Clayton is not done....

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Rusty Jefferson

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #40 on: 27 Oct 2023, 01:35 am »
NRD I have no trust in because he puts others down the major magazines etc. Calls them corrupt etc., how does he know that?....
Pot calling the kettle black. I unsubscribed from his channel back when he refused to publicly review the X5 because he didn't care for it and didn't want to criticize them.

Well, Spatial has yet to comment on this thread and I see they are posting elsewhere on the site so I have to assume Clayton starting another open baffle speaker company is good with them. If they're all friends as someone mentioned then good on 'em. Best of luck to both companies.  :)

RDavidson

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #41 on: 27 Oct 2023, 02:35 am »
So some folks are having problems getting exact replacement parts and are blaming the manufacturer. Seems reasonable. I understand the frustration. But let me guess, the speakers were bought pre-pandemic? OK…so…the manufacturer is responsible for not foreseeing this happening?

Sorry. I see comments like this and it’s like people have completely forgotten what the pandemic did to ALL of us. I’d love to forget too, but lots of companies shut down and are still shutting down because they never recovered. It sucks you can’t get an exact replacement tweeter straight from Spatial anymore, but damn…have some sense of perspective. And as has already been mentioned, I’m sure there are excellent (perhaps better) replacement part options out there!

Vedder323

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #42 on: 27 Oct 2023, 02:37 am »
Pot calling the kettle black. I unsubscribed from his channel back when he refused to publicly review the X5 because he didn't care for it and didn't want to criticize them.

Well, Spatial has yet to comment on this thread and I see they are posting elsewhere on the site so I have to assume Clayton starting another open baffle speaker company is good with them. If they're all friends as someone mentioned then good on 'em. Best of luck to both companies.  :)

That's incorrect. I've created several videos discussing the X5, and I've also provided real-time updates in live streams regarding its status. Clayton had requested that I delay the review because of challenges related to amplifier availability. I don't mind your opinion of me, but please refrain from spreading false information when you're not informed about the situation. The X5s are, or were, exceptional speakers, and I was more than willing to proceed with the review.

Tyson

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #43 on: 27 Oct 2023, 02:47 am »
So some folks are having problems getting exact replacement parts and are blaming the manufacturer. Seems reasonable. I understand the frustration. But let me guess, the speakers were bought pre-pandemic? OK…so…the manufacturer is responsible for not foreseeing this happening?

Sorry. I see comments like this and it’s like people have completely forgotten what the pandemic did to ALL of us. I’d love to forget too, but lots of companies shut down and are still shutting down because they never recovered. It sucks you can’t get an exact replacement tweeter straight from Spatial anymore, but damn…have some sense of perspective. And as has already been mentioned, I’m sure there are excellent (perhaps better) replacement part options out there!

Dangit RDavidson, how dare you be reasonable when people are throwing a hissy fit over a $70 part.  LOL.   :beer:

RDavidson

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #44 on: 27 Oct 2023, 03:48 am »
Right? From now on, only buy products from apocalypse-proof companies! Did no one consider this?:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:

RonN5

Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #45 on: 27 Oct 2023, 01:02 pm »
Problem solutions should result in lessons learned.

There are at least two opposed theories for making speakers...use high quality off the shelf drivers and make great speakers via the boxes/baffles and crossovers....or use customized drivers.  Some will argue customized drivers result in the best sound...others will contest that point. 


With customized drivers, there can be an issue if you ever need a replacement....it doesn't happen very often, but it does happen...and now we also see that it can happen with built in subwoofer amps that have been tweaked for the manufacturer.

If you buy a speaker with customized drivers, then you might want to consider buying some spare drivers at the same time....and maybe even a spare amp if the speaker you are buying has one.

Otherwise, you assume all of the risk.

Now I know that many will say that this risk has been there forever and that it is almost never an issue....and I agree....it isn't an issue until it is.

As a big fan of open baffles, Spatial and Clayton....I wish nothing but success and great speakers from both Spatial and Clayton in the months to come!

genjamon

Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #46 on: 27 Oct 2023, 02:37 pm »
2nd Ron is a fanboy of Clayton and that is fine, but for him to say the $2,800 speaker beats the Sapphires is not even responsible, if so then Clayton overpriced his speakers. Give Clayton 6 Months then he will have a whole slew of designs out at the same price points as Spatial.  I wish Clayton success he makes a good speaker. But his starting and selling all the time leaves me cold as well as his customers.

This is a long long pattern of behavior for Clayton.  He never sits still with is product lines.  Anyone buying a product from him should be prepared for that product to be undercut shortly after purchase by some new product.  I didn't follow his work until he founded Spatial, but I bought his M1 Turbo for $4k in spring of 2015 after hearing them at RMAF 2014.  Two months later Clayton released the first version of the M3 Turbo for $2.5k and discontinued the M1 a little while later.  Boy was I red - he never mentioned any development of a new M3 for way less when I was discussing the M1 with him.  Can I blame him for wanting to sell me a product when I was ready?  I guess not, but it has made me wary of buying anything from him in the future if I have any sense that I might depend on resale value in the future. 

And sure enough, after a good, but relatively short couple-year run of the M3 Turbo series, along with continual tweaks and upgrades along the way (Triode Masters, etc), constantly keeping M3 Turbo owners on their toes, he released the Sapphires and X series to great acclaim.  I'm sure a bunch of M3 Turbo folks were probably feeling a bit burned by that, while others were excited about the new products and didn't mind their resale values tanking. 

The Sapphires and X series were sorely tempting me for years, but I could never really let go of that feeling from the M1 experience.  So, this new company and new speaker for cheaper is just giving me that deja vu all over again feeling.  And anyone buying from Clayton should be well aware of this dynamic. 

That said, it's interesting to me that the new speaker actually looks a lot like the original M-series Spatial speakers, in the dual vertical woofer arrangement, except this time with the tweeter just above the woofers instead of in a concentric design.  Personally, I think the soft dome tweeter sounds really promising - I've always been a fan of those over metal domes and the pro-audio compression tweeters in the original M-series.  There's no fundamental reason to my mind why this new design can't out-perform the Sapphire for cheaper.  Whatever you think of Clayton's business and marketing practices seem to me unrelated to the performance aspects of the speakers themselves. 

Early B.

Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #47 on: 27 Oct 2023, 03:22 pm »
This is a long long pattern of behavior for Clayton.  He never sits still with is product lines.

Small speaker manufacturers constantly need to "innovate" to stay relevant. After the first few months of a speaker launch, sales diminish and it's time to offer something new. The problem is -- there's nothing new. Manufacturers rehash what's been done before and spin it with marketing. We fall victim to the hype in the belief that today's speaker is better than yesterday's. What we buy is the best lie.

paolocaminiti

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #48 on: 27 Oct 2023, 05:51 pm »
Quote
The problem is -- there's nothing new.

That may be true for technical innovation per se but is not true for products, and we buy finished products that we can use.

So much so that there is NO good alternative to Spatial audio outside of the US, outside US I cannot buy Spatial:
- Spatial Europe (sort of distributor/its own brand), questionable differences, questionable pricing
- PureAudioProject, substantially different in several ways and questionable pricing
- Steinway Lyngdorf, waiting to win the lottery
- GR research, DIY product and problems with amps voltage
- Linkwitz, lots of differences, DIY or questionable pricing in its finished form
- LilAudio/Decware, questionable estethics, fullrange based not to everyone liking

The whole thing with Clayton has been having basically the only ready to buy, architectural grade designed OB options on the market.

I don't see how selling successful companies for an entrepreneur is a bad habit. As for Spatial - and Clayton new efforts - there is a whole market outside the US to be conquered and innovation (aka ability to create such products to win market with the right offer at the right price point) doesn't need to stop with Clayton.

DaveC113

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #49 on: 27 Oct 2023, 05:59 pm »
Small speaker manufacturers constantly need to "innovate" to stay relevant. After the first few months of a speaker launch, sales diminish and it's time to offer something new. The problem is -- there's nothing new. Manufacturers rehash what's been done before and spin it with marketing. We fall victim to the hype in the belief that today's speaker is better than yesterday's. What we buy is the best lie.

This is very common across many different industries. Some business owners continually revise or introduce new products in order to generate sales. IMO, that means many partially developed products are being sold instead of one well researched and developed product. I don't buy from these businesses.

geerock

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #50 on: 27 Oct 2023, 09:13 pm »
So some folks are having problems getting exact replacement parts and are blaming the manufacturer. Seems reasonable. I understand the frustration. But let me guess, the speakers were bought pre-pandemic? OK…so…the manufacturer is responsible for not foreseeing this happening?

Sorry. I see comments like this and it’s like people have completely forgotten what the pandemic did to ALL of us. I’d love to forget too, but lots of companies shut down and are still shutting down because they never recovered. It sucks you can’t get an exact replacement tweeter straight from Spatial anymore, but damn…have some sense of perspective. And as has already been mentioned, I’m sure there are excellent (perhaps better) replacement part options out there!
That is not true.  The reason the review was delayed was not because of his dislike for the product.  You're spreading false information and I'll leave it at that.

Desertpilot

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #51 on: 28 Oct 2023, 02:44 am »
I don't get the uproar.  The new speaker he loaned to NRD, as I understand it, is a prototype.  Clayton plans on shopping the speaker at an upcoming audio show.  If he gets a few orders, he'll make some.  If there are no buyers, he'll fade back into retirement.  When I saw that photo of Clayton in the hospital with his health issues, I was stunned.  I completely understand his selling Spatial Audio after his ordeal.  Now, a few months later, I suspect he got bored and decided to design a new speaker. 

Ron at NRD seems to me partial to the sound of dome tweeters.  So are many other Sapphire owners.  Personally, I prefer the AMT driver in my X3s.  Different strokes...


rollo

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #52 on: 28 Oct 2023, 03:49 am »
  People Clayton is moving on. No way keeping this Man down. Talent is talent. He cannot stop. In His blood. Move on.

charles

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #53 on: 29 Oct 2023, 12:26 am »
Clayton reportedly will attend next month’s Capitol Audiofest with his new speakers.  Obviously I’ll give them a long listen.  But I strongly doubt that I would sell my 16 month old M4 Sapphires to buy anything else at this point.  They simply sound wonderful in my room, much better than either of the Stereophile A rated speakers I’ve used over the past 15 years.  Are they perfect?  No - nothing is.  I still occasionally get a small bit of harshness in the treble, but I haven’t tried to isolate the cause, so I’m not going to jump to conclusions that it’s the speakers.  But even if it is, the 4s do so much right that I don’t want to quibble.  Nor am I disturbed by the risk that one of the Peerless tweeters may fail.  I’m careful about exposing them to being overdriven, or abused.  In addition, my M4 Sapphires may well be among the last ones Clayton produced, and my understanding is that he addressed a crossover issue responsible for the problem well before my pair was built.  Frankly, I consider myself lucky to have bought them when they still were available!

RDavidson

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #54 on: 29 Oct 2023, 05:17 pm »
That is not true.  The reason the review was delayed was not because of his dislike for the product.  You're spreading false information and I'll leave it at that.

What’s not true? Your response makes no sense to what I said. :scratch:

geerock

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #55 on: 29 Oct 2023, 05:30 pm »
RDavidson
My apologies.  I quoted the wrong post.  I wanted to respond to the post about the story about a review not being given because of a dislike for a Spatial Product. 

Bingenito

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #56 on: 29 Oct 2023, 10:41 pm »
This has to be the most "interesting" post on Audio Circle in long time. There is what is being said and what is not being said (could be more important). My comments below have nothing to do with HiFi and everything to do with capitalism, business operations and profit.

1. We are having a discussion on the Spatial Audio forum about a product that is not Spatial Audio
1a. Appearance resembles an M4S with a different tweeter and 2 vs 2.5 way
1b. Coincidentally caused an indefinite pause on the new Q6 release
1c. Is priced nearly 50% of the MSRP of the paused Q6 (textbook market strategy to acquire share with a loss leader and build new brand recognition... exponentially effective during inflationary times when prospects are not entertaining large purchases for fear of the unknown)

2.) No word from Spatial Audio other than a reference to the new speaker int the Oct/ Nov newsletter
2a. Implies to expect little to no news in November
2b. Any logical business operator would see none of the above as a positive
2c. No counter strategy to get through Q4/Q1 and capitalize on YE bonuses and pending tax refunds (for those who get them lol)

All of this said you have an array of decisions when running a business and each has pros and cons. You can pause the Q6 as mentioned or... if you believe in the design consider a range of alternative approaches that include accelerating the product to market and capture your fair share. Yes I did read where you do not want to play in this space however you may want to reconsider... Why?

Inflation remains stubborn and when the labor market breaks you will see many $20-$40k speakers flood the pre-owned market from companies that most audiophiles lust after. When they are sold for pennies on the dollar the smart money will snag those depreciated products... not a new $10k speaker where they are subject to similar depreciation. Think about the macro economics at play here for a moment because that will sustain business operations. I say all this to help because myself and others care... you are all good people.

FullRangeMan

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Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #57 on: 30 Oct 2023, 01:50 am »
1. We are having a discussion on the Spatial Audio forum about a product that is not Spatial Audio
And now is Spatial direct competitor. Must mention the new Spatial management has been very tolerant with this thread in his own Spatial Circle.

Early B.

Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #58 on: 30 Oct 2023, 01:58 am »
And now is Spatial direct competitor. Must mention the new Spatial management has been very tolerant with this thread in his own Spatial Circle.

Spatial management is probably having a pretty good belly laugh at some of the comments in this thread.

Spatial Audio

Re: Clayton is not done....
« Reply #59 on: 1 Nov 2023, 02:07 am »
Spatial management is probably having a pretty good belly laugh at some of the comments in this thread.

That is correct  :lol:
However... I do not discount the years of business experience that many of you have as you provide your thoughts and constructive critique of the situation. It's natural that people will speculate when complete information is not available.