Songtower questions

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gtommers

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Songtower questions
« on: 13 May 2010, 09:28 pm »
Leaning towards getting some Songtowers but had a couple questions:

On the Salk site it says that most speakers have only 10-15% of their cost in parts. Anybody know what this percentage is for the base Songtowers?

Also, are the ribbon tweeters a much more expensive part? Or is the price difference more related to something else like extra labor, economies of scale, etc?

rlee8394

Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #1 on: 13 May 2010, 09:50 pm »
I would guess that there is probably close to 50% in parts cost for the ST's, maybe more.  The reason that there is such as large increase for the ribbon version, is that the front baffle is made from aluminum. As the site states for the upgrade:

"This upgrade replaces the standard OW2 dome tweeter with LCY pure ribbon tweeters. Also included are machined aluminum front baffles anodized in your choice of black or silver."

gtommers

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Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #2 on: 13 May 2010, 09:54 pm »
I would guess that there is probably close to 50% in parts cost for the ST's, maybe more.  The reason that there is such as large increase for the ribbon version, is that the front baffle is made from aluminum. As the site states for the upgrade:

"This upgrade replaces the standard OW2 dome tweeter with LCY pure ribbon tweeters. Also included are machined aluminum front baffles anodized in your choice of black or silver."

What's the reason for making it out of aluminum? Is it purely for aesthetics?

jsalk

Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #3 on: 14 May 2010, 01:03 am »
What's the reason for making it out of aluminum? Is it purely for aesthetics?

When we designed the ribbon version, I had always wanted to work with machined aluminum baffles.  This was an oportunity to build an upgraded version of the SongTowers and it seemed to make sense.  So we did it.

- Jim

MichiganMike

Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #4 on: 14 May 2010, 10:09 am »
Quote
On the Salk site it says that most speakers have only 10-15% of their cost in parts. Anybody know what this percentage is for the base Songtowers?

http://aventhusiast.com/audio/interviews/interview-jim-salk-of-salk-sound

The linked October 2007 interview contains the following quote from Jim Salk:

"Another major benefit is cost. A retail dealer will not take on a product without a margin of at least 40%. By selling direct, we can eliminate that cost (as well as others) and deliver twice the speaker for the same money. The industry norm is to put about 10 - 15% of the retail selling price into parts. In comparison, we can invest up to 40% of our selling price in parts."

I found this interview informative and enlightening in other aspects.

A similar up to 40% figure was quoted in a 2008 review of the SongTower speakers.  http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0408/stalk_signature_songtower.htm

Regardless of the cost of the components, I have been very pleased with my SongTower speakers.  In my opinion, they offer exceptional performance and value at the price point. 

jd3

Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #5 on: 14 May 2010, 10:35 am »
I agree with MichiganMike, my SongTowers are a great value when you factor in the craftsmanship, build quality, and components used.  But the most important factor is the way they sound.  You can certainly pay as much or more for some 'brand name' speakers, but IMO nothing in this price range comes close to the ST's. 

davidrs

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Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #6 on: 14 May 2010, 12:43 pm »
GTOMMERS:

MichiganMike and JD3 are right on the mark!

Plus, Jim Salk is a gem of a guy and a standout in this industry. How many owners of manufacturing companies take their personal time to answer questions a potential buyer might have. And he is always willing to discuss your issues in person or over email.

Order a pair (or more  :D) and don't look back.

- Good luck with your decision.

David.

divisionbell77

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Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #7 on: 14 May 2010, 03:44 pm »
The drivers are stated on their site and you can Google home much they are from online vendors and see that just in the drivers alone a good chunk is already spent of their asking price.  Yes, I am sure Salk gets a discount for buying in bulk, and possibly even at wholesale prices, but the value is clearly there.

Example: the OW2 I see online for $219 a pair.  The Seas CA15RLY goes for $69 each.  In drivers alone, the ST has $500 in what we would have to buy in 'retail' prices.  Again, I fully expect Jim to gets large discounts.  This is before adding in the R&D for the initial designs, the cost of the cross overs, all components from wood to wiring, and the man hours to hand build, finish and then box up for shipping(including the price of the boxes and packing materials).

I know the AV123 Rocket line used Vifa tweeters that run around $50 and put those in speakers they sell(or did sell) for up to $2,000 a pair.

This is also one of the things that separates Salk from other internet direct companies that I have seen: complete openness of all the drivers they use.

DMurphy

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Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #8 on: 14 May 2010, 03:59 pm »
I'm sure Jim does get a better rate than I can on parts, but he doesn't buy in the kind of quantity that triggers the really steep discounts that larger manufacturers get.  Still, it's the amount of hand labor that goes into the cabinets that separates Salk from most other vendors in this market. 

Marbles

Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #9 on: 14 May 2010, 04:13 pm »
I'm sure Jim does get a better rate than I can on parts, but he doesn't buy in the kind of quantity that triggers the really steep discounts that larger manufacturers get.  Still, it's the amount of hand labor that goes into the cabinets that separates Salk from most other vendors in this market.

Maybe, but I think it's the VALUE you get that separates Salk speakers from the competition.  That is you get a product that visually and sonically is significantly above the competition at pretty much all price points that Jim sells at.

DMurphy

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Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #10 on: 14 May 2010, 04:52 pm »
I won't argue with that.  I was just comparing companies on the basis of their cost structure. 

Nuance

Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #11 on: 14 May 2010, 06:27 pm »
You can certainly pay as much or more for some 'brand name' speakers, but IMO nothing in this price range comes close to the ST's. 

I agree.  And trust me, I've been looking for a long time. 

pardales

Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #12 on: 14 May 2010, 07:47 pm »
Having heard the Salk room 3 years in a row at AKFest, and having heard other much more expensive speakers at the show and other places, I can honestly say it is hard to beat Salk for price/performance ratio.

MichiganMike

Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #13 on: 15 May 2010, 11:19 am »
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=81301.0

In light of Jim Salk's announcement at the link above that some part prices have increased this year, with a specific reference to the Song series, I would speculate the parts cost exceeds 40% of the SongTowers current price.

The bottom line for those on the fence is you should consider pulling the trigger on a SongTower purchase before a potential price increase on June 1st.

It says much about Jim's consideration for his customers that he gave this pricing alert and has been absorbing price increases on components for many months.  It is rare in my experience to find the personal service and thoughtfulness that Jim provides to his customers.

ricardojoa

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Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #14 on: 19 May 2010, 09:52 am »
Sure Salk speakers are great, but they are certianly expensive.
I dont get how they charge 700 for a ribbon upgrade on the ST. Lets say the ribbon are 200 more over the dome twetter (pair), where did the 500 invested? Aluminum baffles cost that much?

jtwrace

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Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #15 on: 19 May 2010, 01:28 pm »
Sure Salk speakers are great, but they are certianly expensive.
I dont get how they charge 700 for a ribbon upgrade on the ST. Lets say the ribbon are 200 more over the dome twetter (pair), where did the 500 invested? Aluminum baffles cost that much?

Welcome to A.C.!!! 

Umm.  Have you heard of R&D?  There is an entirely different crossover network for one.  I'm sure there are also different cabinets. 

Maybe Jim will chime in and explain the not obvious as well.  In my mind it's simple, if you don't want to purchase them, don't.  Again welcome to A.C. and doing business in the USA.   :thumb:

K Shep

Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #16 on: 19 May 2010, 01:46 pm »
Sure Salk speakers are great, but they are certianly expensive.
I dont get how they charge 700 for a ribbon upgrade on the ST. Lets say the ribbon are 200 more over the dome twetter (pair), where did the 500 invested? Aluminum baffles cost that much?

There was a running joke (I didn't find it funny) from a member here who chimed into threads in the Salk Circle posting "did you order the Bubinga?"  Bubinga is a type of veneer.  Said member complained that Salk owners are more concerned by the look and finish of the speakers than the sound performance.  Then he attended a get together were he laid his eyes, ears and hands on a pair of Salk speakers.  I never heard him chime in about the veneer again.  The build quality from Salk Sound is excellent! 

Expensive to you isn't expensive to me.  As a former owner of a pair of SongTower ribbons, I recommend taking the opportunity to sit in front of a pair and draw your own conclusion.  You will be able to find a member on this site that will invite you into their home for an audition.


DMurphy

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Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #17 on: 19 May 2010, 01:59 pm »
Sure Salk speakers are great, but they are certianly expensive.
I dont get how they charge 700 for a ribbon upgrade on the ST. Lets say the ribbon are 200 more over the dome twetter (pair), where did the 500 invested? Aluminum baffles cost that much?

Jim obviously would know the specifics (and is equally obviously under no obligation to disclose them), but it cost a chunk of change to set up the machining for the aluminum baffle.  And the crossover is more complex--the ribbon requires more careful contouring at the low end to keep it out of danger, and all ribbons with quasi-horn loading have a rising response at the top that has to be flattened.  I don't know whether all that (and the extra expense of the tweeters) adds up to $700, but in any event people who actually have to make a living off of a business generally don't price options at cost.   


HAITIMAN

Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #18 on: 19 May 2010, 03:01 pm »
There was a running joke (I didn't find it funny) from a member here who chimed into threads in the Salk Circle posting "did you order the Bubinga?"  Bubinga is a type of veneer.  Said member complained that Salk owners are more concerned by the look and finish of the speakers than the sound performance.  Then he attended a get together were he laid his eyes, ears and hands on a pair of Salk speakers.  I never heard him chime in about the veneer again.  The build quality from Salk Sound is excellent! 

Expensive to you isn't expensive to me.  As a former owner of a pair of SongTower ribbons, I recommend taking the opportunity to sit in front of a pair and draw your own conclusion.  You will be able to find a member on this site that will invite you into their home for an audition.

Well said. I took delivery of a set of Songtowers on May 3rd and for me, they are the bargain of the century at $1795, (silk dome tweet). At the price point, you would be hard pressed to beat them in presentation, quality of parts, design execution, and, yes, build quality/fit & finish. I happened to be in Best Buy last weekend and just for fun gave a quick listen to a pair of Vienna Acoustics/Mozart Grand model.....sorry...but at $1,500 dollars.......each......ummm......sorry I even had to bring this up.

jsalk

Re: Songtower questions
« Reply #19 on: 19 May 2010, 07:41 pm »
Sure Salk speakers are great, but they are certianly expensive.
I dont get how they charge 700 for a ribbon upgrade on the ST. Lets say the ribbon are 200 more over the dome twetter (pair), where did the 500 invested? Aluminum baffles cost that much?

First, let me say that the SongTower "RT" version was designed well after we started producing the SongTower QWT's.  The RT version was priced out and we simply subtracted the existing price of the SongTowers to calculate the difference.  So it is may be less a matter of the ribbon tweeter option being expensive, but more the fact that the SongTowers were priced too low initially.  This will be adjusted on June 1st and the price of the RT upgrade will certainly not go up at that time.  I might also point out that machined aluminum baffles are quite costly as well.

On the basic matter of pricing, I have a few comments...

There are basically three things that determine the cost of a speaker.  The first is the cabinet, the second is the parts (drivers, crossover parts, etc.) and the third is the distribution model.

There is no secret to producing moderate quality speakers at a very reasonable cost. 

First, you have the cabinets manufactured in Asia.  The quality is fairly good, but you have to be willing to purchase in container loads and wait.  This means you must settle on two or three finishes as you cannot possibly offer custom finishes (you would not know what combinations to order six months in advance). You also have to accept the risk of having fit and finish issues (you can't simply send them back for re-work).

The second thing you do is look for moderate quality drivers you can purchase at a low cost.  You'll never get a "great" speaker by doing this, but you certainly can control costs.

There are many, many companies that use this formula.  In fact, very few brands available at retail are done any other way.  I know of one company that offers speakers under at least a dozen brand names.  They all used to be produced in the US.  They now have 20 or so US employees processing all orders for all those brands.  All the manufacturing is done in Asia.

So if that is what a consumer is interested in, there are plenty of companies already offering this type of speaker.  We simply have no interest in inventorying and shipping boxes of speakers made elsewhere.  We want to build them ourselves.  And we want to use the best drivers for each individual design.

No doubt, our model is more costly.  We simply can't compete with Asian labor rates.  And we do pay more for the drivers we use than we would if we sourced lesser quality drivers from Asia.

But we couldn't offer products with sound quality we would want to put our name one.  And our customers would not have a virtually unlimited choice of finishes.

The only pricing advantage we have is that we do not sell through dealers who need a 40% markup just to take on a line of speakers.

While our cabinets are vastly more expensive to build and the parts we use are more expensive as well, we would not hesitate to put our speakers up against any retail speakers at twice the price.  Anytime.  Anywhere. 

I am always amused when someone adds up the cost of the drivers and wonders how a certain price can be justified.  It's as if drivers are the only cost involved and everything else is free.  The fact is, the cabinets almost always cost more than the drivers.

When establishing pricing, there are many areas of cost that must be considered.  Until you actually build them for a living, you simply won't recognize most of them.  For example, the finish (sealer, lacquer, etc.) we use costs about $100 per pair of speakers.  Tooling is also something you have to build into the price of a speaker.  We took six routers in for repair this week.  We go through about $200 - 300 in sandpaper in a given month.  The list goes on and on.

In fact, some months, credit card processing fees we pay in order to accept credit cards actually exceed our profit for the month!

From the very beginning, we have always priced our products as low as possible.  We started building speakers because we wanted to put great sound within the reach of the average person.  While we can't perform miracles, we are proud of what we have accomplished in this regard.

We feel we have the best speakers in the world under $2000 in the SongTowers (of course we are biased, but we are not the only ones who think so - see our reviews and check out the next issue of The Absolute Sound).  The same holds true at $3000, $4000, $6000 and $10,000 with the new SoundScapes.

While we could change our model and produce speakers at a lower cost, we simply have no interest in doing so.  As indicated above, there are many companies already doing this.  But I am not aware of any other company that offers the sound quality we offer at the prices we charge.  Add to that the fact that the owner can have them custom-finished to their personal taste, and we feel we offer a unique package that has no equals.

There are many, many options out there when searching for new speakers.  Each person will rate what is important to them.  If cost is the most important criteria, chances are they will look elsewhere.  And that is perfectly OK.  We simply try and provide the best product we can, at the best price we can offer and be as responsive as possible where customer service is concerned.
 
In the end, we know our business model will not allow us to please everyone.  But, this model has allowed us to build a very satisfied and loyal customer base that has grown consistently at about 35% year to year.  That is just fine with us and we see no need to change now.

I hope this makes sense.

- Jim