Question About Encores and Power to Drive Them

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 737 times.

RMarshall

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 32
  • Roger
Question About Encores and Power to Drive Them
« on: 5 Feb 2023, 08:09 pm »
I didn't want to hijack Wigand's thread. He mentioned that the Encores need 35 watts to drive them. In another thread (can't find it) it was mentioned that the Encores "love power".

I'm driving mine with an Arcam LMJ19 integrated. 50 watts into 8 ohms. I have no complaints about the sound, but these comments got me thinking. Always a dangerous thing. In general does more power equal better performance? Would it make a difference in my situation?

Also, what is the sensitivity of the Encores? They are definitely lower than my RP600M's. I have to increase the volume on my Arcam a bit to get similar levels.

Roger

Hobbsmeerkat

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 2534
Re: Question About Encores and Power to Drive Them
« Reply #1 on: 5 Feb 2023, 08:44 pm »
The Encores are 87dB sensitive, i believe the 600M are closer to ~90dB

And the amount of power they need really depends on your room and how loud you prefer to listen.
In a small to medium size room, most people can easily get away with 8-10W in most cases. (10x10 to 15x20)

For medium to larger rooms you'll probably want at least 20-50W, and with large/open-concept rooms, you'll likely want 50-100W or more to give you headroom. Id also recommend a subwoofer to help fill out the bottom end, especially as rooms get larger and speakers get pulled away from the walls.

Stephen Scharf

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 115
Re: Question About Encores and Power to Drive Them
« Reply #2 on: 6 Feb 2023, 04:10 am »
I didn't want to hijack Wigand's thread. He mentioned that the Encores need 35 watts to drive them. In another thread (can't find it) it was mentioned that the Encores "love power".

I'm driving mine with an Arcam LMJ19 integrated. 50 watts into 8 ohms. I have no complaints about the sound, but these comments got me thinking. Always a dangerous thing. In general does more power equal better performance? Would it make a difference in my situation?

Also, what is the sensitivity of the Encores? They are definitely lower than my RP600M's. I have to increase the volume on my Arcam a bit to get similar levels.

Roger

I can drive my X-LS Encores with my Nelson Pass-designed Amp Camp amps running as bridged monos with 15 Wpc pure Class A no problem at all. But, I never listen above 80 dB. Mostly ~70-74dB.

Amp Camp amps down in front. Encore cabinets courtesy of Killian.





Oscillate

Re: Question About Encores and Power to Drive Them
« Reply #3 on: 6 Feb 2023, 09:11 am »
Encore X-CS x 5 and X-Omnis x 2 are ALL I've run for the last 10 years or so.
Had them on 125W class AB, 38W class A tube amp, 400-600W class D and
25W class A solid state amp. They all sounded good :) Was 25W too little or
400-600W too much? Not really! Just make sure the amp is no where near
clipping at the volumes you listen to and you should be fine.

My favorite...? Either the 25W class A or the hi-power class D (IceEdge 1200AS2)
with a Dodd balanced tube buffer in front of it. Nice combination. Can listen
all day long without any fatigue through the X-CSs.

RMarshall

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 32
  • Roger
Re: Question About Encores and Power to Drive Them
« Reply #4 on: 6 Feb 2023, 01:27 pm »
Thanks everyone. Like I stated in my original post, I'm very happy with what i'm getting from my current setup. I was just curious about the subject.

Roger

Edward4

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 25
  • I like vinyl; learning about tube amps...
Re: Question About Encores and Power to Drive Them
« Reply #5 on: 13 Feb 2023, 08:04 pm »
Can anyone comment on using the Encores with a SET tube amp?

At first I heard that tube amps need high sensitivity. Then I heard, no, that is not necessarily important at all, they primarily need a minimum impedance that doesn't dip super low. When I look at the impedance response chart for Encores on this page https://gr-research.com/product/x-ls-encore/ it looks like it doesn't dip below 7.5 Ohms, which is fairly high compared to a lot of low-end bookshelf speakers, which can dip to less than half that amount!

Thank you for any comments you might have.

Hobbsmeerkat

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 2534
Re: Question About Encores and Power to Drive Them
« Reply #6 on: 13 Feb 2023, 08:45 pm »
We've used them with our 8W Elekit 300B tube amp without issue.
You'll be limited in output for large rooms, especially without subs, but otherwise in good shape for small to medium size rooms
For smaller flea-watt amps (2-3W) you'll beed to be in a near field or a small room setup on less efficient speakers.

The encores are designed to be easy to drive with a very even impedance.

Edward4

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 25
  • I like vinyl; learning about tube amps...
Re: Question About Encores and Power to Drive Them
« Reply #7 on: 13 Feb 2023, 09:33 pm »
Thank you. Yes, I have a REL sub on order, which I am excited about.

Regarding subs with a SET tube amp, do you recommend looking into an in-line, high-pass filter for the main speakers, as Danny spoke about in one of his videos? Some people say that by filtering out the lower frequencies going to the main speakers, it can "take the load off" the amp, but I don't know if they mean that literally or metaphorically.

I like the sound of tube amps for vocals and for single instruments, but for handling other things, they seem to require either careful matching with minimum-impedance speakers, or tube upgrades, or who knows what... perhaps because most of the modern market is tailored to the needs of ss amps / receivers...

Danny Richie

Re: Question About Encores and Power to Drive Them
« Reply #8 on: 13 Feb 2023, 10:05 pm »
Thank you. Yes, I have a REL sub on order, which I am excited about.

Regarding subs with a SET tube amp, do you recommend looking into an in-line, high-pass filter for the main speakers, as Danny spoke about in one of his videos? Some people say that by filtering out the lower frequencies going to the main speakers, it can "take the load off" the amp, but I don't know if they mean that literally or metaphorically.

I like the sound of tube amps for vocals and for single instruments, but for handling other things, they seem to require either careful matching with minimum-impedance speakers, or tube upgrades, or who knows what... perhaps because most of the modern market is tailored to the needs of ss amps / receivers...

Anytime you start filtering off the lower end it is going to make it easier on the amplifier as it reduces the amount of current demand on it.

tom739

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 60
Re: Question About Encores and Power to Drive Them
« Reply #9 on: 13 Feb 2023, 11:12 pm »
If you use the high level input on the REL sub, then don't filter your main speakers. You should try this way first before using an in line filter.

Edward4

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 25
  • I like vinyl; learning about tube amps...
Re: Question About Encores and Power to Drive Them
« Reply #10 on: 18 Feb 2023, 04:17 am »
Regarding high-pass filters... is it possible to filter out some of the bass going to my main speakers AFTER the amp?

You see... My new REL sub sounds great, and the manufacturer recommends giving the sub high-level (speaker-level) input from my amp. (And once you do this, this sub does not have it's own high-pass-filtered connection for main speakers.) But when I went to watch Danny Richie's video about in-line high-pass filters, it sounded like he was talking about filtering out the bass BEFORE the amp.

The reason I want to filter some of the low bass signal going to my main speakers is to help treat my SET amp with the care and gentleness that it might need, and not try to pull too much current out of it, on the rare occasions when I try to turn the volume up.

Also I'm about to pull the trigger on an upgraded X-LS Encore pair, and I am hoping that a high-pass filter, after the amp, will help make the new speakers work even better with my existing amp. Maybe it will help to further flatten out what the amp sees as the impedance curve. However, I'm new to all this so I could be totally misunderstanding what I'm talking about. lol.

Anyway yeah... There's just so much to learn about all this stuff... lol... I actually know two phenomenal musicians in the area where I live, and when I went to hear them perform at their houses, some of their sound systems sounded like absolute &#$(*&^$. And funds were not an issue with at least one of them. I guess that's just another example of how setting up speakers & everything else properly is something that's easy for people to have trouble with...

P.S. I do wonder why REL does not recommend using a high-pass filter for the main speakers. They probably know more about this stuff than me, so it does give me pause when I start trying to outsmart people who have been one of the industry leaders for decades, haha.

Hobbsmeerkat

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 2534
Re: Question About Encores and Power to Drive Them
« Reply #11 on: 18 Feb 2023, 02:15 pm »
Yes, you can, but it will require a ~400uF capacitor. (-3dB at ~50Hz @8 ohms or ~100Hz @4 ohms)
Which means a massive bundle of 4x 100uF capacitors wired in parallel, or a single electrolytic cap that your entire signal will need to pass through.
At the same time, impedance of a speaker isn't static, it's dynamic by frequency in most speakers, and that will have an influence the roll off.

Putting the filter before the amplifier allows you to use a small, high-quality cap in the 0.47uF-0.01uF range in most cases, (based on the input impedance of your amp and desired rolloff point) vastly reducing the size of the cap(s) needed and the overall cost to implement. It also isn't affected by the dynamic impedance.of the speaker

I suspect their reason for not implementing or recommending a high-pass filter is simply that using cheap caps in the signal path will often harm the sound quality, especially of electrolytic caps, and in the case of most retail products, they're going to be correct.