AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Audio by Van Alstine => Topic started by: 1PsychProf on 21 Mar 2005, 05:25 pm
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I'm new over here on AC from the Asylum. I just sent my T7 pre-amp back to AVA as I was having weird breathing from my woofer, which, I am told, is being caused by fluctuating DC voltage from the pre-amp. Does anyone know if AVA is fairly quick with their repairs and return of products?
Also, I noticed that when I packed up my unit, the T7 has a non-detachable power cord. That is one of the aspects of my system that I have neglected, and as such was about to order several of the Chris VH Flavor cords. Does anyone know why AVA did not make their cords interchangeable? I suppose they consider after-market cords a waste? Has anyone tried any other PC's on their AVA preamps? Just curious!
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I'm new over here on AC from the Asylum. I just sent my T7 pre-amp back to AVA as I was having weird breathing from my woofer, which, I am told, is being caused by fluctuating DC voltage from the pre-amp. Does anyone know if AVA is fairly quick with their repairs and return of products?
In my experience, they've been quite fast most of the time. However, they've just got so many resources there and I've also seen them get pretty backed-up. So I'd say they're fast, but your wait will depend upon how many people are ahead of you. :)
Also, I noticed that when I packed up my unit, the T7 has a non-detachable power cord. That is one of the aspects of my system that I have neglected, and as such was about to order several of the Chris VH Flavor cords. ...
Skip the fancy replacement power cord and buy some CDs or LPs with the money you save. You'll enjoy the music far more than some power cord.
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I do not want to start a war over power cords, because even if there IS a sonic improvement- it would be subtle, IMHO.
That said, a hardwired cord will ALWAYS be a better CONNECTION than a push on IEC connector. ALWAYS. So....
maybe while the amp is in the shop, Frank would hardwire your cord into the equipment for you?
WEEZ
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I do not want to start a war over power cords, because even if there IS a sonic improvement- it would be subtle, IMHO.
That said, a hardwired cord will ALWAYS be a better CONNECTION than a push on IEC connector. ALWAYS. So....
maybe while the amp is in the shop, Frank would hardwire your cord into the equipment for you?
WEEZ
It already is. AVA gear has hard-wired AC cords.
I'm skeptical that the difference between a socketed cord and hard-wired cord is audible or meaningful. Maybe I should get busy and solder up all the connections in my computer so it will work better. Maybe I can have that Boulder guy toss in some random wonderful parts while I'm at it. :)
Maybe I shouldn't make fun of other people's beliefs, but a power cord is a power cord. It has to be of a certain minimum gauge for the load it will be expected to carry (length also affects this), it has to conform to the standards of the country it will be used in, and you hope it's of good enough quality that it will be safe to use. Other than that, there's not much mystery involved. The expected operating environment (indoors/outdoors, stationary or mobile, temperature extremes, presence of moisture or solvents, etc.) can also govern the choice of cable, but home audio systems won't likely see this sort of thing.
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I agree about your theory on power cords. You apparantly misread my point. I think I said that the "improvements" (meaning-if any) would be subtle (meaning an aftermarket cord).
And after almost 30 years in the electric industry- I stand by my statement that a hardwired connection is always better than a push-on or mechanical connection. Period.
WEEZ
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I listened to the T7 for some time and got very use to its sound. I then cut off the cord and put on an IEC. I rolled a Harmonic Tech AC-10 and an AC-11 as well as a Virtual Dynamic Power-3. The difference in sound was dramatic and highly significant. Sorry if you don’t believe so, my ears tell me so and I trust them to anything else.
I won’t say better or worse, that’s a matter of opinion. But I will say that the bass response was deeper (more extended) and fuller with the Harmonic Tech AC-10, no questioning about it. It also has a somewhat wider soundstage and is more transparent.
The Harmonic Tech AC-11 is also very good and very similar, it’s also cheaper. I would consider having a cord permanently installed into the unit properly, I’m not sure I want to commit the AC-10 to it since I like it on my CD Player and its not cheap. However, I may have the AC-11 installed.
The stock cord definitely (hard wired) sounds thinner in the bass and mid-bass and has a smaller soundstage. It’s obvious!! I would NOT put the stock cord back on my T7, I’d sell it first and buy something else. Many preamps and amps today don’t even come with a power cord because the impact on its sound is so dramatic and significant and dependent on personal taste, the manufacturer doesn’t bother even trying to pick one for you.
And power conditions degrade sound quality!! I’ve tried many, some expensive and some cheap and they all suck!
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Would you consider making a detachable power cord an option on new power amps & preamps?
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I agree about your theory on power cords. You apparantly misread my point. I think I said that the "improvements" (meaning-if any) would be subtle (meaning an aftermarket cord).
And after almost 30 years in the electric industry- I stand by my statement that a hardwired connection is always better than a push-on or mechanical connection. Period.
WEEZ
I didn't realize that you were saying "if any" there.
If we're looking at a piece of wire versus a piece of wire with a set of connectors in the middle, I'd agree that the plain wire is better as a general rule.
(If we're talking soldered versus mechanical connection, I might disagree.)
But I do have trouble with the idea that a detachable power cord will be inferior to a hardwired one in typical audio equipment. Or that it will be possible to discern any difference with properly designed equipment (like AVA).
So, yes, a straight wire is better than a wire with connectors in the middle, but I submit that the difference may be meaningless in many cases.
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I must say that this "Power cord" replacement discussion in regards to AVA equipment has been a thought in my mind also. I have know about Frank and his philosophie andhighly respect his opinion for many years and own his wonderfull equipment that will be with me for many years to come.
Many of us have been down the speaker wire road and most seem to agree that the heavier gauge the better, which I, many years ago have become a believer that it is true. If you compare it to a road, try having a lot of traffic go down an alley vs the same amount of traffic go down a 4 lane freeway.
I do believe a heavier power cord can help with the amplifier more than the preamplifier due to the power requirments.
I certainly will not spend the ridiculous amount of money a lot of these cable companies are asking for their fancy dancy cables. There is definitly a point of no return, but I will in the near future, just for fun replace my original small gauge cords to a heavier cords, starting with the amp and post my results.
I must say one more thing, in regards to power conditionors. I had a hard time believing in them also until a very long time audio friend of mine who got me started in this audio enjoyment hobby moved on to installing huge home theater systems in the hundreds of thousands of dollars all over the world and said to me over and over that I must get a Richard Gray Power Supply 400 line conditionor. I do live in the heart of the city and believe that the power coming into my home is dirty. I finally broke down and got one and I could not believe what a difference it made to the overall sound. Everything seemed to open up and breath. I was so impressed, I bought another one.
I am amazed that thier is no discusion about RGPS on this forum. In my opinion, they are worth every penny.
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Many of us have been down the speaker wire road and most seem to agree that the heavier gauge the better, which I, many years ago have become a believer that it is true. If you compare it to a road, try having a lot of traffic go down an alley vs the same amount of traffic go down a 4 lane freeway.
I do believe a heavier power cord can help with the amplifier more than the preamplifier due to the power requirments.
My feeling is that a _heavy enough_ gauge is what's needed.
I use plain old zip cord and interconnects from Radio Shack. I just haven't seen anything to suggest that all the magic wires are more than snake oil. A friend once brought over several thousand dollars worth of fancy wires and made me try them. After verifying that they weren't going to break the jacks on my equipment, I tried them. I heard no difference, except with some weird unshielded interconnects, and there I heard a difference. They were picking up tons of hum from the fluorescent lights in the next room...
I guess I'm the resident Audio Skeptic. :D
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If we're looking at a piece of wire versus a piece of wire with a set of connectors in the middle, I'd agree that the plain wire is better as a general rule.
But I do have trouble with the idea that a detachable power cord will be inferior to a hardwired one in typical audio equipment.
Unfortunately that logic doesn’t apply. It seems it should but it doesn’t!
If that was the case, then what about all the internal connections, have you ever looked inside your preamp? The power cord wire starts and stops and goes through a fairly horrible; switch and so on. With that logic, it would be best to remove the switch too and the accessory outlets and the darn fuse for that matter.
The issues of a ‘break’ in the cord (powers path) is entirely irrelevant, IMOP! The cord changes the impedance and such on the power supply which is altering the sound of the unit. Current is being broken and traveling through miles and miles of wire to your house and then throughout. It has noting to do with the path of the current; it has to do with the short piece of wire that is directly affecting the transformer and subsequently the circuit within closest to the component. Without getting carried away, you just need to insert the wire (power cord) as close to the transformer as possible and it WILL affect the sound for better or worse. Hopefully for the better but that’s a matter of taste.
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Budyog,
The thickness (gauge) of the cable doesn’t equate to better sound. You may be very disappointed and disillusioned if you take that approach in choosing a power cord or any IC for that matter.
Some of the best sounding power cords I have heard have been 18awg. Mapleshade makes a VERY highly regarded power cord that is very thin (http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/powercord.php).
Very many people LOVE CAT-5 or CAT-6 wire for speaker cables at 24awg (I don’t but I understand what they like about it).
The only way to choose a power cord or any cable is to listen to them. Companies like www.usedcables.com will let you borrow cables for a tiny fee. I’ve listened to literally and without exaggeration tens of thousands of dollars in cables and was able to decide which were to my taste.
The Richard Gray power station is NOT a power conditioner or filter, they are AC chokes. And yes, they sound good. I have tried MANY power conditioners and I currently use a Furman PM-8 Series-2 for my digital gear and preamp. It does very subtle filtering and conditioning and does drop noise floor and adds a nice darkness to the source without affecting soundstage very much. However, I have never heard an amp sound right through a power conditioner. The Richard Gray chokes can be beneficial and again and like always, it’s a matter of taste.
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Skrivis,
Don’t take offence and unfortunately there is no other way of putting this.
If you can’t hear the difference then that doesn’t mean that it’s not making a difference. First, your gear may not be revealing enough to display the difference, this also means your not hearing all that is recorded -or- your ears are not capable of hearing the differences either by defect or lack of caring, could be physical or mental. In your case and others like you, you should likely not bother with Hi-Fi gear, it’s a waste of your hard earned money, just get something that is a good value at BestBuy and be happy, buy more music or whatever.
For the tens of thousands of people like me that CAN hear the subtle differences in everything (it’s more of a curse then anything else, trust me!) audio related, I thank heavens for manufactures like Harmonic Technologies for ‘listening’ and ‘finding’ wire that potentially improves the sound of my music.
I’m sure your friend was disgusted with you when you told him you didn’t hear the difference. Since he ‘got you’ into the hobby, it’s likely you didn’t care much to start off with.
I’m sure your disgusted with me now but that’s the cold truth that most people don’t bother saying.
Companies like Bryston don’t listen either. The believe that it’s all placebo – LOL!! They need a reality check too. Plecebo?! Maybe for some, but certainly not for me and many like me. I’ll be the first to say, that made no discernable difference. I can be honest with myself. Magic jumping beans placed on top of my CDP doesn’t make a difference no matter how many people tell it does, but if you snuck into my listening room and swapped out my cables, I’d notice it!
Ok, now you can scold me and tell me what an ass I am. You won’t be the first and certainly you won’t be the last!
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I agree Boead, it is all a "Matter of Taste". I do believe you don't have to spend the kind of money on power cords/IC's like some people are. there are many other area's to put that money to get bigger improvement's.
It also depends on length to gauge. It can be a very inexspensive change of sound, which make's it fun. From my expierence, my 12 gauge Beldon sound's better than my 16 gauge that I use to use.
Whatever the RGPS is, it makes my system "Sing" like never before! :D
Skrivis wrote My feeling is that a _heavy enough_ gauge is what's needed.
I think that sum's it up! Fun topic :D
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Sheesh!
All I can say is, if I needed a $500 set of cables and a $400 power cord to make my $1300 pre-amp sound better, my wife would insist I get out of this hobby and she'd probably be right :( !
Like I said, I didn't mean to start a war over cords, but it looks like I did a pretty good job :lol: !
Have fun, y'all,
WEEZ
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Weez,
You didn't start the war. This war has been going on and will continue to go on for years to come. Kinda like the middle east! :guns: This is what this is all about.
I look at this the same way. If it cost more to connect the equipment together than the equipment itself, something is wrong and this would really suck!
I will change my cords to a heavier gauge no matter what enyone else say's and like I said, will post my results from my ears only!
Why not, it is not an expensive thing to do! Cheers :beer:
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Look at it like this; cables are no more or less a component to anything else you have. For each component, there are a set number of cables required. The cost of the cables in total should equal the cost of a component.
Example:
Amp: $1500
CDP: $2400
Speakers: $1600
Preamp: $1900
Average cost per component: $1875
Required cabling:
3 power cords, 1 pair of speaker cables, 2 interconnects.
Total cost: $1875 (allowance)
In my case:
Harmonic Tech AC-10: $350 1.5meter
Harmonic Tech AC-11: $200 1.5 meter
Kimber PK10 GOLD: $300 (2.5 meters)
MIT S3 Interconnects: $700 (2 sets, 1 meter each)
Speaker Cables (Litz Type-2 DIY): $150
Total: $1700 *
*note: If I had bought a pair of MIT S3 speaker cables the additional cost would have been $400 ($550 set total) making the grand total $2100. This is over budget based on the cost of a single component (average). However, the models chosen were slightly more expensive because I purchased used at a discount. If I had chosen the Harmonic Tech AC-11 for each component, I would have been right on budget.
See my point?
If you bought a new BMW, would you think it was ridiculous to spend $1200 on a set of tires when you can go to sears and get their house special for $65 each!
Keep it in perspective!
BTW: This is the most activity this site has seen in 6 months!
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>>>If you bought a new BMW, would you think it was ridiculous to spend $1200 on a set of tires when you can go to sears and get their house special for $65 each!
Keep it in perspective!<<<
I would agree with your idea of treating cabling as another expense but I also think that the idea of diminishing returns kicks in when you get close to $100 or $150 for a power cord or interconnect. I don't care how expensive a component is, I just can't see spending much more than this for a cable. I don't know why the money we lay out for a cable, must be "in proportion" to the price of a particular component.
To use your BMS analogy.... it looks like for one power cord and one cable, you are spending nearly 1/3 the cost of each component. If you bought a $60k BMW, would you spend $20k on tires?
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Hey 1PsychProf, quit that! We have not even received your preamp yet to fix. Geeze.
Give us a chance hey.
Frank
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Wow Boead! $1700 worth of CABLES in your system? That's more than you paid for your Arcam cd player, right? Amazing.
So, how you liking that Arcam? Nice, huh?
The equipment will make more difference (read improvement) than the cables and cords. Even the golden eared reviewers have said as much if you read their reviews carefully.
That said, cables and cords can 'fine-tune' the system. I'll conceed that. Some juice up the sound; some relax it; and some ruin it. A good cable will be one you can't hear.
WEEZ
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Hey WEEZ,
I’m LOVING the Arcam. It’s not just a little better then I expected, its a lot better! Its making every CD I own sound good to great. Seriously, I am so impressed with it in my system, I’m sorry I waited so long to take the plunge. I can’t imagine listening without it.
The prices I quoted were less then MSRP and closer to actual retail. I paid less then 50% of that for whatever I have. So my example still stands to reason.
I know people who spend closer to twice the average cost of a single component, I think that is likely too costly but it’s a matter of personal preference.
1PsychProf, unfortunately $100 for a power cable is too cheap for anything worth wile. Since most power cords start at $75, $100 is still on the low(est) side. Forget about the value of the dollar, it’s more closely relevant to where the price starts or its range. Power Cords range from $75 to $1000, discluding the $5 computer cords and $5000 esoteric cords made with alien technology. The average cost for a good quality cord is about $250.
The BMW analogy was NOT meant to point out % of car vs. tire. Certainly a car is a much more complex machine so the tires account for a much smaller part (component) of the entire system (car). A tire to a car is more like a capacitor to a CD Player.
My point was to illustrate how its really unreasonable to use something dramatically inferior, like a pair of cheap’o RatShack IC’s on a HiFi audio component.
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Beam me up, Scotty.... :roll:
Usually quoting Star Treks’ ‘Beam me up, Scotty’ Implies you have had enough and want off this planet. Is this what you are insinuating? If so, I don’t get it. What did I say that makes you want to leave the planet in apparent disgust?
Please share your opinions, because your vague three word reply has little value to any of us.
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Are any of you guys actually interested in the MUSIC for the sake of the music?
Geeze.
The power cord is in series with and just an extension of the primary winding of the power transformer. So disassemble your power transformer, take the 500 feet or so of 20 gauge lousy old copper wire and spice on 6 more feet of amazing wonder cable at one end and tell me that makes a difference. Especially when the 6 feet of wonder cord is connected to miles and miles and miles of plain old lousy wire between your AC outlet and the power company generator, and that generator is wound with plain old lousy wire too --- along with all the transformers, arc supressors, and whatever along the way, all covered with bird droppings.
The problem with our estimeed leader is that he has no thoughts at all, just beliefs. Looks like just beliefs are rearing their ugly head here too. Beliefs are great for starting wars, but not much use for advancement of the science of audio design.
Frank Van Alstine
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I have been wondering how long it will take for Frank to chime in. I am sure you have to waite for a while, let the thread perculate, chucle and finally you can't take it anymore. :bomb:
We know you are right! Frank. :thumb:
Hey Frank, if you really want a chucle, read the thread under "Two Channel" called "I need an Amp". This will raise the hair on the back of your neck.
But is is fun, and changing a power cord or IC's kinda make's one feel a little closer to their system. Like changing the oil in your car to a better quality oil and hoping for the results to be what you are hoping for from what you have read. Even if it don't make a difference, it feels good. :D
My one question is, why do some power tools that draw lots of current come with a heavier power cords? Isn't it true that an amplifier draws more current as the volume goes up?
I am sure it make's no sense to have a power cord any heavier than the 14 or 12 gauge Romex that is in the wall.
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Gosh, according to UPS, you've had it for 3 whole hours at the time of your post! I would expect it to be fixed and on the way back!
Just kidding....take your time on it....but quickly. I was going to ask you about taking off the power cord and putting on a standard PC connector, how much would that cost?
Thanks!
Dave Harris
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Gosh, according to UPS, you've had it for 3 whole hours at the time of your post! I would expect it to be fixed and on the way back!
Just kidding....take your time on it....but quickly. I was going to ask you about taking off the power cord and putting on a standard PC connector, how much would that cost?
Thanks!
Dave Harris
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Unfortunately that logic doesn’t apply. It seems it should but it doesn’t!
If that was the case, then what about all the internal connections, have you ever looked inside your preamp? The power cord wire starts and stops and goes through a fairly horrible; switch and so on. With that logic, it would be best to remove the switch too and the accessory outlets and the darn fuse for that matter.
The issues of a ‘break’ in the cord (powers path) is entirely irrelevant, IMOP! The cord changes the impedanc ...
When I said, "as a general rule," I was speaking about the theoretical best practice. In the real world, the differences are so slight as to be meaningless.
If changing the power cord has as much effect on the power supply as you state, your power supply is broken.
Hmm.... I should have asked... do you place your stereo in the back yard and need 100 foot power cords? I could see there being a difference in this case. :)
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Skrivis,
Don’t take offence and unfortunately there is no other way of putting this.
If you can’t hear the difference then that doesn’t mean that it’s not making a difference. First, your gear may not be revealing enough to display the difference, this also means your not hearing all that is recorded -or- your ears are not capable of hearing the differences either by defect or lack of caring, could be physical or mental. In your case and others like you, you should likely not bother with Hi-Fi gear, ...
If you hear a difference, that doesn't mean there's a difference. :D
My system is quite revealing, thank you very much. For instance, I can quite clearly hear the difference between my FV amp and my OmegaStar amp.
I do know that there are a lot of people that hear differences in wire, bricks, power-conditioning clocks, felt-tip pens, etc. I admit I'm skeptical.
My friend didn't get me into the hobby, I was into hi-fi long before I met him. I started with a mono system (all tube) with a full-range Utah speaker in a bass reflex enclosure. Turntable was a Rek-O-Kut with a Pickering cartridge. I didn't get an FM tuner until later, and had gone stereo by that point. My first solid state equipment was a Harmon-Kardon receiver, and I had EPI 100 speakers since I was limited on space and money. (A paper route can only buy you so much. :)
I'm not mad at you, I think it's kind of funny. And I really do feel that there are more cost-effective ways of improving your listening experience. I'd start off by recommending an FV amp and DAC to go with your preamp. I've known Frank for a long time (20 years?) and he takes a very realistic approach to building equipment. Mithat seems to be a very bright guy, and I'm sure he has added greatly to the principles that Frank and Aado developed over the years. (Although I still don't agree with any of them regarding loudspeakers. LOL)
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But is is fun, and changing a power cord or IC's kinda make's one feel a little closer to their system. Like changing the oil in your car to a better quality oil and hoping for the results to be what you are hoping for from what you have read. Even if it don't make a difference, it feels good.
Sounds like a placebo effect to me. :D
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Are any of you guys actually interested in the MUSIC for the sake of the music?
Geeze.
The power cord is in series with and just an extension of the primary winding of the power transformer. So disassemble your power transformer, take the 500 feet or so of 20 gauge lousy old copper wire and spice on 6 more feet of amazing wonder cable at one end and tell me that makes a difference. Especially when the 6 feet of wonder cord is connected to miles and miles and miles of plain old lousy wire between you ...
Well, you have to be somewhat into the equipment or else you'd just stick with a Bose WaveRadio or something. You can get the music with that too.
I have a friend who's a violinist, and she _does_ listen to a stereo that she got at Circuit City or similar. She gets the music just fine through it. She's heard my system and agrees it's more accurate, but it's still a pale imitation of the real thing. She seems to be able to hear through the fancy table radio to the music, and the equipment is not very important to her.
I'm not as good at doing that.
I enjoy the music very much, but I also enjoy the technology, and I like discussing it. I'm very happy to find equipment that works well and is inexpensive so that I can spend more money on CDs.
I only became a customer after doing quite a bit of research. Jensen's was one of the few places that had a logical approach to things.
You have to apply some logic to life, or else you'll be one of those people wearing a tin-foil hat to keep the aliens out.
There have been a number of comments over the years about how being an audiophile is often orthogonal to being a live music lover. I don't get to go to concerts as much as I would like (and too often you're hearing the sound system anyway - I've been in that biz...), but I get a lot of pleasure out of listening at home.
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Geeze.
The power cord is in series with and just an extension of the primary winding of the power transformer. So disassemble your power transformer, take the 500 feet or so of 20 gauge lousy old copper wire and spice on 6 more feet of amazing wonder cable at one end and tell me that makes a difference. Especially when the 6 feet of wonder cord is connected to miles and miles and miles of plain old lousy wire between you ... "
I would wager that a significant portion of the posters on sites like this and Audioasylum are like me. I never really intended to get into the hobby quite to this extent. My JVC receiver and Bose cubes certainly produced music, but I knew from my days as a kid back in the 70's- spending my part-time job money on what is now considered "classic" equipment - I knew my sound could be so much better. My ultimate goal was simply to have a great sounding system. That's pretty much a hit or miss proposition if you simply select the component of the month from the audio mags and put together the hodgepodge of equipment. I never dreamed I would audition a dozen CDP's, or spend nearly $5k on speakers, or spend a week braiding speaker cable, or "roll" tubes, or coat my room with foam squares - but I have only put forth the work and expense with one thing in mind. To enjoy my music!
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1Psychprof,
Your comment re:"back in the 70's..." and "now considered "classic" equipment...." sure brings back memories. (And reminds me how old I'm getting :( )...
My first real system included the Advent Loudspeakers; AR Turntable w/Shure cartridge; a Pioneer receiver (forget the model but it was 37wpc); and a Teac open reel tape deck. In many ways it was very musical. Accurate?- probably not. Colored?- yeah, probably. But it was musical, that's for sure. First upgrades were Dynaco tubes. And it's been a constant 'upgrade' ever since.
In those days, you used the cables that came with the equipment and bought the heaviest lamp cord you could find for speaker wire at the hardware store.
Fast forward to today. $1000 interconnects and $3500 speaker wire and $500 power cords. Do today's systems sound better? Some do. Did the wires help? Maybe. Does vinyl still sound better? ...mmmm ye-, ah, well... probably :) .
Seriously,I think that cable technology has brought us better shielding and in some cases better signal transfer. And I use aftermarket cables. But to me, the biggest improvements in audio in a generation has been electrical components with better linearity and better signal/noise characteristics. And better speaker technology.
Today's solid state technology certainly produces better sound than my old Pioneer receiver. Today's tube amplifiers sound better than "most" of the older designs. Far more transparent with less noise. So what the hell am I trying to say?
That the equipment is still more important than the wires. The synergy between electronics and speakers will be far more important.
If one matches a less damped tube amp with speakers that are less damped, the sound will be muddy. If one matches a highly damped sounding amp (probably ss) with a highly damped speaker the sound will be thin. 'Restricted' sounding. I think that with more and more 'on-line' manufacturers and less an less availability to audition components for 'synergy' at the limited dealerships (at least in my area) for high-end components; that manufacturers should recommend a 'synergistic' set of criteria for associated components for use with their equipment. Not necessarily brand names- but synergistic characteristics. Example:
" Our amplifiers are highly damped and work best with a speaker that has the following characteristics: ............................for best performance. I know of a speaker maker that does that in the reverse. ( I paraphrase):
"Our speakers are highly damped and will be more satisfying with an amplifier that is less damped sounding and more relaxed- such as ..............for best results.
Sorry for the long rambling here. :|
WEEZ
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I like my T7 preamp but I am alarmed and frightened that the effects of a PC on the components are not only ignored by rather politely labeled as placebo by the designer. Doesn’t make me feel warm and fuzzy inside and certainly doesn’t give me much comfort in regards to how intently the product is being voiced. It’s much more then a science, it’s an art! Obviously Frank Van Alstine IS listening since his products all sound good but in my opinion (and the opinion of many others that own AVA gear I have spoke too) sound better with a properly chosen power cord. They’re not beliefs, they are facts! Facts because I hear them for myself quite clearly. I’ve heard the different sounds of dozens of model cords from all different makers. I haven’t heard two that sound identical. Explain to me why that is so. I wish it wasn’t, it would be much more economical to use lamp cord but lamp cord isn’t good enough.
The buying a selling of power cords on Audiogon and in retail boutiques are much too popular to say that its plecebo. The fact that SO MANY people hear such dramatic differences, it’s absurd to believe otherwise.
Skrivis, I don’t know what to say but it’s plainly clear that you don’t actually listen or simply can’t hear the differences and displace that fact for others fiction. And no, Skrivis, there is nothing wrong with my components transformers – LOL!! And there is apparently nothing wrong with my ears either since I can easily hear the subtle differences. The IC’s and cords improve on the sound of what’s already there. Ignoring it or blowing it off as ‘insignificant’ or ‘down right ridiculous’ is just robbing you of more of what you may already like in the sound of your components. I LOVE the sound of my amp and have no desire to change it. I can improve on its sound by properly choosing an AC cord and IC’s. More expensive is not always better, certainly not – I never did say that. But like most things in life, you get what you pay for most of them time. If its better, it usually cost more.
The wire in the wall and the copper in the transformers are not important, it’s the small piece of wire placed from the outlet to the IEC connector just before the transformer that is affecting the sound. It’s clearly obvious and WAY MORE then ‘mildly subtle that it’s meaningless’ to me and to very many others.
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>The wire in the wall and the copper in the transformers are not important, it’s the small piece of wire placed from the outlet to the IEC connector just before the transformer that is affecting the sound. <
How can you "know" that the wire in the wall is not important? I have a suggestion: Get a really long version of your favorite $500 a foot power cord (maybe 50 feet or so) and snake your AC connection down the halls and down the stairs to the AC outlet closest to your incoming AC power box, thus eliminating as much "in the wall" AC wiring as possible and connect the AC power to the audio equipment there, and listen again.
I think the vendors of after market power cords are really missing the boat. They should be teaming up with electrical contractors to rewire the homes of audiophiles all the way back to the 7.2KV transformers on the power pole in your backyard. Ah the opportunities to make lots and lots of money.
I bet none of you have done a true double blind wire test.
One I did years ago produced some interesting results. The editor of a small audiophile magazine I knew well called me raving about a new interconnect cable made by a local audiophile in his area. He actually drove several hundred miles to install it in my system to prove to me that I was all wet in my evaluation that magic wires were all hooey.
When he showed along with his friend, we listened to my best system as is and I got a long verbal litinay of all the horrible things my standard Radio Shack and old OEM Dynaco interconnect cables were doing to my system. I listened patently.
Then I connected the magic interconnect cable he brought with from the preamp to the power amp and listened again.
This time they were all smiles and gave me a long wonderful glowing report on the amazing improvements in the sonic quaiity (using all the same verbage the magic power line guys are using here). They were so happy to "prove" that I was all wrong about the effects of great sounding wires.
When I could not stand it any more, I went back to the system, still playing, and picked up their interconnect set, and walked back and dropped it in the editors lap. I had never connected it up, I had just pretended to.
They had "proved me" with a before and after report when the reality was that nothing changed in the system at all, they just thought the change had been made.
Boy were they mad at me! They took their magic wire and left and I never heard from the editor again.
All I am trying to do it tell you over and over that sugar pills work, but they are so darn expensive, and have no real value at all. Save your money and use it to buy CDs or season tickets to your local orchestra, or maybe our equipment.
I am kind of annoyed to see more hits on this subject than on our new Ultimate 70 amplifier, for example, when the amplifier, which costs less than most of the power cords out there, will make a real difference in your audio system, not an imaginary one.
No, I am not going to aid the cause of voodoo by putting removeable power cord sockets on our equipment.
Frank Van Alstine
[/u]
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How can you "know" that the wire in the wall is not important? I have a suggestion: Get a really long version of your favorite $500 a foot power cord (maybe 50 feet or so) and snake your AC connection down the halls and down the stairs to the AC outlet closest to your incoming AC power box, thus eliminating as much "in the wall" AC wiring as possible and connect the AC power to the audio equipment there, and listen again.
I think the vendors of after market power cords are really missing the boat. They should be teaming up with electrical contractors to rewire the homes of audiophiles all the way back to the 7.2KV transformers on the power pole in your backyard. Ah the opportunities to make lots and lots of money.
I bet none of you have done a true double blind wire test.
Oh, I have! A number of times. A friend who wants an honest answer to cable and tube rolls has put in cables and ask me which ones I like best while we are just hanging around nice and relaxed - just bullshitting. I can hear when he changes the cable, I hear it immediately! Quite honestly, I thick the power cords have a larger impact then interconnects.
He’ll not tell me what he puts in or even when he changes it. At some point I’ll notice and say, I like this one or not. He’s commented many times that I had picked such and such cable each time and/or I always seem to NOT like such and such. Again, the difference in sound is obvious!! Once is brighter, another has a much more pronounced midrange, yet another has loads of bass or none at all in comparison. I’m sorry Frank, that’s not placebo – it’s an distinctive difference.
I’ve had people try the fake cable roll on me and I always point out that the sound didn’t change. I understand that the mind can fabricate things and it usually does so when its excepting or anticipating something. Maybe your editor friends were just overly anxious, I mean they drove hundreds of miles to let you hear a wire, I’d never do that! Also, and take this for what’s it worth, I’ve been a magazine publisher for 15+ years and have worked with many editors. Who ever said that an editor actually knows anything about the subject of the magazine he/she edits?! They mostly don’t, finding a competent editor that can edit, write and manage people ‘AND’ actually have a strong personal interest in the subject of the publication they work on is rare, few and far between!
In regards to the wire in the wall, it definitely makes a sonic difference but you have to draw the line somewhere. I know people that have changes the wire in the wall from the utility box to their listening room and even added LARGE AC chokes to the line. The difference is dramatic but costly. Many do it, you make it sound like it would be a ridiculous task, it’s not for some. JPS Labs, PS Audio, MIT and such all sell in-the-wall wire, high quality receptacles and even breakers.
Also, $500 per foot, that’s $1500/meter. Way more then what I listed as reasonable for the level of AVA gear. The cables I listed (and own) are between $70 and $120 per foot retail and I paid way less then that used ($30 to $70/foot) and less considering the cost of the connectors. Your $500/foot cable is 10-x’s that and yes, quite ridiculous – I agree.
No, I am not going to aid the cause of voodoo by putting removeable power cord sockets on our equipment.
Well that’s too bad. Again, Frank, I really like the sound of the T7. Its clear, has the drive I like for my amp which aids in its overall volume and dynamics, it responds well enough to tube rolls to allow me to find the tube that best suites the system and my taste and its fairly full featured with both phone and headphone sections.
However, I was VERY disappointed in its build quality. Not that its bad but rather that its ugly! It’s the ugliest piece in my system, so much so that I have a hard time with. And it doesn’t have an IEC connector.
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However, I was VERY disappointed in its build quality. Not that its bad but rather that its ugly! It’s the ugliest piece in my system, so much so that I have a hard time with. And it doesn’t have an IEC connector.
I would prefer silver faceplates, but nobody was buying them so AVA went with black.
The markings are quite visible, the worksmanship is excellent, and they're quite functional.
What's not to like?
Besides that, I don't sit around and admire the look of my system, I listen to music. Isn't that the idea?
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I am kind of annoyed to see more hits on this subject than on our new Ultimate 70 amplifier, for example, when the amplifier, which costs less than most of the power cords out there, will make a real difference in your audio system, not an imaginary one.
For me it wasn't very interesting since I don't think I want a tube amp.
It might be fun to build one, but isn't cost-effective for me. I'd rather spend the money on having my OmegaStar upgraded to EX, or even having my FV amp upgraded.
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However, I was VERY disappointed in its build quality. Not that its bad but rather that its ugly! It’s the ugliest piece in my system, so much so that I have a hard time with. And it doesn’t have an IEC connector.
I would prefer silver faceplates, but nobody was buying them so AVA went with black.
The markings are quite visible, the worksmanship is excellent, and they're quite functional.
What's not to like?
Besides that, I don't sit around and admire the look of my system, I listen to music. Isn't that the idea?
Form follows function. I feel gypped out of Form and Style.
Not much different then a car. Who cares what it looks like you can’t see it while you’re driving, the only thing that’s important is HOW it drives and the interior directly around the driver. So should the automobile manufactures start making simple perfectly shaped objects that are optimized for function? After all, I don't sit around and admire the look of my car; I drive it to my desired destination. Who care about its looks? – I do.
About the T7 preamp: It too small, it’s too light in weight. It’s poorly dampened and isolated from vibration. It’s so light in weight that some of my cords and IC’s yank it around like it was a rag doll. It doesn’t ascetically sit well with the average sized audio component in width or depth. Its looks awkward and cheap, not so much to me as to others. I’m sorry, but the fact that it looks cheap is sad. I’ve had people that don’t necessarily care about audio, see it on my shelve and comment about it. I tell them what it cost and they ALWAYS look surprised, I’ve even gotten comments on it looking like something they saw at Radio Shack or had as a child.
My speakers, CD player and Amp aren’t elaborate in anyway but nobody is
‘surprised’ at its price. Hell, my tiny amp is ugly too – if it wasn’t for those pretty ‘fire bottles’ on top, it would be in the same category.
So don’t knock me so hard for my tastes, I own the damn things too and appreciate its sound but I don’t have to be content with it because of such! And the sad and honest fact is that if it was more ascetically pleasing to look at, I would never continuously consider replacing it. In other words, I always have my eyes open on used preamps that will fill the bill in my budget. It’s sad, right?
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Ok, Boead, you've been telling us of your remarkable ability to hear the differences in wires and such - time to demonstrate that ability, and at the same time make yourself rich!
The well-known illusionist/debunker The Amazing Randi has offered on his site the sum of one million dollars if anyone can clearly show the abilities you claim.
http://www.randi.org/jr/080504string.html#8
My prediction: even for a million dollars, you won't so much as pick up the phone. It's oh-so-much easier to be a bigshot and run your mouth in a forum where you can't be challenged.
So, go ahead. Show your stuff and get rich.
Otherwise, buzz off.
My remarkable ability to hear? No those are your words. I’m so NOT alone in my ability, that was part of the point that you obviously didn’t get. There are alot more people that actually hear the differences then not.
Running my mouth? No not really, it’s called discussion. If you don’t like it, don’t read any further! It’s your choice. I’ve been very nice and non-confrontational.
'So, go ahead. Show your stuff and get rich. Otherwise, buzz off.'
I never said I was a psychic or had any supernatural or paranormal ability, did I? And that web site was trash written by an obviously closed-minded buffoon.
Buzz off? Now that’s confrontational, bud!
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How about making a cardboard cutout of a preamp you think looks wonderful? You could lean the cutout against your T7 and have the best of both worlds--the sound of the T7 and the appearance of Brand X.
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How about making a cardboard cutout of a preamp you think looks wonderful? You could lean the cutout against your T7 and have the best of both worlds--the sound of the T7 and the appearance of Brand X.
Now that’s actually a good idea – LOL!!
I’m seriously considering transplanting the preamp into a more attractive box. There not that expensive, its just labor intensive. One of my other hobbies is building performance computers. I’ve built MANY of them over the last 10+ years, not just for myself but for others - office servers, workstations for DTP and gaming rigs. I’ve made some decent money doing to on the side over the years. So it might just be a project I’ll endeavor. I’ll audition the T7 against some other preamp before hand (when the buying time is right for me) and if I don’t find anything within my budget that bests it, I’ll seriously consider a transplant.
Hell, didn’t Frank get started by building his amps in Dynaco bodies. They made a beautiful chassis.
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Ok, Boead, you've been telling us of your remarkable ability to hear the differences in wires and such - time to demonstrate that ability, and at the same time make yourself rich!
The well-known illusionist/debunker The Amazing Randi has offered on his site the sum of one million dollars if anyone can clearly show the abilities you claim.
http://www.randi.org/jr/080504string.html#8
My prediction: even for a million dollars, you won't so much as pick up the phone. It's oh-so-much easier to be a bigs ...
Interesting. Just some comments on the stuff on the Randi site:
I remember reading some of the absurd claims of Peter Belt in one of the underground audio mags years ago. I thought it was a joke, but I thought Enid Lumley was a joke too. :D
Frank has detailed in the past how ABX testing can be flawed, and I certainly don't agree with the Julian Hirsch style "they all sound the same" comments made by QSC. QSC stuff was so poor it couldn't even compete against Peavey in the Pro Audio arena, so they got into the THX stuff and are widely used in movie theaters.
I think I'll have to get some of that "Quantum Rainbow Foil with Quantum Cream" to go with the Bybee stuff. After the Bybee thing quantum cleans the electrons, they can inspect themselves in the Rainbow Foil mirror and then apply Quantum cream so they won't get chapped.
I wonder if, when you're writing "ok" on your CDs, it makes a difference if you write in cursive or print? How about if you're left handed? Sinister doesn't seem to imply "friendly," so what will the resulting energy patterns be?
Should I start making my Wonder Bread (TM) caps with Quantum Rainbow Foil instead of Reynolds Wrap? Will I hear the difference?
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There's plenty of other brands that meet the eye candy needs, even if they be the eye candy needs of one's friends who don't care about audio and yet need to be suitably impressed when the price is given and the visual signals hit the brain. I am glad there's at least a few companies making functional, no-nonsense equipment like Frank. I haven't seen his stuff in person but the photos on the site (albeit small) appear well-made and fairly good looking. It would not be too hard to cosmetically spruce them up, perhaps with wooden or metal-finish knobs. But mostly they look like they mean business.
Boed expressed how important looks are to him, which I can understand totally. But what about the connection between this and the placebo effect of cables? Could it be that all those cables on Agon are being traded because the users aren't quite chuffed enough about the aesthetics as well? You like the sound of the AVA gear but are letting how it looks bother you enough to want to sell it. What does that tell you? That your mind is playing tricks on you. External appearances are influencing your perception. Could this also be true for power cables and interconnects?
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You like the sound of the AVA gear but are letting how it looks bother you enough to want to sell it. What does that tell you? That your mind is playing tricks on you. External appearances are influencing your perception. Could this also be true for power cables and interconnects?
No you got the wrong idea. My mind is not playing any type of tricks on me, I just like form as well as function and I think the overwhelming population of the world does. We like beautiful things - I certainly do.
External appearances aren’t influencing my perception, what gave you that idea? I’ll post photos of my ‘mostly ugly’ audio gear that I have and have had. I’m usually more willing to spend the extra money on the components performance that its looks and I’m sick of it!
My power cords are NOTHING to look at, they don’t look much different then a Home Depot extension cord but they certainly sound much better – I’ve tried them too oh and for/as speaker cables – LOL, have you? They aren’t all that good. I’d listen to a piece of string if you could get a signal through it.
I don’t have any Bling Bling, if you know what I mean!
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There's plenty of other brands that meet the eye candy needs, even if they be the eye candy needs of one's friends who don't care about audio and yet need to be suitably impressed when the price is given and the visual signals hit the brain. I am glad there's at least a few ...
This begs the question of, "Why do I need to impress my friends?" I didn't buy my stereo for them, but for me. And what kind of friends have to be impressed with you?
It might be more effective to simply burn a few hundred dollar bills for them right up front. That will impress all people. (Although often negatively.)
The aesthetics of whatever audio equipment will have a highly subjective effect on the viewer, with only some being impressed.
Far better to burn some bills and have a 100% response rate.
Oh, and I do realize that you were mainly saying that one needn't have solid gold face plates on their gear so it will be attractive, but I couldn't resist the chance to take your remarks out of context. :lol:
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External appearances aren’t influencing my perception, what gave you that idea?
Well, this:
However, I was VERY disappointed in its build quality. Not that its bad but rather that its ugly! It’s the ugliest piece in my system, so much so that I have a hard time with. And it doesn’t have an IEC connector.
and...
It doesn’t ascetically sit well with the average sized audio component in width or depth. Its looks awkward and cheap, not so much to me as to others. I’m sorry, but the fact that it looks cheap is sad. I’ve had people that don’t necessarily care about audio, see it on my shelve and comment about it. I tell them what it cost and they ALWAYS look surprised, I’ve even gotten comments on it looking like something they saw at Radio Shack or had as a child.
and...
And the sad and honest fact is that if it was more ascetically pleasing to look at, I would never continuously consider replacing it.
I am not aruging against nice looking stuff. I myself think the AVA gear is cool looking. Obviously you don't. No big whoop. But I'm just observing that you have said that visuals are affecting your opinion of the equipment. I am merely suggesting that this same thing comes into play with cords, which you denied could be the result of the placebo effect. Perhaps a cool looking cord may "sound" better than another but not necessarily because of electrical performance. It sounds like if the AVA gear was dropped into a case that fit what you like to look at (don't forget the super cool cord) then you'd be extra happy with it. I just don't see how a box is different than a cable in this regard. The same idea of looks affecting one's opinion seems mutually applicable to both types of equipment.
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Nathanm- I'm with you. I kinda think the AVA gear is cool looking too. A lot of the gear with the shiny bright aluminum looks rather mid-fi to me. :cry: .
You know what?- cords and cables all over the place; now THAT'S ugly!
What the world really needs is cables and cords that 'disappear' visually as well as sonically- then we would really have something!
:|
WEEZ
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You know what?- cords and cables all over the place; now THAT'S ugly!
What the world really needs is cables and cords that 'disappear' visually as well as sonically- then we would really have something!
:|
WEEZ
I guess you could try color-matching. A beige cable would blend in better on a beige carpet, etc.
WAF could be high too. "Look, honey, I got color-coordinated speaker wire!" :lol:
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"Super-Duper Cable Company, can I help you?"
yeah I want the Gonzo cord in beige. How much?
"The Gonzo doesn't come in beige, sir."
whadya mean it doesn't come in beige...
"Only the Gonzo Plus comes in beige".
okay, how much for the Gonzo Plus in beige?
"$500 plus shipping"
damn. what else have you got in beige?
"Well, I could probably special order the Gonzo in beige".
how much?
"$500 plus shipping.
but that's the same price as the Gonzo Plus in beige..
"Yes. It's a special order, sir."
okay, so I'll, uh, what's the difference in performance?
"The Gonzo Plus has really deep bass; smooth mids; and sweet highs".
..so what does the regular Gonzo sound like?...
"It has really deep bass; smooth mids; and sweet highs".
okay. special order the regular Gonzo in beige. here's my credit card info........
(Later that day...)
hey, honey! guess what?
What?
i didn't go for the super gonzo after all. i just special ordered the regular gonzo in beige.
Wonderfull!
:mrgreen:
:?
WEEZ
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Nathanm- I'm with you. I kinda think the AVA gear is cool looking too. A lot of the gear with the shiny bright aluminum looks rather mid-fi to me.
The silver\metallic finish seems to be the popular trend in most mainstream electronic-type gadgets I've noticed. I bought my mom a NAD L-53 recevier (catchy name, aina?) and they did a good job of faking the typical 1/2" thick aluminum faceplate. It even feels solid enough.
I can agree with boead in that really light equipment can be a bit of an annoyance. However, if I were to buy a Van Alstine product I'd rather not pay for them to ship me big heavy chunks of billet aluminum. Perhaps there could be a slot in the case where the end user could insert a steel or lead sheet. Actually a friend of mine suggested doing this deceptively, by adding sheets of lead to equipment and selling it for higher prices with the idea that people assume heavier gear is better quality. Ha!
But then again, there are cables that are overly bulky and heavy. For instance, I built a 10AWG power cord which was simply ridiculous. The IEC connector didn't have enough tension to hold the damn thing in the equipment. So the lesson was; what's built to survive the greasy floor of a mechanic's shop isn't really the best for a home audio power amp.
I don't know why the IEC type plugs are even used, they generally suck. There's no way to really bring the loose prongs back to life once they get bent outta shape. I like bayonet-style or connectors that lock into place, like an XLR, BNC or a Speakon connector. I think hifi gear should go the speakon route, definitely more full-ass IMO. Stuff held in by friction alone just isn't as nice. I'd like to be able to pick up my preamp by its cord and swing it around. :P Heck, the captive cord of Franks' would be great for that too! (kidding)
I do remember seeing some beige-techflex-covered cables somewhere. You even got a little suitcase for them. Aww. Well, a little wooden case could come in handy for something, but I'm sure one could be gotten for less than a couple thousand. What they should really do is make a cable covering that actually looks like a cobra skin and fill a void in the jacket with vegetable oil so that when you swapped your cables "snake oil" would shoot out of the end! There could be a little plastic snake head as the barrel and the + terminal of the RCA would be the tongue\vegetable oil spout.
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Nathanm, when you said perception I assumed you were talking about the perception in its performance/sound. I have no ‘sonic’ perception problem, it sounds great. Are you insinuating that I believe it sounds worse then it does because of how it looks? Are you insane? I have a hard time with its looks. I said that. Its perception is that it is a cheap and//or old opice of stereo ware. I’m sorry for being so honest, From talking to other Van Alstine owners via email over the past few months we’ve laughed at “how ‘nobody buys a piece of AVA gear because of its looks!’ – HAHAHA” type of thing.
My cables are plain Jane, nothing to look at. Actually, the MIT’s I have are installer’ type with no boxes and fancy labels or badges. I saved some money that way because they sound the same/similar as the ones with the badges.
The additional shipping from a company between 20 and 60 lbs is maybe $30. Big deal!
Heavier gear for the purpose of anchoring the component down and dampening has its merits.
You lost me in regards to IEC that ‘generally suck’ – Umm, how so? Bends or break? Really, what the hell are you doing that s breaking the IEC’s?!?! Calm yourself down and take it easy – LOL!!
Really, you have said noting all that intelligent and have only tried to be funny in a nonsensical way.
Weez, Hey man, how is it cool looking? Is it in that sort of old/retro sort of campy way? I’m knocking your opinion, I understand. I’m an artist by nature and profession. I like design, style and form very much so. I only bought the AVA because I trusted its sound quality and I’m keeping it because of the very same quality in sound and make. I NEVER said it was poorly made, it’s certainly not.
Wow, you guys that replied so far are closed minded. This is a tough room, didn’t expect that at Audio Circle.
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Yeah, oooozing snake oil coming out of beige snakeskin Gonzo wires. How cool is that.
Geez, even Audioquest has come out with battery biased , or ah, something or other cables so they always stay 'broken-in'. Or something.
Hey, to each his own. But just give me cables with good quality 6n copper (no silver,please) super litz teflon/air dielectric zero ohm zero capacitance zero inductance cables about an inch thick with really really good wonder soldered connectors with ultra good jacks plated with a substance from Pluto that are still flexible so they won't make your equipment slide off the shelf. And they better sound good too, by god, and make sure they cost around maybe no more than 1/3 of my system cost. But they gotta be beige.
WEEZ
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Boead,
Yeah in a retro way, I guess. Compact; simple, functional. Not flashy or gaudy. Stands the test of time kinda look. Loads of features and great sound. If I were looking for audio jewelry I'd be looking at out-spending my budget (or my wife's idea of my budget :lol: ). Might get 10% better sound at 500% more cost.
By the way, I used to own a Dynaco ST-400. I didn't think it was great looking. I owned a Stereo 70 too. Not pretty. Both gave me good service and enjoyment, though.
WEEZ
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Nathanm, when you said perception I assumed you were talking about the perception in its performance/sound. I have no ‘sonic’ perception problem, it sounds great. Are you insinuating that I believe it sounds worse then it does because of how it looks?
No, I know you didn't mean the sound specifically. I was referring to the overall perception of the product in the most general sense, that's all.
I wasn't intending to put you or your tastes down, I was simply bringing up the rhetorical question that if looks affect perception then why wouldn't looks affect perceptions of cable performance as well? Clearly the looks aren't affecting YOUR perception of the sound, but what if they could be for all those cable traders? I'm just throwing that out there.
Are you insane?
Don't know, I haven't been tried in a court of law. But thank you for your concern.
I have a hard time with its looks. I said that. Its perception is that it is a cheap and//or old opice of stereo ware. I’m sorry for being so honest, From talking to other Van Alstine owners via email over the past few months we’ve laughed at “how ‘nobody buys a piece of AVA gear because of its looks!’ – HAHAHA” type of thing.
No need to apologize, you're being very clear. I totally understand where you're coming from. :)
You lost me in regards to IEC that ‘generally suck’ – Umm, how so? Bends or break? Really, what the hell are you doing that s breaking the IEC’s?!?! Calm yourself down and take it easy – LOL!!
Well "suck" is probably a bit of hyperbole, but I already described 'how so'; the fact that they are just a friction connection and heavy cords don't always stay tight in the socket, that's all I meant by "generally suck".
Really, you have said noting all that intelligent and have only tried to be funny in a nonsensical way.
Well thank you for noticing. I am training for a job in marketing at one of the major hifi cable companies! Wish me luck!
Weez, Hey man, how is it cool looking? Is it in that sort of old/retro sort of campy way? I’m knocking your opinion, I understand. I’m an artist by nature and profession. I like design, style and form very much so.
There's no accounting for taste. Of course AVA doesn't look like something from Rowland, Pass Labs, or Pathos but it can still be considered "cool" in its own right. Compared to something that tries to be overly flashy, something that might tack on all sorts of wavy plastic bits as they do in the mainstream consumer market, Van Alstine gear could be considered very cool looking indeed. It depends!
I’m knocking your opinion, I understand. I’m an artist by nature and profession. I like design, style and form very much so.
Actually, so am I. I guess that means that there's no right or wrong in matters of taste, even if by profession a person is direcetly involved in design.
I only bought the AVA because I trusted its sound quality and I’m keeping it because of the very same quality in sound and make. I NEVER said it was poorly made, it’s certainly not.
Well you did, but immediately corrected yourself. The confusion may have arisen from these two sentences, the second of which contradicts the first. I knew what you're saying, however "build quality" doesn't have anything to do with it being ugly or not.
However, I was VERY disappointed in its build quality. Not that its bad but rather that its ugly!
Wow, you guys that replied so far are closed minded. This is a tough room, didn’t expect that at Audio Circle.
Thank you for your kind words. We could use more open-minded people like yourself around here. :wink:
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Yeah in a retro way, I guess. Compact; simple, functional. Not flashy or gaudy. Stands the test of time kinda look. Loads of features and great sound. If I were looking for audio jewelry I'd be looking at out-spending my budget (or my wife's idea of my budget :lol: ). Might get 10% better sound at 500% more cost.
These are all competitive to the AVA T7.
Weez, hardly 500% more? Come now let’s not exaggerate for the sake of argument.
Also consider BAT, Rogue and Cary can be had in stores for about 15% to 20% less msrp
Transcendence Seven SLR Preamplifier with phono and remote (their best)
http://www.avahifi.com/root/equipment/preamplifier/transcendence_seven_sl.htm
$2090 retail (factory direct)
The BAT VK30 with phono and remote.
http://www.balanced.com/products/line/Vk-30/index.html
$2720 retail (22% more) - $3400 msrp
The BAT VK3i with phono and remote.
http://www.balanced.com/products/line/Vk-3iX/index.html
$1920 retail (7% cheaper) - $2400 msrp
Cary Audio SLP-98P with phono and remote.
http://www.caryaudio.com/products/audio/large/slp98p.shtml
$2400 (12% more) - $3000 msrp
Rogue Audio 99 with phono and remote.
http://www.rogueaudio.com/Products_99.htm
$2000 (4% cheaper) - $2500 msrp
Audio Research SP16 with phono and remote.
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/audioresearch_sp16.htm
$2000 (4% cheaper) - $2500 msrp
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Nathanm, I understand and respect your response.
Most quality cords have IEC female ends that grab hold of the IEC connector quiet well. Wattgate, Furutech and Schurter make quality ends and are commonly used on popular cords.
We shouldn’t be comparing AVA to mainstream components with plastic parts. A loaded AVA T7 is almost $2100!
Good luck with your training :D
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Boead,
But he was saying that you would probably have to spend significantly more to get a 10% improvement in sound (and I would think 10% improvement would be a very large gain over the T7). I don't think any of the units you mentioned (eg., Cary, Bat, Rogue,etc.) -especially their bottom line units you are using for comparison - will give you ANY improvement over the AVA unit.
I paid $1499 for my T7 (with phono), so 500% of that is $7500. I would like to know which units out their for this price, will give me a 10% improvement over the AVA. (And then I'll buy it used on Agon for $3k and give it a try!)
Dave
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Oooops- you guys are right. Slip of the keystroke. Meant 50%.
We've accomplished nothing here. But it HAS been fun. (silly, but fun).
best,
WEEZ
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The AVA T7 is very good but so are all the above I mentioned. Don’t fool yourself for a minute and believe the T7 is superior to any off them. You may prefer the flavor of one over another but that’s about all.
A friend has the BAT VK3i. I was planning on bringing my T7 over to his place for an listen, he’s using a Rogue 90 amp and a Meridian 588 CDP with Alon Model One speakers. I’ll let you know what I think in a week or two.
From my experiences listening to the BAT VK3i, a Conrad Johnson PV14 and an older CJ PF-2 solid state preamp I can tell you that the BAT is extraordinary. Its rich and flavorful with a very large soundstage and tight focus. It takes well to tube rolling and is extremely well made with expensive transformers and beautifully designed boards. It remote is nicely made too. At $2500 msrp (less 10% to 20% retail) - with a phono section it directly competes with the AVA and side by side, the physical comparison is so opposite its appalling. I’ll listen to both and give you my impressions but judging from what I heard, the AVA T7 isn’t light years better if at all.
1PsychProf, you said you paid $1500 for yours. I guess that’s a deal or you don’t have all the options.
Transcendence Seven R-series Straight Line
$1300
RIAA Phono Section
$350
Buffered Tape
$140
Remote Control
$300
Total: $2090
I’m not sure what Weez was getting at but if you read this post you would see I suggested spending no more then the cost of an average component. Not sure what the whole $7500 thing is about.
I’m sure Franks head is exploiting by now. Sorry Frank.
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I can't believe this. 1500 views of this thread about nonsense, and only 250 views of a thread a few lines down about a client's reaction to building our new Ultimate 70 amplifier kit.
It looks like smoke and mirrors outweights any interest here in devices that might actually improve the musical listening experience by nearly ten to one.
What are we doing here anyway?
Lets see any of you cable junkies start with a clean sheet of paper and come up with a good audio amplifier design from the ground up all by yourself. Fat chance!
Frank Van Alstine
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Lets see any of you cable junkies start with a clean sheet of paper and come up with a good audio amplifier design from the ground up all by yourself. Fat chance!
Frank Van Alstine
Easy Frank!
Let's just say this, a properly designed power amplifier or preamp couldn't possible benefit from a power cable because the power supply would filter properly and store *plenty* of power to operate the circuitry. If you have something that is benefitting from a high-end power cord, either you are imagining things or the product isn't designed very well.
Besides, people look at threads over and over because of controversy, so it only takes one view to notice good news, but the same person might come to this thread 50 times to argue or to see how the argument is progressing and see if names are being called yet. So, I'd say the amp thread is going probably 5:1 in real terms versus this one.
"Uncle Frank, tell me again the story about how B&W stopped building good product in order to go mass market - I *like* that story" :D
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Boead-
I got the phono section for free during his summer sale, is that good enough for you?
AVA,
I really didn't know that this board was simply for audio engineers to discuss designs for new products. I apologize for my off-topic posts. I thought this forum was like the AA except we have forums to talk about specific manufacturers components. I know nothing about the workings of amps, pre-amps and such, but I have been a satisfied user of AVA products for some time.
I for one, am always interested in new designs by AVA. In fact, I have them on my favorites list and check in every week or so to see if they have anything new. Now I feel like I've been scolded for posting in your area. Sorry, will refrain from doing so in the future.
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I think Frank came off a little strong but you can see he has little patience with pseudo science. I'm sure you can post anything you want here as long as it isn't about cables. For that Audio Central would be the place even if it's in regards to AVA products.
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Lets see any of you cable junkies start with a clean sheet of paper and come up with a good audio amplifier design from the ground up all by yourself. Fat chance!
Well as a artist/designer I’d like to see any of you electronic junkies start with a clean sheet of paper and come up with a good looking design from the ground up all by yourself. Fat chance, ah Frank?
No smoke and mirrors its just plain old magic. And remember magic is science not yet understood, since you guys are the ‘experts’ – start understanding and try explaining it to us stupid folk.
See I hear it but can’t explain it; you don’t want to hear it because you can’t explain it!
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Lets see any of you cable junkies start with a clean sheet of paper and come up with a good audio amplifier design from the ground up all by yourself. Fat chance!
Hey Frank, take a breath. It's just a hobby for most of us.
Jim
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Hey boead, it must feel awqward being blindsided by the creator of a small market product of whom you've supported by purchasing his product... as it is indeed awqward.
To show great integrity in your principals you probably feel like dumping your T7 for a fraction of it's original purchase price. If you decide to, I will take the plunge and buy it from you. I also desire my expensive gear to look good (not to please anyone else but myself). However, it has everything I'm looking for in a pre and for a fraction of its hefty price as new, I think it would look right at home on my shelf right next to my butt-ugly Marchand crossover (also bought used at a fraction of its retail $). Whaddya say? :P
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I have a hard time with its looks. I said that. Its perception is that it is a cheap and//or old opice of stereo ware. I’m sorry for being so honest, From talking to other Van Alstine owners via email over the past few months we’ve laughed at “
Weez, Hey man, how is it cool looking? Is it in that sort of old/retro sort of campy way? I’m knocking your opinion, I understand. I’m an artist by nature and profession. I like design, style and form very much so. I only bought the AVA because I trusted its sound quality and I’m keeping it because of the very same quality in sound and make. I NEVER said it was poorly made, it’s certainly not.
...
As I said earlier, I actually prefer a brushed aluminum faceplate with black lettering. However, the black with white lettering plates that AVA uses are quite well done too. High quality, legible, and simplistic.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that... :)
I also feel that, with stereo equipment, beauty is in the listening, and money should go into making the equipment sound better. By that standard AVA gear is beautiful. :)
If anyone feels that it's ugly, they can probably have a local shop make up a replacement faceplate to their taste. I'm sure it won't be cheap, but it can be done...
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What you re saying is just so mundane. 'No I don’t need any salt on my potatoes, I think they’re just fine plainly boiled as they were meant to be.' All I can say is Bon appetite!
… money should go into making the equipment sound better...
Shrives, seven pages and you haven’t heard actually read or comprehended a word I said. Re-read the post and pay attention this time. Oh my now my head is going to explode!
BTW: I’ve driven cars where function follows necessity and its not any fun. I have also driven cars where form follows function where necessity is meaningless. Do you want me to list them? Or do you get the point?
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We are thinking about changing the looks of our equipment. We could use some help from you graphic artists out there.
Some constraints make it kinda tough.
1. Finding off the shelf knobs and switches that are decent looking is nearly impossible. We don't own our own two million dollar tool and die department to whip up whatever the designers draw. There is some stuff that works with a black background, but almost nothing that works with silver without the huge expense of designing your own from the ground up.
2. Lead times for new mechanical bits are long long long. Any significant layout changes require new tooling for faceplates, inner chassis, and PC board layouts too.
3. So, come up with a new "theme" that works within the context of our existing knobs, switches, controls, and mechanical layout, and that can be applied to the SL, EC, DAC, and big amplifier faceplates and we will be all eyes.
For your information, our faceplate finish process is a "double anodize" process with a silkscreened wax etch resist applied to allow a two color anodize. Note that the text and art can change to a different color, could be done in a gold shade, for example. Note also that there is a finite limit as to how thin lines and lettering can be and work with the double anodize process. Knobs are much tougher, available at rational prices and looks in silver or black only, switches much tougher yet, available with black bezels, and some awful colors (red, yellow, blue, etc) but nothing that would match a silver faceplate for example.
Hey do it right, and we might even do a removeable power cord socket for you guys too.
P.S. It would be nice if a new styling job could be available as a reasonably priced retrofit to existing product to make you guys that are unhappy with our looks now happy.
So stop complaining, and start designing.
Frank Van Alstine
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"Uncle Frank, tell me again the story about how B&W stopped building good product in order to go mass market - I *like* that story" icon_biggrin.gif
/quote]
Wasn't that back in the '60s... around the time Bud stopped being the US Distributor... LOL
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Hey boead, it must feel awqward being blindsided by the creator of a small market product of whom you've supported by purchasing his product... as it is indeed awqward.
To show great integrity in your principals you probably feel like dumping your T7 for a fraction of it's original purchase price. If you decide to, I will take the plunge and buy it from you. I also desire my expensive gear to look good (not to please anyone else but myself). However, it has everything I'm looking for in a pre and for a f ...
Awkward? Umm, no. Annoyed and disgusted? Yes!
Frank really knows how to make his customers feel confident with their purchasing decision. Thanks Frank. Funny when I asked you about the specs of the T7’s preamps input section in regards to a cathode follower (tube buffer) I was considering at one time for my Denon DVD-2900; your response was vague, you told me the cathode follower was a waste of time and that it would just make the player sound worse (100% contradictory to everyone else’s opinion, tell you something?) and then suggested I buy one of your DAC. LOL – what a salesman!
Sell it cheap? NO! It’ll go for fair market value when it does. Apparently they go for about $1000 on Audiogon.
When I bought it used I did so because of its good reviews, I was warned about its not so appealing looks. When it arrived the exact words from my mouth were; ‘what the fuck, you got to be kidding me.’ My partner in the office looked at it and laughed. Not that I cared he laughed, we’ve know each other for over 20 years but he knows I like nice things and at the same time I did, he saw how cheap it looked. In closer inspection, I found it was made ok. I mean if it was any worse, it would be junk. When I saw the lamp cord coming out of the back I actually got annoyed. And that’s what this thread was about! Replacing the lamp cord with something better. I did and it does.
Like I said earlier in this thread, when I do a direct comparison to the BAT VK3i if the AVA doesn’t blow it away, it may be going away. I expect it to fair well to the BAT, it should. It cost almost as much and its made with a fraction of materials and expense, so what I am paying for with an AVA T7? If it doesn’t have superior sonic qualities then it’s a farce.
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…So stop complaining, and start designing....
I get paid for that, quite well actually.
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What you re saying is just so mundane. 'No I don’t need any salt on my potatoes, I think they’re just fine plainly boiled as they were meant to be.' All I can say is Bon appetite!
Shrives, seven pages and you haven’t heard actually read or comprehended a word I said. Re-read the post and pay attention this time. Oh my now my head is going to explode!
BTW: I’ve driven cars where function follows necessity and its not any fun. I have also driven cars where form follows function where necessity is meaningless. Do you want me to list them? Or do you get the point?
I don't eat white potatos, they're really bad for you. :lol:
So what was I missing? You chose AVA because of function, but aren't happy because of form.
I was simply pointing out that, unlike engineering principles, appreciation of form is totally subjective.
So, I like the way AVA gear looks, and that's every bit as valid a viewpoint as yours - and I don't care whether you're an artist or not.
I like it. Full stop. End of story. Game over. You lose. :)
Ok, that was hyperbole, but I hope I made my point. Frank, as an engineer, has to concentrate on function, and the art of the possible. If the end result is still pleasing to the eye, that's wonderful. But I wouldn't want function to play second fiddle to form, since I actually have to use the stuff. If I want artwork, I'll buy another Ansel Adams print. :)
(Note that Frank has talked about the "I like it" stuff in terms of function, and "I like it" isn't really good enough there.)
I do hope you take up Frank's challenge and come up with a new design for AVA gear. I might very well like it better than the current scheme (or not), as long as it's still cost-effective. I don't wish to pay more for the "massive" look, of which Rowland is a good example, and I'm not even sure I would prefer gear that's built to look like a golden bridge abutment.
The current look is utilitarian. Some would consider that to be aesthetically pleasing. I tend to appreciate a rather minimalist look (think Japanese rock garden) rather than a rococco or other overdone (IMO) look.
The new design has to be legible. I prefer fairly dim lighting while relaxing and listening, so the new look should feature high contrast. I also don't like really tiny lettering (especially as my eyes get older), even if it were possible to do.
There was a lot of older Carver gear that was a perfect example of how form can screw up function. It was kind of a bronze with beige lettering. Contrast was extremely low. It looked great sitting on the dealer's shelf, especially since the local dealer had a brown theme to his store.
But... it was impossible to actually use in other than harsh, direct lighting. Even then you had to move your head around to make out what some of the labels said.
As I've said a few times, I actually prefer the old Dynaco look, with brushed aluminum and black lettering. The champagne look was good too. I actually chose the silver faceplate for my T2 preamp over a black one. But so few customers evidently chose silver that they stopped offering that option.
Since it's going to have to be the black look, the current theme is fine since it's legible. It works better than some black equipment I've seen. And, overall, it looks good sitting on my shelves, which are black also, so it disappears to some extent with a bit of distance.
So, given the constraints Frank has delineated, I look forward to your making AVA gear more pleasing to the eye while still retaining all the functionality. Go to it!
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...so what I am paying for with an AVA T7? ...
Umm... competent engineering?
It's been quite well proven to me over the years that AVA does well at engineering audio equipment. The build quality and layout are excellent, and the sound is superb. I'm also confident that I can buy any AVA design and have them upgrade the circuits over the years, and that the chassis will be durable enough to allow this.
My main amp at this point is an OmegaStar that's in a Hafler DH-220 chassis that I bought as a kit about 20 years ago. It's been back to AVA from time to time to have the guts upgraded. The metalwork performs quite as well as it did when I first bought it, and I fully expect to keep it around as long as I want.
It sounds superb, functions perfectly, is very cost-effective, and has a long, long lifespan. What more could you want?
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Give us all a break and let us see your new face plate design! :P
I second that. It looks like there's four screws holding on the faceplate. I assume it could be removed, scanned on a flatbed scanner and mocked up in Photoshop or Illustrator with the desired graphics.
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Frank, you don't need a graphic designer, you need an industrial designer or product designer. I am a freelance product designer and am comng up on my 10 year anniversary of employment independence in that endeavor. Your up-front cost for design is just that, but good design doesn't necessarily need to cost you any more on a unit manufacturing basis.
The new modwright preamp (which ironically is another I've been seriously looking at) is an example of design elegance. He did a nice job.
Since I'm a fan of your equipment and audio know-how and attitude, I'm sure we could work something out towards a swap of services and price of goods. Ping me offline if interested.
Randy
Hey boead, what is it exactly that you do? I missed that somehow (I did see artist and designer thrown about quite liberally)
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Curious skrivis, why do you need high contrast on your preamp? Do you need to read it from your listening position? Don't you have most of it (other than level and position indicators) memorized after the first couple of times of use?
These are honest inquiries. Thanks.
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Frank, after re-reading your post I'm not sure whether it is completely sarcastic or not. If you are serious about a better looking product then there's much you can do within your current constraints. Look at the products offered by other small mfgrs right here on AC; they have all of the same issues to deal with yet many have found ways to make it work. Ironically, I don't think the mfgrs I have in mind employed a designer either, but seem to have a pretty good design eye themselves.
I worked as a Sr. Mechanical Engineer for a medical ultrasound company for years before going out on my own and I schooled in Industrial Design (the 'art' and ergo's in products). In my experience, the more ingenius an engineer is, the less value he puts in design. That's stereotyping, but think of it as a right-brain, left-brain thing. :D If you see no value in design and ergo's, then you are reading this while rolling your eyes and this is a wasted effort. When I re-read your post, that's the impression I get. I may be wrong.
It's not an all-or-nothing thing and your post makes it seem like you've completely researched it and it's a lost cause from the get go, so why bother. It also implies that any undertaking will require new tooling, changes in tooling, revisions trickling through the whole unit (pcb's, etc) *and* right through your whole product line! To me, that sounds like a rationalization for no improvement at all.
This is meant to invoke a positive and thoughtful discussion and nothing more. If you are offended, I apologize up front and I will exit quickly if the discussion turns sour out of respect for your involvement here and your contributions to the audio industry on the whole.
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I AM serious about a major styling facelift.
The constrains I listed are there just to spell out the limitations as to what is likely possible within the context of existing hardware bits and pieces.
Am I interested in trading equipment in exchange for a useful product line restyling job? You bet!
Frank Van Alstine
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Frank, what kind of tooling are you referring to for the faceplate and chassis? None is required for sheetmetal and machined parts unless you are selling in the 10's of thousands. Modifications here should have minimal impact except for initial cam programming.
Are your switches and pots wired or board mounted? That will go a long way to seeing whether you can simplify your front panel layout with groupings that make intuitive sense rather than using the old-school method of grouping with graphical brackets which tend to make the front panel look busier than it needs to. My suggestion to get 1/2 way there on your own is to minimize and simplify the graphics and to organize the actuators and knobs such that the groupings are intuitive. You have an additional challenge in that you offer more features than most mfgrs and finding the right knobs and switches (size and style) is critical (you already know that).
I mentioned before that I worked for an ultrasound company. Have you ever seen the keyboard on an ultrasound machine? My major responsibility was the mechanical layout and design of the keyboard on the Acuson Sequoia system. Believe me, audio front panels are cake in comparison. :wink: I have no doubt you can do some major improvement on your own with limited effort. I'm more than happy to help in whatever capacity you choose.
(http://www.acuson.com/images/sequoia/manscan-seqcard.jpg)
Best regards,
Randy
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WOW! Gone for a few day's to the great north of Minneasota snowmobling and boy did this thread explode! :bomb:
I have never bought a piece of equipment for looks. I only buy for me, nobody else. What I like most about AVA gear is when I crank up that little T-7SLR along with the rest of the AVA gear hidden away in a closet and watch the reaction of friend's and family. It blows everbody away. All that sound is coming from that!. :o
If anything, just to give people a choice, maybe a IEC connector on his equipment would be a good thing. For me, remove a few of the switches like the tape1 and 2 and the stereo switch. I like the simpler the better approach.
NOTICE! Don't anyone reading this thread and take AVA gear off your list without hearing it.
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The new modwright preamp (which ironically is another I've been seriously looking at) is an example of design elegance. He did a nice job.
Since I'm a fa ...
If it's the one shown at: http://www.responseaudio.com/modwright%20linestage.htm
It looks good, but I wonder whether there's enough contrast to see the markings without carrying a flashlight. :)
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The new modwright preamp (which ironically is another I've been seriously looking at) is an example of design elegance. He did a nice job.
Since I'm a fa ...
If it's the one shown at: http://www.responseaudio.com/modwright%20linestage.htm
It looks good, but I wonder whether there's enough contrast to see the markings without carrying a flashlight. :)
Yea, but, you never answered my questions. :?
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Frank, what kind of tooling are you referring to for the faceplate and chassis? None is required for sheetmetal and machined parts unless you are selling in the 10's of thousands. Modifications here should have minimal impact except for initial cam programming.
Are your switches and pots wired or board mounted? That will go a long way to seeing whether you can simplify your front panel layout with groupings that make intuitive sense rather than using the old-school method of grouping with graphical brack ...
Tooling? I suspect he refers to mounting holes, etc. I suppose the vendor might use a template, but it's also quite possible they use soft-tooling, so changes are easy. The vendor could very well ding you for a setup or change fee.
Looking at the SL preamp faceplate, it's already grouped well. You could just remove the white boxes and see what it looks like. (Photoshop or even a Sharpie on a real faceplate would work.) I guess you could increase the spacing between knobs for more defined grouping, but then you start getting the Vol pot closer and closer to the power supply. I can't imagine that would be _good_ for things, but it might do no real harm.
The EC is already spaced about as far as it can go, so removing the white boxes is the next step. I haven't used an EC chassis, but it also looks like it's grouped logically.
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Tooling? I suspect he refers to mounting holes, etc.
No offense skrivis, but Frank is in on this thread. He could answer definitively.
I know his controls are grouped well. But it is much more involved than that. Spacing, knob/actuator size and shape, graphics, colors, materials, ergo's, all come into play and must work well together. That was my point.
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Having seen some of the early redesign work a while back I'm pretty sure you won't see white boxes in any new design....
Larry
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Frank, (and all)
There will never be a product in audio that will please everybody. No matter what. Whether it's looks or sonics- not everyone will agree on 'what's best'. There seem to be a 'few' accepted attributes, however, in high-end audio that seem to have universal acceptance:
1) 17" width
2) IEC connectors :|
3) minimalist look
4) quality
budyog mentioned the tape 1/2 switch and stereo/mono switch. He apparantly doesn't use them. randog mentioned tone controls in another thread. He, apparantly, uses them. So, you see, it's a dilemma to a designer. What to offer?
To me; whether AVA redesigns the look of the their equipment or not, I am sure that I speak for everyone here, that SONIC performance should rule the day. I am not aware of anybody who dislikes the sound quality of AVA gear. That speaks volumes, IMHO.
(this thread has not been a waste of time, Frank. silly at times, yes. all in good fun. for the most part, any criticism has been intended to be constructive- despite the passion. the quality reproduction of music is, after all, a passionate persuit for all of us)
WEEZ
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Curious skrivis, why do you need high contrast on your preamp? Do you need to read it from your listening position? Don't you have most of it (other than level and position indicators) memorized after the first couple of times of use?
These are honest inquiries. Thanks.
I get the positional cues down pretty quickly. On the SL chassis, Vol, Bal, and Selector fall to hand readily.
Theoretically, I could do without any markings at all. Count so many up from left extreme and you have the Bal centered. Count clicks on Vol. Count clicks on the Selector switch. Memorize what stands for what.
I prefer not to do that though. I'd rather just have legible markings so I can look and tell what's what.
I operate enough of a variety of devices in daily life that I don't need any mystery front panels. :)
Sure, I might only need to look at the markings infrequently, but it's truly annoying if I try to look and need a flashlight or magnifying glass to do so.
Judging from the pic of the ultrasound device, you value clarity and legibility too. I would consider that keyboard to be fairly high contrast. (It's a bit hard to tell from a photo what it looks like under normal use though.)
Are you perhaps suggesting that labels for knobs should be unobtrusive, while positional markings for those knobs should be higher contrast? (This can't be done with 2 layers of anodizing anyway.)
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Are you perhaps suggesting that labels for knobs should be unobtrusive, while positional markings for those knobs should be higher contrast? (This can't be done with 2 layers of anodizing anyway.).
Huh? The level indicators are on the knobs. Those are the indicators that require contrast.
That ultrasound machine has backlit graphics. The graphics are easily read with and without backlighting. Each key has a lightpipe piped from an LED on the pcb indicating key function. The keys and paddles are conductive elastomer actuators with a proprietary design allowing either to be used in the same hole. It took 2 years of my life and I could go on for days... :lol:
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This applies to the SL preamp chassis.
The signal switches are snap in mounted to the faceplate itself. Faceplate thickness limited to .098 to make the switch specs (NKK series M). The rotary switch and vol and balance controls are mounted to the inner faceplate (part of the main chassis). Headphone jack mounted to the outer faceplate. EC type headphone jack could be used, mounted on inner chssis with some chassis modification, but that would require machining panel (inside) side of faceplate to provide space for the jack mounting hardware.
Moving switches and or knob locations requires changing both faceplate and inner chassis, not a big deal if required. Inner faceplate also supports remote control/mute board which occupies almost all the space between the mono-stereo switch and power switch.
One rocker switch (Tape 1 - Tape 2) can be eliminated as nobody uses that function any more. Remaining rockers (Input - Tape, Mono - Stereo, Power) could mount horizontally with minor inner face revisions.
I can furnish .pdf files of mechanicals if you are interested. Thinking about gold or champaign artwork on black background as a possibility that would allow use of stock knobs and switches.
Again, open to suggestions.
Frank Van Alstine
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<One rocker switch (Tape 1 - Tape 2) can be eliminated as nobody uses that function any more.>
I wouldn't have bought my T7 ECR if it didn't have 2 tape loops and the switch for them. I don't often record to cassette anymore, but I do transfer from cassette to CDR and from other sources to CDR.
So it just goes to show--obsolete or unused functions to some are essential features to others.
Maybe it's because I just bought my AVA gear this year, but I don't look forward to a redesign so soon after my purchase. Everything is laid out logically and falls readily to hand. If anything, I might change the knobs to match those on my Tascam 122 MKIII cassette deck, which I think is a classic. Anyone know what diameter the shafts are for the large & small knobs are on the T7?
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Hi Frank and All,
Maybe this website might be helpful and money saving after you decide on the where you want the design to go
Look here:
http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/home/index.htm
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Hey boead, what is it exactly that you do? I missed that somehow (I did see artist and designer thrown about quite liberally).
I’m not qualified to do industrial design and I never implied so. I have good design skills and taste but… industrial design? With some time, I’m sure I could come up with something but I... Volunteering! Frank is obviously asking for the help. Good!
Myself, I started out in the publishing industry almost 20 years ago. I went to college for Advertising Art and Design, worked as a apprentice for a color separator and film prep houses. Learned publishing and production, worked for a Fortune-500 commercial printer as a production manager, went back to college for Desktop Publishing, worked for a comic book and illustration publisher as a graphic designer and production manager and eventually got into consumer and trade publication as a production coordinator and operations manager. I also manage small projects as an associate publisher. I administer two to three dozen computers as well as an art department.
My only package design experience is with video and CDROM applications. We use to produce product and manufacturer directories on CDROM for the Audio Engineering and Musical Instrument Industries. We also owned a post production studio; I worked closely with studio manager and editors. I do some small-time video editing for multimedia and web applications. Yes, I wear lots of different hats – its fun.
So I appreciate good design.
And don’t get me completely wrong. I understand and sort of appreciate the simplistic look of current AVA gear. Unfortunately it lacks appeal and leans too heavily on simplicity as a byproduct of function and not intention.
Randog, I’m sure your qualified and I hope you come up with something that is stylish and worthy. I really DO like the sound of my AVA, especially with a Harmonic Tech AC-10 power cord.
Frank, I hope you’re not mad at me. I didn’t mean to get disrespectful, just being defensive.
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To me; whether AVA redesigns the look of the their equipment or not, I am sure that I speak for everyone here, that SONIC performance should rule the day. I am not aware of anybody who dislikes the sound quality of AVA gear. That speaks volumes, IMHO.
Absolutely!! Well said.
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Frank, I hope you’re not mad at me. I didn’t mean to get disrespectful, just being defensive.
Can't speak for Frank, but I imagine everyone here has fairly thick skins, so I doubt anyone is mad.
I know I'm sure not. I've survived 10+ years on Usenet, so I'm used to far worse than anything I've seen here. (Ad hominem attacks are almost de rigueur for Usenet. LOL)
We're coming at this from different directions. You seem to see the package of the equipment as being part of the whole experience. It has to look nice so it can be fully pleasing.
It see it as a tool to reproduce music in my home. The package just has to be functional and the purpose is too delight my ears, not my eyes. For that I can get a Lava Lamp. :lol:
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In defense of boead, when you work in an industry that demands a high degree of sophistication in design, you tend to be very critical of it in everything you see.
Audio is still pretty cool in that there are a number of entrepeneurs making a go of it, many of whom are here at AC. To expect them to pay the money for industrial design isn't realistic and, anyway, the mechanical packaging of an electronics product usually always takes a back seat no matter how small or large the mfgr is (at least it has in the 25 years I've been doing it!). The focus on electronics is function and I'm glad everyone here agrees that's as it should be.
That said, good industrial and mechanical design is icing on the cake and can give a high level of perceived quality to the customer.
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I have always been someone who appreciates something that is well built and beautiful to look at, like most of us. The idea that looks aren't important denies the fact that there is pleasure and pride taken in owning something beautifully designed and built even if ultimately the purpose is utilitarian, like a watch or a car. I could build a dining room table out of 3/4" plywood with 4x4" legs and some 2x4" reinforcement to keep the plywood from warping and it would last forever and serve the function of a dining room table as well as any you could buy at your nearest furniture store. I don't need to say that I probably couldn't give it away,however, and I don't need to explain why. Most peoples stereos are highly visible and visually dominating- usually the focus of the living room unless you're fortunate enough to have a dedicated room. There is nothing wrong with wanting the componants that make that up to be as visually appealing as possible. So this is a long winded way of saying I'm glad to see Mr. Van Alstine willing to make his stuff more attractive. I never could understood his seeming disdain for the concept. I'll bet he doesn't apply it to his automobile purchases! And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying his equipment is ugly. It's just sort of utilitarian. Not something that will grace a room. (Factor in a wife or girlfriend and the aethetics part becomes even more of an issue!)
I would like to say also that, in spite of the fact his equipment doesn't have much visual appeal, I own a pair of Omegastar 260EX power amps which are driving a pair of VMPS RM 2's in a vertical bi-amp configuration. Frank really knows how to make an amp sing. Combining the incredible musicality of his gear with a better cosmetic design will complete the package. Hopefully he will offer a faceplate upgrade for existing AVA owners.
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Hey all,
As I said in a previous post, I think the AVA gear looks okay. Upon further reflection, I would suggest that by simply removing the squares or outlines- whatever you want to call them- would simplify the look and be more appealing.
That would be a no-cost change, I would think.
FWIW,
WEEZ
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I never could understood his seeming disdain for the concept. I'll bet he doesn't apply it to his automobile purchases!...
I have a fairly weird take on cars.
When I'm using one, I'm sitting in the driver's seat. From the driver's seat, you can't see a lot of the outside of the car. So I won't be enjoying a "pretty" car. Therefore, if I buy a pretty car, I'm buying it mainly for _other_ people to look at.
So, when I buy a car, I do it from the inside out. I look for quality, reliability, and good ergonomics and feel when driving. Once I've got the field narrowed down, then I might pick the better-looking car, all other things being equal.
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skrivis,
Not so weird, atypical perhaps, and wise for sure!
Fortunatately we don't have our cars parked in a prominant place in our living rooms!
I'm in the market for new speakers and every one I am giving serious consideration to I have my wife check out to see if she likes the looks ok. Now she is very cool about such things and I would have to bring home something pretty ugly or weird looking for her to get upset. But I do want for her to be happy with the way it looks because it will dominate the room as I'm looking for full range floor standers. There is no shortage of fine sounding and beautifully crafted speakers on the market, however, so I don't think I have to worry about it too much. She really likes the Usher 6 series with the gloss black finish and the Lorelei's as well so I'm in good shape.
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skrivis,
Not so weird, atypical perhaps, and wise for sure!
Fortunatately we don't have our cars parked in a prominant place in our living rooms!
I'm in the market for new speakers and every one I am giving serious consideration to I have my wife check out to see if she likes the looks ok. Now she is very cool about such things and I would have to bring home something pretty ugly or weird looking for her to get upset. But I do want for her to be happy with the way it looks because it will dominate th ...
I tend to be wary of imported speakers. There are many fine speakers built in the US and Canada, and the shipping costs won't be such a large portion of the manufacturing costs of the speakers. You tend to get more for your money with domestic speakers.
With my wife, I just sat her down, had her close her eyes, and just listen. She quickly "got it" and I don't get any complaints anymore. :)
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Actually the Usher speakers are considered a tremendous value. Another AC member just recently sold his Loreleis (German design but Canadian built) for a pair of Ushers that retail for several hundred dollars less. Cheaper overseas labor more than offsets shipping costs. Haven't heard them yet myself though. No dealers in my area. They (or any other speaker I consider) will have to sound pretty spectacular to convince me to replace my VMPS RM-2's.
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What in the world do some of these recent replies have to do with power cords? Please start a new thread with a more appropriate subject so we'll have some idea of what's being discussed before we open it. Thanks.
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I agree with Dan! Boy did this get off track several times!
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Delete the thread because you disagree with the content? Thats being really open minded.
I disagree with a lot of the content herein myself, but my goal is not to act as a censor at the AVA Circle.
I don't come from a "Red State." :?
Frank Van Alstine
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Holy Sh*t Frank!
As if power cords and cables aren't bad enough. Let's not do politics for cripes sake.....
:|
WEEZ
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Holy Sh*t Frank!
As if power cords and cables aren't bad enough. Let's not do politics for cripes sake.....
:|
WEEZ
He's got a valid point though. This circle would lose its value if it was heavily moderated. It could become just a cheerleading section where no dissenting opinions are allowed.
When a thread goes off-topic, some people will just stop posting to it. Others, who are interested in the new topic will keep posting. So what's the problem? :)
It's actually much easier on Usenet since you have far more control over how things are displayed and managed. You can fork off a branch of a thread by changing the subject but maintaining the Refs. People can easily ignore an entire branch. Personally, I really don't like web-based bulletin boards, and I don't see why they've become so popular...
:oops: I just veered even farther off-topic. :lol:
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Holy Sh*t Frank!
As if power cords and cables aren't bad enough. Let's not do politics for cripes sake.....
:|
WEEZ
He's got a valid point though. This circle would lose its value if it was heavily moderated. It could become just a cheerleading section where no dissenting opinions are allowed.
When a thread goes off-topic, some people will just stop posting to it. Others, who are interested in the new topic, will keep posting. So what's the problem? :)
It's actually much easier on Usenet since you have far more control over how things are displayed and managed. You can fork off a branch of a thread by changing the subject but maintaining the Refs. People can easily ignore an entire branch. Personally, I really don't like web-based bulletin boards, and I don't see why they've become so popular...
:oops: I just veered even farther off-topic. :lol:
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So where’s the new body?
Randog – hows it coming?
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Don't ask me, ask Frank...
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Frank?
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I like my T7 preamp but I am alarmed and frightened that the effects of a PC on the components are not only ignored by rather politely labeled as placebo by the designer. Doesn’t make me feel warm and fuzzy inside and certainly doesn’t give me much comfort in regards to how intently the product is being voiced. It’s much more then a science, it’s an art! Obviously Frank Van Alstine IS listening since his products all sound good but in my opinion (and the opinion of many others that own AVA gear I have spoke ...
Hi Boead, Well, when I bought My Purist from Curt, one of the things he did was to try and clean up the power signal before it went to the transformer. He told me he had tried some audio cords and did not hear much of a difference. Now, I don't doubt that there are differences in cords, but most of the better ones attempt to clean up the power before it hits the transformer. That's why they sound good or in some cases better. The issue with interconnects, well, that's a hard one. I won't in any way ridicule Grank's findings. I know I had heard the differences between crappy cords that come with equipment and some aftermarket cords. I haven't listened lately to the newest crops of cords. Ultimately, it is to enjoy the music and hopefully the equipment used will get out of the way and just let the music through.
Ray
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>The wire in the wall and the copper in the transformers are not important, it’s the small piece of wire placed from the outlet to the IEC connector just before the transformer that is affecting the sound. <
How can you "know" that the wire in the wall is not important? I have a suggestion: Get a really long version of your favorite $500 a foot power cord (maybe 50 feet or so) and snake your AC connection down the halls and down the stairs to the AC outlet closest to your incoming AC power box, t ...
Hi Frank, Well, that was a nice trick. I did on a cdplayer take the stock Flat cord that was on the player and sub it out for a cord off an old vacumm cleaner. The difference I heard was subttle at best. I figured the twisted pair might help the sound. So perhaps a dumb question, are your power cords using a twisted pair of wires or are you using just a flat parallel cord? On the sugject of interconnects, you need to repost your challenge to the various vendors here on AC in one of the other circles about your cables and see what you get? We have some manufacturers that make some supposedly good cables. Just some thoughts. I know for a fact that Wayne's cables on your system show differences. Ask Tyson about that one. Why is that?
Ray
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However, I was VERY disappointed in its build quality. Not that its bad but rather that its ugly! It’s the ugliest piece in my system, so much so that I have a hard time with. And it doesn’t have an IEC connector.
I would prefer silver faceplates, but nobody was buying them so AVA went with black.
The markings are quite visible, the worksmanship is excellent, and they're quite functional.
What's not to like?
Besides that, I don't sit around and admire the look of my system, I listen to music. Isn't that the idea?
When I told my wife I wanted to spend $500 for a CDPLayer, I thought she was gonna come unglued. lol. We men when it seems to come to audio, as a general statement are not so much in to the looks as the sound of it.
Ray
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Nathanm, when you said perception I assumed you were talking about the perception in its performance/sound. I have no ‘sonic’ perception problem, it sounds great. Are you insinuating that I believe it sounds worse then it does because of how it looks? Are you insane? I have a hard time with its looks. I said that. Its perception is that it is a cheap and//or old opice of stereo ware. I’m sorry for being so honest, From talking to other Van Alstine owners via email over the past few months we’ve laughed at “ ...
Well, when you go in to any particular brand circle, you will have those people who are extreme loyalists. "How dare you knock brand X?" I haven't seen his gear. I just hope the box say for the preamps aren't just a flimpsy case. Yeah, it's functional, but cheap. Now before anyone here gets the hackles up, it's just my imagination working here. I have seen over my 30 Plus years messing around in this field stuff that looks homemade, but sounded great. My Purist, for example weighs about 25 pounds. Partly it's because he did not put the stuff in a cheesy bendable case like a lot of stuff from Rad Shack. I completely understand where you are coming from.
Ray
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Hi Frank, Well, that was a nice trick. I did on a cdplayer take the stock Flat cord that was on the player and sub it out for a cord off an old vacumm cleaner. The difference I heard was subttle at best. I figured the twisted pair might help the sound. So perhaps a dumb question, are your power cords using a twisted pair of wires or are you using just a flat parallel cord? On the sugject of interconnects, you need to repost your challenge to the various vendors here on AC in one of the other circles abo ...
<sigh>
From another circle:
Brushing of the Fairy Dust (not to mention the Bull Dust).
The mains transformer is a step down transformer. The impedances in the primary reflect into the secondary according to the SQUARE of the turns ratio. Impedances in the primary are INSIGNIFICANT when reflected into the secondary, compared to secondary wire resistance etc. (An extra 0.1 ohm in the primary will reflect into the secondary as about an extra 0.01 Ohm).
Its bunk - those who spend $100 on a "flash" power cord report improved sonics because they expect to hear improved sonics and are therefore convinced that they do so, NOT because the were any.
The thing that does give you some improvement is keeping mains noise out of your amp. So chuck that cheap IEC mains socket and replace it with a filtered socket - the one with the most agressive filter you can find.
Do NOT under any circumstances remove the mains fuse(s) - this is BAD advice and in worst case conditions is DANGEROUS advice.
I suppose I should appologise to those that I offend with this post and I probably would - if I gave a rats.
So tell me again why you want to tweak power cords.... :)
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So tell me again why you want to tweak power cords.... :)
Hi Skrivis, Well, like I stated in another post, and yours agrees with me that a power cord set up to "clean"/condition the line before it gets to the transformer would be the only reason I could honestly think of to have a different cord. My little experience with the cdplayer showed a tiny difference if that. I am no expert here, so I'll rely on others whose opinions I would trust like Curt and Frank. I don't have enough experience to know about power cords. Now interconnects, that I can tell you about. But here to, I will for the most part keep my silence. Frank's observations has led him to believe that a pair of Rad Shack cables are as good as it gets. If that is how he feels, and he is the electrical engineer, who am I to argue. We all have our opinions and biases, and that's ok. What's important here is to ... in the end listen to the music and ENJOY IT.
Ray
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… that a power cord set up to "clean"/condition the line before it gets to the transformer would be the only reason I could honestly think of to have a different cord.
A power cord isn‘t going to clean the AC, what different wire doe3ws is change impedance curves which directly effects the signature of the sound. It’s more of a ‘synergy’ between cord and transformer. What is bass heavy on a CD Player may be just right on another CD Player or Amp.
…Frank's observations has led him to believe that a pair of Rad Shack cables are as good as it gets.
I just picked up two pairs of RatShack Gold Interconnects for my tape deck ($20/pair) and compared them to my MIT’s – WOW, not even similar! A near deaf imbecile can hear the difference!
… If that is how he feels, and he is the electrical engineer, who am I to argue.
Who are you to argue?!? Do you have two ears that basically work? If the answer is yes then you qualify as much as Frank! Because Frank knows circuit design doesn’t mean he has good taste. Hell, he might think brown polyester leisure suites are hip! Because he doesn’t ‘believe’ (or doesn’t want to believe) that anything is much different that a $20 pair of RatShack cables, isn’t proof-positive of its truth. Trust your own senses, there the ones you listen with, not Franks.
… We all have our opinions and biases, and that's ok. What's important here is to ... in the end listen to the music and ENJOY IT.
Absolutely, I just hate it when people tell me I’m a moron to ‘believe’ or that what I trust (my ears and brain) are being fooled by placebo. That’s just bullshit!
And yes, I listen to an enormous amount of music. I could listen to an old Sony walkman and a cheap pair of headphones if I had to but fortunately I don’t.
Short Story:
One of my dogs (a Boxer) nearly ate my Sennheiser HD600’s, I guess she wanted a little snack! I fixed them but had to replace the cord which is thinner then kite string. I made up a set of headphone cables from some silver plated copper wire in a Teflon jacket, I used a good quality Switchcraft ¼’ jack and PET insulation. After breaking them in for 100 hours, I brought them to a friend last night. He has the very same Sennheiser HD600’s with a ZuCable (cost about $200), he also has the stock cord and a nice headphone amp (Class-A, SET (EL84’s)). We listened to the two identical sets of headphones with two entirely different headphone cables. My opinion was that they sounded like two entirely different headphones. He thought so too. Later that night a couple of other friends came by and I asked them to give them a listen. BOTH were astonished how different the two headphones sounded. We all agreed, with no question (NO placebo!), that the wire not only made a difference but that it was so dramatic as to make the same phones sounds completely different. They both sounded very nice. It would be a difficult decision to choose which I liked better.
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Absolutely, I just hate it when people tell me I’m a moron to ‘believe’ or that what I trust (my ears and brain) are being fooled by placebo. That’s just bullshit!
And yes, I listen to an enormous amount of music. I could listen to an old Sony walkman and a cheap pair of headphones if I had to but fortunately I don’t.
I don't know what you're hearing or why, but I certainly haven't meant to imply you're a moron.
I do feel there are better places to spend your money than cables...
In essence, we can try to correct big problems or little ones. Engineering says that there are big problems still existing in our stereo systems. Trying different wires and cables and such is targetting the small problems, or maybe even the point at which the problems or effects are arguable.
Why not target the still-existing big problems? It's going to make more of a difference.
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About Frank VA: "Hell, he might think brown polyester leisure suites are hip!"
I don't think I've ever seen a picture of Frank, but I'd venture to guess he's a better dresser than James Bongiorno in the current Stereophile!
Hey Frank, post a picture of the design team on the website! How about pics inside the lab/factory? Anyone else agree?
biz
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Absolutely, I just hate it when people tell me I’m a moron to ‘believe’ or that what I trust (my ears and brain) are being fooled by placebo. That’s just bullshit!
And yes, I listen to an enormous amount of music. I could listen to an old Sony walkman and a cheap pair of headphones if I had to but fortunately I don’t.
Short Story:
One of my dogs (a Boxer) nearly ate my Sennheiser HD600’s, I guess she wanted a little snack! I fixed them but had to replace the cord which is thinner then kite string. I ...
Well, I think you and I are more in agreement here than not. I really did not want to say this, but I guess I will, it really astonishes me sometimes how designers of gear have there biases. Probably not exactly here, but you'd almost think they were deaf and couldn't hear the differences between two cables. lol. Yeah, I know there are differences. I haven't really been active in audio for many years, but when I've listened to cables some were definitely better than others, and in some cases night and day. My only point was to hopefully quiet this thread, to say that Frank feels that cables are a lot of bull and in some cases I think I could even agree. But in a lot of other cases, the sound improvements are astonishing. A lot of people in this particular circle feel the same way as he does. So let 'em have their own opinions. If they can't hear the differences, well, that's their loss or gain, depending on how you look at it.
So, Frank if you just happen to be reading this piece from me, I'd go to each of the cable vendors we have here on AC and ask them to lend you a pair of each of there respective interconnect or speaker cables. As a manufacturer, you could say you were looking for the best cable that would be cennerjictly correct for your gear. Some of the vendors here know what they are talking about and again I would start with them. When there have been some of the cable shootouts here on AC your equipment was definitely in the mix. I think you'd find out rather quickly, your gear is better than you might have possibly believed it ever could be. If I understand correctly, if you have been using typical junk cable. Rad Shack cable is for starters, then you still have some learnin to do. I have taken those double blind tests. I have even done them triple blind, ... because you see, I am blind. .
Ray
Ray
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About Frank VA: "Hell, he might think brown polyester leisure suites are hip!"
I don't think I've ever seen a picture of Frank, but I'd venture to guess he's a better dresser than James Bongiorno in the current Stereophile!
Hey Frank, post a picture of the design team on the website! How about pics inside the lab/factory? Anyone else agree?
biz
Well, as to what he wears, that's his business. We've ragged on him enough.
Ray
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You know guys, I think that all this talk about cables and cords is like splitting hairs. Every cable or cord might have a slightly different sound- but most of the time the difference is subtle. Some cables really screw-up the sound.
We audio/music geeks sometimes get into a never ending pursuit of perfection and we're not sure when we've gotten there. We tend to listen for sounds instead of music. Sometimes we even forget what real instruments sound like.
We listen to a recording we haven't listened to in a while and wonder where the bass went. Chances are, there wasn't any bass in the recording to start with.
Or we play a recording that sounds bright and edgy and we blame the amp or the speakers or the go*d@m cables. We read somewhere that cable X tames the 'grit' and we're first to jump. Two weeks later we complain that our system is dull.
I submit that today's audio makers have created equipment that is so transparent that in some cases, what we really hear is the work of recording engineers screwing around with the 'sound' in the studio to the extent that by the time it gets played on our stereo- it no longer has a chance to sound real no matter what we do.
:o
On another forum someone said that 'you just need to listen to better recordings'. Fine, but an excellent recording of sh*tty music is still sh*t.
I posted earlier in this long-ass thread that the best cable is one you can't hear. I stand by that statement. If it 'colors' the music- it's wrong. The music should provide the color. Not the cable. Not the equipment.
Live music sounds warm sometimes. Sometimes it sounds bright. Sometimes music is smooth. Sometimes it's harsh. Some of us want to make everything sound the same, it seems.
Hearing differences in cables is not the same as hearing improvements. The 'best' cable in the world can't make a bad system good. I guess the 'best' cable could make a good system better. But if there was a 'best' cable- then I guess we would all be using it, now wouldn't we.
I guess we all hear a little differently, so the debate will rage on. But really, guys- a cable or cord ain't gonna make chicken salad outta chicken sh*t.
We should really be hoping for a new Transcendence "8" pre-amp. 8)
WEEZ
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You know guys, I think that all this talk about cables and cords is like splitting hairs. Every cable or cord might have a slightly different sound- but most of the time the difference is subtle. Some cables really screw-up the sound.
We audio/music geeks sometimes get into a never ending pursuit of perfection and we're not sure when we've gotten there. We tend to listen for sounds instead of music. Sometimes we even forget what real instruments sound like.
We listen to a recording we haven't listened ...
Hi Weez, Well, ultimately, what I hope everyone is looking for is equipment that gets out of the way and just plays damn good music. Cables are only a tweak to hopefully no colored sound. You make some valid points. So I'll go away and go back to lurk mode, where I can learn about the products in this and other circles. When I have the thousands of dollars to buy this good stuff, I will buy. Meanwhile like you, Weez I'll be patient and wait for the Trans 8 and whatever else Frank and his team cooks up.
Ray
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Hi:
Here is an interesting read:
http://www.avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/1990-01_cables.htm
Larry
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Well, I think you and I are more in agreement here than not. I really did not want to say this, but I guess I will, it really astonishes me sometimes how designers of gear have there biases. Probably not exactly here, but you'd almost think they were deaf and couldn't hear the differences between two cables. lol. Yeah, I know there are differences. I haven't really been active in audio for many years, but when I've listened to cables some were definitely better than others, and in some cases night and day. ...
Of course designers have their biases. That's why their designs are different from someone else's. :)
So, Frank if you just happen to be reading this piece from me, I'd go to each of the cable vendors we have here on AC and ask them to lend you a pair of each of there respective interconnect or speaker cables. As a manufacturer, you could say you were looking for the best cable that would be cennerjictly correct for your gear. Some of the vendors here know what they are talking about and again I would start with them.
Frank did something like this in the past. It was reported in Audio Basics.
As for the vendors knowing what they're talking about, that may be, but very few seem to be good at sharing that knowledge. I see a lot of "sounds great" and pseudo-science.
Much of the pseudo-science is at the level of homeopathic "medicine."
Latch onto something that is so subtle that it only effects transoceanic cables, then puff it up to be a "real" problem at 1 meter lengths.
That's how we got oxygen-free copper and linear-crystal or whatever they call it, and silver wire to kill vampires.
Once you're there, you wander off into speculation that the color of the insulator effects the "sound" of a cable.
It's one thing if you actually design a cable. You're seeking certain characteristics, or seeking to improve certain parameters. You can then communicate that to your customers, and even perhaps offer advice on whether the cable will be suitable for their use.
But most just listen and arrive at "sounds great." That's crap. It's just as valid for me to listen to the same cables and pronounce that they are the root cause of AIDS. (See, now you know. AIDS is due to Monster Cable. Before we had Monster Cable we didn't have AIDS, and my careful listening has determined that stereo systems using Monster Cable cause minute changes in the germ plasm, and this produces AIDS.) (I just picked Monster because it popped into my head. I'm not seriously suggesting that Monster Cable has any effects at all. This was just a joke, not fact, and not intended to be seen as libelous by any lurking attorneys.)
Would you fly in a plane that had been "modded" by some of these people? People who don't do any objective testing? I can just see it, a 767 with so many gonzo caps and gonzo wire that the access panels won't close. The SR-71 Blackbird was really fast, and it was black. Therefore, planes go faster if you paint them black. I'm going to demand that United paint all their planes black so I can arrive more quickly.
Teflon is relatively low in terms of coefficient of friction. Therefore we'll just add it to our motor oil and the engine will run smoother forever after.
Oh, it clogs up the oil filter? Oh, it doesn't actually adhere to bearing surfaces? Oh, it starts to decompose (undergo pyrolysis) at engine temperatures? My bad.
I know what the response will be. "But Cable XYZ sounds better." Wonderful. You've still been snookered because there are far better places to put your time and money.
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Yo! Frank!!
Are you still using Kimber Kables?
Cheers
Charlie
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Hey Ray,
Don't go into 'lurk mode', for crying out loud :nono: !
You know, I've read the AVA newsletters off and on when I get time and they really are a good read. While some of it is dated- the basics never change. I had read the 'cable challenge' piece before; but when I re-read it again after Larry's post- I realized I had missed the part in there where the AVA preamps can drive a 10k/1000pf load without linearity problems.
Anyway, the cable/cord discussions and debates will likely continue and that's fine with me.
I like Cardas cable better than Kimber cable. Why? Because to me, it sounds more natural. Some say it's too warm sounding. Maybe so. I tried a power cord, or two from both. Tried real hard to hear improvements. Heard none. So there.
But, believe me- I've tried some esoteric stuff from a company that shall remain nameless to protect the guilty- and it was just plain awful.
WEEZ
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Frank did something like this in the past. It was reported in Audio Basics.
As for the vendors knowing what they're talking about, that may be, but very few seem to be good at sharing that knowledge. I see a lot of "sounds great" and pseudo-science.
Much of the pseudo-science is at the level of homeopathic "medicine."
Latch onto something that is so subtle that it only effects transoceanic cables, then puff it up to be a "real" problem at 1 meter lengths.
That's how we got oxygen-free copper and ...
Hi Well, I too have questioned some of the fancy 1000 dollar cable and asked my self why. There does seem to be a difference in sound between copper and silver. Why, perhaps it's a better conductor? A lot of the points you raise are valid. I'll reread Frank's stuff. One designer I'd probably go to first is Steve from Empirical Audio. I think he has really looked in to the proper design of cables. Designers of any gear including Frank are not gonna tell you exactly how the stuff works, lay out a whole schematic for you. Maybe, because of the way his stuff functions, that cables are not as crucial in how his stuff sounds. Why one cable might sound better than another is anyone's guess, ;and I am not a designer. So I'll just listen carefully, and try to buy wisely.
Ray
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Hey Ray,
Don't go into 'lurk mode', for crying out loud :nono: !
You know, I've read the AVA newsletters off and on when I get time and they really are a good read. While some of it is dated- the basics never change. I had read the 'cable challenge' piece before; but when I re-read it again after Larry's post- I realized I had missed the part in there where the AVA preamps can drive a 10k/1000pf load without linearity problems.
Anyway, the cable/cord discussions and debates will likely continue an ...
So Weez, who is the guilty party?
Ray
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Hi:
Here is an interesting read:
http://www.avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/1990-01_cables.htm
Larry
Hi Larry, good rea, definitely good read. Now, ... I would take that same challenge and change it a bit, and repost it to a general circle. There are probably about a half a dozen manufacturers/vendors that sell or supply cable to buyers. See if you get any different results. I'd repost it for you, but I'd remove some of the obvious negative comments like well, I don't expect any results, and so on. or I'd (you should) PM these various vendors, and see what you get. If you just place out there an honest challenge, keeping all of the opinions out of it, and let's see what happens.
Ray
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Hey Ray,
Well, I try not to trash products on public forums- and my post regarding Kimber was not intended to trash them. I just think Cardas is more natural and less 'juiced' than Kimber. Believe me, the difference between Kimber and Cardas is subtle.
The 'guilty' party I referred to shall continue to remain nameless 'cause like I said- I don't like to trash anybody; and maybe some people actually like the stuff I tried. ( hard to imagine )
I will simply say the that cables is not their primary business but their claims of sonic bliss is not only false- but the sonics will take your system back to the days when you tried to listen to vinyl with a worn-out stylus.
They make some other accesories, however, that are quite nice indeed.
I still think that cables and cords are over-hyped. If you can't 'hear' the cables in your system- then you've got good ones. :|
WEEZ
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Hey Ray,
Well, I try not to trash products on public forums- and my post regarding Kimber was not intended to trash them. I just think Cardas is more natural and less 'juiced' than Kimber. Believe me, the difference between Kimber and Cardas is subtle.
The 'guilty' party I referred to shall continue to remain nameless 'cause like I said- I don't like to trash anybody; and maybe some people actually like the stuff I tried. ( hard to imagine )
OMG, now that's bad. So you got me curious, PM me with the name. I promise not to tell.
Ray
I will simply say the that cables is not their primary bu ...
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The 'guilty' party I referred to shall continue to remain nameless 'cause like I said- I don't like to trash anybody; and maybe some people actually like the stuff I tried. ( hard to imagine )...
Yeah, I feel the same way about the band U2 and Bruce Springsteen… How the hell could anyone actually like that crap?
Well maybe my taste is different then theirs – Maybe….