Extreme Toe-In

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aniwolfe

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Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #40 on: 22 Nov 2023, 03:12 pm »
I found this video from Ron at NRD > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1NP-s2p_pw

I am still using this method today with great results with my X2's. Anyone with a waveguided driver (i.e. X3 and X4 etc) should try this. I feel I get 100% of the speaker with extreme toe-in. Center image is locked and reduces the small sweet spot that was annoying. Also reduces side wall and first reflection issues. Everything from lows to highs is more real. Free tweak and Happy Holidays to all here.
« Last Edit: 24 Nov 2023, 02:02 am by aniwolfe »

James Edward

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Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #41 on: 22 Nov 2023, 09:28 pm »
I’m still enjoying the extremely toed-in M3 Turbo S. Glad you brought it up…

Mr. Big

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Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #42 on: 23 Nov 2023, 04:02 pm »
Every speaker is different and the room. You have to really play with toe-in to see what works in your room.

Early B.

Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #43 on: 23 Nov 2023, 05:25 pm »
Every speaker is different and the room. You have to really play with toe-in to see what works in your room.

Yep. Extreme toe-in sounds different, not necessarily better. I did it for a while, then put them back either straight ahead or slightly toed in.   

aniwolfe

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Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #44 on: 24 Nov 2023, 02:32 pm »
Another benefit with Extreme Toe-In...I don't need to use my L&R Balance Control anymore!

VinceT

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Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #45 on: 24 Nov 2023, 06:53 pm »
Every speaker is different and the room. You have to really play with toe-in to see what works in your room.

This!

Every tweeter's horizontal dispersion is different, every room is different

Same room different speaker/tweeter - Toe in changes for best sound staging.

doggie

Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #46 on: 29 Nov 2023, 08:55 pm »
So recently I read this article >> http://thehighfidelityreport.com/extreme-toe-in/

When I click on that link it takes me to the "Black Cat Cable" website...

Interesting thread though.

aniwolfe

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Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #47 on: 1 Dec 2023, 01:46 pm »
When I click on that link it takes me to the "Black Cat Cable" website...

Interesting thread though.

Yep old links sometimes change. But check this one out! https://libinst.com/PublicArticles/Setup%20of%20WG%20Speakers.pdf

Tangram

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Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #48 on: 2 Dec 2023, 12:28 am »
I tried extreme toe-in last night after reading this thread with interest. It didn’t work with my M3S’s in my room. Center image was less defined, soundstage shrunk, and I lost quite a bit of bass impact. Still, it was free and fun to try. Just thought I’d circle back with a data point.
« Last Edit: 2 Dec 2023, 07:08 pm by Tangram »

Mr. Big

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Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #49 on: 2 Dec 2023, 02:33 pm »
I tried extreme toe-in last night after reading this thread with interest. It didn’t work with my M3S’s in my room. Center image was less defined, soundstage shrunk, and I lost quite a bit of bass impact. Still, it was free and fun to try. Just thought I circle back with my experience.

You are right. Every speaker is different, my Sapphire M3 sounds the best in my open loft area where the tweeter is right between my neck and shoulder, closer to my neck area. One thing you learn is that all rules of speaker setup are general at best as a start then you move them in and out to learn about the speaker's sound changes then the toe-in the same, so you will understand how the speakers react and when they sound their best. On toe-in when I think I got it right I will then toe-in 1/4" each way and so if I lose the magic when I do I know where I have them is correct for my room and back they go to the spot that sounded best. Now I have peace of mind.
« Last Edit: 3 Feb 2024, 03:53 pm by Mr. Big »

James Edward

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Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #50 on: 2 Feb 2024, 03:15 pm »
I happened to have a work friend over to listen- he likes music but isn’t a gear head, and doesn’t know the lingo we use…

First thing he commented on was that it sounded like the music was coming out of the fireplace (M3 Turbo S are on either side).
Next he said it didn’t sound like anything was coming out of the speakers themselves.

So, imaging and disappearing act: check.

I use the extreme toe-in and I’d approximate they cross two feet in front of the listening chair. I guess with a laser pointer and some cardboard I could measure the plane exactly.

So overall, still enjoying the hell out of extreme toe-in, and got some validation from a civilian…


abd1

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Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #51 on: 2 Feb 2024, 04:54 pm »
This is interesting and I had never seen this video before but I came to this same conclusion with my speakers. I have Cube Nenuphar Minis, which are 8" single drivers. I've loved everything about the speakers except they tend to present the headphone effect where sound, especially vocals, can beam out of one speaker or the other. I had never toed in speakers very aggressively and one day, being frustrated with the image, I moved the speakers a little closer together and then toed in so the right speaker pointed to the left outside edge of the listening position and the left speaker pointed to the outside edge of the right of the listening position. Essentially, the speakers cross probably 2' in front of the listening area. And, holy moly! The sound was awesome. Speakers disappeared, deep detailed image, no loss in bass. Only issue was the image was so locked in to the middle it was a bit narrow. Over time I slowly pulled the speakers out wider and another 6" into the room and it has continued to improve. To make sure I wasn't nuts I went back to traditional position that's worked with other speakers with a touch of toe in, and I tried no toe in, and again the sound was very L/R dominant. So, maybe depending on the room and speakers this method works. Certainly is working for me.

Mr. Big

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Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #52 on: 3 Feb 2024, 03:59 pm »
This is interesting and I had never seen this video before but I came to this same conclusion with my speakers. I have Cube Nenuphar Minis, which are 8" single drivers. I've loved everything about the speakers except they tend to present the headphone effect where sound, especially vocals, can beam out of one speaker or the other. I had never toed in speakers very aggressively and one day, being frustrated with the image, I moved the speakers a little closer together and then toed in so the right speaker pointed to the left outside edge of the listening position and the left speaker pointed to the outside edge of the right of the listening position. Essentially, the speakers cross probably 2' in front of the listening area. And, holy moly! The sound was awesome. Speakers disappeared, deep detailed image, no loss in bass. Only issue was the image was so locked in to the middle it was a bit narrow. Over time I slowly pulled the speakers out wider and another 6" into the room and it has continued to improve. To make sure I wasn't nuts I went back to traditional position that's worked with other speakers with a touch of toe in, and I tried no toe in, and again the sound was very L/R dominant. So, maybe depending on the room and speakers this method works. Certainly is working for me.

Every room is different which is why you have to experiment and all speakers no matter the design you have to take the time to learn how they interact within your room and how the sound changes as you move in and out and toe in. It takes time, my Shappires M3's can sound defused, bright if not setup right, once I got that correct it was like a totally different speaker, setup matters and your room acoustics matter.

Desertpilot

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Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #53 on: 5 Feb 2024, 05:42 pm »
Every situation is different.  I have three X3s up front (surround audio) plus two older SVS bookshelf speakers in the rear (ITU format).  The X3s are five feet out from the front wall.  The MLP is 10 feet from the X3s and 9 feet from the rear bookshelves.  The X3s are 10 feet across (from the middle of the baffle).  There are three recliners and the MLP is the center recliner.

I tried extreme toe-in.  My intention was to make the soundstage roughly equal along the three recliners.  It kind of worked but I thought the MLP sound was a bit degraded.  As I thought about it, I decided that extreme toe-in was not worthwhile for me.  My two sons only visit once every few months.  My wife (who sits in the left recliner) typically puts on her headsets and watches YouTube videos.  The reality is that I am the only one who cares about superb audio (for music).  I listen virtually every day while seated in the MLP.  So, I quit extreme toe-in.  In fact, with the wave guides, I keep my three X3s pointed straight ahead.  Soundstage width and depth are fantastic.  Sometimes, I need to move around my listening area.  Music sounds great no matter where I am located.  Of course, the MLP is the place to be for the best sound.  When my sons visit, I invite one of them to sit in the MLP (they love my surround audio collection).

We use my system for home theater.  No one has ever complained about the sound in each of the three recliners.  I suspect running Audyssey XT32 helps (movies only).  Music is routed differently and does not employ Audyssey.

My 2 cents.

Marcus

Mr. Big

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Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #54 on: 5 Feb 2024, 10:25 pm »
Every situation is different.  I have three X3s up front (surround audio) plus two older SVS bookshelf speakers in the rear (ITU format).  The X3s are five feet out from the front wall.  The MLP is 10 feet from the X3s and 9 feet from the rear bookshelves.  The X3s are 10 feet across (from the middle of the baffle).  There are three recliners and the MLP is the center recliner.

I tried extreme toe-in.  My intention was to make the soundstage roughly equal along the three recliners.  It kind of worked but I thought the MLP sound was a bit degraded.  As I thought about it, I decided that extreme toe-in was not worthwhile for me.  My two sons only visit once every few months.  My wife (who sits in the left recliner) typically puts on her headsets and watches YouTube videos.  The reality is that I am the only one who cares about superb audio (for music).  I listen virtually every day while seated in the MLP.  So, I quit extreme toe-in.  In fact, with the wave guides, I keep my three X3s pointed straight ahead.  Soundstage width and depth are fantastic.  Sometimes, I need to move around my listening area.  Music sounds great no matter where I am located.  Of course, the MLP is the place to be for the best sound.  When my sons visit, I invite one of them to sit in the MLP (they love my surround audio collection).

We use my system for home theater.  No one has ever complained about the sound in each of the three recliners.  I suspect running Audyssey XT32 helps (movies only).  Music is routed differently and does not employ Audyssey.

My 2 cents.

Marc, the 3 speakers in the front take care of having a solid center image. This setup was big in the late 50's. So in your case, toe-in is a different set of circumstances. You got a great system, enjoy!