AudioCircle
Industry Circles => Salk Signature Sound => Topic started by: cacophony777 on 21 Jun 2010, 09:16 pm
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While we're on the subject of scientific basis for decisions ...
What kind of effect do the grills have on the Songtowers? Has anybody done a frequency response comparison?
I feel more comfortable leaving these beauties protected most of the time :D
but if going grill-less makes a noticeable difference I'll have to reconsider.
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You are kidding right?
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Nope. he's serious... its a beaut... :thumb:
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Wow, thanks for the insight guys. You've been real helpful.
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Don't know if Jim's taken any measurements, but he recommends removing the grills when listening. There's a thread somewhere here where he talks about it. I leave them on for 'protection' but remove them when I'm listening.
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Cacophonny
I am going to give you some real good advice and i hope you take it into consideration. To get started you want to develop your own tastes. Make them your own, its good to get help but really the end result should be a very personal development of your own taste. This question trumpets your lack of personal involvement with your own gear. To answer your question, try them both on and off. What ever you like better go with..... :thumb:
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I never have put my grills on, infact I never unwrapped them.
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Cacophonny
I am going to give you some real good advice and i hope you take it into consideration. To get started you want to develop your own tastes. Make them your own, its good to get help but really the end result should be a very personal development of your own taste. This question trumpets your lack of personal involvement with your own gear. To answer your question, try them both on and off. What ever you like better go with..... :thumb:
I have tons of "personal involvement" with my gear. I listen to music every night.
But I'm also relatively new to this, and thus don't always know what to listen for. I also don't trust my auditory memory unless it's a very obvious and significant difference (and based on what I've read neither should you). Different speakers make this type of significant difference that's immediately obvious to me. Nothing else I've heard (amps, source, cables) has made any difference at all as far as I can tell.
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While we're on the subject of scientific basis for decisions ...
What kind of effect do the grills have on the Songtowers? Has anybody done a frequency response comparison?
I feel more comfortable leaving these beauties protected most of the time :D
but if going grill-less makes a noticeable difference I'll have to reconsider.
Hi I took some measurements once and posted them, but good luck finding them. I'll try and measure again tonight. It makes an obvious difference in the plots, but I'm not claiming that difference would translate into an audible difference that would survive an A-B test. But at least I can document that it does change the frequency response.
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I have tons of "personal involvement" with my gear. I listen to music every night.
But I'm also relatively new to this, and thus don't always know what to listen for. I also don't trust my auditory memory unless it's a very obvious and significant difference (and based on what I've read neither should you). Different speakers make this type of significant difference that's immediately obvious to me. Nothing else I've heard (amps, source, cables) has made any difference at all as far as I can tell.
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List your gear and maybe i can help...... What source are you using?, what amp,etc. You should be hearing differences.
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List your gear and maybe i can help...... What source are you using?, what amp,etc. You should be hearing differences.
The only upgrade I've made with my own setup is speakers.
I was referring to auditions I've made. Every speaker I auditioned had a very distinct sound, but when I tried different amps, sources, etc, (with the same pair of speakers) I never was able to hear any differences. I was not able to quickly A/B, so there was a couple minute delay between these switches.
edit: I have heard a small difference between two DACs, but it required fast and regular A/B switching.
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Hi I took some measurements once and posted them, but good luck finding them. I'll try and measure again tonight. It makes an obvious difference in the plots, but I'm not claiming that difference would translate into an audible difference that would survive an A-B test. But at least I can document that it does change the frequency response.
I'd love to see the difference in FR plot, but it would also (or alternatively) be interesting to see if you can tell the difference in a blind A/B switch!
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So you don't want to list your gear....? No one is going to flame you over gear.
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So you don't want to list your gear....? No one is going to flame you over gear.
I have no problem listing my gear (it's in other threads...):
Songtowers (with Sonicap bypass caps :green: )
Onkyo A-9555 integrated amp
Onkyo C-S5VL SACD player (has the Wolfson WM8742 DAC)
Monoprice 12 guage speaker wire, banana plugs, and interconnect
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Do you run your Sacd into the integrated by analogue or digital connect? Try using a digital connect.
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Do you run your Sacd into the integrated by analogue or digital connect? Try using a digital connect.
The amp only has analog inputs, so nothing I can try there...
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The amp only has analog inputs, so nothing I can try there...
Ok, this is where you want to head. You want to be able to hear a difference in gear swaps. It looks like the gear you have is unable to resolve the music enough to make difference . I would look at the integrated as the culprit. I know i piped on about sources but i think that integrated is just polluting out all your resolution. If you are ever looking to upgrade i would start there with a full out analogue integrated or pre/power combo. Stay away from all out digital integrateds as an upgrade.
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Do you run your Sacd into the integrated by analogue or digital connect? Try using a digital connect.
Looking at the A-9555 it does not have any digital inputs.
Bill
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Looking at the A-9555 it does not have any digital inputs.
Bill
at first glance i thought it might...
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I actually prefer the looks of my speakers with the grills on. Gives them a much more "finished' appearance. Jim should consider putting some pictures on his site.
I listen to my stereo almost every day though, so the grills don't get much use.
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I'd love to see the difference in FR plot, but it would also (or alternatively) be interesting to see if you can tell the difference in a blind A/B switch!
Well, I did take some measurements, but I can't figure out how to get them uploaded from my computer. I used to do that--but it's late. When I follow the insert image directions and click on my relevant computer file, nothing happesn. Refresher course, anyone? Thanks.
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After you have browsed to the file and clicked Open, then the filename appears in the "How would you like to place the image" dialog. Are you then clicking the Upload Image button just below that?
Steve
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Yeah, the UI is a bit funky. You have to click "Upload Image", and not "Select from gallery" (which is what I tried the first time just because that button was more prominently placed).
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Well, I did take some measurements, but I can't figure out how to get them uploaded from my computer. I used to do that--but it's late. When I follow the insert image directions and click on my relevant computer file, nothing happesn. Refresher course, anyone? Thanks.
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=31913)
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=31914)
I have absolutely no reason to believe that this worked, but I'll give it a try and then comment if there's any point.
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Good heavens. It worked. Thanks Steve! The top curve is without a grill, and the bottom with. The difference is not so dramatic as when I tried this with the CA15 version of the SongTower. This is with the ER15 (and 0W2 dome), which is smoother to start with. You can see that the grill shelves down the treble response a little and introduces some diffraction dips. But you should be able to enjoy the speakers either way.
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Nice, thanks for posting these Dennis. What does one need to perform these types of FR measurements? Do you need an acoustically treated room of some kind?
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Your graphs illustrate what I have heard with every speaker I have owned. I have performed near field listening tests - standing in front of the speaker and alternating back and forth with the grille over the drivers and not.
The bass and midrange were always the same, but the treble was always slightly attenuated - some grille cloths were more transparent than others, but I could always hear a slight difference.
Whether that is really noticeable in a far field listening position, I haven't had someone perform the A/B/A/B/A/B grille on/off for me. There are some speakers that have the tweeter's output adjusted to account for the slight absorbtion of the high frequencies with the grilles on, and in those cases the manufacturer has stated that they were designed to operate with the grille on.
For me, I listen to all my speakers with the grille off for maximum clarity, although I have heard some speakers with "hot" tweeters that could benefit from two or three layers of grille cloth!
Steve
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Nice, thanks for posting these Dennis. What does one need to perform these types of FR measurements? Do you need an acoustically treated room of some kind?
No acoustically treated room, as Jim can verify after viewing my disaster area first hand. You just need a good measurement system (I use Praxis) that uses a very fast sweep signal and windows out room reflections.
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Such great answers thus far. Gotta love AC, huh? :thumb:
A couple of quick thoughts based on the previous posts...
How often is your system on and playing music? If it's "most of the time I can have it on", you're doing fine.
Does your system image well? That is, do you have a 'center channel' that isn't really there? Other channels, that aren't really there? If so, great. :thumb:
Put a grill on one speaker. Now listen. Does the image lean to one side now? If so, put a grill on the other speaker. Does the balanced image come back? Remove both grills. Which sounds better? Which image sounds better or worse? Go with the one you like best.
If grills don't change anything, who cares, right?
Gotta' love this hobby, huh? :D
Don't sweat the measurements. It's all about the music. :thumb:
Just my humble opinion,
Jerry
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cacophony777,
In case you haven't already realized it, just ignore werd. He's a troll. Just don't respond.
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A little background...
When we first began building speakers, we did not offer grills. We were interested in the best sound possible and grills did not seem to fit that scenario. So, when asked, the answer was simple: "We do not do grills."
But as time went on, we would receive requests from individuals who were insistent. Wanting to satisfy their needs, we embedded magnets in the baffles and created grills. But we did this only when "optional" grills were ordered.
This wasn't an ideal situation either in that we would occasionally receive a request for grills after speakers were delivered. In those cases, we did not embed magnets in the baffles so velcro or plastic grill stand-offs were the only option (and not a very attractive one).
So we decided whether or not customers ordered "optional" grills, we would embed magnets in all speakers...just in case.
When we introduced the SongTowers, however, almost every customer wanted grills. This was a departure from what we had experienced with our higher-priced models.
So we bit the bullet and decided that grills would be standard on all speakers from that point forward. But we also advised customers not to use them for critical listening and that is still our position today.
Personally, I don't use grills and never make them for my own personal speakers (although I do embed magnets for that purpose). On the other hand, I fully understand and appreciate WAF/SAF issues and feel it is important to pay attention to them.
About a year ago I received an email from a customer who had received his Veracity HT3's almost a year earlier. I could tell from the tone of the email he was quite excited. He loved his HT3's from the very start. But after a year of listening, he removed the grills and reported that the imaging was vastly superior without them. Removal of the grills took the his HT3's to the next level. It was like discovering his HT3's all over again. Talk about a cheap upgrade!
The bottom line is that use of the grills is optional. If you like the sound with them installed, no problem. If you prefer the sound without them, magnets make it easy to remove them for critical listening. So you really have the best of both worlds.
- Jim
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Personally, I do not like looking at drivers and suffer through grills because to me they make speakers look better. Also, young hands have a tendency to touch everything, and it's helpful not to worry (ok, worry less) about having a driver ruined by children.
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Personally, I do not like looking at drivers and suffer through grills because to me they make speakers look better. Also, young hands have a tendency to touch everything, and it's helpful not to worry (ok, worry less) about having a driver ruined by children.
Just one more reason I would like to see a -2dB - 0dB - +2dB tweeter switch on all loudspeakers.
Steve
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The most original and inventive use of a speaker grill was one I observed many years ago at a CES show in Chicago.
In the "dumps" section of the show, there was a company selling quite large bookshelf speakers at a really low price, maybe $39 a pair or so.
This seemed to be too good to be true so I took a closer look.
Through the speaker grill I could see a tweeter, a mid-range driver, and a big woofer. Wow, a three way speaker for this low price? What a deal!
Then I pulled the speaker grill off and just laughed. The big "woofer" was just a decal! A nice photo of a woofer pasted on the box. Just like the headlights on Nascar "stock cars".
This was a really good use of a speaker grill, the best I have found to date. :)
Best regards,
Frank Van Alstine
P.S. Be sure to get issue #204 of The Absolute Sound, in the mail tomorrow, there is a review in there by Dick Olsher of the SongTowers driven by an AVA Ultravalve vacuum tube amp that is the review to end all reviews.
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Back when grilles were not removable, particularly in pro audio and instrument speakers, shiny reflective woofer dustcaps visible through the cloth let you know you were in the presence of something very special !
Steve
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Just like the headlights on Nascar "stock cars".
Best regards,
Frank Van Alstine
now, now, be nice. :)
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^^^
next he's gonna tell us that professional wrestling is fake too... :lol:
fwiw, grills off on my existing speakers, and most certainly grills off on the ht2-tl's when they get here... and sound doesn't have anything really to do with it... it's aesthetics for me... i (and swmbo) like seeing the drivers/baffle...
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I have the HT2-TLs and SongTowers. The HT2 drivers are a thing of beauty, and I have a solid claro walnut baffle which is just amazing. So I like to leave the grilles off on this bad boy, but most times I have them on just cause I don't want grilles sitting around in random places.
My SongTowers have the standard baffle and the drivers themselves aren't that impressive looking, and so I leave them on. Quite honestly, I love the grilles Jim makes, nice sturdy cloth with magnets and the whole bit.
Is there a difference in sound? Perhaps a teeny bit if you were intently focused on looking for it, but I don't notice at all. Most times I'm doing something else when listening and so if I'm down a millionth of a dB at some frequency with the grilles it doesn't stand out to me.
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^^^
my grills aren't in random places... they are all stacked up in my shed... :wink:
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There were some speakers I had come across (was it Polk?) that let you attach the grilles to the rear of the speaker for storage. As long as there is available real estate on the rear without binding posts in the way (it would be okay if they covered a port), I think that's a great idea.
If I order a set of speakers from Jim in the future, and there is space on the rear, I would have him embed a set of neodymium magnets on the rear as well.
Steve
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Wow, thats actually a good idea. I don't see why this couldn't be done, the top 80% of my SongTowers are empty, the bottom 20% has the binding posts and the port. I'm sure it wouldn't be that pricey, unless those magnets are hella expensive.
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P.S. Be sure to get issue #204 of The Absolute Sound, in the mail tomorrow, there is a review in there by Dick Olsher of the SongTowers driven by an AVA Ultravalve vacuum tube amp that is the review to end all reviews.
Finally! I can't wait to read it...although I don't subscribe to that magazine, so I am sure I'll have to wait it out a bit longer.
There were some speakers I had come across (was it Polk?) that let you attach the grilles to the rear of the speaker for storage. As long as there is available real estate on the rear without binding posts in the way (it would be okay if they covered a port), I think that's a great idea.
If I order a set of speakers from Jim in the future, and there is space on the rear, I would have him embed a set of neodymium magnets on the rear as well.
Steve
Brilliant!