-size rather then seeming like they were in one of the "Honey I Shrunk the Kids" movies. Thank you very much for the pointers!

[toocool4]

I have never used the Gaia’s, but I hear good things about them. I use the Symposium Svelte Shelf and Rollerblocks under my speaker stands, wow I will never go back to not having them under my speakers again. The difference they made to the sound of the speakers is amazing.



Checkout the link below.
https://www.symposiumusa.com/svelte.html

[Mr. Big]

@Early B. Thanks much for the sensible advice. I don't much listen to "that Schitt" so I'm less concerned with it, but your point is likely equally valid as it relates to the analog components. Recently, a dealer that I had contacted about speaker demos suggested that I start with the weakest link in my chain which he saw as my Hana ML cartridge (recommending an upgrade to Soundsmith Sussurro). However, to your point, that upgrade would also require upgrading the phono stage. I did try out two of those that I could get from the local Crutchfield store but returned them as I did not hear a noticeable improvement (with my Hana) over the ECP. I'm still contemplating whether upgrading both cartridge and phono stage is the next step to take, perhaps moving to a Luxman EQ-500.

@Rusty your counsel also is quite valuable. I certainly wouldn't suggest my soundstage is poor, actually I find the imaging and depth to provide the "in the room" sensation when playing original issues or quality re-issues that I've read others rave about. I was formerly a drummer and find the Platinum Reference speakers to accurately present the sound of cymbals, tam and bass drums, maybe because the speaker designer was a bassist. If I have concerns, it is with the height and perhaps breadth of the stage, since others seem to imply one can hear "outside the speakers" while my soundstage is constrained within both in terms of height and width. I couldn't find a way to take a good picture of the room. My speakers are out 6' from the back wall in a 15 1/2' x 23' room with a vaunted ceiling that rises from 10 to 15' -- filled bookshelves line the side walls up to 9 or 10' and on the rear wall (behind the speakers) which I hope are contributing acoustic benefits since adding treatments on the walls is nearly impossible.

@Mr. Big the Schitt I use (can't seem to help myself  , is the DAC and headphone amp. The amplification is a Macintosh tube  amplifier 150 wpc with a Macintosh tube preamp. I've had some audiophile friends say they aren't "real Macs" because they were manufactured in the 1990s, but they sound pretty good to my ears. I did once try out mono blocks from Van Alstine when my amp needed a minor repair and did not find they came close to that Mac sound that I've loved for many years. My interconnects and speaker cables are Tara Labs Air and I upgraded the power cords awhile back but don't recall the manufacturer.

@toocool4 I very much appreciate your advice to take small steps before unloading a boatload of coin. Besides the usual TT setup steps (that I think I'm doing right at least as far as Michael Fremer suggests), what other setup changes might you recommend?

I cannot thank you all enough for the amazing advice. I am soo glad I decided to show my ignorance and ask for help!

I owned McIntosh from the 90's killer stuff. The dealer's job is to always suggest upgrades, It starts with the source so start there, preamp is traffic control, I like staying the same brand as the amp unless you have a dealer where you can take other brands home and try them with mix and match, but in my 40 years staying with the same brand makes the synergy dead on without wasting a lot of money trying to find the best mix and match. In my current room and set up the Mark Levinson gear is sweet, is it better than McIntosh no, because they are both good, but the ML with my speakers brings the sound home as in the room. So that is that. My room works well with the ML.

[Rusty Jefferson]

@CountryBoy, are you located in the DMV?  There are some good systems available to listen to around here including at least one pair of X5 we might be able to get you an audition to.

[Rocket]

Hi,

The biggest improvement will always be the speakers so you might want to consider Rusty's offer to listen to a pair of spatial speakers.

Cheers Rod

[Letitroll98]

It seems as if imaging is your main complaint with the system.  Those speakers should be imaging champs, so I would look to fix that before buying anything new.   if I remember correctly Phil Jones had the tweeters offset on the baffle, do you have the tweeters on the inside or outside of the speakers?   Regardless, try flipping them.  Try moving the listening chair closer.  And I would definitely measure the room, calibrated mics aren't that much and there's plenty of free software.  The room and speaker placement seem fine, but while bookshelves are good, they aren't as universally perfect as one might think.  You have a great system now, and while new speakers might be just the ticket, I would find out what you have now before throwing new equipment at it.  Oh, and welcome aboard, this is the best audio site on the net.

[CountryBoy]

@toolcool thanks much for the link. The Symposium looks intriguing.

@Rusty I am located in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley south of Luray Caverns if you know those. If by DMV, you meant DC, MD, VA then yes! I would love the opportunity to listen to a pair of X5's. I run a research center in Largo, MD so get to the DC area often. I also travel periodically and mostly drive when within 10 hours driving distance. Very happy to make a side trip for an opportunity to hear the Spatials.

@Ron I am not disinclined to purchase used. Thanks for the link. Perhaps I am mistaken, but it appeared from the reviews I read that the X4 and X5 made notable improvements over the Sapphires which also seem to be outstanding speakers.

@Mr Big from what I have seen the Mac phono stages lack the versatility to handle the cartridges I've been considering, which is why if I upgrade I was tending towards the Luxman or a Modwright. I have a friend with ML gear who also raves about it.

@Letitroll thanks for your recommendation. With great advice I've received from all of you I am encouraged to tinker some more with the Platinums which are a joy to listen to. The tweeters on mine are on the inside of the speaker with a rear baffle. They have a faux marble exterior that I think I mistakenly referred to as granite. What software would you recommend for the room measurement -- I have seen some reference to these but hadn't investigated them further. Below is a pic -- not the best.



At one point I was wondering if buying a used Mac 2102 (for a matched pair) to switch to a monoblock configuration might boost the dimensionality of the sound. Any feedback on that idea that others might like to share?

Thanks again to all who have given me such a warm welcome to this community. You all have provided awesome advice for which I am very grateful.

[Rusty Jefferson]

.... I am not sure what you meant by DMV....

Sorry, thought you might be local. D=D.C., M=Maryland (inner suburbs), V= Virginia (inner suburbs)

[CountryBoy]

Sorry, thought you might be local. D=D.C., M=Maryland (inner suburbs), V= Virginia (inner suburbs)

Ha! We must have been writing at the same time... I edited my post above after sufficient coffee woke up my 62-year-old brain.