[Wayner]

Nousaine told me that he could tell alot about speaker imaging by listening to one speaker only (I assume because of dispersion characteristics).

I don't mean to pick and don't take this the wrong way, but that's like knowing how a new car handles on the road, sitting in the back seat. While I agree that the mono/mono test may have some validity in comparing a speaker's smooth output across the audio spectrum (at least a sound that the consumer may like), you need to have both speakers going in a properly set up room, in real world listening environment to hear how it produces a sound field. When we were at RMAF with Jim and Dennis, we destroyed the sound field by over damping the speakers. That was something that I or Jim or Frank Van Alstine ever witnessed, the fact that an over damped room could take a marvelous speaker like the Soundscape 12 and raise havoc with the imaging. I agree with part of your process, but the truth comes out in the end by listening to the stereo pair.

Wayner 

[randybessinger]

Nousaine told me that he could tell alot about speaker imaging by listening to one speaker only (I assume because of dispersion characteristics).

I don't mean to pick and don't take this the wrong way, but that's like knowing how a new car handles on the road, sitting in the back seat. While I agree that the mono/mono test may have some validity in comparing a speaker's smooth output across the audio spectrum (at least a sound that the consumer may like), you need to have both speakers going in a properly set up room, in real world listening environment to hear how it produces a sound field. When we were at RMAF with Jim and Dennis, we destroyed the sound field by over damping the speakers. That was something that I or Jim or Frank Van Alstine ever witnessed, the fact that an over damped room could take a marvelous speaker like the Soundscape 12 and raise havoc with the imaging. I agree with part of your process, but the truth comes out in the end by listening to the stereo pair.

Wayner 

Why would I take it the wrong way? 

Sean Olive pointed out to me that an overdamped (or dead) room will sort of equal the playing field for speakers and you may not be able to judge imaging very well. I can pull out the quote if you like.  I think that is one of the problems in trying to evaluate a speakers imaging qualities....the room and let's fact it who has a perfectly symetrical room (not even counting the fact that if you are evaluating two sets of speakers, one set is not going to be in the same spot(s) as the other).  That and small adjustments to speaker positioning can make all difference in the world. I am not sure where we are disagreeing other than perhaps you thought I was the one that said I could detect how a speaker will image with one speaker.  All I am doing is quoting some well known (and very well respected people) in my quest to do as good a blind speaker test as possible.  I abandoned the idea of the mono vs. mono approach because I anticipated people would reject it because a speakers imaging qualities are one of the "magic" things about stereo.  That being said, I recognize the limitations inherent in putting too much emphasis on imaging unless you happen to have Sean's Harmon set-up (which he did not offer to let me use)

[Wayner]

Actually, I think we are in agreement, mostly. I may have mis-understood your direction, but I have no problem with it. I just don't want people to think that the mono/mono test is the end of the story.

Wayner 

[randybessinger]

Nousaine told me that he could tell alot about speaker imaging by listening to one speaker only (I assume because of dispersion characteristics).

Nousaine said that? Discerning imaging with one speaker source, would be like discerning depth perception with one eye. It sure seems like an odd statement of something that shouldn't work.....

He did say that to me when I went to CES two years ago.  I can get further clarification if you like but he did say it. I don't recall the exact quote but I will write him and ask him again if people are that interested.  Frankly, I was skeptical but then again isn't a speakers imaging determined greatly by it's off-axis performance (along with interaction with the room).  Unless the speakers are badly out of spec, that off-axis performance is in each speaker not just some complmentary thing that makes it image.

As I recall, he said something (and this was when we were sitting auditioning a speaker that shall go nameless) that the sound will kind of just "hang" or some equivalent word in front of the speaker instead of sort of expanding out.  I am probably badly misquoting.

Edit-better clarification by Tom-If the sound just sticks to the speakers or drivers it will not be a good imaging speaker,  sound should disappear without locus (had to look it up-latin for place) for good imaging.

Are you Jeff B. as in Jeff Bagby?

[randybessinger]

@clipped
@randybessinger

Would you bundle the HT1-TL into that HT3 vs. SongTower conclusion? I didn't get to compare the HT1-TL to an HT3, although my budget wouldn't accomodate an HT3 at this point.

It is interesting, though, that one thing that underscored for me some of the things that I didn't like about my previous speakers was listening to the new Beatles mono remasters.

My speaker shoot out will be bookshelfs. I think a true blind test of full range speakers (or at least floor standing) is beyond my capabilities at this point.  I am still trying to determine if I will crossover the bookshelfs at some predetermined point and not use subs.  The whole bass thing can skew the results in my opinion....then again I guess it depends one what the goal is.....any ideas?  To do this right is not trivial in my humble opinion.  Right now, I have in my house, Aerial 5b's, Songtower bookshelfs (surrounds), Ascend Sierras, Outlaw Bookshelfs, Era bookshelfs, Emotiva Bookshelfs, Earl Geddes Harper speaker, and this Tweak City bookshelf )WAF-1 that Richie did the crossover for.    Not sure I will use all of them because I don't want to die of old age before I finish (not to mention the participants).  I am going to make it DB as much as I can as I will also not know the identity of which speaker is playing (but I will know what two speakers are being compared). 

I am all for help in developing protocols so feel free to give me advice although it probably isn't appropriate for this thread.

P.S.  I wish I could have got in on the Beatles mono remasters. I waited to long although Amazon is still showing some coming in Nov. 4th.

[floresjc]

newzooreview -

I thought I would chime in with a few of my impressions, because I live in Centreville, VA (next to Fairfax) and spent a morning with Dennis in April listening in the same manner you did. At the time, he had the AVA amp, but he did not have the preamp, which was a pretty recent acquisition. He also did not have the HT1-TL, although I believe it was in work at the time. So he switch boxed an HT3, a normal HT2, a ST (dome), and my Rocket 760.

We started out upstairs with the ST, and  as you know, its a decent size room with a couch and wood floors. He basically sat me down, went over to the amp and just cranked it on some busy orchestral piece. I was pretty floored right away, because for their size, I thought a vanilla ST had quite a bit of bass, sounded great at very loud volumes, and really had a great soundstage that I hadn't experienced with my Rockets. He hooked my Rocket up to the right channel and balanced the music back and forth, and it was fairly apparent that the midrange on my speaker was not up to snuff and I was sold on an upgrade right then and there, but to what I didn't know yet.

We proceeded to carry everything down to the basement and switchbox the snot out of stuff. Overall, considering the price differential, I thought the ST did very well to hold its own vs the other speakers (in the list I mentioned at the beginning of the write up). Overall, the ST probably felt less refined than the HT3 or HT2, but I felt at times the soundstage or depth was superior coming out of one speaker. But this was kind of dependent on program material, some times the HT2/HT3 was better, sometimes the ST, and quite a bit of the time, didn't seem to matter. They could all play quite loud very cleanly, and one at a time, sounded very accurate with regards to timbre and so forth.

The major conclusion that I came to was that the ST performed very well in terms tonal accuracy/timbre, played very cleanly, had nice bass extension, was small and fairly light, and they were easy to drive...meaning it was a speaker I could live with for the next 10 or 20 years and be really happy with. It didn't do anything wrong in my opinion, but switching it up with an HT3 was going to show areas it didn't do as well and let me decide if the shortcomings or the money was worth it. Spending more money and moving up the Salk lineup was going to mainly get me two things. The first was increased bass extension and oomph. While quite good the ST is no HT3 in this department. The second would be that last 5% in the tonal accuracy/timbre department. I play the drums, and while switchboxing all those speakers, I could tell a difference in the ST versus the ribbon HT2/HT3/HT4 in some of the cymbal work, snare drum rim shots and things like triangles or bells/chimes. The ST handled these quite well, certainly better than my Rockets, but hooked all together like that, I could tell the difference and to me the money to go up for my two channel was worth it considering the many years they would be in my home.

The HT1-TL was not an option for me, and if the only difference is a little less efficiency, your amp will overcome that. So I really think the HT1-TL is a very strong release, so much so that I would project that there won't be anymore ST-RT demand. The lineup will really stabilize out to ST dome, HT1-TL, HT2-TL, HT3, and HT4. As I said above, I really think the ST is a fun speaker that is very accurate, it has a sizzle to it. I just wanted to go with a Veracity line purchase, and have the magic of the ribbon and that Seas driver (well I ended up getting a bunch of stuff, but in any case you get my point).

[Jeff B.]

Nousaine told me that he could tell alot about speaker imaging by listening to one speaker only (I assume because of dispersion characteristics).

Nousaine said that? Discerning imaging with one speaker source, would be like discerning depth perception with one eye. It sure seems like an odd statement of something that shouldn't work.....

He did say that to me when I went to CES two years ago.  I can get further clarification if you like but he did say it. I don't recall the exact quote but I will write him and ask him again if people are that interested.  Frankly, I was skeptical but then again isn't a speakers imaging determined greatly by it's off-axis performance (along with interaction with the room).  Unless the speakers are badly out of spec, that off-axis performance is in each speaker not just some complmentary thing that makes it image.

As I recall, he said something (and this was when we were sitting auditioning a speaker that shall go nameless) that the sound will kind of just "hang" or some equivalent word in front of the speaker instead of sort of expanding out.  I am probably badly misquoting.

Are you Jeff B. as in Jeff Bagby?

Yes, That's me. 

[Nuance]

newzooreview and floresjc,

You both made the right decision.  Don't let anyone else or their opinions challenge that.  Just enjoy! 

Randy,

I very much look forward to your blind test, if in fact if does take place.  I commend you for your efforts and hard work. 

[newzooreview]

@nuance

No problem--I've been enjoying the discussion. Sounds like floresjc made a similar decision to mine to get an HT model (although neither of us had a SongTower RT to compare to). In any case the HT1-TL will have more bass extension; I love the look of the SEAS woofer; my amp can handle the lower efficiency; I can sell my subwoofer now--no regrets!

[Nuance]

Sell your subwoofer?  Why?

I sound like a broken record, but keep the subwoofer just in case, and here is why:

The best location in your room for bass response will usually never be the best spot for a wide sound stage and pinpoint imaging.  Generally most people find the best spot for the sound stage and imaging and place the speakers in said location.  But now you're forced to deal with the bass response of where those speakers were placed, even if it's bad (listen and measure to determine this).  However, if you still cross over to a subwoofer you can place that subwoofer in the best spot for in-room low end response, thus getting the best of both worlds (best in-room bass, and best placement of speakers for soundstage, linearity and imaging). 

That's just my $0.02, and YMMV, of course.  Personally, I think 2-channel should always be (at least) 2.1 channel.  This is, of course, unless you've built a dedicated room with THICK treatments to fix the already determined bass modes.  The latter is not common, though. 

Anyway, enjoy!

<Flame suit engaged> 

[newzooreview]

@nuance

I don't have much flexibility in placement in my room (for the speakers or the subwoofer). The good thing is that other speakers have produced good bass in the available location, and I've also gotten good imaging with placement there. So, I expect that I won't need the subwoofer. I'll give a try, however.

[Nuance]

Understood.   

My advice is to keep it around just in case.  The speakers will go where they need to go (limited options, as most people have), but a subwoofer can be placed in multiple locations.  If you do decide to keep the sub, try it out in various locations and leave it where it sounds and measures best.   Basically the subwoofer should be used if you aren't happy with your bass response, i.e., you think there is too much, too little, it's boomy, it lacks punch, etc.  This will be solely determined by your room modes, as the speakers themselves are very capable down low (you should know). 

In my room, I really had no choice.  I couldn't place the speakers anywhere else, and I couldn't move the seating position due to a support pole right behind it, so going with subs was necessary to EQ my room modes (by EQing the subs themselves).  Boy am I happy with the in-room bass response now!    

Anyway, concerning your room, only time and listening experience will tell. 

Enjoy!

[randybessinger]

Nousaine told me that he could tell alot about speaker imaging by listening to one speaker only (I assume because of dispersion characteristics).

Nousaine said that? Discerning imaging with one speaker source, would be like discerning depth perception with one eye. It sure seems like an odd statement of something that shouldn't work.....

He did say that to me when I went to CES two years ago.  I can get further clarification if you like but he did say it. I don't recall the exact quote but I will write him and ask him again if people are that interested.  Frankly, I was skeptical but then again isn't a speakers imaging determined greatly by it's off-axis performance (along with interaction with the room).  Unless the speakers are badly out of spec, that off-axis performance is in each speaker not just some complmentary thing that makes it image.

As I recall, he said something (and this was when we were sitting auditioning a speaker that shall go nameless) that the sound will kind of just "hang" or some equivalent word in front of the speaker instead of sort of expanding out.  I am probably badly misquoting.

Are you Jeff B. as in Jeff Bagby?

Yes, That's me. 

Well, I have lots of repect for you and you would know for more about this kind of thing than me.

[clipped]

I don't think there is a best way to determine speaker sound and performance.
It is a personal choice as to the method, mono-mono or stereo or vodoo, whatever
 I believe in using everything to help make the best choice for your own ears and musical taste.
The reason I brought up mono-mono was to simply make a suggestion to others, one that I thought could be helpful.
The person who gave me this tip was Frank Van Alstine, so I figured he might know a little bit more than me, maybe
Bottom line whatever turns you on
Happy listening all.