I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...

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dBe

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I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« on: 20 Dec 2009, 04:19 am »
what happened???  Who won???    Who was left in a bloody heap on the floor?????

Anybody?


Anything?

 :bounce:

Dave

Danny Richie

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #1 on: 20 Dec 2009, 05:11 am »
Postponed...

You'll have to wait until just after the holidays. More DAC's are on the way anyway, so it could get even more fun.

dBe

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #2 on: 20 Dec 2009, 05:38 am »
Postponed...

You'll have to wait until just after the holidays. More DAC's are on the way anyway, so it could get even more fun.
Drat!  I'm still in a hover mode on which way to go.  Pre-senile dementia?

See you here after Christmas?

Dave

satfrat

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #3 on: 20 Dec 2009, 06:04 am »
  Pre-senile dementia?

Dave

Hey now, I resemble that remark,,, I think?  :scratch:   :lol:

S Clark

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #4 on: 20 Dec 2009, 07:40 am »
When is this shootout and where? 

HAL

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #5 on: 20 Dec 2009, 01:14 pm »
Oh man...   I think I broke my F5 key yesterday watching this thread! ;-)

shadowlight

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #6 on: 11 Jan 2010, 02:13 pm »
did the first round occur yet?

Danny Richie

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #7 on: 11 Jan 2010, 05:11 pm »
We had an interesting first round and truly had some of the best DAC's available that I know of. All were very impressive!

There are a lot of notes that I have to go through from everyone and type up so give me a little time to compile all of it.

Things may change in the next round as we move to a different system. So I'd really like to not base everything about every DAC just off of this one day on my system. That wouldn't be fair.

We also added a second row of seating in my den. One thing we noticed as we swapped places was that our favorite tending to change as we changed seats (at least in one comparison). One DAC that had a little more bottom end was preferred in the sweet spot but moving to the second row where bass was a little heavier, the more bass shy DAC was liked. Adding some heavy foam treatments to my back wall tending to smooth those things out a little bit. Interesting to note though.

We are also still trying to get an Arye DAC over so we can have a comparison to a well known reference. Too many of these great DAC's are new or lesser known. We need a good reference.

Without going into comparisons....

The Neko Audio D100 is very good. Info on it can be seen here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69315.0 I have no problem recommending someone give it a try.

One thing that might have been holding it back some in the comparisons was that it only has balanced outputs. Cables were supplied to convert it to RCA's but the cables (seen here: http://www.nekoaudio.com/#accessories ) were no where near the level or quality of the RCA's used on everything else.

We ran the Neko on the fiber optic input from the Mac Mini.

The 32 bit buffalo DAC kit was also very good. It was running on batteries. The fiber optic from the Mac Mini sounded okay but when we plugged it in using the Ridge Street Audio Alethias USB cable, the performance across the board went up a significant amount. I have no problem recommending it as well.

The db Labs Tranquility was also very good. It is USB only and we were also using the Ridge Street Audio Alethias cable on it. I have no problem recommending it too.

Another big favorite was an evaluation board sent from Wolfson. It showcased their latest technology and we are still exploring just what can be done with it. I don't really know just yet how to handle this one. It is not really a product or even a kit. All the pieces are out there to replicate it for now, but I don't think too many evaluation boards were made. It might wind up in a product or as a DAC kit some time in the future as there was interest in this from the individual that sent it here for testing and feedback. It was really, really good!

Another one that was not bad at all and peaked all of our interest was an inexpensive Chinese made DAC kit. I really don't know much about it yet. It had all the inputs including USB. The guy that sent it is also exploring what can be done with it and how far it can be taken. It has an output tube that can be rolled, caps that can be upgraded, and it could be converted to run on batteries... So it could get much closer to the high dollar stuff for (as my good friend in Boston says) short money.

So hold on and more info will come.

dBe

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #8 on: 11 Jan 2010, 05:40 pm »
We had an interesting first round and truly had some of the best DAC's available that I know of. All were very impressive!

There are a lot of notes that I have to go through from everyone and type up so give me a little time to compile all of it.

Things may change in the next round as we move to a different system. So I'd really like to not base everything about every DAC just off of this one day on my system. That wouldn't be fair.

We also added a second row of seating in my den. One thing we noticed as we swapped places was that our favorite tending to change as we changed seats (at least in one comparison). One DAC that had a little more bottom end was preferred in the sweet spot but moving to the second row where bass was a little heavier, the more bass shy DAC was liked. Adding some heavy foam treatments to my back wall tending to smooth those things out a little bit. Interesting to note though.

We are also still trying to get an Arye DAC over so we can have a comparison to a well known reference. Too many of these great DAC's are new or lesser known. We need a good reference.

Without going into comparisons....

The Neko Audio D100 is very good. Info on it can be seen here: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=69315.0 I have no problem recommending someone give it a try.

One thing that might have been holding it back some in the comparisons was that it only has balanced outputs. Cables were supplied to convert it to RCA's but the cables (seen here: http://www.nekoaudio.com/#accessories ) were no where near the level or quality of the RCA's used on everything else.

We ran the Neko on the fiber optic input from the Mac Mini.

The 32 bit buffalo DAC kit was also very good. It was running on batteries. The fiber optic from the Mac Mini sounded okay but when we plugged it in using the Ridge Street Audio Alethias USB cable, the performance across the board went up a significant amount. I have no problem recommending it as well.

The db Labs Tranquility was also very good. It is USB only and we were also using the Ridge Street Audio Alethias cable on it. I have no problem recommending it too.

Another big favorite was an evaluation board sent from Wolfson. It showcased their latest technology and we are still exploring just what can be done with it. I don't really know just yet how to handle this one. It is not really a product or even a kit. All the pieces are out there to replicate it for now, but I don't think too many evaluation boards were made. It might wind up in a product or as a DAC kit some time in the future as there was interest in this from the individual that sent it here for testing and feedback. It was really, really good!

Another one that was not bad at all and peaked all of our interest was an inexpensive Chinese made DAC kit. I really don't know much about it yet. It had all the inputs including USB. The guy that sent it is also exploring what can be done with it and how far it can be taken. It has an output tube that can be rolled, caps that can be upgraded, and it could be converted to run on batteries... So it could get much closer to the high dollar stuff for (as my good friend in Boston says) short money.

So hold on and more info will come.
Looks like I'm going to have to drive to Iowa Park and stick some bamboo slivers under your fingernails to get some more info, eh?

BTW, the Buffalo uses the same DAC as in the new OPPO BDP83SE...

 :green:

Dave

Danny Richie

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #9 on: 11 Jan 2010, 06:23 pm »
Quote
BTW, the Buffalo uses the same DAC as in the new OPPO BDP83SE...

Yeah, it uses the same chip set. Everything else could be different. If we had just stuck with the fiber optic input then it wouldn't have fair well against the others. Using the USB (I think I2S input) was a completely different story.

mcullinan

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #10 on: 11 Jan 2010, 06:42 pm »
Would you say the Tranquility DAC is the best that has ever existed like the impressions people are leaving on that thread, or is it one of the better ones, but perspectively similar.

rajacat

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #11 on: 11 Jan 2010, 07:12 pm »
I'd like to see the new AVA dac included in the shootout especially since it uses the new Wolfson 8742 digital chip set.

-Roy

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #12 on: 11 Jan 2010, 07:20 pm »
I'd like to see the new AVA dac included in the shootout especially since it uses the new new Wolfson 8742 digital chip set.

-Roy

I don't see Frank sending one in though.  It would be nice...

Danny Richie

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #13 on: 11 Jan 2010, 10:02 pm »
Quote
Would you say the Tranquility DAC is the best that has ever existed like the impressions people are leaving on that thread, or is it one of the better ones, but perspectively similar.

I'd say that if you were looking at the best DAC solutions out there, with cost being no object, then you'd still have to consider the Tranquility. It certainly shares the top notch level. It will be give and take with some of the others we just listened to so my recommendation is try it for yourself.

Quote
I'd like to see the new AVA dac included in the shootout especially since it uses the new Wolfson 8742 digital chip set.

He was invited (in his forum) to send one.

nicksgem10s

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #14 on: 12 Jan 2010, 12:29 am »


BTW, the Buffalo uses the same DAC as in the new OPPO BDP83SE...

 :green:

Dave

Hi Dave & Danny,

I read the following on DIY a little while back. 


This was from Brian @ Twisted Pear Audio

"They are using the lesser performance ES9006 and ES9016 though, not the 9018."



I am not making any judgement about sound since I have not heard the SE version.

The Buffalo 32s is really special IMHO.

Sounds like the DAC shootout was a good time.   :thumb:

-Nick



zybar

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #15 on: 12 Jan 2010, 01:49 am »
I'd say that if you were looking at the best DAC solutions out there, with cost being no object, then you'd still have to consider the Tranquility. It certainly shares the top notch level. It will be give and take with some of the others we just listened to so my recommendation is try it for yourself.

He was invited (in his forum) to send one.

While I am big believer in ID companies and know that you can get killer value from many of them, I have yet to hear ANY audio product that retails around the price of the Tranquility DAC that can hang with or is equal to the best out there.  I know that price doesn't guarantee or equal performance, but I also know that price does play some part in the equation - especially when trying to obtain SOTA performance.

I am not saying that the Tranquility DAC can't or doesn't sound good (heck, I have never heard it and I can't even try it as I have no use for a USB DAC in my setup), but it seems more than a little "over the top" to make the claim that one should consider it if funds were unlimited.  Heck, I think I have a pretty damn good digital front end and I know that if you gave me $10k I could better it.  Maybe not by a ton, but I have no illusions that there isn't a better digital source out there.

While I applaud you for providing an opportunity to let people directly compare digital sources in the same setup, maybe a little less hyperbole would go a long way towards getting people interested - sort of the approach you have taken with other products (like the Makijk and Uber Buss for example).

George

persisting1

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #16 on: 12 Jan 2010, 02:08 am »
I'm particularly interested in the Buffalo DAC and the inexpensive Chinese DAC.

I hope Virtue had its DAC or Pre-DAC available for the shootout. 

Danny Richie

Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #17 on: 12 Jan 2010, 02:47 am »
Quote
While I applaud you for providing an opportunity to let people directly compare digital sources in the same setup, maybe a little less hyperbole would go a long way towards getting people interested - sort of the approach you have taken with other products (like the Makijk and Uber Buss for example).

If the Majik Buss and Uber Buss lived up to what I said that they would do, then rest assured that the DAC that I just mentioned will also.

I guess one mans hyperbole is another mans simple and honest answer.

I am not campaigning for any of these DAC's or DAC companies. I am doing the comparatives because it is fun and interesting. I don't really care if you try any of them or not.

I tell you what though George. I bet you will be really hard pressed to find any CD player or transport and DAC combo at any price that will outperform an inexpensive Mac Mini and a Tranquility DAC. Or for that matter, this tricked out Buffalo DAC kit being feed by a Mac Mini.

We are working on getting an Arye here for the next round of comparisons. What do they cost? Anything that you want to bring or send is welcome.


TRADERXFAN

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #18 on: 12 Jan 2010, 02:52 am »
While I am big believer in ID companies and know that you can get killer value from many of them, I have yet to hear ANY audio product that retails around the price of the Tranquility DAC that can hang with or is equal to the best out there.  I know that price doesn't guarantee or equal performance, but I also know that price does play some part in the equation - especially when trying to obtain SOTA performance.

I am not saying that the Tranquility DAC can't or doesn't sound good (heck, I have never heard it and I can't even try it as I have no use for a USB DAC in my setup), but it seems more than a little "over the top" to make the claim that one should consider it if funds were unlimited.  Heck, I think I have a pretty damn good digital front end and I know that if you gave me $10k I could better it.  Maybe not by a ton, but I have no illusions that there isn't a better digital source out there.

While I applaud you for providing an opportunity to let people directly compare digital sources in the same setup, maybe a little less hyperbole would go a long way towards getting people interested - sort of the approach you have taken with other products (like the Makijk and Uber Buss for example).

George

Hi George,
Which DAC outperforms the Tranquility?  And in what respect?

It sounds like you are making a decision solely based on price. It's a bit like saying if they charged $20k you would believe its better than whatever you have in mind at $10k.  From what I read, Danny said there would be some give and take in a  direct comparison... that seems pretty reasonable way to convey the performance, not really hyperbole.

How do we price a component? Is it just the cost of parts? or a factor of  the time of R&D in design?  If you spend about the same for parts, and about the same amount of time designing, and decide to average it out over 1000 units instead of 100, then you can afford to make one 10% the price of the other... so its not that big a reach, to my way of thinking. 

Now if a designer has some unique insight, that someone else has overlooked, it seems like that might be able to offer considerable leverage to the performance to price ratio. I don't know whether or not it is true, here, but seems possible. 

But it really comes down to how they perform, doesn't it?  Seems like a few shootouts are going to be helpful, but unlikely to prove definitive for everyone.

-Tony

zybar

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Re: I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...
« Reply #19 on: 12 Jan 2010, 03:05 am »
If the Majik Buss and Uber Buss lived up to what I said that they would do, then rest assured that the DAC that I just mentioned will also.

I guess one mans hyperbole is another mans simple and honest answer.

I am not campaigning for any of these DAC's or DAC companies. I am doing the comparatives because it is fun and interesting. I don't really care if you try any of them or not.

I tell you what though George. I bet you will be really hard pressed to find any CD player or transport and DAC combo at any price that will outperform an inexpensive Mac Mini and a Tranquility DAC. Or for that matter, this tricked out Buffalo DAC kit being feed by a Mac Mini.

We are working on getting an Arye here for the next round of comparisons. What do they cost? Anything that you want to bring or send is welcome.

The Majik and Uber Buss are indeed nice, but on their own I wouldn't take either one over my Furman IT Reference 20i.

I think adding an Ayre USB dac into the equation is a great idea.  I am sure there are others as well.  I know that the Weiss DAC2 is an excellent USB DAC and I have heard it sound very good in a few different setups.

Since I only have a single source, I can't exactly send you my Modwrigtht Transporter to add to the mix.  If you can find a local one or somebody to provide one, I think it would be interesting to have it in your comparison.

George