Songtower Grill Covers

DMurphy · « **Reply #20 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 02:13 am »

Quote from: cacophony777 on 22 Jun 2010, 12:22 am

I'd love to see the difference in FR plot, but it would also (or alternatively) be interesting to see if you can tell the difference in a blind A/B switch!

Well, I did take some measurements, but I can't figure out how to get them uploaded from my computer. I used to do that--but it's late. When I follow the insert image directions and click on my relevant computer file, nothing happesn. Refresher course, anyone? Thanks.

srb · « **Reply #21 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 02:18 am »

After you have browsed to the file and clicked Open, then the filename appears in the "How would you like to place the image" dialog. Are you then clicking the Upload Image button just below that?

Steve

cacophony777 · « **Reply #22 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 02:21 am »

Yeah, the UI is a bit funky. You have to click "Upload Image", and not "Select from gallery" (which is what I tried the first time just because that button was more prominently placed).

DMurphy · « **Reply #23 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 02:35 am »

Quote from: DMurphy on 22 Jun 2010, 02:13 am

Well, I did take some measurements, but I can't figure out how to get them uploaded from my computer. I used to do that--but it's late. When I follow the insert image directions and click on my relevant computer file, nothing happesn. Refresher course, anyone? Thanks.

I have absolutely no reason to believe that this worked, but I'll give it a try and then comment if there's any point.

DMurphy · « **Reply #24 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 02:39 am »

Good heavens. It worked. Thanks Steve! The top curve is without a grill, and the bottom with. The difference is not so dramatic as when I tried this with the CA15 version of the SongTower. This is with the ER15 (and 0W2 dome), which is smoother to start with. You can see that the grill shelves down the treble response a little and introduces some diffraction dips. But you should be able to enjoy the speakers either way.

cacophony777 · « **Reply #25 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 02:49 am »

Nice, thanks for posting these Dennis. What does one need to perform these types of FR measurements? Do you need an acoustically treated room of some kind?

srb · « **Reply #26 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 02:54 am »

Your graphs illustrate what I have heard with every speaker I have owned. I have performed near field listening tests - standing in front of the speaker and alternating back and forth with the grille over the drivers and not.

The bass and midrange were always the same, but the treble was always slightly attenuated - some grille cloths were more transparent than others, but I could always hear a slight difference.

Whether that is really noticeable in a far field listening position, I haven't had someone perform the A/B/A/B/A/B grille on/off for me. There are some speakers that have the tweeter's output adjusted to account for the slight absorbtion of the high frequencies with the grilles on, and in those cases the manufacturer has stated that they were designed to operate with the grille on.

For me, I listen to all my speakers with the grille off for maximum clarity, although I have heard some speakers with "hot" tweeters that could benefit from two or three layers of grille cloth!

Steve

DMurphy · « **Reply #27 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 03:13 am »

Quote from: cacophony777 on 22 Jun 2010, 02:49 am

Nice, thanks for posting these Dennis. What does one need to perform these types of FR measurements? Do you need an acoustically treated room of some kind?

No acoustically treated room, as Jim can verify after viewing my disaster area first hand. You just need a good measurement system (I use Praxis) that uses a very fast sweep signal and windows out room reflections.

JerryM · « **Reply #28 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 03:24 am »

Such great answers thus far. Gotta love AC, huh?

A couple of quick thoughts based on the previous posts...

How often is your system on and playing music? If it's "most of the time I can have it on", you're doing fine.

Does your system image well? That is, do you have a 'center channel' that isn't really there? Other channels, that aren't really there? If so, great.

Put a grill on one speaker. Now listen. Does the image lean to one side now? If so, put a grill on the other speaker. Does the balanced image come back? Remove both grills. Which sounds better? Which image sounds better or worse? Go with the one you like best.

If grills don't change anything, who cares, right?

Gotta' love this hobby, huh?

Don't sweat the measurements. It's all about the music.

Just my humble opinion,
Jerry

Nuance · « **Reply #29 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 04:10 am »

cacophony777,

In case you haven't already realized it, just ignore werd. He's a troll. Just don't respond.

jsalk · « **Reply #30 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 02:23 pm »

A little background...

When we first began building speakers, we did not offer grills. We were interested in the best sound possible and grills did not seem to fit that scenario. So, when asked, the answer was simple: "We do not do grills."

But as time went on, we would receive requests from individuals who were insistent. Wanting to satisfy their needs, we embedded magnets in the baffles and created grills. But we did this only when "optional" grills were ordered.

This wasn't an ideal situation either in that we would occasionally receive a request for grills after speakers were delivered. In those cases, we did not embed magnets in the baffles so velcro or plastic grill stand-offs were the only option (and not a very attractive one).

So we decided whether or not customers ordered "optional" grills, we would embed magnets in all speakers...just in case.

When we introduced the SongTowers, however, almost every customer wanted grills. This was a departure from what we had experienced with our higher-priced models.

So we bit the bullet and decided that grills would be standard on all speakers from that point forward. But we also advised customers not to use them for critical listening and that is still our position today.

Personally, I don't use grills and never make them for my own personal speakers (although I do embed magnets for that purpose). On the other hand, I fully understand and appreciate WAF/SAF issues and feel it is important to pay attention to them.

About a year ago I received an email from a customer who had received his Veracity HT3's almost a year earlier. I could tell from the tone of the email he was quite excited. He loved his HT3's from the very start. But after a year of listening, he removed the grills and reported that the imaging was vastly superior without them. Removal of the grills took the his HT3's to the next level. It was like discovering his HT3's all over again. Talk about a cheap upgrade!

The bottom line is that use of the grills is optional. If you like the sound with them installed, no problem. If you prefer the sound without them, magnets make it easy to remove them for critical listening. So you really have the best of both worlds.

- Jim

ctviggen · « **Reply #31 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 04:29 pm »

Personally, I do not like looking at drivers and suffer through grills because to me they make speakers look better. Also, young hands have a tendency to touch everything, and it's helpful not to worry (ok, worry less) about having a driver ruined by children.

srb · « **Reply #32 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 04:35 pm »

Quote from: ctviggen on 22 Jun 2010, 04:29 pm

Personally, I do not like looking at drivers and suffer through grills because to me they make speakers look better. Also, young hands have a tendency to touch everything, and it's helpful not to worry (ok, worry less) about having a driver ruined by children.

Just one more reason I would like to see a -2dB - 0dB - +2dB tweeter switch on all loudspeakers.

Steve

avahifi · « **Reply #33 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 04:40 pm »

The most original and inventive use of a speaker grill was one I observed many years ago at a CES show in Chicago.

In the "dumps" section of the show, there was a company selling quite large bookshelf speakers at a really low price, maybe $39 a pair or so.

This seemed to be too good to be true so I took a closer look.

Through the speaker grill I could see a tweeter, a mid-range driver, and a big woofer. Wow, a three way speaker for this low price? What a deal!

Then I pulled the speaker grill off and just laughed. The big "woofer" was just a decal! A nice photo of a woofer pasted on the box. Just like the headlights on Nascar "stock cars".

This was a really good use of a speaker grill, the best I have found to date.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

P.S. Be sure to get issue #204 of The Absolute Sound, in the mail tomorrow, there is a review in there by Dick Olsher of the SongTowers driven by an AVA Ultravalve vacuum tube amp that is the review to end all reviews.

srb · « **Reply #34 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 05:24 pm »

Back when grilles were not removable, particularly in pro audio and instrument speakers, shiny reflective woofer dustcaps visible through the cloth let you know you were in the presence of something very special !

Steve

jtwrace · « **Reply #35 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 05:29 pm »

Quote from: avahifi on 22 Jun 2010, 04:40 pm

Just like the headlights on Nascar "stock cars".

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

now, now, be nice.

ccotenj · « **Reply #36 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 06:12 pm »

^^^

next he's gonna tell us that professional wrestling is fake too...

fwiw, grills off on my existing speakers, and most certainly grills off on the ht2-tl's when they get here... and sound doesn't have anything really to do with it... it's aesthetics for me... i (and swmbo) like seeing the drivers/baffle...

floresjc · « **Reply #37 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 06:39 pm »

I have the HT2-TLs and SongTowers. The HT2 drivers are a thing of beauty, and I have a solid claro walnut baffle which is just amazing. So I like to leave the grilles off on this bad boy, but most times I have them on just cause I don't want grilles sitting around in random places.

My SongTowers have the standard baffle and the drivers themselves aren't that impressive looking, and so I leave them on. Quite honestly, I love the grilles Jim makes, nice sturdy cloth with magnets and the whole bit.

Is there a difference in sound? Perhaps a teeny bit if you were intently focused on looking for it, but I don't notice at all. Most times I'm doing something else when listening and so if I'm down a millionth of a dB at some frequency with the grilles it doesn't stand out to me.

ccotenj · « **Reply #38 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 06:51 pm »

^^^

my grills aren't in random places... they are all stacked up in my shed...

srb · « **Reply #39 on:** 22 Jun 2010, 07:38 pm »

There were some speakers I had come across (was it Polk?) that let you attach the grilles to the rear of the speaker for storage. As long as there is available real estate on the rear without binding posts in the way (it would be okay if they covered a port), I think that's a great idea.

If I order a set of speakers from Jim in the future, and there is space on the rear, I would have him embed a set of neodymium magnets on the rear as well.

Steve