M3TM positioning and imaging questions

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Kreepin

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M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« on: 20 Dec 2023, 12:22 pm »
1st off
Hello everyone  :D

I've been waiting a long time to get my system setup, my house is almost done with the renovations.
I've been trying to dial in the speaker position for about 3 days now and I can get vocals to hang nicely dead center but instruments still are loose. In the dark, you can still locate the speakers. I've been from 3ft to 5ft from the rear wall and 4ft to 5.5ft from side wall, shooting straight to almost 6.5 inches of toe in (pointing directly at seating position). Equilateral triangle and sometimes pushing seating further out. No matter what I've done, I just cannot get the speakers to disappear and get the music to float out into there space.

I hope my explanation makes sense. I've tried cardas setup guidelines and I just read the thread about extreme toe in and will try that today but what are the general rules for open baffle positioning? My room is 21ft across and 8ft ceilings.

Thanks in advance




Early B.

Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #1 on: 20 Dec 2023, 01:49 pm »
We need more info. You said your room is 21' wide, but what is the depth? How far are you sitting from the speakers? No rugs? Any windows? Can you provide more pics of the room? Also, you'll need to optimize the positioning of your subs with the speakers and the room. 

Rocket

Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #2 on: 20 Dec 2023, 01:56 pm »
Hello,

It looks like you have many room reflections which are 100% affecting the sound quality.  You need at a minimum a rug for the floor and room treatments at the front refleciton points.

Good luck.

Cheers Rod

Kreepin

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Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #3 on: 20 Dec 2023, 02:04 pm »
Thanks for the replies.
Much of what you guys are pointing out are on my to do list, rugs and some furniture will help with reflections but that stuff is still packed up while we get the last few things taken care of by the contractor. I'm playing the music pretty low to minimize some of the negatives. The space is pretty wide open, leading into the dining and kitchen area

Kreepin

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Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #4 on: 20 Dec 2023, 02:12 pm »

Panoramic photos aren't the best but it's the best view I can think of

ric

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Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #5 on: 20 Dec 2023, 02:43 pm »
Yeah, is that tile flooring :roll: I can't tell how far back your listening position is. The open floor plan could be a problem as well. What type of amp do you run?
I don't know, I would try more of a near field listening. Remember that OB speakers act the opposite of regular speakers in that the closer to the corners, the LESS bass you have.
   Have you tried 6 or more feet from the side walls and then try the equilateral triangle?
Mine are toed in, but just so they cross in front of the listening position by a foot or two.
   Good Luck!
Here's an old set up guide:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0189/4544/files/Hologram_M4_User_Manual_R2.pdf

Mr. Big

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Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #6 on: 20 Dec 2023, 02:46 pm »
Your room is beautiful to live in and enjoy but for Audio it is a reverb, echo chamber with all the hard walls, floor, and glass windows. Clap your hands in the middle of your room and see what you hear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7qVu02N2vg&t=12s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7qVu02N2vg&t=12s

Early B.

Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #7 on: 20 Dec 2023, 02:51 pm »
Your room is beautiful to live in and enjoy but for Audio it is a reverb, echo chamber with all the hard walls, floor, and glass windows.

Yeah, that room won't work well for audio. If this room is your only option, then make friends with Mr. Nearfield.

Kreepin

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Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #8 on: 20 Dec 2023, 04:10 pm »
It is going to tough but it is all the space I have to work with. I moved the subs closer to the wall and pulled them out a bit more to give the M3's more open space behind them, seating position can be anywhere from 18ft to 24ft from the rear wall. I usually try and get the speakers positioned before I drag in the sofa, it's way easier to move a chair 20-50 times than a sofa. Apparently I'm going have to wait a couple more weeks to get the contractor out of the house so I can setup furniture and whatever else the misses has, that stuff will kill a lot of the reflections

Kreepin

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Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #9 on: 20 Dec 2023, 04:54 pm »
Yeah, is that tile flooring :roll: I can't tell how far back your listening position is. The open floor plan could be a problem as well. What type of amp do you run?
I don't know, I would try more of a near field listening. Remember that OB speakers act the opposite of regular speakers in that the closer to the corners, the LESS bass you have.
   Have you tried 6 or more feet from the side walls and then try the equilateral triangle?
Mine are toed in, but just so they cross in front of the listening position by a foot or two.
   Good Luck!
Here's an old set up guide:
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0189/4544/files/Hologram_M4_User_Manual_R2.pdf

Thank you for that setup guide, that's exactly what I needed. I'm getting closer to perfect

Tangram

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Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #10 on: 20 Dec 2023, 07:57 pm »
Thank you for that setup guide, that's exactly what I needed. I'm getting closer to perfect

Consider yourself fortunate you have such a big space to work with. While I understand the desire to get the system running and dialed in, there is absolutely no point (honestly, zero) in trying to set up your speakers until you have dealt with the reflections. I know I'm just saying the same thing as others but the tile, wall of windows, and glass coffee table are but three of the things I can see that you need to fix if you want to get the most out of your speakers. Just having lots of air around them isn't enough.

aniwolfe

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Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #11 on: 21 Dec 2023, 03:44 pm »
My opinion is that you have one of the better speakers to have in a challenging room. I not saying not to get at least a rug, I think you should at least get that.
Since your speakers have Control Directivity you should try the Extreme Toe-in approach that you mentioned in your top post. It eliminates most of the side wall reflection issues and broadens the sweet spot.
It takes some experimenting but once you got the positioning dialed in, its an amazing setup and also allows others to enjoy the broad sweet spot that Extreme Toe-in brings to the table.
I sit about 7.5 feet away and my speakers are about 8 feet apart. Good Luck!

Video Link > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1NP-s2p_pw
Good write up on the subject > https://libinst.com/PublicArticles/Setup%20of%20WG%20Speakers.pdf



Kreepin

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Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #12 on: 21 Dec 2023, 07:48 pm »
ric gave me exactly what I needed. This is my first time with open baffle speakers, the owners manual provided plenty of useful information, it's a completely different approach than traditional speakers. I can deal with the room issues, this really is not as bad as the last 2 houses I lived in and I got those to work.

Early B.

Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #13 on: 21 Dec 2023, 08:07 pm »
I sit about 7.5 feet away and my speakers are about 8 feet apart.

OP -- this configuration will likely work best for you. At one point, I bought a desk chair with wheels and moved it into the proper position whenever I was doing any critical listening.   

Kreepin

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Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #14 on: 21 Dec 2023, 09:36 pm »
I've moved them and the subs quite a few times over the last 2 days, at the moment I have them 29" out from the wall and 13ft apart with the seating position still kinda playing with between 10ft and 15ft. Not sure what the wife will be ok with but I'm sure she will let me know  :lol: At least she is patient to a degree and lets me be with the electronics, I don't know another woman that would allow there husbands drag in 2 monster 18" subs

Kreepin

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Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #15 on: 21 Dec 2023, 10:05 pm »
A few listening observations
(that doesn't sound right  :green:)
Someone described these as a giant wall of sound, I think that really describes it well.
Soundstage is broad and tall, extends well beyond the speakers but lacks depth (front to back) but I can't say that's a bad thing.
The edges are soft and allows for room ambience, if that makes sense.
I wish I had another amp in house to see how they would react to a different presentation, meridian has a sound that pushes everything further back vs the Cary I'm using which puts everything a bit forward.
I have to settle in for a few days and then start switching out some cables and see what happens. I threw down a few moving blankets to kill that reflection, removed the glass table and need something to warm up the space

JackD

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Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #16 on: 22 Dec 2023, 12:00 am »
I've owned a pair of M3TM's for over 6 years and they are in a Family Room also when in use.  Thirteen feet apart sound like a bit to much.  Try moving them into 9 feet apart or 10 at the most.  Moving them together a bit will eliminate any "whole" in the center and also get that left hand speaker a bit further away from that wall of windows.  As for seating position, Early B is correct if you have an "office" chair on wheels use it to determine the best listening position and then mark the spot temporarily on the floor with blue painters tape.  I would start at 120% of the distance between the tweeter and work from there.  In my room they were 9 feet a part and the listening position was about eleven feet. But every room is different which is why the need to experiment. 

Mr. Big

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Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #17 on: 22 Dec 2023, 12:48 am »
I've owned a pair of M3TM's for over 6 years and they are in a Family Room also when in use.  Thirteen feet apart sound like a bit to much.  Try moving them into 9 feet apart or 10 at the most.  Moving them together a bit will eliminate any "whole" in the center and also get that left hand speaker a bit further away from that wall of windows.  As for seating position, Early B is correct if you have an "office" chair on wheels use it to determine the best listening position and then mark the spot temporarily on the floor with blue painters tape.  I would start at 120% of the distance between the tweeter and work from there.  In my room they were 9 feet a part and the listening position was about eleven feet. But every room is different which is why the need to experiment.

Looking at this beautiful "modern" open floor plan with hard surfaces from floor to ceiling it will be tough for any speakers to sound correct in a  room like this UNLESS THEY go for the accoutic panels and rugs etc. This of course will not be possible most likely so if I were in his shoes I find another room to set up a pure audio system where I could make the room proper for audio.

Open floor plans are hard to set up furniture properly no less an audio system.

 I sold new home construction and some floor plans to me were almost unworkable for a proper setup in the living areas. Windows on one wall, the other wall the fireplace with bookshelves, which left you with one side wall, the other areas ran into the kitchen or open dining area and then the kitchen. Hard to work in one huge room with no defining walls. Give me the classic dining room, family room, kitchen, and nook area with an loft area open to the family room below. 

Kreepin

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Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #18 on: 22 Dec 2023, 05:51 am »
Looking at this beautiful "modern" open floor plan with hard surfaces from floor to ceiling it will be tough for any speakers to sound correct in a  room like this UNLESS THEY go for the accoutic panels and rugs etc. This of course will not be possible most likely so if I were in his shoes I find another room to set up a pure audio system where I could make the room proper for audio.

Open floor plans are hard to set up furniture properly no less an audio system.

 I sold new home construction and some floor plans to me were almost unworkable for a proper setup in the living areas. Windows on one wall, the other wall the fireplace with bookshelves, which left you with one side wall, the other areas ran into the kitchen or open dining area and then the kitchen. Hard to work in one huge room with no defining walls. Give me the classic dining room, family room, kitchen, and nook area with an loft area open to the family room below.

A vast majority of people live in homes that are not ideal for a simple stereo setup, architects don't care about furniture let alone electronics. I'm in Florida, we don't have basements and this house doesn't have a garage either, the house is barely 1500 sqft 2/2 with tile floors throughout, again this is Florida and tile flooring is the go to here. Is it ideal? No. Is it impossible? No. We work with what we got and I'll take a setup that is 80 or 90% of the way there vs throwing a crappy 20 speaker atmos system or soundbar in the room. My open floor plan is a very nice and spacious living area for 2 adults and a little dog, I'm grateful that I was able to demo the fireplace, knock out 2 exterior walls, enclose the L shaped patio and create the living room you now see in the pics. This is 100% better than what it was and I would rather try and make it work instead of saying it isn't.

Rocket

Re: M3TM positioning and imaging questions
« Reply #19 on: 22 Dec 2023, 06:58 am »
Hi,

I share your issue relating to poor rooms. As I suggested why not try a floor rug in front of the speakers and some acoustic panels behind your speakers. My room is worse then your's though :(

Cheers Rod