Extreme Toe-In

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 18754 times.

aniwolfe

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 156
Extreme Toe-In
« on: 30 Oct 2019, 07:05 pm »
https://libinst.com/PublicArticles/Setup%20of%20WG%20Speakers.pdf


Tried this method on my M3 TM and it was very positive. The sound stage which I thought was very good before, improved significantly. Center image and this slight wrap around effect from left to right is what I noticed the most. Soundstage width decreased just a smidge, overall a must try, these Speakers are so light, so no excuses.

If you have tried this method please let me know your results.

Thanks,
Tom
« Last Edit: 1 Dec 2023, 01:48 pm by aniwolfe »

Shakeydeal

Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #1 on: 30 Oct 2019, 07:17 pm »
I haven't tried that with my Spatial speakers, but it is a method that works well with horns.

Shakey


SnowPuppy77

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 182
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #2 on: 30 Oct 2019, 07:19 pm »
This is about how I set up the M3TM except perhaps crossing over closer to face.  Provided a stronger center image.  Still very good off axis listening.  M3TM are excellent at imaging especially when the recording is mixed for imaging.  Well recorded chamber music really brings it out.

aniwolfe

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 156
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #3 on: 31 Oct 2019, 04:07 am »
I also perceive a more holographic presentation that I didn't notice before.
I didn't like pointing direct to head or ears, much preferred slight toe-in or straight, but this is much more desirable.

If your afraid your listening pleasure might increase by 10-20% then DON'T TRY THIS!
« Last Edit: 31 Oct 2019, 12:02 pm by aniwolfe »

HanaEyes

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 69
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #4 on: 31 Oct 2019, 04:16 am »
Soundstage width of my m4tm has never been its strength, as sound hardly ever extends beyond the sides of the speakers. I have them now crossed facing me directly, but will give your suggestion a try since being holographic is definitely a plus. Rmbed I tried this in the past, but ever since adding a sub into the system, I've never experimented again.

The thing with this article is that these results are for traditional boxed speakers, and over the past year I've realised that open baffles react very differently to boxed speakers. They seldom load the room, and also 'first reflection point' issues off the sides of the speakers is hardly an issue, because the sides of OBs are basically null points as the front and back waves cancel each other out.

This may be why the soundstage doesn't extend very far off the side of the speakers, and also left me wondering at the start, why there was little to no improvement when I added diffusion panels at the first reflection points on the side wall (made a lot of diff when I had my bookshelves).

poseidonsvoice

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 4020
  • Science is not a democracy - Earl Geddes
    • 2 channel/7 channel setup
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #5 on: 31 Oct 2019, 09:30 am »
Not to take away anyone’s thunder but this setup method has been around for a while, particularly promoted by Dr. Earl Geddes, Tom Danley, Duke LeJeune, Wayne Parnham, etc...

Bill Waslo has a pretty nice explanation:

http://libinst.com/PublicArticles/Setup%20of%20WG%20Speakers.pdf

It’s also how I setup my speakers.

Best,
Anand.

aniwolfe

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 156
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #6 on: 31 Oct 2019, 11:34 am »
@poseidonsvoice

Thanks for posting the article here. Much appreciated.


aniwolfe

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 156
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #7 on: 31 Oct 2019, 11:36 am »
No Thunder stolen.  :thumb:
Audio Enthusiasts talk a lot about things that have been around for many years. You will be surprised at how many things get forgotten. So its helpful to remind ourselves sometimes. I don't know anyone that currently sets up Spatials with this type of Extreme Toe-In setup. If anyone wants to come forward, please do and share your experience.

Shakeydeal

Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #8 on: 31 Oct 2019, 11:38 am »
I will probably give it a go this weekend. I currently have mine toed in to fire just behind my head. During the break in process, this seemed to be the best sounding configuration. Pointing them directly at me resulted in hard panned images coming directly off the face of the speakers. Now that they are probably(?) fully broken in I will play around with toe in some more.

Shakey

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10674
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #9 on: 31 Oct 2019, 01:00 pm »
For a couple of years I ran very wide mid-field setup with extreme toe-in:

1.) Single driver speakers;
2.) Room was (is) 13ft wide;
3.) Speakers were setup roughly 10ft wide and 6ft from front wall, listener 10ft from front wall;
4.) Speakers aimed to cross about 2ft in front of listener;
5.) Have 7ft long captive speaker cables so setup made possible by use of mono-blocks.

No loss of center sound stage, improved imaging. 

ric

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 363
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #10 on: 31 Oct 2019, 01:54 pm »
I also have my M3TS toed in but not to the extreme. To those who say they have not heard the soundstage go outside of the speakers, I have not had that problem, in fact, after I upgraded the crossovers on a Norah Jones cut, I heard sounds to my right and even in BACK of the perpendicular right of my listening position! But then again, this is with the upgrade AND using the DIY Hallowgraphs, which for me are essential in getting the soundstage right. It used to be as a general rule toeing them in (Hallowgraphs) made for a tighter sound and out for a more expansive sound, but much depends on where the mikes were placed at the time of the recording. Some classical orchestra's sound better with them toed in and other with it out, sometimes center--it varies.
I'm a big fan of the Spatial's ability to create pinpoint soundstaging--is only improved by the Hallowgraphs IMO.

Shakeydeal

Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #11 on: 31 Oct 2019, 01:56 pm »
The way my X3s are currently set up, I get information outside the speaker locations. The SS width is the size of my room when the recording allows.

yakbob

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 67
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #12 on: 31 Oct 2019, 04:56 pm »
So recently I read this article >> http://thehighfidelityreport.com/extreme-toe-in/



Tried this method on my M3 TM and it was very positive. The sound stage which I thought was very good before, improved significantly. Center image and this slight wrap around effect from left to right is what I noticed the most. Soundstage width decreased just a smidge, overall a must try, these Speakers are so light, so no excuses.

If you have tried this method please let me know your results.

Thanks,
Tom

I did not have my M3TS set up with this extreme toe-in, but do have my Tannoy's (also a 15" coaxial loaded driver) set up this way per their recommendations and they were right. They sound fantastic when crossed in front of the listener.

jtcf

Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #13 on: 31 Oct 2019, 05:45 pm »
I don't have Spatials(yet!) but I toe in my Tektons so they cross about a foot in front of the listening position.The soundstage is much wider and even taller now.

aniwolfe

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 156
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #14 on: 31 Oct 2019, 11:12 pm »
I did not have my M3TS set up with this extreme toe-in, but do have my Tannoy's (also a 15" coaxial loaded driver) set up this way per their recommendations and they were right. They sound fantastic when crossed in front of the listener.

Thats awesome! I hope one day to hear a pair of Tannoys!

aniwolfe

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 156
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #15 on: 31 Oct 2019, 11:13 pm »
I don't have Spatials(yet!) but I toe in my Tektons so they cross about a foot in front of the listening position.The soundstage is much wider and even taller now.

I had the Tekton before the Spatials. Nice speaker, wish I tried this method with them. Oh well! Thanks for the message.

HanaEyes

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 69
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #16 on: 1 Nov 2019, 05:15 am »
I also have my M3TS toed in but not to the extreme. To those who say they have not heard the soundstage go outside of the speakers, I have not had that problem, in fact, after I upgraded the crossovers on a Norah Jones cut, I heard sounds to my right and even in BACK of the perpendicular right of my listening position! But then again, this is with the upgrade AND using the DIY Hallowgraphs, which for me are essential in getting the soundstage right. It used to be as a general rule toeing them in (Hallowgraphs) made for a tighter sound and out for a more expansive sound, but much depends on where the mikes were placed at the time of the recording. Some classical orchestra's sound better with them toed in and other with it out, sometimes center--it varies.
I'm a big fan of the Spatial's ability to create pinpoint soundstaging--is only improved by the Hallowgraphs IMO.

I'm not saying the spatials don't produce sound outside of the speakers. I've also experienced 'knocking' coming from behind me on the right side (which is where my door is located), and sometimes get fooled into thinking someone was actually knocking on the door (Song: Airplane - Melissa Menago).

Soundstage does go outside the speaker around the room when it calls for, but I'm only describing my experience along the horizontal pane where my speakers are positioned. For me, it never extends more than 1 foot off the side of my m4tms, whereas I've heard spks that seem to extend beyond the boundary of my side wall, maybe 3-4 feet to the right of where my right spk stands.

Nonetheless, this could be a solo problem for myself as my listening room is very small, and for those of you who have space to the side of your spatials, the soundstage could extend further to the side than what I'm experiencing.

HanaEyes

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 69
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #17 on: 1 Nov 2019, 05:17 am »
I had the Tekton before the Spatials. Nice speaker, wish I tried this method with them. Oh well! Thanks for the message.

Interesting thing is I know of someone who sold off his M3TM in favour of some Tektons, when he had them both side by side in his setup. He mentioned the Tektons having a way more defined bass (which I kinda doubt), but to each his own.

HanaEyes

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 69
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #18 on: 1 Nov 2019, 05:20 am »
For a couple of years I ran very wide mid-field setup with extreme toe-in:

1.) Single driver speakers;
2.) Room was (is) 13ft wide;
3.) Speakers were setup roughly 10ft wide and 6ft from front wall, listener 10ft from front wall;
4.) Speakers aimed to cross about 2ft in front of listener;
5.) Have 7ft long captive speaker cables so setup made possible by use of mono-blocks.

No loss of center sound stage, improved imaging.

This sounds really interesting, how long was your room? Also 13ft?

JLM

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10674
  • The elephant normally IS the room
Re: Extreme Toe-In
« Reply #19 on: 1 Nov 2019, 10:36 am »
This sounds really interesting, how long was your room? Also 13ft?

Room is 8ft x 13ft x 21ft (Fibonacci ratios), includes (6) GIK 244 "full range" and (4) "range limiter" 2ft x 4ft panels, as well as three tall randomly filled bookcases on the side walls.  Room was purpose built for solo 2 channel listening in the front and office setup in the back, is well insulated, drywall walls/ceiing, carpeted slab on grade floor, and has (3) 20 amp cryogenically treated hospital grade duplex receptacles for audio each on a separate 12 gauge/20 amp dedicated circuit and are grounded together/separate from the rest of the house.