[Dave-in-Cambodia]

Hello everyone.

I run an HP Deskmate with Windows 10 as my music and home entertainment server, outputting USB Audio2 via a USB cable to an Arcam irDAC (not mark-ii). The Arcam doesn't perform DAC duties right now because I have a pair of class-D powered speakers, so instesd the Arcam bridges the digital audio from USB to coaxial. The speakers are Edifier s2000mk-iii's. The app that I use on the PC is JRiver.

My problem is that at some very, very early point in the audio reproduction sequence -- presumably buried way down inside Windows 10 somewhere -- the gain is being cranked up way too high, so that I'm getting consistent ugly clipping distortion in my resulting audio signal. I can turn it down using the speaker icon in the tray, using the "Sound Settings" panel in Windows 10, using the Arcam's control panel, **and** using intentionally dialed-back EQ settings in JRiver, and all I get is quieter distortion. As so many have learned so painfully over the years and decades, gain is not the same thing as volume, and I've got too much gain, so reducing the volume isn't getting me anywhere.

Scientific method has ruled out the following:

Maybe it's the use of a digital bridge?
No, same problem with the Arcam's analog output. 

Maybe it's speaker damage?
No, the problem doesn't happen when connected physically to a phone (though it sounds bad in other ways).

Maybe it's the USB port or USB cable?
No, both have been swapped out with no benefit.

Maybe it's the source material?
No, the same source material doesn't clip on the phone.


If anyone has any ideas I would really, really, *really* welcome them. I've tried asking this in several different Reddit's and I'm getting either gibberish responses or flat-out silence. If someone genuinely knows, and it works, I'd be happy to anoint that person with a gratuity via PayPal or something similar. Right now it's just unlistenable. 

[HAL]

If you use Audacity to look at the music files you are playing you can see if they are the cause.  Lots of modern recordings due to the loudness wars can be mastered at a higher level and clipps part of the signal.  You can see that as flat tops on the waveform peaks.  You can also look at the frequency spectrum of the file for other clues.

I have been using Windows 10 for years and even with the latest Windows 10 CU, never seen the file playback cause that problem via USB2Audio or ASIO drivers. 

I would suspect either the DAC and it's Windows 10 driver if it does not clip on other devices, but that is hard to tell unless the clipping is really severe, so the phone would repro it.

Also check both the music player software and Windows 10 Audio settings to make sure they are set for flat response. 

Good luck with the diagnostics!

[Dave-in-Cambodia]

Thank you for the reply! Can you talk me through exactly what you mean by "check ... the Windows 10 audio settings" because that's either the thing I've done to no avail, or exactly what I'm trying to find out *how* to do.

So far I've adjusted a series of volume sliders that can be found by plumbing progressively deeper down into the Windows settings menus, beginning with left clicking on the speaker icon in the tray, then right clicking and getting to a first page of sliders that way, then going to control panel and choosing sound.

My own suspicion overlaps yours in two ways, albeit imperfectly: I think it's either a bad deep-firmware audio driver in Windows (not related to the Arcam), or else the switching power supply for the Arcam -- which is an after-market wall wart -- is dumping emi into the signal. But if you were willing to take a screen capture or two of exactly which settings you would check in my shoes, I'd be grateful. I suspect that I've already tried them, but just in case....

[HAL]

The Windows 10 settings for each DAC are different, so it depens on what the DAC mfg has provided. 

If the driver has any signal processing advanced features, then that can add gain and then clip the signal.

Here are some examples of a Realtek and Meridian DAC settings under Sound.  It really depends on the specific DAC mfg as to what they offer as Advanced Features.  Windows10 also has surround sound settings for some DAC's if they are going to be used with headphones.  Here are examples, but not related to your DAC.

[Dave-in-Cambodia]

Thank you so much -- really, I am genuinely grateful that you went to this trouble.

It looks, "sounds" like you don't think there's any possibility that the problem is happening on the level of a Windows 10 OEM setting of some kind? Because I've scoured the Arcam's available settings and yanked them all as far down as they'll go and still output a signal at all.

I know I've said this before, and I infer that you don't think it's possible, but it feels very much to me like the problem has nothing to do with the Arcam, and is instead happening deeper inside Windows than that. It feels like the overmodulation has already happened before the Arcam enters the picture.

[HAL]

The real question is the DAC USB driver software.  If the DAC is using the native Windows 10 USB2Audio driver, I have never seen a DAC overload due to it.  If it is a custom USB driver with controls, a lot is possible. 

I have used Windows 10 with about a dozen DAC's with USB2Audio and custom USB2 audio drivers for the DAC without any overload problems.  I would suspect the DAC or a mfg 's custom USB2 audio driver first. 

What music player are you using?  That can have a huge difference as well.  Even Windows Medial Player has controls for levels, so hard to say.  Programs like JRiver Media Center has lots of controls that if set wrong can cause problems.  Same with some media streaming software. 

[WGH]

The problem may be because you are still using the Windows drivers but you will have to do a lot of poking around Windows, Arcam irDAC, and JRiver

I would start with JRiver Audio Setup.
https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/Audio_Setup

Pick Arcam ASIO or Arcam WASAPI USB 2.0 Audio Driver to bypass the Windows mixer NOT the Realtek or Direct Sound option because both use Windows drivers and could be the source of the distortion.



If the Arcam USB ASIO/WASAPI driver doesn't show up in JRiver:

Close JRiver
Download and install the latest Arcam irDAC USB driver: Software zip file under Downloads
https://www.arcam.co.uk/product,accessories,accessories,irdac.htm
Turn computer off completely then start.
Open JRiver and pick Arcam USB

In Windows Sound Settings pick the Arcam USB Speaker setting
Right click on Speaker Icon, lower right of taskbar - click on Open Sound settings

[Dave-in-Cambodia]

Good news and bad news (not that anyone else should care, but hey).

I've made some progress troubleshooting but in the meantime I accidentally (and very gently) tugged the USB cable near where it connects to the PC and the sound got much worse in exactly the same way, accented by really loud popping sounds as one might associate with a badly mistreated LP record.

This strongly suggests to me that the problem this whole time has been mechanical/electrical, rather than software based. I disconnected the USB cable from that one port and connected it to another one and the problem seemed completely fixed for a brief moment, though I've tried so many different parameters that at this point I'm not able to rule out placebo effect where that's concerned. At all events it seems to be back now.

Tomorrow I've got a $20 USB-to-coaxial-digital bridge arriving, with which to cut the Arcam and its buggy control panel interface out of the chain. On the one hand, simplifying the chain should help -- but on the other it now seems less likely to me that this will have any effect, and the Arcam is a terrific-sounding DAC.

I welcome any reactions that this update may have inspired, and I continue to be grateful for the willingness to help. 

[Tyson]

First rule of troubleshooting - check the wiring.

[Dave-in-Cambodia]

The issue now is that I have no very good idea exactly what's wrong, and no confidence whatsoever that anyone here in Phnom Penh will be able to fix it.

[Tyson]

Might just be a bad cable.

[newzooreview]

In the first post you said

"Maybe it's the USB port or USB cable?
No, both have been swapped out with no benefit."

And then "tugged the USB cable near where it connects to the PC and the sound got much worse in exactly the same way"

Tugging the cable could certainly cause issues even if cable and port are ok, so it's possible that the original determination is still correct.

Is there any way to borrow a laptop from someone and plug the system into the laptop? If that has the same issues, then it might point to something downstream of the computer.

If a different laptop resolves things then at least you have it narrowed down to hardware or software in the computer.

[Dave-in-Cambodia]

That's an excellent idea!

[newzooreview]

If it turns out to be the computer, you might consider a streaming box, even an inexpensive one.

Allo is based in India, so shipping to Cambodia might not be too bad.

https://www.allo.com/sparky/digione-signature-player.html

Their USB output streamer is not in stock (it's been out of stock for months) but their coax output Raspberry Pi streamer seems in stock in some configurations.

You might find that feeding the DAC from a computer with a dedicated streaming OS is much better than using a general purpose operating system with an app like JRiver running among a mix of processes. Digital audio is transmitted as an analogue signal that is resolved into 1s and 0s by the DACs USB receiver. The signal also has no error correction--the USB Audio standard does not allow for the same error correction as the USB Data protocol provides. So, electrical noise and timing issues in the source computer will be audbiel.

[Dave-in-Cambodia]

I have a cheap part that I took a flyer on, arriving from China today (should I be using "flyer" and "China" in the same sentence?). It converts USB to coaxial digital so that I can bypass the Arcam altogether. (The Edifiers have a coaxial input but not USB.) Will try that first.

I'm not versed on streaming boxes so I'll need a lot of help if that makes sense. I already own a knock-off Android box, but it doesn't have a digital audio output -- just HDMI and 3.5mm analog audio.